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UK Politics: The End of May


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56 minutes ago, mormont said:

To varying degrees. And some of those people recognise and address their unconscious biases: while a lot of damage is done by those who furiously deny them, and insist that their unconscious racial biases are objective facts about the world.

If you were to reflect more and argue less, you might even detect that happening quite close to home.

Or maybe people who repeatedly throw accusations of racism at people are simply projecting their own unconscious racism.. who knows

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50 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Or maybe people who repeatedly throw accusations of racism at people are simply projecting their own unconscious racism.. who knows

:lmao:

Right, the people calling Farage racist are the real racists. I'm sure the people who DESTROYED poor Roseanne Barr's life for months of deranged, bigoted, conspiracy-huffing tweets are also the real racists.

Holy shit dude.

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3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

:lmao:

Right, the people calling Farage racist are the real racists. I'm sure the people who DESTROYED poor Roseanne Barr's life for months of deranged, bigoted, conspiracy-huffing tweets are also the real racists.

Holy shit dude.

What are you talking about? 

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5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

If that's the case, then I fail to see how that strengthens the argument that racism is not a factor in wanting to "control immigration" (whatever that means).

Btw, would you please mind answering how exactly EU immigrations have negatively impacted British culture so far (other than simply by existing)?

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On 6/1/2019 at 11:45 AM, Heartofice said:

Not sure why you continue to use this 44 year figure so often. You know full well that the EU that Britain joined many years ago bares little resemblance to the one we are leaving now, and will be massively different in the future. 

Anyway I’ll skip most of your post as it just you not really saying anything and just attempting humour and bad faith arguments.

Ah, so you are unable to come up with any rebuttals based on facts, logic and evidence and have conceded those points in full?

Excellent.

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Culture and traditions are fluid, that is correct. They change over time. It’s not a coincidence that curry has become a national dish. But at the same time that doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as a national identity, set of values, history and tradition that most people are proud of. For a lot of Brits it might a lot of things, maybe it’s fish and chips, maybe it’s a Sunday roast, curry, maybe it’s an obsession with talking about the weather, politeness, saying sorry, maybe it’s a football team, maybe it’s a sense of location, family history, their accent, the way they dress, what they do on the weekend. I don’t know, it could be a lot of things. We know one of the most common factors amongst Brexit voters was that they valued their sense of place , their national identity and traditions and we know those things are less valued amongst remain voters.

Well, since they are apparently unable to articulate what those "national identities" and "traditions", I think we can dismiss this as nonsense.

You've also repeated the laughably untrue fallacy that "Brexiters are more patriotic than Remainers" which is unmitigated horseshit. Remainers don't want to weaken and damage the country's economy, strength and its global reputation and plunge us into (at best) the second tier of also-ran countries in global power and influence for no worthwhile reason. Why Brexiters think they are "more patriotic" than Remainers for wanting to weaken and humiliate this country remains a mystery.

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Lots of Brits are not comfortable with the amount of change happening in the country, and there has been a large change. Over ten years the foreign born population of the UK almost doubled. We do have problems with integrating new people and we have plenty of ghettos where communities simply do not mix .That’s not healthy.

Sorry, I can't quite hear you above the sounds of Spanish people roaring with laughter at the rank hypocrisy of this statement.

I'd also like to see some kind of evidence on specifically people from the EU who are not integrating, not learning the language and living in ghettos, because it is nonsense. I have heard Brexiters make this argument, but confusingly about British-born Muslims who are completely and wholly unaffected by Brexit, and indeed, post-Brexit the UK will have to seek much greater levels of immigration from outside the EU, including in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and India, to compensate and those countries have made it clear that much easier visa requirements will be the price of free trade deals.

So again, it needs to be explained why the immigration of mostly white, mostly Christian or secular immigrants is apparently a major concern when Brexit will lead inevitably to much greater immigration of mostly non-white, non-Christian/secular immigrations from other parts of the world.

The answer of course is that many Brexiters believed and still believe that Brexit will mean an massive reduction in all immigration to the UK, which of course is nonsense, and post-Brexit we will see an interesting pivot from the Brexit Party and UKIP towards reducing immigration to the UK from these other, decidedly browner countries, but it won't be about racism of course.

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So yeah, immigration and integration is a form of cultural exchange, with both sides taking bits from each other. You at least need to give the sense that is happening but that is difficult if things happen too quickly, if whole areas change within a few years. You make the issue worse by telling Brits that their culture has no value, that their national identity that they base a lot of their sense of community and worth on means nothing.

Well, if they can't define it, what is it worth?

The fact is that British culture has changed much faster from progressive social change, the ideology of austerity and the advent of new technology far than it has from immigration from Eastern Europe in the last ten years, the impact of which (especially on many of the Brexit-voting rural areas) appears to be mostly negligible in comparison.

I'm looking forwards to Brexit voters who've lost their jobs to automation going into job centres being told they now have to work in an Amazon sweatshop or go fruit-picking on a farm fifty miles away because their traditional workers have all fucked off, or lose all their money. That's going to go down well.

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:20 PM, Heartofice said:

Everyone is unconsciously racist so I’m  ot sure what you are getting at.

I’ve often thought that racists say/believe this to mitigate their own. I can say with complete honesty that if I’ve ever had a racist thought in my life I’m unaware of it. No credit to me; no one in my family was racist, I had no racist thinking to overcome. My friends as a child were very multicultural because my parents friends were likewise. I was named after a black man. Racism confuses me so much that my gut instinct when encountering real-life racism is to assume it’s ironic for a few seconds before getting that ‘no, remember, people actually do think like this’. I was super confused by the criteria as a child becoming aware it existed...why not hair colour, or eye colour, or height, or w/e? 

So, no, I don’t believe everyone is racist. I think it would be convenient for racists to think so, though. 

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3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I’ve often thought that racists say/believe this to mitigate their own. I can say with complete honesty that if I’ve ever had a racist thought in my life I’m unaware of it. No credit to me; no one in my family was racist, I had no racist thinking to overcome. My friends as a child were very multicultural because my parents friends were likewise. I was named after a black man. Racism confuses me so much that my gut instinct when encountering real-life racism is to assume it’s ironic for a few seconds before getting that ‘no, remember, people actually do think like this’. I was super confused by the criteria as a child becoming aware it existed...why not hair colour, or eye colour, or height, or w/e? 

So, no, I don’t believe everyone is racist. I think it would be convenient for racists to think so, though. 

Systemic racism affects everyone, even when you dont see it in your self, you still go to school, watch tv and read books, thats the thing with systemic racisim, you are going to be affected by it, one way or another. 

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2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

But you can have internalized racisim, and if you live in a society (like the US), where racism is so sistemic and internalized by its people, then i think you dont have much of a choice, but to be consious of it, and try to be aware of it so you can fight it and correct it. 

Well if you do that then you're not really subconsciously racist, are you?

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33 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Well if you do that then you're not really subconsciously racist, are you?

No, you still are, you are just paying attwntion to your blind spots and uncunsious . Saying that you have never had a racist thought is being ignorant of the racist socialisation that you are subjected to.

If you are aware of that, you can deconstruct how you where tought and fight your unconscious bias

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19 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

The answer of course is that many Brexiters believed and still believe that Brexit will mean an massive reduction in all immigration to the UK, which of course is nonsense, and post-Brexit we will see an interesting pivot from the Brexit Party and UKIP towards reducing immigration to the UK from these other, decidedly browner countries, but it won't be about racism of course.

I wonder if a poll was conducted asking Pro-Brexiters if they’d still support leaving even if it doesn’t lead to a reduction of immigrants  from these countries how many would say no. 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I wonder if a poll was conducted asking Pro-Brexiters if they’d still support leaving even if it doesn’t lead to a reduction of immigrants  from these countries how many would say no. 

change that to a poll of  Increased immigration from these countries.  ;)    might be more accurate as to what will really happen.

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Another consequence of Brexit that was oddly not painted on the side of a bus: the USA will want access to the NHS as part of a free trade deal because, y'know, the US is so fantastic at healthcare provision.

It'll be interesting to see when Brexiters realise that they've not only been sold down the river, but they're going to be charged to use the river in the first place.

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On 6/1/2019 at 6:24 AM, Heartofice said:

I'm not sure you want to start using examples from history to back up your argument. Saxons coming over and wiping out the native born population, or the romans and normans subjugating the natives isn't something you want to be using as a positive example of immigration.

The Anglo-Saxons did NOT "wipe out" the native born population. Genetic research disproved that idea several years ago. 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530134-300-ancient-invaders-transformed-britain-but-not-its-dna/

 

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43 minutes ago, Ormond said:

The Anglo-Saxons did NOT "wipe out" the native born population. Genetic research disproved that idea several years ago. 

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22530134-300-ancient-invaders-transformed-britain-but-not-its-dna/

 

I can honestly say that this thread is the first time I've even heard of that myth - of course it's complete bullshit.
We've never been "invaded" by a "genocidal" force. The neolithic farmers may have impacted native population numbers, but way more likely the knowledge was ipmorted, rather than all that many people; and even if it was people, it would have been outcompeting rather than killing - same goes for the arrival of metalworkers. After that the Saxons and vikings largely lived alongside the natives, the Romans and Normans simply took over the aristocracy, largely leaving the peasants alone. Local areas will have suffered genocidal bouts, but nothing national.

We are, by far and away, exporters of genocides; not sufferers.

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Jacob Rees-Mogg repeatedly saying that Trump is, "the democratically elected President of the United States," embarrassingly. Trump is, of course, the legally elected President of the US, but very much undemocratically-elected, given the unusual quirks of the US system. You'd expect him to have known that, of course.

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JRM was just trying to grease his way into Trump's notice, alongside his mates Boris and Nigel.

He wants to rub shoulders, boost his profile and profits, and ease his escape route for when Brexit goes tits up.

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