How would you have ended it?

[Crixus]

14 hours ago, SeanF said:

Every character became implausible,and actions stopped having consequences.  Even in Season 6, Arya could be stabbed in the stomach, fall into filthy water, and get better after a night's sleep.

Anyone in Dany's position would have flattened the Red Keep the moment they reached Westeros, and no one would condemn her for it.  No one would criticise a commander in the modern world who used a drone or bomber to destroy a military target, so why would someone with a dragon in a medieval world be expected to operate differently?  All the military strategies became stupid beyond belief.

And, Cersei ought to have been toast, after murdering half the nobility, the equivalent of the Pope and Cardinals, and hundreds of the Smallfolk.  But, nobody minded apart from Olenna Tyrell.  

The awfulness of Season 8 can't be addressed, without going back to the awfulness of Season 7 and beyond.  Every character became a plot point, either forgetting things they had done or knew about in earlier episodes, or becoming uncharacteristically stupid, or being given incredible plot armour.

In a sense, the ending was irrelevant, given the sheer randomness of how they got to it.

Agree completely. None of it made sense - in fact, the rot was discernible quite early on (season 4 in my view). But yes, it became laughably worse each season. I do think that the ending may have been a shade better if they'd fulfilled the shit they set up themselves such as Dany being a hero and winning the throne (every single 'badass' scene she had was portrayed as heroic before S8). But yeah, no amount of effort could've salvaged this shitshow by the end. 

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Crixus said:

Agree completely. None of it made sense - in fact, the rot was discernible quite early on (season 4 in my view). But yes, it became laughably worse each season. I do think that the ending may have been a shade better if they'd fulfilled the shit they set up themselves such as Dany being a hero and winning the throne (every single 'badass' scene she had was portrayed as heroic before S8). But yeah, no amount of effort could've salvaged this shitshow by the end. 

Linda Antonsson said the show began to die with Dany's Qarth plot in Season 2, and it's hard to disagree.  The plot is nonsense, and showed what the two D's would do, when writing original material.

[Crixus]

That is a really good point @SeanF. Qarth was a bad joke - seemed like a third rate periodcostumeexoticsoftporn sidebar. I think the only thing they really took from the books was the Qartheen dress with one breast bared  

[MelisandresBurningPanties]

disagree completely on qarth : i had not read the books in 2012 and that scene was one of my favourite scenes and now we can look back on it and its become clear  that those things that comprised her ending  were foreshadowed in dany's story and were there from the beginning : ( the writers have also said this) a wrecked throne room and kings landing , absent life and ruined, covered in either snow or ash ( iassumed it was snow from winter and the others, a pity it didnt happen) her being close to gaining the throne but failing to be queen of westeros, rather passing on and seeing her first love and unborn child in the afterlife and finally going north beyond the wall. All things that came to pass, regardless of the manner in which they wrote them. The music ramin djawadi wrote is fantastic, eerie, mystical, and very appropriate, the camera work is great, over all its still one of my favourite scene from GOT. Yes the book scene would have been better but i dont think they could have done it from a budgetary POV at the time and the wolfs head needed to be cut anyway other wise it would spoil too much, and as there were things there that didnt even happen in the series, its probably best they went a different route. Something i wouldnt mind at all in regard to the major beats and the ending, if they had come up with a different resolution as long as it was good and believable , it would at least not spoil the books storylines... for instance i would love to see stannis victorious in the north and facing a conquering targaryen army lead by dany and the hellish hordes of essos. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

I thought Qarth had some real cheesy moments. It didn't feel like a lived-in world at all. Emilia's acting was bad. Xaro's lines were bad. The scene where the dragons burn "through" Dany to kill the evil warlock was cheesy as hell and we had a huge laugh at that. But yeah, looking back, I do think the foreshadowings were on point and agree with you @MelisandresBurningPanties (lmao your name is ).

Dany locking Xaro and Doreah up in that vault to starve to death was an effective addition to the "should we cheer or be worried?" It's a fist pumping moment but is also kinda disturbing. Just like with Mirri in the books, Dany didn't ask any questions before she doled out another punishment (Doreah was a sex slave who could have been coerced for all she knows).

I think by S5 folks should have realized that the "Dany fist pumping scenes" are not sustainable. That only happens on Xena: Warrior Princess.

[SeanF]

On 3/30/2021 at 5:16 PM, MelisandresBurningPanties said:

disagree completely on qarth : i had not read the books in 2012 and that scene was one of my favourite scenes and now we can look back on it and its become clear  that those things that comprised her ending  were foreshadowed in dany's story and were there from the beginning : ( the writers have also said this) a wrecked throne room and kings landing , absent life and ruined, covered in either snow or ash ( iassumed it was snow from winter and the others, a pity it didnt happen) her being close to gaining the throne but failing to be queen of westeros, rather passing on and seeing her first love and unborn child in the afterlife and finally going north beyond the wall. All things that came to pass, regardless of the manner in which they wrote them. The music ramin djawadi wrote is fantastic, eerie, mystical, and very appropriate, the camera work is great, over all its still one of my favourite scene from GOT. Yes the book scene would have been better but i dont think they could have done it from a budgetary POV at the time and the wolfs head needed to be cut anyway other wise it would spoil too much, and as there were things there that didnt even happen in the series, its probably best they went a different route. Something i wouldnt mind at all in regard to the major beats and the ending, if they had come up with a different resolution as long as it was good and believable , it would at least not spoil the books storylines... for instance i would love to see stannis victorious in the north and facing a conquering targaryen army lead by dany and the hellish hordes of essos. 

I disagree about the foreshadowing.  D & D  had no idea of what the ending would be when they made Season 2.  They only came up with the idea of Jon killing Dany after filming Season 3 (granted, they're probably unreliable commentators).  The context of Dany going beyond the Wall in Season 7 is quite different, nor do Drogo or her unborn child play any further part in the tale.  Back in 2012, the general view was that the throne room scene foreshadowed the Others having reached Kings Landing and bringing snow.

I'll explain what I disliked about the Qarth plot.  Qarth is really weird and mysterious in the books, the people obsessed with pointless etiquette, and nothing is what it seems, and Dany's visions in the H o D are open to more than one interpretation.  Granted, it could probably have been dealt with in two or three episodes, but they could have moved on to ASOS.  Little of that weirdness and mystery appeared in the show.  The two D's disliked the supernatural elements of the books.  What we got instead was (a) pointless conflict, Dany and the Spice King mouthing off at each other (b) a nod to the books that went nowhere (Quaithe)(c) plot holes (Dany's people are murdered in one episode, revived a couple of episodes later, Xaro apparently has no palace guards) (d) unexplained changes in character (Doreah goes from BFF with Dany to a traitor for no reason).  It showed what the two D's would do once they started writing original material.

[Rose of Red Lake]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

D & D  had no idea of what the ending would be when they made Season 2.  They only came up with the idea of Jon killing Dany after filming Season 3 (granted, they're probably unreliable commentators).  

GRRM said D&D know some of the ending for the main characters before that. In a 2011 interview with Hibberd, he assures fans that D&D know the ending of the mains "in case he gets hit by a truck."

It sounds like the show was his insurance policy for that from the very start.

So by S2 that HotU scene could be written if they knew "she destroys KL, doesn't get the throne, dies." "Snow or ash?" is a successful way to misdirect fans from ever thinking Dany would do something like that and inspired it's own speculation/misdirection, just like the books. Then I suppose he gave them more details in S3.  

I doubt they came up with Jon killing Dany on their own. There are textual and thematic hints toward that and it's been a popular fan theory for years. Plus, I can't think of anything fitting Aemon's speech better than Jon making a hard choice between killing his lover or Dany killing his family. Whether or not to save his family from threats has always been his conflict in every book and this was the hardest one.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM said D&D know some of the ending for the main characters before that. In a 2011 interview with Hibberd, he assures fans that D&D know the ending of the mains "in case he gets hit by a truck."

It sounds like the show was his insurance policy for that from the very start.

So by S2 that HotU scene could be written if they knew "she destroys KL, doesn't get the throne, dies." "Snow or ash?" is a successful way to misdirect fans from ever thinking Dany would do something like that and inspired it's own speculation/misdirection, just like the books. Then I suppose he gave them more details in S3.  

I doubt they came up with Jon killing Dany on their own. There are textual and thematic hints toward that and it's been a popular fan theory for years. Plus, I can't think of anything fitting Aemon's speech better than Jon making a hard choice between killing his lover or Dany killing his family. Whether or not to save his family from threats has always been his conflict in every book and this was the hardest one.

It's possible, but it isn't one of the three "Holy Shit" moments.  Or, maybe they thought it was less significant to the plot than the origin of Hodor's nickname, or the fate of Shireen.  I would not put that past them.  They pulled things out of their arses, though.

I'm not convinced that Jon will even be capable of love, following resurrection in the books.  Death and resurrection takes quite a lot away from a person.  I think that any relationship between him and Dany will be a transactional one.

[Jay21]

I don't know how I'd end it.  I wouldn't do half measures like tweaking season 8 though, everything after season 4 would have to be scrapped and rewritten, and we'd do Feast and Dance proper (3 seasons). Then we'd start looking at where this all ends.

[Jaenara Belarys]

On 4/3/2021 at 11:50 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I thought Qarth had some real cheesy moments. It didn't feel like a lived-in world at all. Emilia's acting was bad. Xaro's lines were bad. The scene where the dragons burn "through" Dany to kill the evil warlock was cheesy as hell and we had a huge laugh at that. But yeah, looking back, I do think the foreshadowings were on point and agree with you @MelisandresBurningPanties (lmao your name is ).

 

Agree, except all Emilia needs are posters with pictures of Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal. LOST: Three hatchling dragons. REWARD: Lock in vault with XXD. And yes, @MelisandresBurningPanties name is funny. 

 

My version: Dany takes the Iron Throne in Season 7, since TBH it would be a stomp for Dany.If you don't do the Mad Queen arc (which would be hard for someone like Dumb and Dumber to write competently), you have Jon go south, ask for help, but refuse to bend the knee. Dany flies north, sees the AotD and pledges to fight for the North. Jon bends the knee. Jon forces the idiotic northmen to go south of the Neck. The Dothraki basically just harass the AoTD, after they breach the Wall with the Horn of Winter, along with the dragons. Battle of Moat Cailin, a few hundred archers with catapults, dragons and such hold off the dead for a bit. Then they retreat south. Dany ignites the wildfire that lines the Neck and blows a good portion of the wights to hell. While all this is happening, Jon and Dany have fallen in love, blah blah blah. Final battle at Harrenhal, Jon and Dany kill the NK together on the Isle of Faces. However Dany is injured and revealed to be pregnant. She dies in Jon's arms. Dothraki and Unsullied leave, but not breaking the wheel (How you break the wheel, IDK, I ain't a politicial whiz). Then you do a time jump and do a slow pan over a house with a red door and a lemon tree and hear a baby crying. Credits roll. Obviously, this is done over the course of Seasons 7 and 8. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

My version: Dany takes the Iron Throne in Season 7, since TBH it would be a stomp for Dany.If you don't do the Mad Queen arc (which would be hard for someone like Dumb and Dumber to write competently), you have Jon go south, ask for help, but refuse to bend the knee. Dany flies north, sees the AotD and pledges to fight for the North. Jon bends the knee. Jon forces the idiotic northmen to go south of the Neck. The Dothraki basically just harass the AoTD, after they breach the Wall with the Horn of Winter, along with the dragons. Battle of Moat Cailin, a few hundred archers with catapults, dragons and such hold off the dead for a bit. Then they retreat south. Dany ignites the wildfire that lines the Neck and blows a good portion of the wights to hell. While all this is happening, Jon and Dany have fallen in love, blah blah blah. Final battle at Harrenhal, Jon and Dany kill the NK together on the Isle of Faces. However Dany is injured and revealed to be pregnant. She dies in Jon's arms. Dothraki and Unsullied leave, but not before breaking the wheel (How you break the wheel, IDK, I ain't a politicial whiz). Then you do a time jump and do a slow pan over a house with a red door and a lemon tree and hear a baby crying. Credits roll. Obviously, this is done over the course of Seasons 7 and 8. 

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

I'd have stopped after season 4 and said 'The rest will be done when it's done" and never aired another episode.

[Lord Varys]

On 4/4/2021 at 10:21 PM, SeanF said:

It's possible, but it isn't one of the three "Holy Shit" moments.  Or, maybe they thought it was less significant to the plot than the origin of Hodor's nickname, or the fate of Shireen.  I would not put that past them.  They pulled things out of their arses, though.

I'm not convinced that Jon will even be capable of love, following resurrection in the books.  Death and resurrection takes quite a lot away from a person.  I think that any relationship between him and Dany will be a transactional one.

The shit moments were, apparently, Stannis burning Shireen, 'Hold the door', and Bran being 'king'. Not Daenerys going mad and also not Jon Snow murdering Daenerys.

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The shit moments were, apparently, Stannis burning Shireen, 'Hold the door', and Bran being 'king'. Not Daenerys going mad and also not Jon Snow murdering Daenerys.

I think logical people with a little bit of foresight would probably know there would be a Mad Queen situation and that Jon would kill Dany. Thus, they aren't really surprised about it. 

[GeorgeIAF]

The show was fundamentally wrong planned. When they saw the success it had they should have planned to be a 10 season show with 10 episodes each (maybe 12 in the last 2 seasons) and not rush everything up just so they can end it fast. GRRM should have been even more involved with it the moment it became clear that the show will surpass the books (his fault of being lazy or running into a dead-end). If D&D had other plans they should just hired different showrunners and go from there. They did some good things (skipping unnecesarry 2nd plots going nowhere like Quentin storyline which is one of GRRM biggest faults) but because they rushed everything looked meh and unsatisfying.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

I think logical people with a little bit of foresight would probably know there would be a Mad Queen situation and that Jon would kill Dany. Thus, they aren't really surprised about it. 

There was literally no build-up for that until the later episodes of the last season. The idea that something like this is the endgame of AsoIaF just makes no sense. Even if Dany and/or Jon Snow were to die ... they won't die in this manner.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There was literally no build-up for that until the later episodes of the last season. The idea that something like this is the endgame of AsoIaF just makes no sense. Even if Dany and/or Jon Snow were to die ... they won't die in this manner.

It's hard to imagine that Jon killing Dany is less noteworthy than the three things that were mentioned as Holy Shit! moments.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's hard to imagine that Jon killing Dany is less noteworthy than the three things that were mentioned as Holy Shit! moments.

Both would actually be more noteworthy than those other so-called 'Holy Shit!' moments. Shireen is kind of obvious, anyway, 'Hold the Door' is kind of odd and suprising, and Bran just plain weird. But Dany going mad, Jon and her basically playing no role in the victory over the Others, and Jon killing her while also loving her would be the biggest WTF moments in the entire story.

If that's actually what happens, that is.

[Jaenara Belarys]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was literally no build-up for that until the later episodes of the last season. The idea that something like this is the endgame of AsoIaF just makes no sense. Even if Dany and/or Jon Snow were to die ... they won't die in this manner.

Isn't the Mad Queen theory an old one? If you tie together Jon and Dany, and she goes nuts, with his sense of "duty" and "honor", he'll kill her to save his sisters, IMO. 

[ummester]

On 3/30/2021 at 2:32 AM, SeanF said:

Every character became implausible,and actions stopped having consequences.  Even in Season 6, Arya could be stabbed in the stomach, fall into filthy water, and get better after a night's sleep.

Anyone in Dany's position would have flattened the Red Keep the moment they reached Westeros, and no one would condemn her for it.  No one would criticise a commander in the modern world who used a drone or bomber to destroy a military target, so why would someone with a dragon in a medieval world be expected to operate differently?  All the military strategies became stupid beyond belief.

And, Cersei ought to have been toast, after murdering half the nobility, the equivalent of the Pope and Cardinals, and hundreds of the Smallfolk.  But, nobody minded apart from Olenna Tyrell.  

The awfulness of Season 8 can't be addressed, without going back to the awfulness of Season 7 and beyond.  Every character became a plot point, either forgetting things they had done or knew about in earlier episodes, or becoming uncharacteristically stupid, or being given incredible plot armour.

In a sense, the ending was irrelevant, given the sheer randomness of how they got to it.

This is a good post that I did not read before now. All of these gripes are valid. But, in essence, it just amounts to bad story telling on D&Ds behalf.

GoTs the TV series really jumped the shark at the end of season 4 when skeletons could screech and run around without muscle or organs - which would never have happened in GRRMs writing.

But who is to blame? Sure, we can always point the finger at D&D and now, possibly hysterically, their life as commercial story tellers is totally fucked.  But did GRRM ever know where the magic in his series was going? Did he ever really care about the Others? I dunno - we can argue time will tell - but I recon they all bit off more than they could chew and dropped the ball.

I still grieve because it was a series that started so spectacularly well, in novel and film. Wish I got to write the last 4 seasons Recon I would have done a better job than D&D or GRRM.