So what was the third "oh shit" moment?

[The Fattest Leech]

When asked about Jon and Val being together, GRRM responded rather favorably. No, he didn’t give his plot away, but he did actually answer some questions about the two being together. 

and as far as the show goes, Val was there just Plotzeed up into other show arcs, same as Aegon 6, Stoneheart, Jon Con, and plenty of other book characters. 

And showJon went with the free folk at the end... hmmm 

[Rose of Red Lake]

22 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

When asked about Jon and Val being together, GRRM responded rather favorably. No, he didn’t give his plot away, but he did actually answer some questions about the two being together. 

and as far as the show goes, Val was there just Plotzeed up into other show arcs, same as Aegon 6, Stoneheart, Jon Con, and plenty of other book characters. 

And showJon went with the free folk at the end... hmmm 

Yeah I know what he said to some fan, but I dont care. Jon should be challenged on his attitude toward women, not confirmed. Val is a stereotypical warrior woman, without Ygritte's personality. It's like wildling cardboard. Not very exciting and quite dull. Jon wants to romance someone and every wildling woman finds that stupid and silly. This isn't good chemistry. Plus she wants to kill kids on site. Maybe Jon should look for another type.

[kissdbyfire]

Val is a warrior? Since when? Is Winds out and Val is now a spearwife, and I'm in the dark about all of this? 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Val is a warrior? Since when? Is Winds out and Val is now a spearwife, and I'm in the dark about all of this? 

 

Yeah, he calls her a warrior princess. The cheesy Xena implications are there. In ADWD, Jon III, Val effectively uses a soldier's own dagger against him, nearly killing him. She also talks about kneeling but rising with a blade in hand like she's going to cut people's throats. It's tedious and repetitive like Ygritte all over again. 

[The Fattest Leech]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Val is a warrior? Since when? Is Winds out and Val is now a spearwife, and I'm in the dark about all of this? 

 

Right! Since when has Val used a spear or sword? She’s shown to be smart and witty when it comes to politics, just as what Jon needs. Ghost likes her naturally as opposed to Mel who uses tricks and glamours. 

Basically Val is a “Warrior” in the same way Nymeria was a “warrior”. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, he calls her a warrior princess. The cheesy Xena implications are there. In ADWD, Jon III, Val effectively uses a soldier's own dagger against him, nearly killing him. She also talks about kneeling but rising with a blade in hand like she's going to cut people's throats. It's tedious and repetitive like Ygritte all over again. 

Jon uses a description. And yes, i am sure Val can handle herself quite well. Still, that doesn't make her an actual warrior.

And Jon and Val is boring whereas sibling-fucking incest w/ the sibling he relates to the least is fresh and awesome.

[The Fattest Leech]

21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah I know what he said to some fan, but I dont care

Wow and wooow! The word of Martin means crap then? Good to know. 

21 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

. Jon should be challenged on his attitude toward women, not confirmed. Val is a stereotypical warrior woman, without Ygritte's personality. It's like wildling cardboard. Not very exciting and quite dull. Jon wants to romance someone and every wildling woman finds that stupid and silly. This isn't good chemistry. Plus she wants to kill kids on site. Maybe Jon should look for another type.

What you think Jon should be challenged in makes no sense for the story and is a weird assumption to make. Val is not stereotypical by any means. She’s not a brute in a bikini, not Olenna, not fiery Cersei or Dany, and not in to incest. Val is the exact type Martin always pairs with his Jon types. 

And Val doesn’t want to kill kids on site. Wtf? Have you read how greyscale is handled all over the world? Is this any different or worse or better? What experience does Val and the free folk have with greyscale that Jon has? Everything! Jon has zero experience with the disease while Val and FF have generations of it.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Jon uses a description. And yes, i am sure Val can handle herself quite well. Still, that doesn't make her an actual warrior.

And Jon and Val is boring whereas sibling-fucking incest w/ the sibling he relates to the least is fresh and awesome.

It's kind of hard to see him with women who either want to kill kids or will kill kids. And old men (Ygritte). I guess murder turns him on?

(NOT)

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is the exact type Martin always pairs with his Jon types. 

Ew. Women arent a TYPE.

Jon thinks one type of woman is awesome and another is useless. If this is GRRM's view, he can kindly fuck off. 

Jon needs to be challenged on this. Challenged = interesting.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's kind of hard to see him with women who either want to kill kids or will kill kids. And old men (Ygritte). I guess murder turns him on?

(NOT)

Ew. Women arent a TYPE.

Jon thinks one type of woman is awesome and another is useless. If this is GRRM's view, he can kindly fuck off. 

Jon needs to be challenged on this. Challenged = interesting.

 

Type is in the literary archetype. We are taking about literature after all. Read more Martin outside of ASOIAF and you’ll see it plain as day. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's kind of hard to see him with women who either want to kill kids or will kill kids. And old men (Ygritte). I guess murder turns him on?

(NOT)

Ew. Women arent a TYPE.

Jon thinks one type of woman is awesome and another is useless. If this is GRRM's view, he can kindly fuck off. 

And this is a bad take on Jon. He puts women and young girls in charge of castles and (minor based on age) positions in the Night’s Watch. Jon is the closest to equal primogeniture as it comes in this world. 

2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon needs to be challenged on this. Challenged = interesting.

 

There ain’t time or reason. The story is only lasting two more books with two huge battles and a wounded Jon to deal with first before the so called Dothraki “invasion “ as GRRM called it. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And this is a bad take on Jon. He puts women and young girls in charge of castles and (minor based on age) positions in the Night’s Watch. Jon is the closest to equal primogeniture as it comes in this world. 

He says he doesn't need blushing maids, he needs fighters. Putting women with only masculine traits in charge of things...eh. I detect an anti-feminine bias. He has limitations in his imagination here. Maybe those maids can you know...sew the clothes they need for Winter? 

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There ain’t time or reason. The story is only lasting two more books with two huge battles and a wounded Jon to deal with first before the so called Dothraki “invasion “ as GRRM called it. 

Oh, I think he will learn how useful female political advisors who have no skill at arms can be, eventually. Plenty of time for that lesson. Just unfortunate if he has to learn it at all.

[Rose of Red Lake]

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Type is in the literary archetype. We are taking about literature after all. Read more Martin outside of ASOIAF and you’ll see it plain as day. 

I beg to differ. The tom boy vs. girly girl isn't great literature. It's dated gender politics from the 90s.

With Val, the tom boy is now just an attractive woman. Honestly you could replace her with a Sand Snake and there would be no difference. 

I assume the author is aware that Jon is wrong in his thinking here, but maybe not. 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He says he doesn't need blushing maids, he needs fighters.

(prefacing this by stating the show dumbed Jon and Bran down in the learning department making them nothing more than floppy dolls with pull-strings in their backs that has them on drooling repeat... but anyway...)

And? For context, what is that actual full text and situation?

Jon is about the only one, and one in a power position, that actually understands the threat of the Others. No, he does not at this moment in time need someone who plays the part of a southron politic person- whether a blushing maid or a traitorous Janos Slynt; people distracting from the true purpose of the NW. Instead Jon admits all sorts to the watch to work together to save humanity (mist likely how it was the first time around, NOT as how the NW de-volved into). History is in a little bit of a repeat here with the bits and pieces of the past we get are telling the current/near future of the story.

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Putting women with only masculine traits in charge of things...eh.

Are you speaking of Morna? She is far from "only masculine". She is a woman, probably woods witch/healer (traditionally feminine), connected to old gods/weirwood symbolism, and she is a mother. Jon lets her settle her own people at Queensgate, something unheard of in modern ASOIAF times (but again, probably closer to how the NW was originally operating).

Is there someone else you were thinking of instead?

Jon even merges two different people together when he marries Alys Karstark to a Thenn in order to avoid a power-usurp-incest situation at Karhold. There is a line in the story that this is something a "king" would do.

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I detect an anti-feminine bias.

Strong disagree.

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He has limitations in his imagination here. Maybe those maids can you know...sew the clothes they need for Winter? 

Sure, just as Satin can do more than just be a sex worker. It takes all kinds. Donnel Noye was a one armed armorer. It takes all kinds. I am sure then males can sew as well. In fact, I think we do get that detail in the books somewhere.

This is one of Jon's first lessons at the wall. Here is just a small bit, but the whole scene is very telling:

A Game of Thrones - Jon V

Maester Aemon touched his own collar lightly, his bony, wrinkled finger stroking the heavy metal links. "Go on."

"He told me that a maester's collar is made of chain to remind him that he is sworn to serve," Jon said, remembering. "I asked why each link was a different metal. A silver chain would look much finer with his grey robes, I said. Maester Luwin laughed. A maester forges his chain with study, he told me. The different metals are each a different kind of learning, gold for the study of money and accounts, silver for healing, iron for warcraft. And he said there were other meanings as well. The collar is supposed to remind a maester of the realm he serves, isn't that so? Lords are gold and knights steel, but two links can't make a chain. You also need silver and iron and lead, tin and copper and bronze and all the rest, and those are farmers and smiths and merchants and the like. A chain needs all sorts of metals, and a land needs all sorts of people."

Maester Aemon smiled. "And so?"

9 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Oh, I think he will learn how useful female political advisors who have no skill at arms can be, eventually. Plenty of time for that lesson. Just unfortunate if he has to learn it at all.

The issue is going to be that Jon has no choice but to address the politics of the lower realm in order to help save humanity. By then he will know who he can turn to when he has to make tough decisions. The scene between Val and the fiery Selyse is a prime example of how the author has already been setting this up so that when Act 3 begins in earnest, Jon isn't going to have to waste page space starting all over from scratch. It will come from his experiences in (his) real life and what he learns when he is underwater in his coma dreams with Bran/weirwood/Ghost connections.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I beg to differ. The tom boy vs. girly girl isn't great literature. It's dated gender politics from the 90s.

Never ever did I say anything about "tom boy".

I recommend reading Fevre Dream, Armageddon Rag, Nightflyers, Weekend in a Warzone, The Skin Trade to start with to see how GRRM has developed his own thematic structures and archetypes.

GRRM has been writing and twisting common ideas since the 60's. None of these are new ideas, nor are they born from 2000's current politics and social changes.

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

With Val, the tom boy is now just an attractive woman. Honestly you could replace her with a Sand Snake and there would be no difference. 

So, is she an attractive woman that also happens to be a weirwood symbol, inherits queenly clothing, and good at not letting people walk all over her and her people (Selyse and Mel for two), or is Val just a tom boy? She knows history and has experience with issues that southron people think are children's stories. Martin has been working for a few books now to set them up, as I asked about , and he does not seem in any haste to throw it all away in the final act. Will it be a fairy tale? Who knows but GRRM, and I doubt it because GRRM has spoken about relationships and how up and down they are in reality. Will it be thrown out in favor of some incest-blood betrayal-whateves relation? No.

And Ghost likes her naturally... always trust your dog

Since when can't tom boys also be 'attractive' while doing 'boy' things?

8 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I assume the author is aware that Jon is wrong in his thinking here, but maybe not. 

 

I don't think the author is wrong about his own character.

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 Jon is about the only one, and one in a power position, that actually understands the threat of the Others. No, he does not at this moment in time need someone who plays the part of a southron politic person- whether a blushing maid or a traitorous Janos Slynt; people distracting from the true purpose of the NW. Instead Jon admits all sorts to the watch to work together to save humanity (mist likely how it was the first time around, NOT as how the NW de-volved into). History is in a little bit of a repeat here with the bits and pieces of the past we get are telling the current/near future of the story.

I get the utility of his arguments but he's falling into the stereotype TWICE - once with the blushing maid comment and again with the willowy creature in a tower comment. The stereotype he's using is Not Like Other Girls (TV tropes). Jon can have a type of course, it's just that every time he tends to be attracted to someone, he has to put other women down. It seems to be a pattern for him and I hope that the author is writing this as a character flaw. It's a sexist attitude. 

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The issue is going to be that Jon has no choice but to address the politics of the lower realm in order to help save humanity. By then he will know who he can turn to when he has to make tough decisions. The scene between Val and the fiery Selyse is a prime example of how the author has already been setting this up so that when Act 3 begins in earnest, Jon isn't going to have to waste page space starting all over from scratch. It will come from his experiences in (his) real life and what he learns when he is underwater in his coma dreams with Bran/weirwood/Ghost connections.

I dont know what you mean by Val and Selyse. From Val's reaction to Shireen, she'd cheer Mel on in burning a child. So Jon should be horrified by the whole thing.

I dont think Val is his forever match. Jon says he's not a wildling. I take that to mean - he's not one of them and won't be one of them. 

I think Val is there to get Jon closer to understanding Sansa's position in terms of the horror she went through being on the marriage market. Val goes through similar things but can defend herself (clearly). Sansa cannot. The author is playing around with princesses in tower trope with Sansa and Val. At least he would be smart to play with that instead of separating women into two types. Dumb. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

19 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't think the author is wrong about his own character.

We're not sure his intent behind Jon but it is a sexist trope and I'd rather have it nowhere near the story. 

Unfortunately, D&D even used this in the show:

Jon to Ygritte: You're not like other girls

Jon to Dany: You're not like other girls

I guess...Jon to Val: You're not like other girls.

Ugh.

[The Fattest Leech]

31 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I get the utility of his arguments but he's falling into the stereotype TWICE - once with the blushing maid comment and again with the willowy creature in a tower comment. The stereotype he's using is Not Like Other Girls (TV tropes). Jon can have a type of course, it's just that every time he tends to be attracted to someone, he has to put other women down. It seems to be a pattern for him and I hope that the author is writing this as a character flaw. It's a sexist attitude. 

Here is the book quote because it may help to see it as a refresher in full context:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"I can do more."

Why not? thought Jon. They are all convinced she is a princess. Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her. "I must inform the queen of this agreement," he said. "You are welcome to come meet her, if you can find it in yourself to bend a knee." It would never do to offend Her Grace before he even opened his mouth.

[Val] "May I laugh when I kneel?"

Jon and Val are about to go in to "battle" with a fiery southron queen. Why is bending the knee to fiery queen so important to save anyone? It isn't and Jon is struggling with trying to please too many kings and queens at that moment. Val is resisting this political intrision, as she should and we readers/viewers know why.

Additionally, this is history repeating of Nymeria and the Rhoynar fleeing the dragons all over again. In a nutshell, Jon and Val together are the new Nymeria from history.

Jon was born in Dorne, but...

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"Lord Eddard Stark is my father," Jon admitted stiffly.

Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

"Half brothers," Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show.

And this is put to readers a few times in the story...

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne

There are no cities in Dorne, though the socalled shadow city that clings to the walls of Sunspear is large enough to be counted as a town (a town built of mud and straw, it must be admitted). Larger and more populous, the Planky Town at the mouth of the river Greenblood is mayhaps the nearest thing the Dornish have to a true city, though a city with planks instead of streets, where the houses and halls and shops are made from poleboats, barges, and merchant ships, lashed together with hempen rope and floating on the tide.

Archmaester Brude, who was born and raised in the shadow city that huddles beneath the crumbling walls of Sunspear, once famously observed that Dorne has more in common with the distant North than either does with the realms that lie between them. "One is hot and one is cold, yet these ancient kingdoms of sand and snow are set apart from the rest of Westeros by history, culture, and tradition. Both are thinly peopled, compared to the lands betwixt. Both cling stubbornly to their own laws and their own traditions. Neither was ever truly conquered by the dragons. The King in the North accepted Aegon Targaryen as his overlord peaceably, whilst Dorne resisted the might of the Targaryens valiantly for almost two hundred years, before finally submitting to the Iron Throne through marriage. Dornishmen and Northmen alike are derided as savages by the ignorant of the five 'civilized' kingdoms, and celebrated for their valor by those who have crossed swords with them."

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I dont know what you mean by Val and Selyse.

 

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From Val's reaction to Shireen, she'd cheer Mel on in burning a child. So Jon should be horrified by the whole thing.

Not at all and it seems kinda weird to claim this, afterall, the free folk are not in to incest but Val still manages to like and sing to Monster. It is a case of learning through experience rather than rumors. Even still, there is a difference between not blaming the child (Monster) for what the father did (Craster), and not wanting a deadly disease to spread. Remember what Tyrions learns about this disease while he is on the Rhoyne. Val's idea is not unusual and seems to be pretty typical.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

"Craster's son?" Val shrugged. "He is no kin to me."

"I have heard you singing to him."

"I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?" A faint smile brushed her lips. "It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster."

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I dont think Val is his forever match. Jon says he's not a wildling. I take that to mean - he's not one of them and won't be one of them. 

No, Jon says he is half a wilding (and half a warg) as he is slowly coming to realize in ADWD. Again, this is just a small bit of that scene, but it shows Jon is sloooowly learning and he just needs to reach the next phase of acceptance (which he will). The thing is, calling these people "wildings" is shown to be a derogatory term, akin to the many awful words people use in real life. They are free folk, something Jon also learns about from experience rather than rumor.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—"

"—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. "Words are wind, and the wind is always blowing at the Wall. Come."

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A vast blue-white wall plugged one end of the vale, squeezing between the mountains as if it had shouldered them aside, and for a moment he thought he had dreamed himself back to Castle Black. Then he realized he was looking at a river of ice several thousand feet high. Under that glittering cold cliff was a great lake, its deep cobalt waters reflecting the snowcapped peaks that ringed it. There were men down in the valley, he saw now; many men, thousands, a huge host. Some were tearing great holes in the half-frozen ground, while others trained for war. He watched as a swarming mass of riders charged a shield wall, astride horses no larger than ants. The sound of their mock battle was a rustling of steel leaves, drifting faintly on the wind. Their encampment had no plan to it; he saw no ditches, no sharpened stakes, no neat rows of horse lines. Everywhere crude earthen shelters and hide tents sprouted haphazardly, like a pox on the face of the earth. He spied untidy mounds of hay, smelled goats and sheep, horses and pigs, dogs in great profusion. Tendrils of dark smoke rose from a thousand cookfires.

This is no army, no more than it is a town. This is a whole people come together.

Across the long lake, one of the mounds moved. He watched it more closely and saw that it was not dirt at all, but alive, a shaggy lumbering beast with a snake for a nose and tusks larger than those of the greatest boar that had ever lived. And the thing riding it was huge as well, and his shape was wrong, too thick in the leg and hips to be a man.

 

And as much as I loathe, loathe, loathe the lack of context and playing Plotzee! the show just gave us for the final two seasons, I was not surprised at all that Jon went with the free folk. I just DO NOT think it will happen that way in any near shape as the show gave us.

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I think Val is there to get Jon closer to understanding Sansa's position in terms of the horror she went through being on the marriage market.

Well, since we are already book-heavy at this point, the show did not show this at all- the connection of Jon and Sansa because of marriage markets. That just wasn't there on the show, as we saw, or did not see... however it goes.

As far as the books, Sansa is not about to have the same story that the show gave us. Sansa is actually coming in to her own set of skills as of the TWOW Alayne chapter. I don't see that comparison here.

Either way, I love Sansa and would hate to see her being used as any political marriage meat to anyone again. She should not be married off for any type of 'legitimacy' or title validation.

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Val goes through similar things but can defend herself (clearly). Sansa cannot.

Eeuhhm, I'm not so convinced that Sansa won't know how to protect herself. Her armour is courtesy and it is being spit shined as we type. She doesn't need a sword to poke anyone with a pointy end.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

"Is that what 'they' say, Your Grace?"

Joffrey frowned. Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady's armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, "I'm sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord."

"A great many people are sorry for that," Tyrion replied, "and before I am done, some may be a deal sorrier . . . yet I thank you for the sentiment. Joffrey, where might I find your mother?"

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"Gentle, pious, good-hearted Willas Tyrell. Be grateful you were spared, he would have bored you spitless. The old woman is not boring, though, I'll grant her that. A fearsome old harridan, and not near as frail as she pretends. When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp [songs] can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

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The author is playing around with princesses in tower trope with Sansa and Val. At least he would be smart to play with that instead of separating women into two types. Dumb. 

 

Yup. And Hardin's tower is described as literally about to fall over- trope averted! Yayay Val and the other women are going to escape that terrible pit.

[The Fattest Leech]

29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

We're not sure his intent behind Jon but it is a sexist trope and I'd rather have it nowhere near the story. 

Same, but I also don't see that as any final landing either. In all actuality, Jon was rather inexperienced with any females outside of Winterfell, sooo I think this is a case of learning through experience.

Anyway, I think GRRM also learns along the way...

Q:...Fierce warrior women would not take birth lying down! They would be active, strong, and show how powerful they are while bringing forth new life.

GRRM: Well, point taken. I'll take a look at that book if it turns out that I need to describe another birth... especially if it's from the viewpoint of one of POV characters.

However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a "warrior woman" per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not.

Also, though I don't go into details, something was obviously amiss during Dalla's labor, since it killed her. Childbirth isn't quite the killer in Westeros that it was in medieval Europe in the real world, since Westeros has the maesters, who are a considerable improvement over medieval barber/surgeons... but the levels of mortality for both infant and mother would still be frighteningly high by modern standards. And the wildlings don't have maesters. Nor do they have any handy healing magics, such as we see in many other fantasy epics. Dalla did not even have a midwife at the crucial moment. Presumably the midwife was scared off by the big battle going on all around them as the birth was happening. Dalla had only her sister Val. All that being said, if I do depict another birth, I promise to consider all of this more thoroughly beforehand.

Hmmm, what could be amiss at that moment in time?

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Unfortunately, D&D even used this in the show:

That's all you have to say

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Jon to Ygritte: You're not like other girls

Jon to Dany: You're not like other girls

I cringed so hard when I heard Val being Plotzeed! around in to other arcs as well.

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I guess...Jon to Val: You're not like other girls.

Ugh.

When Jon says this in the books, he is actually pleasantly relieved that Val is not a trope archetype female.

[SeanF]

While I'm sure Val can defend herself, I see her more as a volva, than a warrior woman.  Her great skill is negotiation. She seems able to travel safely through dangerous places, perhaps suggesting that both wildlings and Others see her person as sacrosanct.

[teej6]

Are posters still making the Jon/Sansa pairing?  Looks like this nonsensical fanfic ship will never end.