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AlaerysTargaryen

Your biggest what if?

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Are there any of you who imagine what would of happened if certain character didn't exist or never died, or had a completely different backgrounds? Or the most important events in the story happened in a different time period?

I have always pondered about the family relationship between Ned and Catelyn and their children. Much can be said about Jon treatment by his "stepmom", which is based on her traditions, perception of the bastard stigma, culture, faith and how her marriage began.

And about her marriage, this is where my" what if" presents itself.

 

What if Catelyn married Brandon before he departed to the capital to seek answers for his sister's abduction? And what if her first child was by him? This always could've raised many differrents and very interesting possibilities IMO.

 

> Her first child could be a girl. If it where a boy, it could technically be the Lord of Winterfell as Brandon dies almost inmediately after his father. She has a girl and for honor's sake Ned marries his brother's widow. Would they continually learned to love eachother as they did in the novel? Who knows, Catelyn always seemed to have loved Brandon very much, and having to get married with his brother after this tragedy , couldve made their pairing more difficult.

 

> Let's say Sansa is her firstborn. The girl who could've been the Lord of Winterfell if she had been a boy , if her father hadn't died. This could be developed into the ambition that she and her mother share for her to succeed and to become a Queen , a highest position of what could've been her birthright.

 

> Jon, her second husband's bastard. Would Catelyn treat Jon differently? Ned doesn't "betray" her as she isn't married to him yet. Or would she be more bitter about the fact that she has to be married a man who has already dishonored himself? The family dynamics would change completely I think.

 

> The Starks sibling dynamics. I always read Sansa as very isolated towards her siblings, with Arya it is very obvious and Jon is practically non existent for her. But there isn't any intimacy with her other brothers as well. Robb, Bran, Rickon, all shared very tender love between them and it felt like their fraternal relationship was very established. I think this very self imposed "outsider" attitude and her slight sense of superiority is what made feel that Sansa didn't belong quite strongly with the rest of the Starks. What if she was their older sister?

 

Anyhow, this is only an exercise of thought. Is there any thing you would change about asoiaf?

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My biggest what if, and I'm sure it has been thoroughly discussed in this forum, is what if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident?

I initially thought it would be all rosy, Rhaegar is great and he'd depose daddy and peace would spread through the realms; but now I think about it much more critically. Rhaegar still has to explain his "abduction", multiple great houses have to be replaced, and Rhaegar was on a slow descent into prophecy madness (even if he turns out to be right, it wouldn't have made for a steady ruler).

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36 minutes ago, El Diego said:

My biggest what if, and I'm sure it has been thoroughly discussed in this forum, is what if Rhaegar won the battle of the Trident?

I initially thought it would be all rosy, Rhaegar is great and he'd depose daddy and peace would spread through the realms; but now I think about it much more critically. Rhaegar still has to explain his "abduction", multiple great houses have to be replaced, and Rhaegar was on a slow descent into prophecy madness (even if he turns out to be right, it wouldn't have made for a steady ruler).

Lyanna still would have died of childbirth. Would he proclaim Jon as legitimate? Say Lyanna was his second wife? Does Ned survive the Trident? If not, does house Stark goes extinct if Benjen has joined the NW already? Does baby Robb survives being the son of a traitor.

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6 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Lyanna still would have died of childbirth. Would he proclaim Jon as legitimate? Say Lyanna was his second wife? Does Ned survive the Trident? If not, does house Stark goes extinct if Benjen has joined the NW already? Does baby Robb survives being the son of a traitor.

Also my biggest What If... Rhaegar having at least cared for Lyanna and at least feeling guilty over Rickard and Brandon's deaths I doubt House Stark would be in danger under his rule. Being King it would be no issue to legitimize Jon (or whatever his real name is) whether he was actually married to Lyanna or not. My questions would be more along will we have dragons if Dany doesn't have to go to Essos or could she hatch them under other circumstances as magic rises on both continents? Are they needed for something else than conquering Westeros back? How will the big houses and Westeros get ready for the Others? Will the different kingdoms believe in the thread? How would the Lannister play their cards with the Targaryen still ruling? 

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Tywin invaded Riverlands with almost 40k men. That means that there should have been very few men left to defend very rich lands and major city. Instead of raiding those lron Born decided to invade a swamp and areas including some very poor fishers and farmers.

Also Renly had huge army doing nothing so just in theory by sending even some of those warriors invading Westerlands he could have caused massive problems to Lannisters.

So my biggest if is that what has happened if Reach and IB had invaded Westerlands when most of local forces were elsewhere?

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What if Cersei had married Rhaegar?

What if Robb had married the Frey girl?

What if Sansa had married Joffrey?

What if Khal Drogo had been saved?

What if Nedd had been sent to the wall?

What if Tywin hadn’t died?

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Posted (edited)

What if Blackfyres won in their First Rebellion, and Daemon I Blackfyre became the King of 7K, instead of Daeron II Targaryen? What kind of impact it would have had on the Second Long Night, if now the ruling dynasty of 7K were Blackfyres and not Targaryens, but the Prince that was Promised was still from the Targaryen line?

First Rebellion happened in 196 AC, Maekar Targaryen was born in 174-178, and took part in the Redgrass Battle.

"During the First Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC, Maekar served as one of the Targaryen commanders. It was his shield wall that held against the "mad" attack of his uncle Bittersteel in the Battle of the Redgrass Field.[4] While his brother Baelor Breakspear attacked the rebel army from the rear with a host of stormlords and Dornishmen, Maekar rallied what remained of Lord Donnel Arryn's vanguard and made an unyielding anvil against which the rebels were hammered and destroyed, and the battle was won.[7] Later, a song about "the hammer and the anvil" was made about the battle, with Baelor as the hammer and Maekar the anvil.[4] "

Now, if Blackfyres won in that war, there's two possible options, of what could have happened next - 1. if Maekar got killed; 2. if Maekar survived.

Maekar was father of Aegon V, grandfather of Jaehaerys II, and great-grandfather of Aerys II. If Maekar got killed, prior fathering Aegon, then Dany, Jon and Rhaego, the three heads of the dragon, that will defeat the Others, wouldn't have been born. Thus, the outcome of Maekar's death, is the Neverending Night, and a total extinction of life on Planetos.

In case if Maekar survived. For example, Daemon had spared majority of his relatives, including Maekar, and even an ex-King Daeron got sent to The Wall, to join Night's Watch. Some Targaryens either got exiled to Essos by the new King, or escaped there by their own decision, where later they founded Golden Company. Only instead of Aegor Bittersteel, it was founded by Baelor Breakspear ^_^

Egg Targaryen still got born, became father of Duncan, Jaehaerys, Shaera, Rhaelle, and Daeron. Duncan still got married with Jenny of Oldstones. Daeron still was gay, and died in a confrontation against the Rat, the Hawk, and the Pig. Jaehaerys and Shaera still eloped, and got married. But none of them were ever betrothed to Redwynes or Baratheons. Instead, children from the ruling dynasty of Blackfyres were engaged, and got married with the members of those royal Houses. So Robert Baratheon and his brothers would have never been born. Because Rhaelle Targaryen would have been not a princess, and she would have gotten married with someone else, not with Ormund Baratheon (Robert's grandfather).

Targaryens would have still met the Ghost of High Heart, who would have given them a prophecy about the Prince that was Promised. So Aerys and Rhaella still would have married, only they were not King and Queen of 7K. Rhaegar was born, didn't married with Elia Martell (his father Aerys wasn't mad, so he didn't cared about purity of blood, and let Rhaegar to choose his own wife), won Tournament at Harrenhal, crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty. Only instead of Robert (who didn't existed), she was engaged with one of "Blackfyres".

How that could have happened - for example, one of Blackfyre princesses, instead of Rhaelle Targaryen, got married with Ormund Baratheon. And Ormund got killed in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Only instead of Maelys the Monstrous, Golden Company was lead by one of exiled Targaryens. Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn became friends in span of that Rebellion, and Ned got fostered at The Eyrie by Jon Arryn, together with that "Blackfyre Robert". So Brandon Stark still got engaged with Catelyn Tully, and "Robert" Blackfyre-Baratheon got engaged with Lyanna Stark. Or this guy didn't existed at all, and Lyanna wasn't engaged with anyone, but she still was kidnapped by Rhaegar (or willingly elloped with him).

Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, but because Aerys wasn't King of 7K (instead the King was Vaerys II Blackfyre :lmao:Varys in a parallel dimension), this kidnapping wouldn't have caused a big Rebellion. Instead, it would have been a smaller confrontation only between Targaryens and Starks. Aerys would have been killed by Rickard Stark (^_^ in reverse to how it happened in the original ASOIAF), Rhaegar got killed by Brandon (Rhaegar defeated Brandon at Harrenhal's tournament, and Brandon defeated Rhaegar at Trident. So, instead of Littlefinger's duel against Brandon, there would have been Rhaegar's duel against Brandon, and Brandon would have won, and Rhaegar died). Lyanna still gave birth to Jon, and died in a bed of blood; Rhaella still escaped to Dragonstone, where she gave birth to Dany, and then died; Jon was taken into Winterfell, and presented to Starks as Ned's bastard-son. Brandon Stark got married with Catelyn Tully, and eventually became Lord of Winterfell. Instead of Benjen, it was Ned, who went to The Wall, and joined Night's Watch. And eventually Jon also would have ended up at The Wall, with Ned instead of Benjen. Instead of Willem Darry, Dany and Viserys would have been taken to Essos by their Targaryen relatives, that were leading Golden Company. If there was "Blackfyre Robert", then he could have been something like a nephew of some sort of King Vaerys, and a member of the Small Council. If he held a grudge against Targaryens, same as the original Robert, then he could have sent his agent to Essos, to get rid of the remaining Targaryens. Or if dark-Robert didn't existed, it could have been King Vaerys II Blackfyre, who could have sent his people to Essos, to deal with Targaryens.

Viserys, who was leader of Golden Company, would have married Dany to Khal Drogo, and was intending to join forces with Dothraki, and to invade Westeros, to take back Iron Throne, that used to belong to Targaryens. So King Vaerys (Varys) would have sent a merchant to Vaes Dothrak, and that guy would have killed Viserys with poisoned wine. After Drogo's death, and Rhaego's kidnapping (Dany would have still been made to believe, that her baby had died), when Dothraki left Dany at Red Waste, she would have still hatched her dragons. Only instead of going to Slaver's Bay, she would have went back to Golden Company, and became their leader. Later she would have still been reunited with Rhaego (how it will happen in TWOW), and she would have still been the Mother of Dragons, and Rhaego still would have been the Stallion that mounts the world. So Dothraki would have joined forces with Golden Company, to invade Westeros. Maybe Dany would have still went to Slaver's Bay, and tricked masters of Astapor into giving her all of their Unsullied.

So instead of what is happening now - fAegon with Golden Company had invaded Westeros, and Dany is going to invade it with Dothraki and Unsullied; there would have been invasion of Dany and Rhaego into Westeros, with Dothraki, Unsullied and Golden Company.

Instead of Robert Baratheon, Cersei would have been married with Vaerys II Blackfyre. But her three children would have still been Jaime's bastards. So Cersei still could have offed her husband, just because. If Aerys of this version, was still friends with Tywin Lannister, and Tywin was still a treacherous traiter, like in the original version, then, instead of the Sack of King's Landing, there would have happened the Sack of Summerhall. Targaryens stopped being the ruling dynasty of Westeros, so Blackfyres, after defeating them, took away from them all of their dragon eggs, and stored them at Dragonstone. So, Targaryens weren't making any attempts to hatch dragon eggs, thus, the Tragedy at Summerhall had never happened. Blackfyres took over King's Landing and Dragonstone, but left Summerhall to Targaryens, because that castle was build by Daeron II for his wife, Maryah Martell. So after Blackfyres won in their Rebellion, Summerhall remained to be Targaryen residence. But when Targaryens had a confrontation with Starks (because of Rhaegar supposedly kidnapping Lyanna), and Aerys with Rhaegar were killed at the Trident, Tywin Lannister came to Summerhall, and offered his help to Aerys' remaining family - his uncle Duncan the Small, and his parents Jaehaerys and Shaera (in the original version those three died during burning of Summerhall). So Targaryens oppened the gates of Summerhall to Tywin, and he killed them all. And in this version Jaime killed Jaehaerys II, instead of Aerys II. So to thank Tywin for what he did, King Vaerys II Blackfyre got married with Cersei Lannister. And pregnant Rhaella was sent by Aerys to Dragonstone, together with Viserys, to steal from there three Targaryen dragon eggs. One for Viserys, one for her unborn baby (Dany), and one for Lyanna's unborn baby (about whom Rhaegar thought, that it will be a girl). So they were planning, that in the worst case scenario, if they will have to flee from Westeros, and will have to re-establish Targaryen dynasty in Essos, then Viserys will marry with his sister, Dany, and with, whom he expected to be, his niece, Visenya (that istead turned out to be a boy :)).

Instead of Jon Arryn and Ned Stark, the Hand of the King would have been descendant of Aegor Bittersteel, possibly Illyrio Mopatis. Instead of Benjen Stark, it was Ned, who dissapeared beyond The Wall, so Jon would have remained at Castle Black alone, not knowing about his real origin, same as in the original version. He would have still became Lord Commander, and befriended with the wildlings. There would have been no War of Five Kings, and Joffrey Blackfyre (Lannister) would have been King of 7K, at the time of Dany's invasion into Westeros. Melisandre still would have came to Westeros, thinking, that the Prince that was Promised, is the Prince of Dragonstone. So, prior Dany's invasion, there could have been a confrontation between Joffrey and Tommen. Only they would have been a few years older, born in 284 and 285, instead of 286 and 291. So, in 299-300 AC instead of confrontation of Stannis against Renly and Lannisters, and the War of the Five Kings, there would have been a civil war between Blackfyre(Lannister) brothers, at that time they would have been around Robb's and Jon's age, 16-14. If Starks knew about Jon's origin, then Lord Brandon Stark and his son Robb Stark, could have supported Targaryens in a span of their invasion. Because Jon is their relative, and he would have became Dany's husband, and the King of 7K. And Dany could have been also supported by Martells. Because King Daeron II Targaryen was married with Maryah Martell, and Baelor Breakspear, founder of Golden Company, was half-Martell. So, it's likely, that Martells would have been NOT Ok with Daemon I Blackfyre becoming King of 7K. So when Viserys and Dany escaped to Essos, same as in the original version, Doran and Oberyn Martell contacted exiled Targaryens, and negotiated an engagement between Viserys and Arianne Martell. So, they wouldn't have been happy, when Blackfyres poisoned Viserys, and took away from Arriane an opportunity to become Queen of 7K. Thus Doran would have tried to negotiate a new marriage alliance, to marry Dany with Quentyn Martell.

But the general outcome would have been the same - Dany, Rhaego and Jon, as the three heads of Targaryen dragon, and they would have defeated the Others, and became rulers of 7K.

So if Blackfyres defeated Targaryens, and became rulers of 7K, in case if Maekar Targaryen had died, before fathering Egg, then it would have resulted in a victory of the Others, and the End of the World; but if Maekar survived thru First Blackfyre Rebellion, the otcome of the history, even with Blackfyres, as the rulers of 7K, would have been the same, as in the original version of events, in which Targaryens defeated Blackfyres.

Edited by Megorova

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14 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What if Renly wasn't assassinated? 

This is my big one but I have others:

  • If Stannis was in KL for the first book.
  • If Ned told Robert his suspicions
  • If Ned sent Loras instead of Beric
  • If Ned listened to Renly...or LF
  • If Jaime or Theon was killed at the Whispering Wood
  • If Stannis rallied the army at Bitterbridge
  • If Arya used one of her three faceless man kills on Tywin
  • If the KL mob killed Tyrion.
  • If the wildfire plot failed.
  • If Cat proposed a Tyrell Stark betrothal.

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What if Balon had accepted Robb's offer and invaded the Westerlands

What if Ned sends Loras together with Beric

What if Robert survives the boar

What if Stannis had telled Robert instead of Jon Arryn

What if the Purple Wedding happens before the Red Wedding

What if Tyrion and Bronn are killed in the Vale by the mountain clan

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What if Sansa haven't informed Cercei on Ned's plans? He was probably gonna survive KL by the skin of his teeth if it wasn't for Sansa...

What if Sansa died at childbirth?

What if her direwolf ate Sansa?

What if Arya stuck Sansa with the pointy end?

What if Sansa choked on a lemon cake?

What if Sansa had a heart attack and died?

 

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What If Stannis had chosen to Stay loyal to the Targs during the rebellion? He DID say it was the hardest decision of his life,,,his brother or his King. 

Imagine if his own  brother hadn't supported Robert. it would have given the Storm lords someone to rally around.

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13 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

What if Balon had accepted Robb's offer and invaded the Westerlands

What if Ned sends Loras together with Beric

What if Robert survives the boar

What if Stannis had telled Robert instead of Jon Arryn

What if the Purple Wedding happens before the Red Wedding

What if Tyrion and Bronn are killed in the Vale by the mountain clan

I don’t think that would ever have been possible. Even if the wound itself wasn’t fatal, i’m sure either Cersei herself or GM Pycelle would have quietly ensure it killed him. Or perhaps he would tragically choke on a chicken bone while feasting with his poor wife. Can’t you just see the tragic widow sobbing over her loss...

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12 minutes ago, Robert7707 said:

What If Stannis had chosen to Stay loyal to the Targs during the rebellion? He DID say it was the hardest decision of his life,,,his brother or his King. 

Imagine if his own  brother hadn't supported Robert. it would have given the Storm lords someone to rally around.

Would also have freed up the Tyrell forces and Redwyne fleet besieging Storms End. I suspect Robert’s Rebellion would have had an alternative outcome had this happened

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Posted (edited)

What if Ned had made some other provision for Jon Snow instead of leaving him to end up joining the Night's Watch?

Ned could have fostered Jon with just about any of his bannermen and had he fostered with House Tallhart, House Manderly, or House Ryswell could have possibly earned a knighthood and chose a new name. 

Ned also had loads of contacts in the Vale, perhaps House Royce or Redfort would have taken Jon on?

The point is, Ned made no provision for Jon. Although to be honest it seems he gave little thought to the future for any of his children.

Edited by wvchemteach

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1 hour ago, wvchemteach said:

What if Ned had made some other provision for Jon Snow instead of leaving him to end up joining the Night's Watch?

Ned could have fostered Jon with just about any of his bannermen and had he fostered with House Tallhart, House Manderly, or House Ryswell could have possibly earned a knighthood and chose a new name. 

Ned also had loads of contacts in the Vale, perhaps House Royce or Redfort would have taken Jon on?

The point is, Ned made no provision for Jon. Although to be honest it seems he gave little thought to the future for any of his children.

The idea is that it wouldn't of been safe. Let's say Jon is fostered with the Manderly's of White Harbor. Should Wyman or anyone else for that matter, discover Jon's alleged parentage, they could be inclined to start a war over it. Jon going to join the NW meant he'd relinquish any rights and titles. It wasn't necessarily best for Jon. But it was the safest thing for the realm. 

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