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Moral of each characters story?

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Just wondering what you would say was the moral and what did message each character arc and story was hope to tell us?

And serious replies please, no jokes

I got a good one for arya I think

Arya - Theres more to life than vengeance, sometimes people will get punished themself for their bad actions, its not your place to take revenge, it will only consume you, instead focus on the things in life you love doing and live.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, a_song_of_ice_and_fire said:

Just wondering what you would say was the moral and what did message each character arc and story was hope to tell us?

And serious replies please, no jokes

I got a good one for arya I think

Arya - Theres more to life than vengeance, sometimes people will get punished themself for their bad actions, its not your place to take revenge, it will only consume you, instead focus on the things in life you love doing and live.

If done properly, Arya's arc would be that she experienced self realization through of a tragedy that forced her to see who she truly was. Then she'd have the choice to change or stay the same. Not because the Hound told her a life lesson.

 

Edited by tallTale

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Posted (edited)

Dany Option A (basically what the show presented) - Don't be born with a genetic defect that potentially makes you go randomly "mad" and enjoy burning people alive. 
Dany Option B (what they were trying for but bungled) - If you focus too much on 1 goal which you believe you're entitled to (the Iron Throne), and you work to achieve this at all costs, then you are at great rusj to lose yourself, your values, your morals (helping innocents, empowering those without power, being a good person, etc). 

Jon - First, everyone has a choice of "Duty versus Love" and that duty can bring a better world, but it comes at a cost. This is also an inverse of Robb's choice (who, in the show, chose "Love" over duty and caused not only death but also an arguably worse more painful world). Second, I think he's supposed to represent the concept that humanity and compromise are more virtuous than loyalty and tribalism...he is one who shows us that regardless of race, nationality, previous conflicts, etc, that there is still value in accepting differences and banding together for a greater purpose. 

Sansa - I'm not really sure I ever understood what Sansa's character was trying to tell us. I will just say I didn't like the S8E4 convo w/ the Hound, where she indicated that she was grateful for the abuse & rape she experienced because they led to her growth. 

Jaime - Indifference and/or allowing ourselves to be guided by those we love is a risking proposition and can take us down dark paths. And then even if we realize this and try to better ourselves, it isn't that easy. Try as we might, the backslide is always a possibility. Those who we choose to love with all our hearts will be intertwined with our lives, for better or worse. 

Tyrion - Ugh. Tyrion was a smart guy who was constantly beat down due to his appearance and for no other reason. So, is the moral to not be born a dwarf? Don't be born ugly? I don't know. The other thing is, while we all love his character, he's still very gray. He's not good or bad. He tried to help the rulers he served, true. But he also murdered his father. Let me repeat that, he MURDERED HIS FATHER. And then he went to serve Dany, but was constantly in conflict of serving his queen vs helping his own family. Not to mention he gives terrible advice to Dany about 100 times. And then at the end he's rewarded with his favorite job? Maybe the moral is that if people like you then it doesn't matter if you commit evil acts or that you're bad at your job, you'll still get promoted at work and things will work out for you? 

Cersei - Plenty of cautionary messages...don't hate your little brother because of his looks! If you're married, committing incestual adultery may be bad/problematic! Don't try to manipulate your children for your own means! Being a terrible ruler will lead to usurption! Give up when you're threatened by dragons!

Bran - If you know a ton of useful information that could be incredibly helpful to your family and friends, do NOT tell them anything and just wait a while, eventually you'll be rewarded by being named king! 

I will shutup now and wait to hear what other people have to say. 

 

 

Edited by WeDoNotKneel_HailMance

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, tallTale said:

If done properly, Arya's arc would be that she experienced moral change because of a tragedy that forced her to see who she truly was. Then she'd have the choice to change or stay the same. Not because the Hound told her a life lesson.

  

Arya's traumas and subsequent journey turned her into a selfish murderous psychopath who was cheered with every act of violence. Revengeful violence - its not like she brought Walder Frey to face justice and be judged by trial, or even that she sentenced him to death to his face and then cut his head off. She baked his children into a pie and murdered ALL the Freys... this should horrify us, but instead the show presents it as triumph. You say that she learned "Its not your place to take revenge, it will only consume you" however, that's really not what was presented to us. She got revenge on everyone she wanted to get revenge on (except Cersei who died anyways), and there are zero consequences for this revenge. As tallTale mentions,  it would have been satisfying to see her experience moral change as a result of tragedy...but that tragedy never happens. Also, in S7-S8 she weirdly had a family loyalists view (pack survives, lone wolf dies) for a brief time but then later abandons everyone to become a sailor.

Honestly, the show message about Arya is that she's an awesome power girl badass and that revenge is really rewarding, but I find this horrifying, because she appears to be an extremely troubled person as a result of trauma, and we're told her violence is an effective path to overcoming her trauma  & achieving greatness. To me, its a disgusting message. 

Edited by WeDoNotKneel_HailMance

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14 minutes ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

Arya's traumas and subsequent journey turned her into a selfish murderous psychopath who was cheered with every act of violence. Revengeful violence - its not like she brought Walder Frey to face justice and be judged by trial, or even that she sentenced him to death to his face and then cut his head off. She baked his children into a pie and murdered ALL the Freys... this should horrify us, but instead the show presents it as triumph. You say that she learned "Its not your place to take revenge, it will only consume you" however, that's really not what was presented to us. She got revenge on everyone she wanted to get revenge on (except Cersei who died anyways), and there are zero consequences for this revenge. As tallTale mentions,  it would have been satisfying to see her experience moral change as a result of tragedy...but that tragedy never happens. Also, in S7-S8 she weirdly had a family loyalists view (pack survives, lone wolf dies) for a brief time but then later abandons everyone to become a sailor. Honestly, the show message about Arya is that she's an awesome power girl badass and that revenge is really rewarding, but I find this horrifying, because she appears to be an extremely troubled person as a result of trauma, and we're told her violence is an effective path to overcoming her trauma  & achieving greatness. To me, its a disgusting message. 

Agreed.

Maybe it's just the way I saw it. 

And I was one of the bloodthirsty idiots cheering her on because Stark ftw.

Her father would be horrified if he'd seen what she became. 

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Dany - entitlement and dragons do not make you powerful - she went cray, cray at the end because she felt powerless (I hold to that, even if D&Ds telling was pretty average).

Jon - sometimes you have to bend the rules and your own morals for the greater good (and to get your dog back).

Tyrion - even when you fuck up, if you have a disposition for something, you have to keep doing it.

Brienne - you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need... oh yea

Or Meatloaf - Brienne's moral outcome has been recorded in multiple songs

Jamie - even if you fail to redeem yourself fully in life, your good deeds will be remembered (He was the nicest and most obvious of all of them, I found Brienne writing in his book was like perfect bittersweet - posthumous redemption - my favorite part of the stories resolution).

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Good people get stabbed in the back. No matter how much good you do you'll end up betrayed if it means other ppl can get their greedy little hands on their piece of the pie...and your piece of the pie.

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Dany: If you're a woman in power and the men around you can't control you, they will try to destroy.  As an extension of that don't ever get frustrated and lose your temper, that's a death sentence.

Jon:  It doesn't matter if you're a good person who has the best in mind if you are too weak to fight for it and unable to convince those around you.  Also those around you will try to manipulate you to abandon your values for theirs, so hopefully you're smart enough to realize that.

Sansa:  The only way to defeat your enemies is to become just like them.

Bran:  Those who do the least get the most rewards.

Arya:  It doesn't matter if you become a cold hearted killer you can always go back to when you were innocent and simply craved for adventure.

Tyrion:  It doesn't matter if you are a spiteful person you can still become the moral compass that your friends rely on.

Cersei:  Don't blame your sex (or race, or whatever) for why no one respects you.  Use some introspection and realize that it's because you're an idiot that no one respects you.

Brienne:  If you're a woman who wants to get into a male dominated field, know that it is possible.  You just have to be 100 times better than the competition and also make the right kind of friends.

Jaime:  Stay the hell away from toxic relationships, they are super hard to escape from once you're in too deep.

I'm sorry I tried to do the no joke answers but I do feel like these are the kind of morals their arcs presented.

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37 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

Dany: If you're a woman in power and the men around you can't control you, they will try to destroy.  As an extension of that don't ever get frustrated and lose your temper, that's a death sentence.

 Jon:  It doesn't matter if you're a good person who has the best in mind if you are too weak to fight for it and unable to convince those around you.  Also those around you will try to manipulate you to abandon your values for theirs, so hopefully you're smart enough to realize that.

 Sansa:  The only way to defeat your enemies is to become just like them.

Bran:  Those who do the least get the most rewards.

Arya:  It doesn't matter if you become a cold hearted killer you can always go back to when you were innocent and simply craved for adventure.

Tyrion:  It doesn't matter if you are a spiteful person you can still become the moral compass that your friends rely on.

Cersei:  Don't blame your sex (or race, or whatever) for why no one respects you.  Use some introspection and realize that it's because you're an idiot that no one respects you.

Brienne:  If you're a woman who wants to get into a male dominated field, know that it is possible.  You just have to be 100 times better than the competition and also make the right kind of friends.

Jaime:  Stay the hell away from toxic relationships, they are super hard to escape from once you're in too deep.

I'm sorry I tried to do the no joke answers but I do feel like these are the kind of morals their arcs presented.

Yes. these are all gold and better than my own analysis. And agree this isn't parody or sarcasm, this is really what the show gave us. 

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43 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

Brienne:  If you're a woman who wants to get into a male dominated field, know that it is possible.  You just have to be 100 times better than the competition and also make the right kind of friends.

Word.

And I would add know you will still be considered a joke by majority of the people you meet  (and dont) despite of being 1000 times better than all of them.

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Don't deal in absolutes.  Those who are most certain they have the right answers for everyone are those most willing to commit the greatest atrocities "for" those people.  Aside from Ramsey Bolton and possible Ned Stark as we are given him in the time period of the show and books we are given characters who are all some shade of grey.  Even Ned raises Jon on a lie, hides him from his best friend, and lets the story of defeating Arthur Dayne circulate.  

When you do decide to demand that you are right, even when you are, from a position of positional authority don't be surprised if those closest to you stab you in the back.  Be it the kid you were trying to help in Ollie taking part in a mutiny and stabs you in the back, the person you take to be your closest adviser and only family / love stabs you in the back, or your own sworn Kings Guard.  

And if you are going to deal in absolutes except your evil (IE Bolton) and kill anyone getting close to you that has a knife like Osha.  

 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, RFL said:

the person you take to be your closest adviser and only family / love stabs you in the back, or your own sworn Kings Guard.  

I like your overall take on the entire sagas moral message - I thought it was enforced change is dangerous/destablizing but not dealing in absolutes walks hand in hand and fits even better.

re the highlighted point - it was an obvious and oft repeated part of the books and show - the things we love destroy us. Getting close to people is dangerous - I think this is a part of how GRRM writes and many people view it as nihilistic because they think that life is all about the relationships they have with other humans but that is only a part of life. I think this is also part of GRRMs philosophy - yea humans, by and large, are bad for each other but that doesn't mean there are not things out there to be happy about.

Edited by ummester

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15 hours ago, Techmaester said:

Danys lesson: don't trust short men.

Alright, no jokes? Danys lesson: don't give unearned love.

If you've just conquered a city, make sure you're surrounded by bodyguards.

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Okay hmmm

 

Dany: Don't let your goals blind you from everything around you; a sense of entitlement does not a good ruler make

Jon: Blindly following your heart is just as dangerous as not listening to it at all

Bran: honestly no clue dude is basically a tree god

Arya: Vengeance will not make you whole; there is more to life than vengeance

Sansa: You can still be strong and be traditionally feminine; strength does not necessarily mean fighting or wielding a sword

Jaime: Leaving an abuser isn't just as simple as it sounds

Tyrion: Don't be blinded by your own intelligence

Ned: Honor for honor's sake can get you killed

Cersei: Similar to Tyrion except for it's more 'don't be blinded by your perceived ego and intelligence'

Stannis: If you're willing to do anything for power, you don't deserve said power

Theon: Your family is not necessarily your blood kin 

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21 hours ago, WeDoNotKneel_HailMance said:

Arya's traumas and subsequent journey turned her into a selfish murderous psychopath who was cheered with every act of violence. Revengeful violence - its not like she brought Walder Frey to face justice and be judged by trial, or even that she sentenced him to death to his face and then cut his head off. She baked his children into a pie and murdered ALL the Freys... this should horrify us, but instead the show presents it as triumph.

The story of Walder Frey was really that of the Rat Cook, who because of the Red Wedding was guilty of violating guest right, the sacred laws of hospitality. The gods, angry with this terrible crime, turned him into a rat and forced him to eat his own young.

If you look at how the Freys were portrayed visually, you'll see how much like rodents their faces were meant to appear.

That's why this all happened.

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The main character of the story, told from the POV of many characters, is the wheel itself.

The moral:  The wheel never fully stops turning.  

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Honor is dumb and gets you killed:  Ned, Robb, Jon

Revenge is sweet:  Arya, Hound, Cersei

People don't change their circumstances or selves:  Jamie, Cersei, Jon, Dany, Arya

Become like your enemy:  Sansa, Dany

Obsession is bad:  Dany, Hound, Tywin, Cersei

There is no justice:  everyone

Falling up works if you're already up there:  Tyrion

 

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Astapor and the Children of the Forest:  If you are going to create remarkable weapons you REALLY need to have a "self destruct" system installed that you control  

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