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Was Sansa aiming for Jon?

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Posted (edited)

I suppose Sansa was right in her assessment of Dany but it still aggravates me the icy cold reception they gave Dany when she arrived at Winterfell.  It appears all the Northerners would have shown more interest about her time in Essos and the birth of her dragons.  No curiosity at all?  This brings me back to Bran.  Was he like Dr. Strange and could see all the possible outcomes and was manipulating everyone to achieve the desired end?   Bran as the ruler is so unsatisfying because we really can’t get into his head and see his true POV. 

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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9 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

I suppose Sansa was right in her assessment of Dany but it still aggravates me the icy cold reception they gave Dany when she arrived at Winterfell.  It appears all the Northerners would have shown more interest about her time in Essos and the birth of her dragons.  No curiosity at all?  This brings me back to Bran.  Was he like Dr. Strange and could see all the possible outcomes and was manipulating everyone to achieve the desired end?   Bran as the ruler is so unsatisfying because we really can’t get into his head and see his true POV. 

Northerners are insular shits. 

Deeply set in their ways and traditions.

After decades of the collective memory of the Mad King's rule, Rhaegar's taking of Lyanna and the horrors of war?

Daenerys should've kept her 'I will rule' mentality aside and started a very serious PR campaign before arrival.

Her turn as liberator in Essos gave her a wrong idea that somehow people would welcome her.

Varys' inability or unwillingness to revert the narrative and control the 'foreign whore' spin that cost Daenerys the Reach could be either incompetence or a sign he never intended to seriously back her, I guess.

It would have been even harder to convince the North.

Dragons are unholy, dangerous monsters to them. And her slave army and dothraki screamers? 

I didn't like that they were made to look like prejudiced brutes, but isolated populations in difficult conditions tend to be distrustful of new arrivals.

Daenerys was portrayed as a naive child. Muah, I will save them and they will love me.

Jon's rejoinder of 'when they know you' was even more moronic.

Claimed motivations would not change the fact that she had power and they, the North, had no margin to bargain with her.

The imbalance of power shifted 'alliance' to 'submission'.

Someone like Sansa in the show, who became a savy political maneuverer at the knee of the likes of LF? She would never accept those conditions.

But mostly they are just insular, stubborn shits. The North is the North, fuck the rest, wether it comes from the South or the East.

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1 hour ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Varys' inability or unwillingness to revert the narrative and control the 'foreign whore' spin that cost Daenerys the Reach could be either incompetence or a sign he never intended to seriously back her, I guess.

Or D&D simply can't write characters like Varys or Little Finger (and even Tyrion) because being smart is not what any writer on GoT is.

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2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Or D&D simply can't write characters like Varys or Little Finger (and even Tyrion) because being smart is not what any writer on GoT is.

It sure made everything more linear.

I thought their word of the day was 'subvert'?

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On the topic of how Northerners react to foreigners?

If Greywind took a couple fingers fromthe Greatjon, what would Drogon do when he opened his big mouth and let rip about the Mad King's daughter?

Methinks Umber would not pass the sniff test.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

On the topic of how Northerners react to foreigners?

The North was its own kingdom for 8,000 years. Do you really think they're going to forget that in a few hundred? 

If you believe that, I suggest you look at the case of the Irish.

Or the Scottish.

Or Gibraltar.

Or Ceuta and Melilla.

Or Olivenza/Olivença, where they would be quick to tell you that it’s spelt Magalhães not Magalhaes, as the latter is a spelling mistake. :)

Furthermore, what’s the problem with the North having its own traditions? Every region does, every people. The quickest way to insult people is to tell them that their long-held traditions are crap.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

The North was its own kingdom for 8,000 years. Do you really think they're going to forget that in a few hundred? 

If you believe that, I suggest you look at the case of the Irish.

Or the Scottish.

Or Gibraltar.

Or Ceuta and Melilla.

Or Olivenza/Olivença, where they would be quick to tell you that it’s spelt Magalhães not Magalhaes, as the latter is a spelling mistake. :)

I'm Portuguese. Just used to compensate for a shitty spell app and the hateful disregard for accentuation in anglosaxon tech.  

I didn't make myself clear. 

The point is, for the North, anything south of the Neck is 'not us'.

Actually, I live a stone's throw from Olivença. You don't need to tell me about the sentiment to an invader slash occupying force.

High School history teaches us about a period of time, three Phillips' worth, they called us Spanish.

But we weren't.

 

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1 minute ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I'm Portuguese. Just used to compensate for a shitty spell app and the hateful disregard for accentuation in anglosaxon tech.  

I didn't make myself clear. 

The point is, for the North, anything south of the Neck is 'not us'.

Actually, I live a stone's throw from Olivença. You don't need to tell me about the sentiment to an invader slash occupying force.

High School history teaches us about a period of time, three Phillips' worth, they called us Spanish.

But we weren't.

Then you are lucky, for you are one of the few here with the cultural background to understand how the North feels about having had their crown taken from them by a foreign invader.

Did you forget that you weren't Spanish after three Phillips? No.

Have you by now forgotten that occupation when they told you a lie? No.

The North remembers. The losers in a conflict that results in an occupying force always remember far longer than the winners.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Then you are lucky, for you are one of the few here with the cultural background to understand how the North feels about having had their crown taken from them by a foreign invader.

Did you forget that you weren't Spanish after three Phillips? No.

Have you by now forgotten that occupation when they told you a lie? No.

The North remembers. The losers in a conflict that results in an occupying force always remember far longer than the winners.

I also have the background to go cross eyed at the mockery slash amalgamation that was the hitleresque presentation, whiff of socialist rethoric with hint of Robespierre by an absolutist monarch on a post apocalyptic nuclear scenario.

Sorry if it's the wrong thread for this, but it offended me personally that they so clumsily put that forth.

They don't have the subtletly or respect to comment on how totalitarism is the same no matter the political or phylosophical juatification couching it.

We've had a fascist dictatorship, an attempt at imposing pure proletariat socialism, scores of kings and queens from insane to hapless, we even got to be 'spanish' and rode through with french imperial troops. 

Screw them and their lack of tact.

Edited by It_spelt_Magalhaes

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5 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I also have the background to go cross eyed at the mockery slash amalgamation that was the hitleresque presentation, whiff of socialist rethoric with hint of Robespierre by an absolutist monarch on a post apocalyptic nuclear scenario.

No kidding. But what do you really expect of American screenwriters? :)

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38 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

 

Did you forget that you weren't Spanish after three Phillips? No.

Funny fact?

Portugal exists because our forefathers, our first King, actually, didn't want to be Spanish.

He had issues with his widowed mother's lover.  

Oops?

 

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18 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Funny fact?

Portugal exists because our forefathers, our first King, actually, didn't want to be Spanish.

He had issues with his widowed mother's lover.  

Oops?

 

Or more specifically because "Spanish" is a modern idea, that he didn't want to be Leonese, or Castilian even as at times León and Castilla were distinct kingdoms but at other times were merged. And then there's Galicia. 

The very great many counties and kingdoms of Iberia during those first few centuries of the second millennium, as the Reconquista marched onwards, provide endless examples of alliances and betrayals and family intrigues amongst rulers playing the game of thrones.

There were so many kingdoms and so many crowns and family ties that it could be hard to keep track of them all. And that's just in the Christian lands; other lands than theirs there were as well, for a time. 

Those times gave us countless tales of triumph and tragedy, enough to provide a thousand years of saudades and morriñas. 

Problems with one's widowed mother's lover have driven many a prince to greatness. Or to madness.  Consider Hamlet. :/

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3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Or more specifically because "Spanish" is a modern idea, that he didn't want to be Leonese, or Castilian even as at times León and Castilla were distinct kingdoms but at other times were merged. And then there's Galicia. 

The very great many counties and kingdoms of Iberia during those first few centuries of the second millennium, as the Reconquista marched onwards, provide endless examples of alliances and betrayals and family intrigues amongst rulers playing the game of thrones.

There were so many kingdoms and so many crowns and family ties that it could be hard to keep track of them all. And that's just in the Christian lands; other lands than theirs there were as well, for a time. 

Those times gave us countless tales of triumph and tragedy, enough to provide a thousand years of saudades and morriñas. 

Problems with one's widowed mother's lover have driven many a prince to greatness. Or to madness.  Consider Hamlet. :/

As per regional gripes, extremeños from Spain and alentejanos from Portugal are more alike than Castellanos and Gallegos, or Catallans?

Nevermind the Bascos. 

I once butchered a sentence in their language and felt fear for my life.

D. Afonso Henriques was a Castillan vassal. He got fed up and took arms south to gain himself a kingdom.

It'd be an interesting and entertaining exercise in futility to try and parse through our rich history of conquerors, betrayers and schemers. 

With the occasional decent man thrown in for variety. :-)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

As per regional gripes, extremeños from Spain and alentejanos from Portugal are more alike than Castellanos and Gallegos, or Catallans?

Nevermind the Bascos. 

I once butchered a sentence in their language and felt fear for my life.

D. Afonso Henriques was a Castillan vassal. He got fed up and took arms south to gain himself a kingdom.

It'd be an interesting and entertaining exercise in futility to try and parse through our rich history of conquerors, betrayers and schemers. 

With the occasional decent man thrown in for variety. :-)

Yes, extremeños and alentejanos are closer than castellanos and catalanes, but gallegos are more akin to the first pair than to the second, with the asturianos bridging the gap.

These are all different peoples each with their own histories and many with their own kingdoms of old. The kingdom of Navarra was tied up with France and yet was a Basque kingdom, and Pamplona had its own king became the kingdom became Navarra. The Crown of Aragon extended far into the Mediterranean, and the Count of Barcelona was a very powerful man indeed. Beneath all that were the Taifa “kingdoms” with rich histories of their own.

There's good reason for the old refrain that Europe stops at the Pyrenees, for the peninsula we have come to call Iberia is like a complete continent unto itself. I was very pleased that the show chose to film as much as they did in Iberia, not just in Ireland. Its stunning tapestry woven out of a long history of castles and battles and kingdoms ever growing and contracting deserves no less.

You might enjoy reading The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay. I think you might like it; certainly you would understand it.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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On 5/24/2019 at 8:22 AM, RFL said:

I had commented in another thread that I think Sansa would have been fine with whoever in Kings Landing and Jon being executed if it meant an independent North with her at the head.  It was Arya that took executing Jon off the negotiating table.  

She let the secret of Jon's heritage slip almost as quickly as she could after learning of it.  This was a time when both dragons were still flying and it seemed certain that Dany would take the throne.  This was also before any imperative was established by the destruction of Kings Landing and Dany's "break the wheel" speech.  

She also had interesting timing in arriving at the Battle of the Bastards.  Another poster noted she seemed a bit disappointed that Jon was still alive.  

I never saw the "love" between Sansa and Jon since her return and frankly even before they parted ways.  Jon and Arya were close but Sansa seemed to see Jon as the inconvenient bastard she was forced to be around.  Even at the feast for King Robert in Winterfall Jon did not have a seat at the high table.  I don't think this was lost on young Sansa.  Sansa on her return to Winterfell never really seemed thrilled with Jon's ascension to King of the North.  

So my question:  Was Sansa all about being sure there was a free North and SHE was the head of it.  Was her aim always about letting Jon go out there and be the hero (and get killed) and when that failed she resorted to trying to unhinge Dany enough to kill Jon as a threat to her rule.  

 

You hit the nail on the head. Sansa in the end turned out the same as Cersei, Olenna and Margaery Tyrell. A cold vindictive manipulating bitch!

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Areisius said:

You hit the nail on the head. Sansa in the end turned out the same as Cersei, Olenna and Margaery Tyrell. A cold vindictive manipulating bitch!

Good Queen Margaery was never cold nor vindictive. She was very, very smart, just like her grandmother and nothing like Cersei. And she won the love of the common people, something critical for a ruler’s long-term success.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Yes, extremeños and alentejanos are closer than castellanos and catalanes, but gallegos are more akin to the first pair than to the second, with the asturianos bridging the gap.

These are all different peoples each with their own histories and many with their own kingdoms of old. The kingdom of Navarra was tied up with France and yet was a Basque kingdom, and Pamplona had its own king became the kingdom became Navarra. The Crown of Aragon extended far into the Mediterranean, and the Count of Barcelona was a very powerful man indeed. Beneath all that were the Taifa “kingdoms” with rich histories of their own.

There's good reason for the old refrain that Europe stops at the Pyrenees, for the peninsula we have come to call Iberia is like a complete continent unto itself. I was very pleased that the show chose to film as much as they did in Iberia, not just in Ireland. Its stunning tapestry woven out of a long history of castles and battles and kingdoms ever growing and contracting deserves no less.

You might enjoy reading The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay. I think you might like it; certainly you would understand it.

From the summary it reads like AU!Iberia...

Without the complication of an upstart count deciding he was going to completely split from the others.

Seriously, though, I'll look for it. Allegories of tollerance might be all we're getting these days.

I wonder if the split nations of this book's verse will ever be arrogant enough to sit at a table and draw a line over the world and go "you take that side, I keep this side". 

As for gorgeous locations, Almourol would have been fantastic. 

And Monsaraz.

But that's me claiming Portugal's better, right?

As for the adage that the Pyrenees separate Europe from this bit of land?

For all that it's a whole different concept of book, the premise of Saramago's ' A jangada de pedra' was the final touch. What if, one day, Iberia just floated off?

Edited by It_spelt_Magalhaes

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6 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

As for gorgeous locations, Almourol would have been fantastic. 

And Monsaraz.

But that's me claiming Portugal's better, right?

No, simply gorgeous, something no one could deny. 

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Sansa has spent the majority of the last two seasons trying to prevent Jon from getting himself killed (again). She pleaded with him not to go to Dragonstone. She was given the opportunity to seize power after Jon went south, but chose not to. When Arya threatened to release her season one letter, she was worried that the northern lords would abandon Jon, not her. She broke down in tears when Jon left to attack King's Landing, and conspired to put him on the Iron Throne. When Jon was sentenced to the Night's Watch, Tyrion claimed that Sansa wanted Jon exonerated. This was after the North declared independence, meaning that Sansa expected Jon to be king again. 

Sansa was never trying to overthrow Jon. If anything, she cares more about his well-being than he does.

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