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Daenerys tried to steal Jon's right like Renly tried to Stannis's


RYShh

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If Jon hadnt turned away from her when he found out she was his aunt, she would have immediately championed his ancestry.

There was never a reason for her not to, a marriage to him would further legitimize her rule. So the conflict of who was the heir would be completely artificial.

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13 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

If Jon hadnt turned away from her when he found out she was his aunt, she would have immediately championed his ancestry.

There was never a reason for her not to, a marriage to him would further legitimize her rule. So the conflict of who was the heir would be completely artificial.

We don't know this for sure, do we? My feelings were it was the conversation with Sam (where Jon tells Sam that the Tarlys were executed by dragon fire) that made Jon doubt Dany as a fit ruler.

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14 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

If Jon hadnt turned away from her when he found out she was his aunt, she would have immediately championed his ancestry.

There was never a reason for her not to, a marriage to him would further legitimize her rule. So the conflict of who was the heir would be completely artificial.

On paper, it looks like an easy to fix issue. 

And that tripe about the Starks is show!verse pandering.

Have them bump uglies already.

In case the papers ever came public as evidence they'd already be House Targaryen.

But that would be too easy, right?

Wait, then he'd have to kill her for some reason that created actual conflict, not:

I lurv u, but u mad.

How... prosaic.

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3 hours ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Every character has their own plans and feelings and ambitions. Believing Daenerys would simply give up after all her journey?

We're talking about someone who regularly flies around on a nuke. She's earned her delusion of destiny and 'mission' fair and square.

It sounds more than naive, it sounds cruel when some say she should have simply said 'everything I gained is yours'.

Quite.  In medieval terms Jon would have had an unfortunate hunting accident before his parentage became widely known and Dany would be exactly what she and 99.99% of Westeros always believed, the rightful heir with the mobile barbecue set up to overcome , quite literally, any cold feet.

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3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

We don't know this for sure, do we? My feelings were it was the conversation with Sam (where Jon tells Sam that the Tarlys were executed by dragon fire) that made Jon doubt Dany as a fit ruler.

Probably,

But after Varys's execution, he says he loves her again, so it must be that the ''aunt'' thing rather than not loving her anymore, considering that Jon wasn't lying.

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36 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Probably,

But after Varys's execution, he says he loves her again, so it must be that the ''aunt'' thing rather than not loving her anymore, considering that Jon wasn't lying.

Or it could be that he loved her, yet saw that she was becoming a tyrant, killing people left, right and center. The reason I push back on the aunt thing is that the situation was barely ever addressed in the show. Dany turning mad however, as terribly done as it was, was the main theme of season 8 for her arc.

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32 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Or it could be that he loved her, yet saw that she was becoming a tyrant, killing people left, right and center. The reason I push back on the aunt thing is that the situation was barely ever addressed in the show. Dany turning mad however, as terribly done as it was, was the main theme of season 8 for her arc.

Yeah sadly, only if he said ''you're my aunt, I can't'' kind of thing, it would be very clear.

The only thing we've Varys;

He says ''She is his aunt,'' , ''No, but Jon grew up in Winterfell. Is marrying your aunt common in the North? You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She does not like to have her authority questioned.''

So according to Varys, Jon couldn't even agree to a political marriage (let alone a sexual relationship) between him and Daenerys because Jon is a Northerner.

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2 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Yeah sadly, only if he said ''you're my aunt, I can't'' kind of thing, it would be very clear.

The only thing we've Varys;

He says ''She is his aunt,'' , ''No, but Jon grew up in Winterfell. Is marrying your aunt common in the North? You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She does not like to have her authority questioned.''

So according to Varys, Jon couldn't even agree to a political marriage (let alone a sexual relationship) between him and Daenerys because Jon is a Northerner.

Varys, speaking the words of D&D, is an ignorant hack. 

Rickard and Liarra Stark were cousins.

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6 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Varys, speaking the words of D&D, is an ignorant hack. 

Rickard and Liarra Stark were cousins.

I think aunt and nephew are closer than cousins,

Cousin marriages are ok imo, but aunt and nephew I never heard of in the North.

Sexual relationship between aunt and nephew should be incest.

 

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8 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I think aunt and nephew is closer than cousins,

Cousin marriages are ok imo, but aunt and nephew I never heard of in the North.

Genetically, you're right, an avuncular marriage would be closer. Even of they were all the rage irl royal houses.

And now for the plot twist?

Varys can not only teleport!

He stole Bran's DeLorean to put the kibosh on Jon shagging his auntie, reported fertility or not!

He found out about Hitler's parents!

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Or it could be that he loved her, yet saw that she was becoming a tyrant, killing people left, right and center. The reason I push back on the aunt thing is that the situation was barely ever addressed in the show. Dany turning mad however, as terribly done as it was, was the main theme of season 8 for her arc.

Not really, her kill count when she met Jon was pretty low in Westeros, not sure why Sam would care about his father being burned considering how they parted and how she gave him the option to yield.  

The first time Jon fails to reciprocate affection is right after he tells her she's his aunt - it's clearly implied this is a hangup for him since he turned away and then essentially ignored her for the rest of the season until he shanks her. 

Also, everyone agreed Varys had to die. Why is this even remotely unsettling to Jon? He tried to have Dany killed. 

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3 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Not sure why Sam would care about his father being burned considering how they parted and how she gave him the option to yield.  

I think we're going with the logic that no matter how much they abuse and despise you, they're still family!

This is the same logic that has Daenerys' lack of reaction to finally being freed of show!Viserys' abuse and torture as evident proof that she was a total mad hatter from the get go.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it was shock, but I wouldn't exactly blame her for feeling relief instead of 'nothing' after what he'd just threatened to do.

But on the Tarlys, who'd just made a play for the Reach by betraying Highgarden to sack, massacre and the final erradication of House Tyrell, one of Daenerys' allies in Westeros? Maybe the most important one?

Them bending the knee was a matter of importance, not a temper tantrum. The offer alone was more than many a military commander would allow for.

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4 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I think we're going with the logic that no matter how much they abuse and despise you, they're still family!

This is the same logic that has Daenerys' lack of reaction to finally being freed of show!Viserys' abuse and torture as evident proof that she was a total mad hatter from the get go.

Personally I'm of the opinion that it was shock, but I wouldn't exactly blame her for feeling relief instead of 'nothing' after what he'd just threatened to do.

But on the Tarlys, who'd just made a play for the Reach by betraying Highgarden to sack, massacre and the final erradication of House Tyrell, one of Daenerys' allies in Westeros? Maybe the most important one?

Them bending the knee was a matter of importance, not a temper tantrum. The offer alone was more than many a military commander would allow for.

I can't agree with that logic, lol. 

Absolutely, she showed incredible restraint instead of killing them all immediately. There's a huge double standard on this forum when it comes to Danys actions compared to the rest of the rulers. Just because she's better at killing it doesn't make her a worse ruler, only more powerful.

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7 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Just because she's better at killing it doesn't make her a worse ruler, only more powerful.

I wonder if the unsullied watchers would feel anything differently about Daenerys' actions if more of the Lannister and Frey and other atrocities in the riverlands had been in the show? 

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18 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

I can't agree with that logic, lol. 

Absolutely, she showed incredible restraint instead of killing them all immediately. There's a huge double standard on this forum when it comes to Danys actions compared to the rest of the rulers. Just because she's better at killing it doesn't make her a worse ruler, only more powerful.

Sam, in my view, pointed out to Jon that Dany is behaving erratically, regardless of whether he cares about his father or not. I'm not saying it makes too much sense, I'm saying that is what the show was going for. The incest being a problem was never discussed at all.

Plus, I'm not saying Dany was worse or more tyrannical than other characters before she burnt KL. I was largely neutral towards her. But after burning down KL, yeah, she's worse. (Having said that, given how rushed the season was, burning down civilians was out of character for Dany, in my view)

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30 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Personally I'm of the opinion that it was shock, but I wouldn't exactly blame her for feeling relief instead of 'nothing' after what he'd just threatened to do

Maybe it was shock. But even if it wasnt, I don't blame Dany either. Viserys was rather abusive to Dany all throughout her childhood and had threatened to kill her and her baby in the incident in question. Why wouldnt she be relieved he was gone? And it is possible to feel relief and sadness at the same time. I believe book Dany did indeed feel grief for the loss of her brother.

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1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

Maybe it was shock. But even if it wasnt, I don't blame Dany either. Viserys was rather abusive to Dany all throughout her childhood and had threatened to kill her and her baby in the incident in question. Why wouldnt she be relieved he was gone? And it is possible to feel relief and sadness at the same time. I believe book Dany did indeed feel grief for the loss of her brother.

Yeah. I think she carries that and guilt over it too. 

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38 minutes ago, CCRArabians said:

I wonder if the unsullied watchers would feel anything differently about Daenerys' actions if more of the Lannister and Frey and other atrocities in the riverlands had been in the show? 

Maybe.

Imagine ressurrectionbarbie!Jon going old school north on the Boltons and the Freys, full on human sacrifice to the weirwoods and all? As I personally hope he'll be?

How would that work on the show for Bland!AragornLight? 

Would people still pontificate about Duty over Love and all that?

Or would it simply be his awareness that the North would say 'screw you and the dragon you rode in on', like the intractable, foolhardy, blind to danger stubborn assholes they are and he'd have to save their asses even if he had to spit on oaths or whatever?

That'd be a bitchin' KitN, more Stark than anything we saw in the show, regardless of his dragon blood. R+L=J bedamned.

 

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52 minutes ago, CCRArabians said:

I wonder if the unsullied watchers would feel anything differently about Daenerys' actions if more of the Lannister and Frey and other atrocities in the riverlands had been in the show? 


Probably, they never showed the violence that went into governing and expansion of the other kingdoms. A lot of people have a hard time accepting someone can be good need to do bad or that when measuring deaths you have to measure the amount of influence as well. Why are the rulers of a bunch of little kingdoms killing each other better than one ruler with a greater kill count but much greater influence?

Status-quo is safe I suppose and the mindset of the Dany haters she always represented what they didn't like: Massive change and loss of autonomy. 
 

38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Sam, in my view, pointed out to Jon that Dany is behaving erratically, regardless of whether he cares about his father or not. I'm not saying it makes too much sense, I'm saying that is what the show was going for. The incest being a problem was never discussed at all.

Plus, I'm not saying Dany was worse or more tyrannical than other characters before she burnt KL. I was largely neutral towards her. But after burning down KL, yeah, she's worse. (Having said that, given how rushed the season was, burning down civilians was out of character for Dany, in my view)

How is what she did erratic? It's perfectly logical for someone who didn't participate in the slave trade - kneel or die.

It doesn't need to be said....Jon refused to kiss her after he revealed to her his parents. It's clear that's his problem not Sams dad getting roasted. 

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4 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

How is what she did erratic? It's perfectly logical for someone who didn't participate in the slave trade - kneel or die.

I'm not saying I agree with sam completely, I'm saying that is what the show was going for.

 

5 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

It doesn't need to be said....Jon refused to kiss her after he revealed to her his parents. It's clear that's his problem not Sams dad getting roasted. 

I disagree it doesn't need to be said. Especially since targaryens married siblings and jaime-cersei were portrayed as tragic lovers :ack: in the show.

I'm not saying Jon cares about sam's dad, I'm saying sam made Jon question his decision of supporting dany.

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