So what was the third "oh shit" moment?

[CrypticWeirwood]

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Nevertheless, greenseers wouldn't have the power to animate and control human bodies. That would be skinchanger territory.

All greenseers are skinchangers par excellence.

[Beardy the Wildling]

5 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

All greenseers are skinchangers par excellence.

Not Jojen Reed; he seems to only receive visions, both book and show.

[btfu806]

12 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I also believe that he will first link up with and then marry Cersei Lannister. The two will tag-team Aegon while Daenerys, Jon and Tyrion are far away, busy dealing with the Others. And then they will turn King's Landing into a hellzone and make the Red Keep live up to its name. Thanks to Aeron's drug-induced vision, I believe Euron will be sitting the Iron Throne as the King of Westeros with Cersei as his Queen. Not that Cersei will last too long after that but...still. Girl, you came around full circle.

Interesting. So do you think Aegon will sit on the throne at all? Or Euron will defeat him (with Cersei as help). Then it just goes from Cersei to Euron (probably assuming she dies).

[BalerionTheCat]

Euron has plans for Daenerys. I don't see why he would settle for Cersei.

I believe my "oh shit" will be the Short Night and the doom of humankind, dealt with a single knife stoke by a lucky girl.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/20/2019 at 9:02 AM, btfu806 said:

Interesting. So do you think Aegon will sit on the throne at all?

Oh absolutely.

Euron has his hands full. If he had set out for Meereen as he originally intended, he might've caught on to Aegon and confronted him right then and there.

However, Euron is set to have his hands full in the Redwyne Straits, the Whispering Sound and then Oldtown proper. And then you have to remember that Asha can invalidate the previous Kingsmoot with a new one now that she has found Theon. If they survive the Battle of Winterfell (more than likely) and make it to the Iron Islands (guaranteed if they survive the Battle of Winterfell), then you have another Kingsmoot. Euron absolutely has to address that.

And then he has Victarion to worry about. Victarion is probably going to end up marrying Daenerys (or should I say, Daenerys will be marrying him) and they will be coming back to Westeros with a gigantic ass navy: the Iron Fleet plus whatever other ships from Qarth, Lys, Tyrosh, Volantis the two of them buy, take or receive as gifts.

Euron isn't going to have the time to take Aegon on (especially since Euron's military might is naval and Aegon's might is land-based) with his own family members coming for his neck.

That's why he will need Cersei and the Westerlands.

On 6/20/2019 at 9:02 AM, btfu806 said:

Or Euron will defeat him (with Cersei as help). Then it just goes from Cersei to Euron (probably assuming she dies).

I think Euron will defeat him but only after Jon gets Aegon and Daenerys to either make peace or, at least, agree to a truce. Maybe Jon takes a page out of Catelyn's book by suggesting to call for a Great Council. Except unlike Robb, Daenerys will listen. Euron, Cersei and Jaime will likely appear for the Great Council (LOL at the drama that will ensue) and they will play like they are on board. Only to backstab everyone and gang up on Aegon.

That's probably where Aegon's reign ends and Euron's reign begins.

On 6/20/2019 at 5:10 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Euron has plans for Daenerys. I don't see why he would settle for Cersei.

I believe my "oh shit" will be the Short Night and the doom of humankind, dealt with a single knife stoke by a lucky girl.

He would settle for Cersei because he has no other alternative.

Daenerys didn't even want to get too involved with Quentyn for God's sake and there was nothing wrong with Quentyn. Daenerys would never join herself with Euron. He has way too much in common with the slavers and mercenaries she encountered in Slaver's Bay and the magic-loving weirdos that nearly killed her in Qarth. And after she survives the Dothraki Sea for the second time, she's definitely not going to want to mess with him. In fact, the all-new, all-different Dany will probably try to kill him on sight.

That's probably where the Dragonpit scenes in season 7 comes from.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/19/2019 at 11:28 PM, CrypticWeirwood said:

All greenseers are skinchangers par excellence.

You know I heard that but then you have Targaryens like Daenerys, Daenys the Dreamer, Daemon II, Daeron, etc. who obviously have green dreams with no evidence of skinchanging powers. And very little First Men blood at that.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys would never join herself with Euron. He has way too much in common with the slavers and mercenaries she encountered in Slaver's Bay and the magic-loving weirdos that nearly killed her in Qarth.

I don't know if he will succeed, or how, but he will not give her the choice. I believe he has all the powers he claims to have. Yes, he deals, in slavery, apparently in gods slavery. Moqorro and Red Priests are against him. But I believe he knows as much as them.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't know if he will succeed, or how, but he will not give her the choice. I believe he has all the powers he claims to have. Yes, he deals, in slavery, apparently in gods slavery. Moqorro and Red Priests are against him. But I believe he knows as much as them.

Not give her the choice? I think you are getting Daenerys confused with Sansa.

Daenerys is not some maiden that can be carried off and locked away in a tower where she must rely on her wits.

Daenerys not going anywhere she doesn't want to go. She hasn't gone anywhere she doesn't want to go since the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

If Euron wants to take Daenerys, he's going to have to put himself through a long, bloody war that he can't win. Euron relies on magic yes but his military might is sea-based. And Daenerys, by the end of The Winds of Winter, is going to be the most powerful woman in the world with a infantry, a navy, a cavalry and an air force...

[BalerionTheCat]

11 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Not give her the choice? I think you are getting Daenerys confused with Sansa.

You mean show Sansa?

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys is not some maiden that can be carried off and locked away in a tower where she must rely on her wits.

No, indeed.

13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys not going anywhere she doesn't want to go. She hasn't gone anywhere she doesn't want to go since the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

Did she chose to return to the Dothrakis? Very few, if any, go where they want in ASoIaf.

[BlackLightning]

19 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

You mean show Sansa?

No, indeed.

Did she chose to return to the Dothrakis?

Well, it looks like in the books, Daenerys will be choosing to go to Vaes Dothrak.

In the books, she stands before 20 riders with her dragon at her back after they had watched her eat a cooked horse's heart alongside Drogon. In the show, there was an entire khalasar of at least a thousand and she was alone.

Two completely different circumstances. In one of them, Daenerys is in a position of power.

19 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Very few, if any, go where they want in ASoIaf.

This is true.

But Daenerys is one of those few.

Seriously, she constantly does the unexpected and makes her own path. That's part of the reason why Varys and Illyrio are fumbling so much, why Barristan and Quentyn get so frustrated, why Tyrion will likely resent her and why everyone wants her dead: she is unpredictable and uncontrollable. She does what she wants when she wants where she wants. And she consistently breaks social norms and does the impossible.

They never thought she was capable of surviving beyond the trip to Vaes Dothrak.

If Euron thinks Daenerys will be easy pickings, he'll have another thing coming.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Well, it looks like in the books, Daenerys will be choosing to go to Vaes Dothrak.

She will go to Vaes Dothrak. Her choice? After what she left in Meereen? I'm not sure, even if she end enjoying the trip. And return stronger and in a position of power.

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

But Daenerys is one of those few.

Generally it is the bad guys who get what they want... until they die too.

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

She does what she wants when she wants where she wants.

Not that much. She is mostly unpredictable, yes. But some are playing her. The Green Grace at least, maybe the Shavepate, maybe some slaves with ambitions. Littlefinger's "The players and the pieces.".  Would you think Meereen's Game of Thrones is less complex than Westeros'? Don't you think they are preparing for the vacuum of power when she will leave? What is Meereen's Knot exactly?

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If Euron thinks Daenerys will be easy pickings, he'll have another thing coming.

I doubt he will get exactly what he expects, whatever he expects. Maybe he just wants the dragons. But he is one of the true players, and Cersei would be just trash for him... except she is also a daughter of Eris II.

[BlackLightning]

22 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

She will go to Vaes Dothrak. Her choice? After what she left in Meereen? I'm not sure, even if she end enjoying the trip. And return stronger and in a position of power.

Generally it is the bad guys who get what they want... until they die too.

Not that much. She is mostly unpredictable, yes. But some are playing her. The Green Grace at least, maybe the Shavepate, maybe some slaves with ambitions. Littlefinger's "The players and the pieces.".  Would you think Meereen's Game of Thrones is less complex than Westeros'? Don't you think they are preparing for the vacuum of power when she will leave? What is Meereen's Knot exactly?

I doubt he will get exactly what he expects, whatever he expects. Maybe he just wants the dragons. But he is one of the true players, and Cersei would be just trash for him... except she is also a daughter of Eris II.

Meh. It's more poignant for Cersei to be Tywin's daughter than for her to be the daughter of Aerys II. Tywin's legacy ruined by his own legacy (i.e. trueborn children) is poetic justice.

Cersei isn't completely trash to him. House Lannister is filthy rich. They are literally sitting on top of several untapped gold mines. Money might just solve a lot of Euron's problems. Namely in terms of food, weapons and ships.

The bad guys get what they want? Uh, no...the vast majority of them don't. Not in this story. That's the whole point of having people like Cersei as POVs. They don't get what they want because they want more.

Hold your horses: I didn't say that Daenerys gets everything that she wants or that she isn't being played. She actually doesn't want to be a queen or a conqueror. All she wants is for herself and everyone to have a family and a home and to be safe. That's literally all she wants. For people to be happy, safe and loved in their own "house with a red door."

Of course, she can't make that dream come true without being a queen or a conqueror. But she does the things she doesn't want to do anything because she wants to see her dream fulfilled and it puts her that much closer to seeing it true.

In any  tends not to go to places she doesn't want to go. She may acquiesce and compromise away but she's not going to just be a doormat and be carried off against her will.

But Daenerys is only getting played because she unconsciously wants to get played. That's why she was like "f--- Meereen" at the end because she knew that she was getting played and she was tired.

But yeah....I actually think the Essosi Game of Thrones is much more complex than Westerosi Game of Thrones. It's part of the reason why Dance and Winds are taking so long. He made the game of thrones in Essos much more complicated than the one in Westeros with only one POV. Why else have Victarion, Quentyn, Tyrion come all the way to Meereen when Dany could've met them halfway in Volantis or Pentos? Why did Barristan become a POV? It's tough.

[BalerionTheCat]

22 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Tywin's legacy ruined by his own legacy (i.e. trueborn children) is poetic justice.

IMO, the irony is, the one Tywin despised was his only true son. The Lannister's ruin will come from him. If one survives and get Casterly Rock, it will be Jaime. But he is not his son.

22 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

All she wants is for herself and everyone to have a family and a home and to be safe.

It was what she wanted when she was a little girl. But she started things, wars, conquests, she didn't want. Now she is lost and afraid. And believe she can only go forward. Which is madness, nightmare. The show did it poorly, without the Meereen's knot, without fAgeon, without the Red Priests zealotry, without Euron, without the Pale Mare, but it will probably end badly for her.

[BlackLightning]

On 6/25/2019 at 2:57 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

It was what she wanted when she was a little girl. But she started things, wars, conquests, she didn't want. Now she is lost and afraid. And believe she can only go forward. Which is madness, nightmare. The show did it poorly, without the Meereenese knot, without fAgeon, without the Red Priests zealotry, without Euron, without the Pale Mare, but it will probably end badly for her.

Daenerys still wants those things. Frankly, she couldn't have gotten any of those things without doing things she doesn't want to do: wars, conquests. Can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs.

I agree that Daenerys will meet a bitter end but I think it will be more bittersweet than bitter (aka tragic). Remember, she dreams of a pretty quaint house with a red door and a lemon tree outside her window. By themselves, lemons have an overpowering sour taste that makes them bitter and impossible to eat. But if you take a little time to put in a little work, they make for fantastic delicacies and refreshing beverages.

That's basically the end of Daenerys.

She is going to fall in love with Jon Snow (probably he'll be legitimized as Jon Stark) and meet his family in the last book. They will remind her of what she has lost and what she really wants: a family and a home. It'll be too late for her to undo what she has done and she might not have the time or the capital to do what she wants but she'll still have time to lay the groundwork for what she always wanted.

If anyone is into astrology (or even slightly familiar with it), Daenerys is an Aries Sun with a Pisces Mercury, Aries Venus, Taurus Mars, Aquarius Jupiter, Capricorn Neptune, Scorpio Pluto and a Libra Ascendant. But her Moon sign is in Cancer.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree that Daenerys will meet a bitter end but I think it will be more bittersweet than bitter (aka tragic).

I don't know if it will be as bad in the books. If it will end "bittersweet" rather than "fucking mad". But GRRM was setting Meereen and everything in Daenerys's path to piss her grand. To give her cause to nuke everything. And from our beloved dead characters, errors are generally payed big in GRRM's story.

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

She is going to fall in love with Jon Snow

Concerning a love affair with Jon. I don't know either. But I don't like it at all. I see them opposite regarding free will and the shaping of others life, of imposing oneself to others. I'm sure they will meet and have dealings with each other. But I don't like the idea of Jon loving this woman. Daenerys previous love affairs were monsters, Khal Drogo and Daario. The books have Val. And to me, Val is the woman matching Jon. Period.

[BalerionTheCat]

2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys still wants those things. Frankly, she couldn't have gotten any of those things without doing things she doesn't want to do:

Then she should not have done it.

[SeanF]

Dany chose her path when she birthed the dragons.  That path does not lead to the house with the red door.

[Br16]

On 7/3/2019 at 3:53 PM, SeanF said:

Dany chose her path when she birthed the dragons.  That path does not lead to the house with the red door.

Good point, she had the choice to sell the dragon eggs and buy real estate in Braavos, or hatch them. 

Also, when Viserys was trying to steal her eggs, he said that if he sold one, he could buy a ship, sell two a ship and an army, three would get him a very large army. That seems to imply if he sold three, he would get a big sellsword army but one ship only. I knew he was speaking casually, but still sounded odd.

[Br16]

On 7/3/2019 at 1:32 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

If anyone is into astrology (or even slightly familiar with it), Daenerys is an Aries Sun...

Bet Tywin's chart got Saturn and Capricorn all over it.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 7/2/2019 at 1:33 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

The books have Val. And to me, Val is the woman matching Jon. Period.

I dont know, he needs to be challenged on his erroneous assumptions that the only useful women are warrior women. Val and to some extent Dany only reinforce that belief. He keeps trashing women who sit in towers and blushing maids. Well, the woman he just described is his sister Sansa. No skill at arms but useful in the political game. He definitely needed that in a partner.