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Stannis Eats No Peaches

UK Politics: The End of May

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I'd say the increasing accumulation of wealth at the top and the shrinking margins for the middle class probably have a lot to do with people's anxiety as well, but the oligarchs' ability to convincing the stupid and uninformed to blame immigrants and other marginalized communities is the wellspring of right wing political power and the reason for the populist surge around the world.

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Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

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35 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

Unfortunately the economic hit cannot only be confined to those people 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

Not the first time I've read this. I'd be curious to read the wording in the polls that suggested this. My suspicion is that if you ask them in abstract terms then they'll say they're willing to take an economic hit in order to reduce immigration (e.g. reduce GDP growth by 1%, or something like that). But they might not be so enthusiastic if you ask if they would personally give up their jobs and accept a significantly harder time in finding another one, with lower wages even if they are successful.

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1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

Unfortunately the economic hit cannot only be confined to those people 

I'd love to see that challenged, 'our company is less successful and we have to lay some people off, you were mouthy as fuck on Facebook about being pro Brexit, see you later'. 

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20 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Everyone is unconsciously racist so I’m  ot sure what you are getting at.

To varying degrees. And some of those people recognise and address their unconscious biases: while a lot of damage is done by those who furiously deny them, and insist that their unconscious racial biases are objective facts about the world.

If you were to reflect more and argue less, you might even detect that happening quite close to home.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

So I guess Brexit really was about vague and poorly defined sentiments about "tradition" and "culture" that definitely aren't adjacent to racism and xenophobia. Here's a phrase you might want to try out to defend your ideological bent in the future: "Heritage, not hate!"

But if I generously accept your so far unsupported assertion that economic concerns are not a big deal, why did Boris et al feel compelled to lie so often about what the UK pays in to the EU then?

 

Edited by DanteGabriel

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56 minutes ago, mormont said:

To varying degrees. And some of those people recognise and address their unconscious biases: while a lot of damage is done by those who furiously deny them, and insist that their unconscious racial biases are objective facts about the world.

If you were to reflect more and argue less, you might even detect that happening quite close to home.

Or maybe people who repeatedly throw accusations of racism at people are simply projecting their own unconscious racism.. who knows

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50 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Or maybe people who repeatedly throw accusations of racism at people are simply projecting their own unconscious racism.. who knows

:lmao:

Right, the people calling Farage racist are the real racists. I'm sure the people who DESTROYED poor Roseanne Barr's life for months of deranged, bigoted, conspiracy-huffing tweets are also the real racists.

Holy shit dude.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

:lmao:

Right, the people calling Farage racist are the real racists. I'm sure the people who DESTROYED poor Roseanne Barr's life for months of deranged, bigoted, conspiracy-huffing tweets are also the real racists.

Holy shit dude.

What are you talking about? 

Edited by Heartofice

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Most polling suggests the people are less concerned about economics than you think. In fact people would be happy to take an economic hit to be able to control immigration 

If that's the case, then I fail to see how that strengthens the argument that racism is not a factor in wanting to "control immigration" (whatever that means).

Btw, would you please mind answering how exactly EU immigrations have negatively impacted British culture so far (other than simply by existing)?

Edited by Ser Reptitious

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13 hours ago, Heartofice said:

What are you talking about? 

You do remember expressing displeasure at Roseanne being called racist and ostracized  for calling a black woman half a chimp? 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2019 at 11:45 AM, Heartofice said:

Not sure why you continue to use this 44 year figure so often. You know full well that the EU that Britain joined many years ago bares little resemblance to the one we are leaving now, and will be massively different in the future. 

Anyway I’ll skip most of your post as it just you not really saying anything and just attempting humour and bad faith arguments.

Ah, so you are unable to come up with any rebuttals based on facts, logic and evidence and have conceded those points in full?

Excellent.

Quote

Culture and traditions are fluid, that is correct. They change over time. It’s not a coincidence that curry has become a national dish. But at the same time that doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as a national identity, set of values, history and tradition that most people are proud of. For a lot of Brits it might a lot of things, maybe it’s fish and chips, maybe it’s a Sunday roast, curry, maybe it’s an obsession with talking about the weather, politeness, saying sorry, maybe it’s a football team, maybe it’s a sense of location, family history, their accent, the way they dress, what they do on the weekend. I don’t know, it could be a lot of things. We know one of the most common factors amongst Brexit voters was that they valued their sense of place , their national identity and traditions and we know those things are less valued amongst remain voters.

Well, since they are apparently unable to articulate what those "national identities" and "traditions", I think we can dismiss this as nonsense.

You've also repeated the laughably untrue fallacy that "Brexiters are more patriotic than Remainers" which is unmitigated horseshit. Remainers don't want to weaken and damage the country's economy, strength and its global reputation and plunge us into (at best) the second tier of also-ran countries in global power and influence for no worthwhile reason. Why Brexiters think they are "more patriotic" than Remainers for wanting to weaken and humiliate this country remains a mystery.

Quote

Lots of Brits are not comfortable with the amount of change happening in the country, and there has been a large change. Over ten years the foreign born population of the UK almost doubled. We do have problems with integrating new people and we have plenty of ghettos where communities simply do not mix .That’s not healthy.

Sorry, I can't quite hear you above the sounds of Spanish people roaring with laughter at the rank hypocrisy of this statement.

I'd also like to see some kind of evidence on specifically people from the EU who are not integrating, not learning the language and living in ghettos, because it is nonsense. I have heard Brexiters make this argument, but confusingly about British-born Muslims who are completely and wholly unaffected by Brexit, and indeed, post-Brexit the UK will have to seek much greater levels of immigration from outside the EU, including in countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and India, to compensate and those countries have made it clear that much easier visa requirements will be the price of free trade deals.

So again, it needs to be explained why the immigration of mostly white, mostly Christian or secular immigrants is apparently a major concern when Brexit will lead inevitably to much greater immigration of mostly non-white, non-Christian/secular immigrations from other parts of the world.

The answer of course is that many Brexiters believed and still believe that Brexit will mean an massive reduction in all immigration to the UK, which of course is nonsense, and post-Brexit we will see an interesting pivot from the Brexit Party and UKIP towards reducing immigration to the UK from these other, decidedly browner countries, but it won't be about racism of course.

Quote

So yeah, immigration and integration is a form of cultural exchange, with both sides taking bits from each other. You at least need to give the sense that is happening but that is difficult if things happen too quickly, if whole areas change within a few years. You make the issue worse by telling Brits that their culture has no value, that their national identity that they base a lot of their sense of community and worth on means nothing.

Well, if they can't define it, what is it worth?

The fact is that British culture has changed much faster from progressive social change, the ideology of austerity and the advent of new technology far than it has from immigration from Eastern Europe in the last ten years, the impact of which (especially on many of the Brexit-voting rural areas) appears to be mostly negligible in comparison.

I'm looking forwards to Brexit voters who've lost their jobs to automation going into job centres being told they now have to work in an Amazon sweatshop or go fruit-picking on a farm fifty miles away because their traditional workers have all fucked off, or lose all their money. That's going to go down well.

Edited by Werthead

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On 5/31/2019 at 5:20 PM, Heartofice said:

Everyone is unconsciously racist so I’m  ot sure what you are getting at.

I’ve often thought that racists say/believe this to mitigate their own. I can say with complete honesty that if I’ve ever had a racist thought in my life I’m unaware of it. No credit to me; no one in my family was racist, I had no racist thinking to overcome. My friends as a child were very multicultural because my parents friends were likewise. I was named after a black man. Racism confuses me so much that my gut instinct when encountering real-life racism is to assume it’s ironic for a few seconds before getting that ‘no, remember, people actually do think like this’. I was super confused by the criteria as a child becoming aware it existed...why not hair colour, or eye colour, or height, or w/e? 

So, no, I don’t believe everyone is racist. I think it would be convenient for racists to think so, though. 

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3 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I’ve often thought that racists say/believe this to mitigate their own. I can say with complete honesty that if I’ve ever had a racist thought in my life I’m unaware of it. No credit to me; no one in my family was racist, I had no racist thinking to overcome. My friends as a child were very multicultural because my parents friends were likewise. I was named after a black man. Racism confuses me so much that my gut instinct when encountering real-life racism is to assume it’s ironic for a few seconds before getting that ‘no, remember, people actually do think like this’. I was super confused by the criteria as a child becoming aware it existed...why not hair colour, or eye colour, or height, or w/e? 

So, no, I don’t believe everyone is racist. I think it would be convenient for racists to think so, though. 

Systemic racism affects everyone, even when you dont see it in your self, you still go to school, watch tv and read books, thats the thing with systemic racisim, you are going to be affected by it, one way or another. 

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Systemic racism =/= unconsious racism

 

One of exists whether we like it or not, because external systems exist.

The the other is an internal bias that is actually held by an individual.

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But you can have internalized racisim, and if you live in a society (like the US), where racism is so sistemic and internalized by its people, then i think you dont have much of a choice, but to be consious of it, and try to be aware of it so you can fight it and correct it. 

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2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

But you can have internalized racisim, and if you live in a society (like the US), where racism is so sistemic and internalized by its people, then i think you dont have much of a choice, but to be consious of it, and try to be aware of it so you can fight it and correct it. 

Well if you do that then you're not really subconsciously racist, are you?

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33 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Well if you do that then you're not really subconsciously racist, are you?

No, you still are, you are just paying attwntion to your blind spots and uncunsious . Saying that you have never had a racist thought is being ignorant of the racist socialisation that you are subjected to.

If you are aware of that, you can deconstruct how you where tought and fight your unconscious bias

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