Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

RFL

Was Sansa aiming for Jon?

Recommended Posts

I had commented in another thread that I think Sansa would have been fine with whoever in Kings Landing and Jon being executed if it meant an independent North with her at the head.  It was Arya that took executing Jon off the negotiating table.  

She let the secret of Jon's heritage slip almost as quickly as she could after learning of it.  This was a time when both dragons were still flying and it seemed certain that Dany would take the throne.  This was also before any imperative was established by the destruction of Kings Landing and Dany's "break the wheel" speech.  

She also had interesting timing in arriving at the Battle of the Bastards.  Another poster noted she seemed a bit disappointed that Jon was still alive.  

I never saw the "love" between Sansa and Jon since her return and frankly even before they parted ways.  Jon and Arya were close but Sansa seemed to see Jon as the inconvenient bastard she was forced to be around.  Even at the feast for King Robert in Winterfall Jon did not have a seat at the high table.  I don't think this was lost on young Sansa.  Sansa on her return to Winterfell never really seemed thrilled with Jon's ascension to King of the North.  

So my question:  Was Sansa all about being sure there was a free North and SHE was the head of it.  Was her aim always about letting Jon go out there and be the hero (and get killed) and when that failed she resorted to trying to unhinge Dany enough to kill Jon as a threat to her rule.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that is a good theory. She also seemed quite set on setting Jon and Daenerys against each other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a terrible theory. 

Why did she want "someone better." Why did she go down there to rescue his dumbass. Why did she tell him she had faith in him. Why did she say regretfully, "they lost their king." Why did she turn down every offer to be queen herself while supporting Jon the entire time?

By that point when the dealing were being made in E6, Sansa was expecting to get Jon back. That was the whole reason she was there. She sets up the North as independent. She is expecting Jon to return back to his rightful place as KitN. Then she says regretfully, that the North lost their king because they were unable to get him freed without concessions. She was clearing the way for Jon to return back to the North to rule. She appeared to like that arrangement in 7x1 and 7x2.

The reason why she told the secret is because she wanted to wake Jon the fuck up and illustrate to him why Dany is bad news. Dany proved that on her own by simply making terrible decisions in her dealings with Cersei. Sansa has a 6th sense to identify tyrants because she's spent so much time with them. Sansa may have misjudged how deeply Tyrion was into the cult, but that's also Tyrion's fault. She expected Tyrion to do the right thing when it mattered and work with Varys to help put Jon on the throne. I'm sure Tyrion wishes he would have listened to Sansa when she said Jon is "someone better." Because he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sansa asked Jon's help when she went to the Wall, she wouldn't do that if she didn't want Jon hanging around, she would ask help from LF directly, she wouldn't interfere with Jon at all.

Also Sansa told Tyrion, because she knew the Throne was Jon's right by the laws of succession, and she knew what Dany is capable of, Varys also knew, Tyrion knew, they all knew, Sansa had to tell them for a better future.

Sansa could easily betray Jon when Jon was at the Dragonstone, she could easily declare herself as Queen in the North, Glover and the Vale was supporting her, but she didn't. Because she trusted Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No I don't think she was after becoming Queen of the North and killing Jon all this time. 

1. She didn't speak for herself as the North's Queen when she told Bran she wanted it to be independent. This was before Jon's sentencing. Its possible she is envisioning a future where Jon returns to be the King of the North. This is reinforced when she tells Jon in a morose tone "The North lost its king". That's the first thing she tells him and apologises for after she meets him. She seeks validation from Jon on whether she should be queen or not. She becomes Queen in the North when Jon is unable to return, but that outcome was still up in the air when she told Bran the North would stay free. That would imply she cared more about the North’s freedom than merely being a queen, any queen.

Another instance being when Jon was leaving to meet Dany for the first time she comments that he is abandoning his home and people and when Jon says he is leaving it in safe hands she exclaims "Whose?" and then when Jon says "Yours" she is surprised. Had she been after the throne, she could have celebrated in silence and taken control the moment he left.

To be honest, Jon showed zero emotion at Winterfell(the place where he grew up) being taken over and decides to do nothing but run away down south. He only fights after Sansa eggs him to. He became King of the North because of her insistence. She tells him that if he doesn't help her she would do it herself and she could have with the Knights of the Vale anyway. 

The probable reasons why she doesn't tell Jon about Vale (apart from the theory that she wanted him dead)----

She thinks Jon is not taking Ramsay seriously while making his plans and is adopting a straightforward approach and she knows how Ramsay likes to trap and play with people and Jon is the worst possible opponent for such a guy. Of course even with a naïve battle commander, the battle would have gone very differently with the Knights of the Vale. The Knights of the Vale however are under Littlefinger's command and its in his best interest to let the Bolton and Jon's armies finish each other off and he takes control at the end. There is also no guarantee he would even show up to help and even if he did show up to help, there was still a chance Ramsay could have tricked them by keeping reserves till the very end. Besides its also possible that if Ramsay knows the Knights of the Vale are there from the outset, he could just stay in Winterfell and a long siege is not what Littlefinger wants.

At the council meeting in KL, she does threaten the Unsullied with War but when he reciprocates the reason she doesn't push further is because the Unsullied have the edge as they have Jon and could behead him at any time. She can't be too aggressive here. Arya is aggressive because unlike Sansa she isn't aware of politics and doesn't really realise the danger Jon is in.

2. As for why she leaked the secret, as bad as the show portrays it, she suspected Dany was a tyrant and was manipulating Jon-She plays a trick on Jon. She tells him Daenerys is pretty and Jon looks down blushing and when she asks him whether he bent the knee because he loves her, he doesn't respond. That gets her thinking whether Dany is using Jon's emotions to control him and via him the North. The subsidiary reasons are

  • The only beneficiary of this secret is Daenerys. No one else
  •  Tyrion is shown to be afraid of Daenerys confirming her worst fears. She gives this information to show him that a better alternative may exist or at least a legal way to stop Daenerys from getting the throne. 
  •  Dany is not going to make the North independant. Thats the main thing Sansa is after
  •  Because she thinks Dany is a tyrant and manipulating Jon, there is a possibility she could arrange an accident for Jon and get him out of the way    permanenetly. Leaking the secret actually protects Jon as the more people know about him, she would have to kill him publically and suffer    repurcussions for it. And if she tries to kill Jon because of the secret being leaked, well Jon has proof about why Sansa doesnt like her. If a simple factual truth causes Dany to go mad she doesnt deserve to be queen anyway.

Not to mention the fact that Dany specifically tells Jon that Sansa would tell everyone and asks him not to tell her and he does it anyway. So he shouldnt be surprised.

So to answer your question, yeah she wanted a free North but nothing suggests she wanted Jon killed or the crown for herself. She herself is smiling when Jon is named KiTN but stops smiling when she sees LF's smirk implying he is about to undermine Jon.  She probably suspects her as a conqueror and not a just queen as she doesnt seem to take certain basic concepts of being a queen seriously. Dany doesn't seem to take the food issue for the army seriously. She doesn't understand that the army is fatigued. She seems too obsessed with the throne and that's despite her having an inferior claim. She doesnt seem to like taking "No" for answer. She immediately implies the Northerners are oathbreakers when she suggests the idea of resting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I highly doubt it. Sansa literally said "harming Jon is not in your interest" to Yara. Tyrion later said that Sansa and Arya wanted Jon to be freed. It seemed clear that Sansa was ready to send the northerners at anyone who would suggest executing Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What really needs more examination is Bran's actions, using Jon to make himself king:

- He appears to time it so that Sam tells Jon's parentage at exactly the right moment, to set off a chain reaction.

- He tells Tyrion he was waiting for him to nominate him.

- He later says to Jon “You were exactly where you were supposed to be."

If so, Bran screwed Jon over hard. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Bran orchestrated it all to his advantage and was ok whatever the cost. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the 3ER orchestrated things for the betterment of the Realm, if not humanity.  The cost for that is what it is.


But let's stay on topic.   :)  the thread is about sansa aiming for jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Sansa wanted Jon dead I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have had the entire Northern Army outside the gates of King's Landing in an attempt to get him back since as she told Yara "Harming Jon was not in your best interest".

 

Honestly, she's expressed devotion to Jon over and over even if she doesn't necessarily agree with any of his choices. It shows even when she says goodbye to him. She still refers to him as the North's king and it's clear that she cares about him--especially from that hug. I really can't see this whole "Sansa is plotting to kill/etc. Jon" theory that everyone's been throwing around since season six. I've never seen any evidence of it but I've seen plenty of evidence of a Sansa who is both on Jon's side, is worried and concerned about Jon and if his choices may end up hurting him, and deeply cares for her remaining family.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

She was certainly keen to stir the pot, in order to undermine Daenerys, but she didn't want Jon dead, as her subsequent actions showed.  Daenerys dead, Jon alive, and her as Queen of the North was everything she wanted.

Admittedly, by stirring the pot, she might have got both herself and Jon killed, but that was the risk she took.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Bran and Sansa used Jon to further their ends at the expense of his Jon's well being and happiness. They are both monsters for it.

Arya is the only living member of that family that truly cares about Jon's feelings. Dany is the only person who actually loved him. Jon is a stupid fucking idiot, so he probably deserves his fate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What really needs more examination is Bran's actions, using Jon to make himself king:

- He appears to time it so that Sam tells Jon's parentage at exactly the right moment, to set off a chain reaction.

- He tells Tyrion he was waiting for him to nominate him.

- He later says to Jon “You were exactly where you were supposed to be."

If so, Bran screwed Jon over hard. 

Bran had to make sure that Jon saw with his own eyes who Dany really was. It was the only way to save the kingdom.

Bran had to show Jon that Dany was wrong about her supposedly being the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

Bran had to show Jon that upon learning the truth Dany would reject and attempt to suppress it.  She would do what she wanted to no matter what. It wasn't her right.

That way Jon would realize that the right and wrong of her being the heir never mattered to Dany, only her (unfounded) obsession for the Iron Throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, RFL said:

I believe Bran orchestrated it all to his advantage and was ok whatever the cost. 

Bran’s concern was saving the kingdom from the double hammer-blow of the world ending in ice and fire.  

Had the world been destroyed, nothing else would matter ever again.

He did what he needed to do. Nothing else would have mattered otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn’t asking Arya to kill Dany, after sending her out to kill the Nights King, been far more efficient in terms of human life?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, RFL said:

Wouldn’t asking Arya to kill Dany, after sending her out to kill the Nights King, been far more efficient in terms of human life?

Could she kill Dany though? Her Dragon was guarding her, she probably couldn't pass the Dragon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ll give you she may not have survived after. That is a point. Even then if he balances all the lives in KL against one he is far from neutral. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Pandean said:

I really can't see this whole "Sansa is plotting to kill/etc. Jon" theory that everyone's been throwing around since season six. I've never seen any evidence of it but I've seen plenty of evidence of a Sansa who is both on Jon's side, is worried and concerned about Jon and if his choices may end up hurting him, and deeply cares for her remaining family.

When you hate a character, anything works. Despite there being zero evidence in the show to support your point. Even when there are several instances that show the opposite, it means nothing if it gets in the way of your hate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Could she kill Dany though? Her Dragon was guarding her, she probably couldn't pass the Dragon.

Unlike her fellow dragonrider and loving nephew lover-nephew, Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mystical said:

When you hate a character, anything works. Despite there being zero evidence in the show to support your point. Even when there are several instances that show the opposite, it means nothing if it gets in the way of your hate.

Makes sense. Sadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...