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Techmaester

How would you have ended it?

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The endings sort of make sense - my main issue is Jon at the NW again. It's puzzling because Sansa would just pardon him, the Wall no longer serves a purpose, why the wildlings would go further North -- a lot of it is illogical. 

I would have had more Stark scenes and more Lannister scenes. The Starks only have 1 scene together and then 1 at the end! After all this time of waiting them to get back together??

Also, I would have had Cersei and Sansa meet again for the last time--that scene would have been amazing.

Maybe not have Sansa actually apologize to Tyrion about the wedding (wtf??)

I would have had more scenes of Jon actually reacting to his parentage. We know more about how Dany, Tyrion, and Varys feels about it than how Jon himself or his cousin-siblings feel about this MASSIVE news. 

I would have book!Dany's hubris and haughtiness shine through more. Have her mention the blood of the dragon but also make sure audiences know what that means (blood purity and supremacy), have her talk about how they don't get sick (and have her be wrong), have her talk about how she feels like a god high above everyone else (like she thinks in ASOS), have her going on and on about Usurper's dogs.

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On 5/26/2019 at 12:18 PM, RYShh said:

I used the wrong words, I should've said the real bitter sweet ending,

He said LotR was a bitter sweet ending, where Aragorn and Arwen get married, and Aragorn becomes king. The one we get isn't a bitter sweet ending I guess.

Yes, Aragorn reclaims the Kingship of Gondor, marries Arwen, and unites north and south as the Reunited Kingdom.  But when the hobbits, who were definitely more the protagonists of the story than Aragorn, return to their beloved Shire, it has been conquered and oppressed (at least part of it) by Saruman and various evil men.  The hobbits have to fight to reclaim it, and for the first time, war enters the historically peaceful Shire.  They win, and take up their lives.   Frodo, who is the central character of the story, cannot enjoy the peace that he helped to win; he is physically and emotionally worn out and cannot live in Middle-earth; he must leave for Valinor with Gandalf & Galadriel & Elrond (who take with them much, if not all, of the magic of Middle-earth) to be healed there.  And the other Elves who still live in Middle-earth will eventually leave too; because the Age of Men has begun.  There is much joy and relief to be had by most of the characters who survived Sauron's fall, but there is sorrow too.  

So I'm hoping that GRRM will have a satisfying mix of bitter and sweet, not all sweet and not all bitter.  That's assuming that GRRM will actually finish the story - I'm praying he will.

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I can see why HBO had to complete their GOT series. George RR Martin would probably have expected the GOT TV series to have had another 3 seasons. This would have been plenty of time for large character arches, such as Dany going mad, and Bran ending up on the throne. However, HBO could not possibly have kept all the main actors tied to the TV show for much longer. They had been there for 10 years, and most of them were now major film stars.

 

So the HBO TV GOT had to come to a complete end. Unfortunately that meant that the conclusion broadly outlined by George RR Martin could not be achieved in the now shortened time frame. Not accepting this, was what made the HBO TV GOT end in a whimper instead of a bang. It was if the TV show had been speeding down the highway at 100 mph, with SatNav showing almost endless straight road ahead, and suddenly, the road ran out causing an ungraceful slamming of the brakes, with the Costa coffee cups flying out of the cup holders and onto the tables at Winterfell.

 

What should have happened, in my opinion, is that the TV producers should have accepted that their conclusion could not be the same as George RR Martin's, and should have stopped trying to drive the show in that direction with so little time left. Instead they should have steered the show to the classic big bang ending, which would have meant keeping the heroes as heroes and the villains remaining as villains, vanquished at the end.

 

I think they could have saved the show by just modifying the last two episodes. They could have had Dany pull back from the brink, and allowed her character to remain as the kick ass hero she was. In addition, Dany would get to sit on the iron throne and rule as the queen of the seven kingdoms. This had to happen, to complete her story line. Cersei should have been given a chance to be cunning and devious to the end, and Jon Snow should have been seen by all to be Eddard Targaryen.

 

I put together a short story of how this might have come about, if you wish to read it. I imagined that HBO could be so devious as to hide a twist to the plot in plain site for the whole of the season in the middle of the title sequences, the single scorpion in a wooden hut unseen from the air.

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On 5/26/2019 at 5:30 PM, JagLover said:

The problem with much of the analysis I have seen elsewhere, and suggested improvements, is that the show died from a narrative cohesion point of view mid way through S7, with Dany inexplicable not taking KLs and the whole catch a Wight plot. I watched S8 without much enthusiasm and just for the battles really. GOT died for me then, not in S8Ep5. 

The way to fix things so that character actions make sense is to return to that point and start again. So Dany takes KL, and we have a few episodes devoted to the fall of Cersei, perhaps ones that give Cersei more to do than stand by a window drinking wine.

Season eight then by necessity at least one or two episodes longer and give us a proper battle against the NK, rather than the damp squib we have.  Leaving Dany in an even more desperate situation than in the show, in that she has the North and KL, but the vast majority of her army has been wiped out. Leading to the whole needing to rule by fear bit to bring the rest of the lords inline. If you are going to show the more ruthless and dangerous Dany, then have her torch another city that fails submit in time, creating a similar scenario. Personally I would then have preferred a more Michael Corleone ending as an increasingly dark Dany rules over all as many of our characters look at her with fear. That would have fit more the theme of the show and books that this isn't a fairy-tale and the strongest and most ruthless rise to the top.  

 

I believe that a beter dialog at Dragonstone, could have made more sense.

 Dany wanted to conqure KingsLanding. Jon felt sure that the whight walkers had to be delt with first. So why did they go and get a whight to show Cerci?

1. It would take only about 3 to 5 days to get the Dothraki herd and Unsullied army to be outside Kinglanding menacing Cerci. Cerci knows this.

2. It would take over a well over a week to march the unsullied and Dothraki herd upto the Wall. In all that time they would be exposed to attck on their flanks by the Lanister army. Dany knows this.

3. It would make sense to Cerci to offer a truce and allow Dany's army to pass by and go onward to the wall. Dany's army weeks away up north, would be beter than Dany's army just a few days from her front door. Cerci would know this.

4. This raises 2 obvious questions. Why would Dany want to move move her entire army up north away from  her goal in Kingslanding? And why would Cerci beleive that Dany's army was going to pass on by with attacking Kingslanding?

Answers:

a. Dany promised her Dothraki lands to ride on, battles to win. At the moment her army is idle, caged by the limited bounds of Dragonstone. Dany needs to get her army onto Westeros mainland, but as soon as that happens, the Lanester army will respond and battle will ensue.

b. Capture a whight and show it to Cerci, thus giving here proof that Dany's army is indeed going to the North to battle the army of the dead.

c. Dany is aware, that she probably only needs her dragons to win her Kingslanding. Dany really needs to get the Dothraki onto Westeros and there is ample land to ride on in the North.

 

Edited by Dominic

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Oh. Good question!! Danerys should have publicly executed Tyrion for his betrayal. I would have killed Jon at Winterfell. Jorah should have survived and been the one to kill Danerys at the end. It would have been truly heartbreaking to see a disallusioned but still completely in-love Jorah kill Danerys. I'd then have Drogon burn him alive while holding her. Upon realizing Danerys is dead the Unsullied and the Dothraki break ranks and pillage the countryside raping and murdering. The Iron born fuck-off to their little island to wait out the carnage and maybe raid the North again. War engulfs the seven Kingdoms once more necessitating fractured armies to join together to rid the country of foriegn occupation. Many alliances are formed and many new leaders rise to prominance in this campaign. One of which is Gendry. Mirroring Robert's Rebellion he becomes a great warrior and an icon for the common people. 

The North would have remained in the Seven Kingdoms. Gendry would be named King with Sansa as Queen. Gendry as the last Baratheon has the birthright, he understands the common people and knows compassion. Sansa knows the politics and how to govern. Together they would realize Robert and Eddard's shared vision of a united future between house Baratheon and house Stark. The North is appeased with a Stark in the Red Keep and future royalty on the throne. It is, above all a political marriage just like Ned and Cat. Gendry gives up his love for Arya for the good of the realm. He comes to embody all the positive attributes of the Baratheon family; Robert's strength, Stannis' duty-bound justice and Renly's likeability. Sansa would be the true power in the Seven Kingdoms. She knows the game and how to play it.

Joffry, Tommen and Cercei are struck from the royal record and labeled as the userpers they were. Stannis is pothumesly recorded as the second King in the Baratheon dynasty. Melesandre's prophecy fulfilled. Davos is made Hand of the King fulfilling Stannis' pledge. With house Targaryen and house Lannister extinct a new house is appointed Warden of the West and the royal family maintains rightful possession of Dragonstone.

That's really it. Jon dies in ep 3. Jorah kills Danerys in ep 6. Gendry and Sansa rule together.

Edited by Lord Stannis-The True King

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Dany is pregnant with Jon's child.  Team Dany wins battle at King's Landing but Dany is injured during battle.  Dany goes into labor and has son.  She keeps bleeding and before she dies, she makes Jon promise to tell their son all about her. After her death, the others want to make Jon king but he refuses and rides north while the others are deciding who should rule.  Final scene is of Jon sitting in a tent in the north with his 7 year old son Rhaegar sitting next to ghost while Jon is telling Rhaegar about Dany.

The whole series is about people playing the game of thrones and I think it would be neat if at the end they agreed on one person and that person decided it wasn't worth it and just walked away from it.

Edited by Raebo
Added statement.

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People can't let Dany go eh? They can't accept that sometimes (perhaps ofttimes) entitlement and idealism can turn a person bad? They can't accept that changing yourself is more important than changing the world?

Guess that is part of why our species is so fucked now - and part of what GRRM and D&D were trying to say.

 

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On 8/16/2020 at 11:06 AM, ummester said:

People can't let Dany go eh? They can't accept that sometimes (perhaps ofttimes) entitlement and idealism can turn a person bad? They can't accept that changing yourself is more important than changing the world?

Guess that is part of why our species is so fucked now - and part of what GRRM and D&D were trying to say.

 

I just don't like how all the redeeming story lines seem to be for the men (Jaime, Jorah and Sandor in particular) while the one moment where a good character goes bad ends up being the most powerful woman in the series. It jarred me a bit. No doubt, I don't mind Daenerys ending up going mad, but I think they should have balanced it out by having Tyrion be purposely sabotaging her. Make it where he is not as innocent as he likes people to believe him to be.

During season 7, I was really thinking they were going to go the route of Tyrion secretly plotting against Daenerys the whole time. She loses her main three allies, Dorne, The Greyjoys and High Garden all because Tyrion secretly sent messages to Jaime/Cersei to let them know of their battle plans. He convinced Dany to bring Jon in probably because he thought he could manipulate Jon, but when Daenerys started to ask him for advice, Tyrion realizes he messed up. When she decides to go after the Lannisters after the High Garden raid, the reason why Tyrion objects because he knows he won't be able to send a message in time to warn them. And, at the very end of season 7, him watching Jon go into Dany's bedroom he realized he is loosing his advantage point, and it makes all the more sense why he was so quick to get on the bandwagon of using Jon's true heritage to tear him away from Dany. 

So, yeah one of the main changes I would have made is make it more clear that Tyrion is not as good as people think. He is very much playing the Game of Thrones as his father and sister were. He is true in his emotions that he does have a soft spot for cripples, bastards and broken things, but he also does like his lifestyle of being the hero and being a Lannister, and Dany was nothing more than a means to an end.  

Another major change would be Arya. Being alone in the world is a terrible thing and I would have thought it be more sweet to either have Gendry go with her on her journeys, or have her come pick Jon up at Hardhome and then they go off to the new worlds.

And the big one, the series starts with the White Walkers, it should end with the White Walkers and with Bran showing blue eyes in the end on the throne...

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Daenerys getting more and more crazy and despotic was a 'must have' for every close reader of the books, me thinks.
But it felt like the undeads' motivation was too shallow, in the end. I know that Martin tried to break with many narrative traditions throughout his ASoIaF, but still, I missed the higher purpose of the undead storming the Seven Kindoms.

Maybe there should have been a fight between Nightking/WhiteWalkers on the one side and Daenerys/Melissandre/Dondarrion et al on the other, leading to the destruction of both sides.

Would that been too 'high fantasy'... ?

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On 6/16/2019 at 2:18 PM, nyser1 said:

Reach - Introduce a Hightower

 

Half the houses in the Reach has Tyrell blood, but some second son would probably be best from House Hightower.

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On 2/26/2020 at 12:11 PM, Dominic said:

I can see why HBO had to complete their GOT series. George RR Martin would probably have expected the GOT TV series to have had another 3 seasons. This would have been plenty of time for large character arches, such as Dany going mad, and Bran ending up on the throne. However, HBO could not possibly have kept all the main actors tied to the TV show for much longer. They had been there for 10 years, and most of them were now major film stars.

Hmmm, but you are talking about the most famous TV series of all times.

HBO wants to make money. Ending GOT that fast - ending GOT, period - was not a smart move imho.

Hundreds of millions of dollars are used to churn out movie series with superstars. GOT still didn't play on that budget level.

 

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For my ending to work, Lady S would need to show up at the end of season 4 and Tysha would be bought up before Tyrion escapes. Then just about everything from s5 onwards would have to be changed resulting in multiple kings and a queen on the iron throne, and a safe but ruined and mostly dead population in Westeros being abandoned by whoever survives with Jon leaving rather than being used in the game of thrones.

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On 3/26/2021 at 1:49 PM, Ghostlydragon said:

For my ending to work, Lady S would need to show up at the end of season 4 and Tysha would be bought up before Tyrion escapes. Then just about everything from s5 onwards would have to be changed resulting in multiple kings and a queen on the iron throne, and a safe but ruined and mostly dead population in Westeros being abandoned by whoever survives with Jon leaving rather than being used in the game of thrones.

Yes, I don't think you can change the ending without going back three or four seasons, which is when the rot set in.

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Some genuinely good ideas here! Mostly all better than the ending-that-sucked. 

@Dominic, I see your point about the showrunners not trying to fit GRRM's ending notes into the show, and just going on their own path. That would have actually worked out really well for a number of reasons - the ending would have hopefully been logical, coherent and in keeping with the characters as developed through 8 seasons, and readers would've felt reassured that the book ending would be very different, which would in my view be a positive thing. However I don't think the showrunners would have been interested because seemed so overly invested in 'shock!subversion!' that anything logical in the way of an ending would probably not work for them.

 

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2 hours ago, Crixus said:

Some genuinely good ideas here! Mostly all better than the ending-that-sucked. 

@Dominic, I see your point about the showrunners not trying to fit GRRM's ending notes into the show, and just going on their own path. That would have actually worked out really well for a number of reasons - the ending would have hopefully been logical, coherent and in keeping with the characters as developed through 8 seasons, and readers would've felt reassured that the book ending would be very different, which would in my view be a positive thing. However I don't think the showrunners would have been interested because seemed so overly invested in 'shock!subversion!' that anything logical in the way of an ending would probably not work for them.

 

Every character became implausible,and actions stopped having consequences.  Even in Season 6, Arya could be stabbed in the stomach, fall into filthy water, and get better after a night's sleep.

Anyone in Dany's position would have flattened the Red Keep the moment they reached Westeros, and no one would condemn her for it.  No one would criticise a commander in the modern world who used a drone or bomber to destroy a military target, so why would someone with a dragon in a medieval world be expected to operate differently?  All the military strategies became stupid beyond belief.

And, Cersei ought to have been toast, after murdering half the nobility, the equivalent of the Pope and Cardinals, and hundreds of the Smallfolk.  But, nobody minded apart from Olenna Tyrell.  

The awfulness of Season 8 can't be addressed, without going back to the awfulness of Season 7 and beyond.  Every character became a plot point, either forgetting things they had done or knew about in earlier episodes, or becoming uncharacteristically stupid, or being given incredible plot armour.

In a sense, the ending was irrelevant, given the sheer randomness of how they got to it.

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Every character became implausible,and actions stopped having consequences.  Even in Season 6, Arya could be stabbed in the stomach, fall into filthy water, and get better after a night's sleep.

 

Yep, it should take days for her to get better. Medieval healing isn't that good and we've heard that if you get stabbed where Arya got stabbed you're dead.

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, Cersei ought to have been toast, after murdering half the nobility, the equivalent of the Pope and Cardinals, and hundreds of the Smallfolk.  But, nobody minded apart from Olenna Tyrell.  

 

True, that's not very realistic.

 

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2 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Yep, it should take days for her to get better. Medieval healing isn't that good and we've heard that if you get stabbed where Arya got stabbed you're dead.

True, that's not very realistic.

 

Even today, knife wounds to the stomach are the most dangerous, both because of damage to vital organs, and infection.  In a medieval world, without penicillin, they would almost invariably be fatal.  Especially, when you fall into a germ-ridden canal.

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4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Even today, knife wounds to the stomach are the most dangerous, both because of damage to vital organs, and infection.  In a medieval world, without penicillin, they would almost invariably be fatal.  Especially, when you fall into a germ-ridden canal.

Yep. Drogo died of pretty much the same injury Arya got. Drogo died and it was realistic for any era.

But clearly Arya is more powerful than Drogo and can defy the laws of nature. Oh wait, she had ridiculous plot armour and was worshipped by D&D and Cogman (or rather Masie Williams is worshipped).

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