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So what was the third "oh shit" moment?


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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Never ever did I say anything about "tom boy".

I recommend reading Fevre Dream, Armageddon Rag, Nightflyers, Weekend in a Warzone, The Skin Trade to start with to see how GRRM has developed his own thematic structures and archetypes.

 GRRM has been writing and twisting common ideas since the 60's. None of these are new ideas, nor are they born from 2000's current politics and social changes.

I've read Fevre Dream, AR, and his short stories from early in his career. For all his strengths writing women, I dont think its that amazing or anything. He still relies on feminine vs. masculine typing for women, which is problematic. He spends more detail describing women's physical traits than he does men's. Female friendships are an afterthought while men have a lot. These aren't fatal flaws but they should be noted. I think sometimes people are easily impressed because he's a man. He's a man who can convincingly write women without making them accessories to men. Wow, the bar is low. 

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 Additionally, this is history repeating of Nymeria and the Rhoynar fleeing the dragons all over again. In a nutshell, Jon and Val together are the new Nymeria from history.

You lost me here. Arya and Sansa also won't be kneelers. Lots of people could be the "new Nymeria" (whatever that means). They just have to resist Targaryens. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people will do that in the next 2 books. 

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Not at all and it seems kinda weird to claim this, afterall, the free folk are not in to incest but Val still manages to like and sing to Monster. It is a case of learning through experience rather than rumors. Even still, there is a difference between not blaming the child (Monster) for what the father did (Craster), and not wanting a deadly disease to spread. Remember what Tyrions learns about this disease while he is on the Rhoyne. Val's idea is not unusual and seems to be pretty typical.

I dont think Monster has anything to do with it. The quote where he's shocked by Val's reaction was telling. It was yet another example of Jon thinking he's getting along with the wildlings one moment and then BAM the cultural differences hit him over the head. He tends to forget how violent they are. Val's reaction is not normal by Westerosi standards. I still think Val would push Shireen into the flames because she had that crazy of a reaction.

Maybe, lets not just kill her, let's try to cure her or at least quarantine? I think GRRM would take the scientific perspective over the most barbaric, superstitious one, at least when it comes to human disease. 

 

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, Jon says he is half a wilding (and half a warg) as he is slowly coming to realize in ADWD. Again, this is just a small bit of that scene, but it shows Jon is sloooowly learning and he just needs to reach the next phase of acceptance (which he will).

Yeah but he's realizing how many halves he has. He's not simply 50% wildling, he'll end up with many different identities. I doubt it's just a story of Jon slowly becoming Mr. Free Folk. 

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

As far as the books, Sansa is not about to have the same story that the show gave us. Sansa is actually coming in to her own set of skills as of the TWOW Alayne chapter. I don't see that comparison here.

If Feast/Dance hadn't split, we'd have three women in tower situations simultaneously, Arianne, Val, and Sansa. Something is going on with that, at least in trope terms. 

And anything that happens to Sansa is just a theory at this point. She has the most up-in-the-air possibilities. We all have our own guesses. I still think she'll go North in Winds because ...that's Littlefinger's plan. It just doubt it happens the way he wants. 

 

41 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Eeuhhm, I'm not so convinced that Sansa won't know how to protect herself. Her armour is courtesy and it is being spit shined as we type. She doesn't need a sword to poke anyone with a pointy end.

I should have said, that she can't physically defend herself but she'll make it out with her wits, obviously.

29 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

When Jon says this in the books, he is actually pleasantly relieved that Val is not a trope archetype female.

So he's thinking "Wow, I'm so glad she isn't like the other archetypal woman written in fantasy novels"? People don't usually think of people around them as archetypes. They're just...people. 

Anytime a man puts women into boxes I cringe. There is no need to compare women like that. 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon should be challenged on his attitude toward women, not confirmed. [...] Maybe Jon should look for another type.

WTF? The number of men who told me, a woman, what type of men I had to fall for (usually more their own) and in the same breadth also told me what to alter to my own appearance, way of talking and walking and interests so I could be more their type was astounding, and a guy saying what you say Jon should do, was the quickest and surest way for me to turn my back from a guy. 

Oh, and I am tomboy. And some men do like that. And thank god they do! 

Jon has the hots for Val and she has the hots for him. Do they have a difference in opinion on Shyreen, yes. Does it shock Jon? Yes. Is Val annoyed that Jon doesn't automatically agree with her? Yes. This is not atypical for people who start to fall in love with each other. They assume the other will think like them, and they won't. And it's always a shocker when they don't. It's like a democrat voter finding out the SO votes republican, or someone who is anti-death penalty disovers the other is pro-death pentaly. Val has to learn something from Jon, but perhaps she's not entirely wrong about Greyscale either. 

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

WTF? The number of men who told me, a woman, what type of men I had to fall for (usually more their own) and in the same breadth also told me what to alter to my own appearance, way of talking and walking and interests so I could be more their type was astounding, and a guy saying what you say Jon should do, was the quickest and surest way for me to turn my back from a guy. 

Oh, and I am tomboy. And some men do like that. And thank god they do! 

Okay first of all, Jon isn't a real person so we can say whatever the hell we want about his choices in women (which I think are terrible). So I wasn't talking about you, specifically. 

Secondly, I'm talking about violence as a character trait, not altering women's appearances.

Jon-->attracted to women who have violent tendencies.

Jon later-->upset when he finds out they have violent tendencies.

*insert Phoebe this is brand new information gif*

I'm suggesting that in this case, women who don't threaten to cut men's balls off or roast people alive might be a nice change for him. 

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I've read Fevre Dream, AR, and his short stories from early in his career. For all his strengths writing women, I dont think its that amazing or anything. He still relies on feminine vs. masculine typing for women, which is problematic. He spends more detail describing women's physical traits than he does men's. Female friendships are an afterthought while men have a lot. These aren't fatal flaws but they should be noted. I think sometimes people are easily impressed because he's a man. He's a man who can convincingly write women without making them accessories to men. Wow, the bar is low. 

Well, that is your take. I guess it was disappointing for you to come away with that impression, but I did not. However, did you see the archetypal buildup in each story that was re-purposed for ASOIAF? And before anyone naysays this idea, Martin himself has stated he has reused characters and themes from his past in to ASOIAF.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

You lost me here. Arya and Sansa also won't be kneelers. Lots of people could be the "new Nymeria" (whatever that means). They just have to resist Targaryens. I'm sure there will be a bunch of people will do that in the next 2 books. 

Oh no, it takes way more than just resisting Targaryens to be a new Nymeria. That was not the whole of Nymeria's story by any means. I have already given you a few quotes to start, but please do read more, especially between Rhaenys and Meria Martell then compare to Val and Selyse, and then compare the integration of different peoples, and the bigotry, and OH SO MUCH MORE. I mean, practically word for word and scene for scene between the two examples.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

I dont think Monster has anything to do with it. The quote where he's shocked by Val's reaction was telling. It was yet another example of Jon thinking he's getting along with the wildlings one moment and then BAM the cultural differences hit him over the head. 

Tell me what experience Jon has with greyscale and then tell me how the rest of the world deals with it.

Jon is learning, and we all know the stupid meme joke that I won't repeat here.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He tends to forget how violent they are.

Exaggerated rumors as Jon shows and GRRM says. A reader should not fall for this segregationist crap. This is GRRM literally using the trials of oppressed people in the real world as an example in his own story. If you read these other Martin books are you said, you should have picked up on that right away because he uses this same "otherized" human idea in those same stories as well.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Val's reaction is not normal by Westerosi standards. 

Westerosi standards are rubbish crap that do nothing but oppress in the current style and standard. The iron throne is a symbol of conquest and submission, not something to look up to (again, per GRRM).

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I still think Val would push Shireen into the flames because she had that crazy of a reaction.

Ok, you keep saying that but there is nothing to back this up. So far the only weildling of weapons or death Val has done was to literally protect herself from a southron guard.

See the irony about who the real violent beings are?

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

Maybe, lets not just kill her, let's try to cure her or at least quarantine? I think GRRM would take the scientific perspective over the most barbaric, superstitious one, at least when it comes to human disease. 

Val does ask for a type of quarantine for Monster when she tells Jon to move monster away from Shireen and into Hardin's tower. Still, that isn't going to stop an epidemic should one break out in that environment. By the end of that interaction, Jon himself starts to question his own knowledge as we read in his internal (italic) thoughts.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Jon shook her hand away. "She is not dead."

"She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster."

"If I can, I will."

"Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow."

Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

Yeah but he's realizing how many halves he has. He's not simply 50% wildling, he'll end up with many different identities. I doubt it's just a story of Jon slowly becoming Mr. Free Folk. 

As I mentioned, that was just a small bit. This realization happens a few times in the story, also when Jon realizes that he and Ghost are one. These realizations should not be overlooked.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Half a mile from the grove, long red shafts of autumn sunlight were slanting down between the branches of the leafless trees, staining the snowdrifts pink. The riders crossed a frozen stream, between two jagged rocks armored in ice, then followed a twisting game trail to the northeast. Whenever the wind kicked up, sprays of loose snow filled the air and stung their eyes. Jon pulled his scarf up over his mouth and nose and raised the hood on his cloak. "Not far now," he told the men. No one replied.

Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake. The great white wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow. A few moments later Tom was there. "Wildlings," he told Jon, softly. "In the grove."

Gilly and other FF are also starting to treat Jon like a new king, as are Liddle, Flint when they question Jon atop the wall how he would handle issues in the north, like a Stark son of Eddard. They respect Jon for his answers. And Alys makes comments to Jon during her match with Sigorn that Jon is acting as a father/king. As GRRM said, kings/rulers/everyone are not just born that way, they are created, and we are witnessing the creation of Jon Snow, King of Winter.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

"He'll be down with the books. My old septon used to say that books are dead men talking. Dead men should keep quiet, is what I say. No one wants to hear a dead man's yabber." Dolorous Edd went off muttering of worms and spiders.

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings." Though a wife and mother, Gilly still seemed half a child to him, a slender little thing wrapped up in one of Sam's old cloaks. The cloak was so big on her that she could have hidden several other girls beneath its folds. "The babes are well?" he asked her.

The wildling girl smiled timidly from under her cowl. "Yes, m'lord. I was scared I wouldn't have milk enough for both, but the more they suck, the more I have. They're strong."

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If Feast/Dance hadn't split, we'd have three women in tower situations simultaneously, Arianne, Val, and Sansa. Something is going on with that, at least in trope terms. 

Undoing the trope. Hardin's tower is about to fall. The Vale is about to be squashed by a blizzard and the Lance will probably come down. This all happens as these women avoid the princess in the tower trope and start making their own choices (for good or for bad).

And as to Arianne, she is the Nymeria antithesis because she wants to take something by her "rights". No bueno when someone in this story makes that claim.

A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

"More like several hundred, ser," said Garin.

Arianne left them to their banter. Drey and Spotted Sylva were her dearest friends, aside from her cousin Tyene, and Garin had been teasing her since both of them were drinking from his mother's teats, but just now she was in no mood for japery. The sun was gone, and the sky was full of stars. So many. She leaned her back against a fluted pillar and wondered if her brother was looking at the same stars tonight, wherever he might be. Do you see the white one, Quentyn? That is Nymeria's star, burning bright, and that milky band behind her, those are ten thousand ships. She burned as bright as any man, and so shall I. You will not rob me of my birthright!

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And anything that happens to Sansa is just a theory at this point. She has the most up-in-the-air possibilities. We all have our own guesses. I still think she'll go North in Winds because ...that's Littlefinger's plan. It just doubt it happens the way he wants. 

Oh yes, she will eventually go north, as will all of the Stark children at some point. I think it is Eddard that tells one of his children that "all roads lead to home/Winterfell." And I fully expect Sansa to be turning the tables on Littlefinger by then, if not before.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

I should have said, that she can't physically defend herself but she'll make it out with her wits, obviously.

Gotcha.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

So he's thinking "Wow, I'm so glad she isn't like the other archetypal woman written in fantasy novels"? People don't usually think of people around them as archetypes. They're just...people. 

Ya need to remember that the written word has a job to do, and sometimes a small forcing of words (exposition) is necessary. This is the job of the author to make it happen. Jon doesn't exist, so the thoughts he has are what the author wants the reader to know through showing us. Jon the character won't say "you're my archetype", but the reader should see this playing out on page my small bits of info and actions. Whether the reader agrees with the way the author handles it, well that is another thread.

Nope. Again, Jon doesn't actually have any real experience with females outside of his own clan kin and others at Winterfell. All he knows, for the bulk of this learning, come from Catelyn and Old Nan's tales, and even Sansa...

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Gilly, he called me. For the gillyflower."

"That's pretty." He remembered Sansa telling him once that he should say that whenever a lady told him her name. He could not help the girl, but perhaps the courtesy would please her. "Is it Craster who frightens you, Gilly?"

Which kinda funny that Dunk also has to be taught what to say to girls by Egg when Dunk goes to meet Rohanne Webber. A bit of a fun parallel.

5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Anytime a man puts women into boxes I cringe. There is no need to compare women like that. 

Agreed. This also applies when people claim Val (and her archetype) are just good-looking tom boys.

 

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Okay first of all, Jon isn't a real person so we can say whatever the hell we want about his choices in women (which I think are terrible). So I wasn't talking about you, specifically. 

Secondly, I'm talking about violence as a character trait, not altering women's appearances.

Jon-->attracted to women who have violent tendencies.

Jon later-->upset when he finds out they have violent tendencies.

Jon may be struggling with different personalities that are new to him, but that doesn't mean he dislikes Val. Quite the opposite. When the chaos at Hardin's tower happens, the safety of Val is still Jon's first thought.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me. Then he heard the shouting … and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off.

Val, was Jon's first thought. But that was no woman's scream. That is a man in mortal agony. He broke into a run. Horse and Rory raced after him. "Is it wights?" asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains?

The screaming had stopped by the time they came to Hardin's Tower, but Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun was still roaring. The giant was dangling a bloody corpse by one leg, the same way Arya used to dangle her doll when she was small, swinging it like a morningstar when menaced by vegetables. Arya never tore her dolls to pieces, though. The dead man's sword arm was yards away, the snow beneath it turning red.

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

*insert Phoebe this is brand new information gif*

I'm suggesting that in this case, women who don't threaten to cut men's balls off or roast people alive might be a nice change for him. 

Whooooaaaah, Nelly! Do you know what that line means? It isn't about voilence. Is that what you think? Please clarify.

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16 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Okay first of all, Jon isn't a real person so we can say whatever the hell we want about his choices in women (which I think are terrible). So I wasn't talking about you, specifically. 

Secondly, I'm talking about violence as a character trait, not altering women's appearances.

Jon-->attracted to women who have violent tendencies.

Jon later-->upset when he finds out they have violent tendencies.

*insert Phoebe this is brand new information gif*

I'm suggesting that in this case, women who don't threaten to cut men's balls off or roast people alive might be a nice change for him. 

Oh, I know you were not talking about me... I was using my own experience to highlight that "people who think someone should fall for another type of person that is more in line with their own taste and wants and desires" is a total rubbish attitude, whether they be male or female. You've given a fine example of that deplorable attitude on your own. 

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7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He keeps trashing women who sit in towers and blushing maids.

Really? Has he met enough women to really judge him? Where not Lady Catelyn and WF Sansa good cause for him to blame such women?

BTW, I feel Val is more Sansa (after Cersei) than the warriors like Arya and Ygritte. A wildling. But much like a lady.

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Jon is following the Free Folk ways :leer:

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

"Yes, but . . . Tormund, I swear, I've never touched her."

"Are you certain they never cut your member off?" Tormund gave a shrug, as if to say he would never understand such madness. "Well, you are a free man now, but if you will not have the girl, best find yourself a she-bear. If a man does not use his member it grows smaller and smaller, until one day he wants to piss and cannot find it."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Val waited by the gate in the predawn cold, wrapped up in a bearskin cloak so large it might well have fit Sam. Beside her was a garron, saddled and bridled, a shaggy grey with one white eye. Mully and Dolorous Edd stood with her, a pair of unlikely guards. Their breath frosted in the cold black air.

"You gave her a blind horse?" Jon said, incredulous.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"

"—Tormund Giantsbane. Aye." Val pulled up the hood of her bearskin. The brown pelt was well salted with grey. "Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?"

"The Wall killed Jarl."

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him.

They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

"Have you been trying to steal my wolf?" he asked her.

Sorry, couldn't resist adding these quotes.

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11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Well, that is your take. I guess it was disappointing for you to come away with that impression, but I did not. However, did you see the archetypal buildup in each story that was re-purposed for ASOIAF? And before anyone naysays this idea, Martin himself has stated he has reused characters and themes from his past in to ASOIAF.

What do the archetypes of former stories have to do with the way he writes and describes women? Basically, I'm saying that I can tell that what I'm reading is written by a man, and that's unfortunate, but not enough to completely write him off either. It just is what is is, and every author has their blind spots. I'm not going to heap loads of praise in places where I dont think it belongs. 

15 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh no, it takes way more than just resisting Targaryens to be a new Nymeria. That was not the whole of Nymeria's story by any means. I have already given you a few quotes to start, but please do read more, especially between Rhaenys and Meria Martell then compare to Val and Selyse, and then compare the integration of different peoples, and the bigotry, and OH SO MUCH MORE. I mean, practically word for word and scene for scene between the two examples.

Yeah, I know Dornish history and Nymeria (can you please not talk to me like I'm a fan who just signed up?)

So you think the show is giving Val's storyline to Sansa? Sansa took on the Meria Martell role in the show. Arya took on the helping refugee role in S8. I don't know why you're so fixated on Val when the Stark girls are POV characters who will also have parallels to Dornish history. They represent the North just as much as Val, secondary character, who again suffers from bland Sand Snake characterization IMO. 

18 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val does ask for a type of quarantine for Monster when she tells Jon to move monster away from Shireen and into Hardin's tower. Still, that isn't going to stop an epidemic should one break out in that environment. By the end of that interaction, Jon himself starts to question his own knowledge as we read in his internal (italic) thoughts.

My point is, Val wouldn't shed much of a tear for Stannis/Selyse/Mel burning Shireen and this would shock Jon, regardless of whether grey scale is a threat. While Jon might be horrified, she'd probably say "good riddance." 

20 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Agreed. This also applies when people claim Val (and her archetype) are just good-looking tom boys.

There is difference between critique of an author's writing, and a critique of the character's thoughts. There is doylist and watsonian layers of analyzing a story...maybe I'm being confusing by switching back and forth but really...people should be able to distinguish between the two. 

17 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Whooooaaaah, Nelly! Do you know what that line means? It isn't about voilence. Is that what you think? Please clarify.

I was thinking of show Ygritte threatening to cut off Jon's balls and wear them around her neck. She was like this in the books (ugh the eunuch jokes...) I just find that kind of banter tiresome and then Val continued the jabs. And sorry if talking about violent cultures gets you upset but...I guess we can't talk in generalist culture terms when its appropriate (like Jon's differences to the wildlings)? No generalizing the Dothraki to violent warlords? I still think Jon would be better suited to someone who can  curb his own impetuousness, which the wildlings only encourage (*Ramsay's raid* *cough*). I wanted him to be a smart game player who has to learn how to tell white lies and use courtesies to gain alliances. Val would suck at that. 

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29 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Really? Has he met enough women to really judge him? Where not Lady Catelyn and WF Sansa good cause for him to blame such women?

BTW, I feel Val is more Sansa (after Cersei) than the warriors like Arya and Ygritte. A wildling. But much like a lady.

I feel she's a mixture: a tomboy grown up who's comfortable with her femininity. The loveliest sight for Jon is when she appears in that white attire, but they're pants. And Jon's thoughts sound like what I've heard men say afterwards when they saw their bride at the other side of the isle. Except this one wears pants. But he cringes at the thought of Selyse or any of her men telling Val needs to learn to be put into southrun dresses. 

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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Really? Has he met enough women to really judge him? Where not Lady Catelyn and WF Sansa good cause for him to blame such women?

It's a realistic reason, considering characterization, but not a rational one. Jon is just a whiny emo bitch sometimes.

At least we agree he has a bias toward femininity, which is what my original post was about.

1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

BTW, I feel Val is more Sansa (after Cersei) than the warriors like Arya and Ygritte. A wildling. But much like a lady.

I think Dalla is more like Sansa, as is Alys. Val attacked an armed man with his own knife and makes point-blank, direct, mocking comments to people. It's not really on the "lady" side of the spectrum.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What do the archetypes of former stories have to do with the way he writes and describes women? Basically, I'm saying that I can tell that what I'm reading is written by a man, and that's unfortunate, but not enough to completely write him off either. It just is what is is, and every author has their blind spots. I'm not going to heap loads of praise in places where I dont think it belongs. 

The writing may or may not be exciting or worthy of praise to some, and that is ok because what I am talking about here is how Martin, in his own Martinworld universe, has created his own archetypes and according to his own word, has reused them. Val and Jon, and Val and Jon together, are one of those thematic types he pairs together for however that story works.

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Yeah, I know Dornish history and Nymeria (can you please not talk to me like I'm a fan who just signed up?)

This is an interesting topic for me. I do not know you personally or even much in the fandom to know what you have or have not read (as I mentioned above). There are many in the fandom that will not or have not read any ancillary stories such as the World book nor even Dunk & Egg. Crazy, right?!?! I agree.

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So you think the show is giving Val's storyline to Sansa?

No, the show chopped up Val (and LSH, and Jon Con, and Arianne, and Aegon 6, etc, etc) and gave them to other show characters that basically also morphed into something that is show only. There are many, many examples of this remixing. Show!Jon Stoneheart is another one.

Daenerys in the books is not going to have a special shoulder braid and white coat the way they showed it in S7. Jon and Dany aren't going to have boatsex. That is all a Val plotzee mix-in. Just as the show mixed in Aegon 6 with Dany when needed, and mixed in Arianne with Jon when needed. It was all forced in the show for ratings and shock and awe.

The only Val in showSansa is this past season in the scene when Sansa and Dany have that heated discussion in the library (? need to find the scene). That is a straight from the books Val against Selyse scene. Plotzee!

Sansa realizes she will not bow or kneel to Danaerys here, just as Val tells fire queen Selyse that she won't kneel to her (as Val should resist this particular fire queen).

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Sansa took on the Meria Martell role in the show.

A little, for one scene, as I mentioned above. But in the canon reality, it is Val, and way more extremely word for word and action for action.

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Arya took on the helping refugee role in S8. I don't know why you're so fixated on Val when the Stark girls are POV characters who will also have parallels to Dornish history.

Yes, and Arya names her wolf Nymeria. But who is actually doing all of the frontline plot actions in this history repeat? There are always subplots that mirror the major and this isn't the only case.

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They represent the North just as much as Val, secondary character, who again suffers from bland Sand Snake characterization IMO. 

GRRM has said that not all secondary character stay minor. This is an archetype, like Bloodraven, he has been crafting since the 70's, and the time in the story had to be right when introducing them. Jon didn't need Val in A Game of Thrones, and she was almost introduced in book 2 at the end before GRRM switched the chapters around last minute.

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My point is, Val wouldn't shed much of a tear for Stannis/Selyse/Mel burning Shireen and this would shock Jon, regardless of whether grey scale is a threat. While Jon might be horrified, she'd probably say "good riddance." 

And so may Jon after an explosion of the disease. After all, we see Jon questioning his own knowledge (quote above) and if something bad happens because he failed to act in time, he would really take that as a major blow to himself and his mission.

 

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I was thinking of show Ygritte threatening to cut off Jon's balls and wear them around her neck.

Yikes, I don't remember show Ygritte saying this to Jon. Wow, that is an absolute corruption of the dialogue and intent which is not the same as the book intent, as we see happens over and over. Again, Plotzee! Someone else in the books wears ears around their neck. Vargo Hoat? Someone else?

However, in the books, Ygritte is a 'fire' sided person, and the theme of fire always burning/consuming trees is beyond prevalent in this series (and other GRRM stories). Jon is a tree person, knowing this it is easy to see that Jon and Ygritte was never endgame.

ADDING: Found this clip with Ygritte. Wow, yeah, the D's with their myopic vision of what strong women and 'women on top' actually means... brutality :rolleyes:

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She was like this in the books (ugh the eunuch jokes...) I just find that kind of banter tiresome and then Val continued the jabs.

Again, entirely different context and the D's completely missed the point by leagues. The D's left all of the magic out of Jon's show arc, which created major voids in his show development. This is just a perfect example of a missing/misused detail that screw up the whole intent.

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And sorry if talking about violent cultures gets you upset but...I guess we can't talk in generalist culture terms when its appropriate (like Jon's differences to the wildlings)?

The violent free folk are the 'wildings' like the Weeper and his ilk. That's it. It is not all free folk as Jon shows readers. Again the show dropped this detail and even made the advanced Thenns nothing more than weirdo potato hating cannibals.

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No generalizing the Dothraki to violent warlords? 

They most certainly are. The Dothraki are so feared that cities pay them to NOT raid and pillage. The Dothraki are slaving monsters.

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I still think Jon would be better suited to someone who can  curb his own impetuousness, which the wildlings only encourage

For the books, in no way is it shown Sansa could do this. They haven't been on page together for how long? Sansa dreams of Sandor, whom calls her his Little Bird. Jon does need someone to help reign in his wolfishness and that will be Val, Morna, Borroq, with Tormund (and maybe Morna) taking that helm in the real world while Bran/Ghost do that in the existential plane.

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(*Ramsay's raid* *cough*).

Ramsay and Jon are a history repeat of the Red King Boltons being a 'bastard' version of the Stark and who are jealous of not inhertiing the skinchange gene. The story The Skin Trade explain this beautifully. This Jon-Ramsay, Snow brother vs Snow brother, has to happen in Martinworld.

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I wanted him to be a smart game player who has to learn how to tell white lies and use courtesies to gain alliances.

Jon has to use smarts, reality, and the knowledge of the weirwoods (history) to help thwart what will happen to humanity if people do not work together and change-> progress. If this doesn't happen, Westeros (Planetos?) will be stuck in the proverbial dark ages forever. You read Fevre Dream? Same exact concept in that story from beginning to end.

ADDING: Meant to say that Jon has to use smarts, not lies, in order to move forward. Lies are what causes the constant problems in this world. They need more truth, and that that truth comes from the trees.

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Val would suck at that. 

Except no, and especially not in Jon's eyes...

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

and I've tasted the Dornishman's wife!

Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt. She will not weep nor look away. Jon wondered what Ygritte would have done in her place. The women are the strong ones. He found himself thinking about Sam and Maester Aemon, about Gilly and the babe. She will curse me with her dying breath, but I saw no other way. Eastwatch reported savage storms upon the narrow sea. I meant to keep them safe. Did I feed them to the crabs instead? Last night he had dreamed of Sam drowning, of Ygritte dying with his arrow in her (it had not been his arrow, but in his dreams it always was), of Gilly weeping tears of blood.

Jon Snow had seen enough. "Now," he said.

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1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The writing may or may not be exciting or worthy of praise to some, and that is ok because what I am talking about here is how Martin, in his own Martinworld universe, has created his own archetypes and according to his own word, has reused them. Val and Jon, and Val and Jon together, are one of those thematic types he pairs together for however that story works.

I dont see them having that much depth of a relationship for a pair at all. Jon thinks of Val as a wish-fulfillment and she's a cypher for his own fantasies which SHE has nothing to do with. His wish is to be a Lord with a Lady wife at Winterfell. He doesn't even care what Val wants in that deal. I see a retread with Dany, Val, and Ygritte - all women who Jon will try to fit into his actual dream (He tries to fit Ygritte in at WF, just like Val. No one fits). 

I think you're trying to twist the ending into Jon x Val as king/queen beyond the Wall, when the producers have not confirmed that either way. They have been ambiguous in interviews about the ending. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, the show chopped up Val (and LSH, and Jon Con, and Arianne, and Aegon 6, etc, etc) and gave them to other show characters that basically also morphed into something that is show only. There are many, many examples of this remixing. Show!Jon Stoneheart is another one.

Daenerys in the books is not going to have a special shoulder braid and white coat the way they showed it in S7. Jon and Dany aren't going to have boatsex. That is all a Val plotzee mix-in. Just as the show mixed in Aegon 6 with Dany when needed, and mixed in Arianne with Jon when needed. It was all forced in the show for ratings and shock and awe.

The only Val in showSansa is this past season in the scene when Sansa and Dany have that heated discussion in the library (? need to find the scene). That is a straight from the books Val against Selyse scene. Plotzee!

Sansa realizes she will not bow or kneel to Danaerys here, just as Val tells fire queen Selyse that she won't kneel to her (as Val should resist this particular fire queen).

You talk about this with certainty like you have an advanced copy. This sounds like a completely different rewrite than what we saw on the show. I believe the show's main points will follow GRRM because he sat them down and told them the plot, in a time period when he thought he could beat them to the ending. If Aegon and Val were that important, he would have told D&D to include them. 

Again I'm not seeing the Val vs. Selyse foreshadowing like you are because that's just what wildlings do...they refuse to kneel. It could have been Ygritte doing the same thing. It's not that remarkable. In fact, I wonder if Val (short for Valyrian) is a warning to Jon not to trust beautiful blondes. Val was suspicious of him, thinking that he killed Jarl. There is also the line that Val thinks the air tastes sweet and Jon only tastes the cold, suggesting a different perspective that won't be resolved. I see more tension and conflict between these two than you do, I think. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

ADDING: Found this clip with Ygritte. Wow, yeah, the D's with their myopic vision of what strong women and 'women on top' actually means... brutality :rolleyes:

Yeah. Its really dumb.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The violent free folk are the 'wildings' like the Weeper and his ilk. That's it. It is not all free folk as Jon shows readers. Again the show dropped this detail and even made the advanced Thenns nothing more than weirdo potato hating cannibals.

Obviously they have differences and not everyone is "the same." But their reputation for raiding (nicer word for raping/stealing) didn't just start with the Weeper. They earned that and there are some truths to stereotypes. I think the free folk are no longer a threat because they're defeated and beaten, not necessarily because they were always a peace-loving people. Jon does have cultural differences from them but there is promise for cultural mixing. That's why the free folk just packing up and leaving kind of ruins all of his work to create a melting pot. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

For the books, in no way is it shown Sansa could do this. They haven't been on page together for how long? Sansa dreams of Sandor, whom calls her his Little Bird. Jon does need someone to help reign in his wolfishness and that will be Val, Morna, Borroq, with Tormund (and maybe Morna) taking that helm in the real world while Bran/Ghost do that in the existential plane.

Ummm...I kind of dont know how to respond to this. Surely you know that GRRM has said in multiple interviews that Sansa and Sandor is not a thing? And again if this was the story D&D would have told it, GRRM would have told them to do it. I think Jon has to have close connections to Sansa if he's going to kill Dany for her. That is such a huge plot point, I dont think it can be messed with.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ramsay and Jon are a history repeat of the Red King Boltons being a 'bastard' version of the Stark and who are jealous of not inhertiing the skinchange gene. The story The Skin Trade explain this beautifully. This Jon-Ramsay, Snow brother vs Snow brother, has to happen in Martinworld.

Yes, werewolves this time, instead of vampires. I don't think this really has anything to do with the observation that Jon needs to listen to cooler heads. Robb should have listened to Cat, and Jon should have listened to Sansa. She was trying to give him everything he ever wanted (ruling at Winterfell, his family) but he was a total idiot about it. Again this ties back into his prejudice against feminine usefulness, which could be laying the groundwork for more mistakes on Jon's part. 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon has to use smarts, reality, and the knowledge of the weirwoods (history) to help thwart what will happen to humanity if people do not work together and change-> progress. If this doesn't happen, Westeros (Planetos?) will be stuck in the proverbial dark ages forever. You read Fevre Dream? Same exact concept in that story from beginning to end.

ADDING: Meant to say that Jon has to use smarts, not lies, in order to move forward. Lies are what causes the constant problems in this world. They need more truth, and that that truth comes from the trees.

Yes I get the history/truth point, but perhaps I should say he should be less naive and trusting of people. He needs to be cunning, that sometimes involves lies. He is already lying to Sam and Stannis for the greater good so I don't really share your observation about lies. They can be done for the greater good (Ned for example?)

Ok I'm stopping for today because this is getting too involved and I need to go run errands. It was nice chatting with you about these nuances in Jon's story. At least someone cares!

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6 hours ago, teej6 said:

Are posters still making the Jon/Sansa pairing? :ack: Looks like this nonsensical fanfic ship will never end. 

Preach. 

I kinda hoped that the stupid show would have annihilated this idea, but I guess I was wrong. And if Jonsa was a book thing, no way David and Dan would have passed on it. As fierce and resilient Jonsa shippers tend to be, I'd say the vast majority of viewers wouldn't have seen it coming, so easy money for them, a big OMFG moment w/o even having to think about it. 

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see them having that much depth of a relationship for a pair at all. Jon thinks of Val as a wish-fulfillment and she's a cypher for his own fantasies which SHE has nothing to do with. His wish is to be a Lord with a Lady wife at Winterfell. He doesn't even care what Val wants in that deal.

Jon tells people over and over that Val is not a princess. Jon knows what she is. When he has his waking slaver dream about taking Winterfell, that is when Ghost shows up to remind him who he is. This is also a scene where Jon is (semi?) warging Ghost without realizing it. Jon and Ghost are one, Ghost and Val look like they belong together.

(looking for the quote...)

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 I see a retread with Dany, Val, and Ygritte - all women who Jon will try to fit into his actual dream

Dany and Jon have not met and don't even know about each other yet. Chances are they won't meet until the end of TWOW or even the start of ADOS since GRRM said Dany (and Tyrion) are in Essos for most of TWOW.

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(He tries to fit Ygritte in at WF, just like Val. No one fits). 

That is part of the point. No one fits because Jon is not going to fit either. He won't be Lord of Winterfell, but rather Jon Snow, King of Winter, the ancient (first men) title being brought back to use.

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I think you're trying to twist the ending into Jon x Val as king/queen beyond the Wall, when the producers have not confirmed that either way. They have been ambiguous in interviews about the ending. 

Nope. I have not in the least tried to assume this. I have said before in this very thread that Jon will be King of Winter, and ancient title linked to Starks and first men, of which the free folk are. The wall probably won't be standing much longer, the land is one, so there won't be a 'king beyond the wall' anymore.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

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You talk about this with certainty like you have an advanced copy.

Well, if truth be told, I do. But please don't tell anyone because I don't want it to get out because I couldn't handle the sheer volume of fan mail.

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This sounds like a completely different rewrite than what we saw on the show. I believe the show's main points will follow GRRM because he sat them down and told them the plot, in a time period when he thought he could beat them to the ending. If Aegon and Val were that important, he would have told D&D to include them. 

I was expecting this argument to pop up a page or two ago and was happy to see it didn't, but here we are. There are oodles and oodles of examples of things GRRM told the D's to do, but for whatever reasons the D's decided not to use. This argument actually doesn't hold much water. 

As said by others before, if the D's put aliens in to the show, there is nothing George can do about it.

GRRM went on and on about the inportance of Stoneheart, but instead the D's gave us lazy fart "revival" of Jonny Stoneheart  and the Hound with the BWB taking a piss in the river.

George told them a few seasons ago that the direwolves would be very important for the Winterfell battle against Ramsay, and to feature the wolves a lot, but the showrunners went against that.

And if that was the case, and the point is to have another (boring at this point) incest ship between Sansa and her brother-cousin, why didn't GRRM tell the D's to use this? Why did we not get any of that on screen?

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Again I'm not seeing the Val vs. Selyse foreshadowing like you are because that's just what wildlings do...they refuse to kneel. It could have been Ygritte doing the same thing. It's not that remarkable. In fact, I wonder if Val (short for Valyrian) is a warning to Jon not to trust beautiful blondes.

Val is short for Valerian, as in the flower, because free folk women have flower names. Dalla is actually based on a horse, but that is for other similar reasons. Valerian/Valyrian is a play on words for both the fire and ice side of the story.

Why on earth would it be a warning to Jon to not trust blondes???  Sorry, but this is a completely odd line of reasoning here. I have provided much text to back up my words in this thread, please feel free to do the same when making odd comments like this. How has Val done anything against Jon or the NW or the people of Westeros? Val has dark honey blonde hair, and this appeals to Jon and his bear-side in the naturist symbiotic relationship. The bear and the maiden fair.

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Val was suspicious of him, thinking that he killed Jarl. There is also the line that Val thinks the air tastes sweet and Jon only tastes the cold, suggesting a different perspective that won't be resolved. I see more tension and conflict between these two than you do, I think. 

Val is observing and verifying that Jon followed free folk custom of the 'stealing' practice.

Tasting sweet air vs cold air is because Val and the free folk have actual experience with the Others and wights. This is also foreshadowing for Jon's mutiny and what is actually happening when Jon feels "only the cold".

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VIII

When they emerged north of the Wall, through a thick door made of freshly hewn green wood, the wildling princess paused for a moment to gaze out across the snow-covered field where King Stannis had won his battle. Beyond, the haunted forest waited, dark and silent. The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow. She took a deep breath. "The air tastes sweet."

"My tongue is too numb to tell. All I can taste is cold."

"Cold?" Val laughed lightly. "No. When it is cold it will hurt to breathe. When the Others come …"

Val has inherited more than just clothes from her sister Dalla. She has also been given Dalla's place of wisdom.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days."

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly.

ADDING because I forgot to first time around: Dywen, who somehow knows things, also smells the cold when evuul is afoot (or a hand, as in a fiery hand;))

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Thoren Smallwood swore that Craster was a friend to the Watch, despite his unsavory reputation. "The man's half-mad, I won't deny it," he'd told the Old Bear, "but you'd be the same if you'd spent your life in this cursed wood. Even so, he's never turned a ranger away from his fire, nor does he love Mance Rayder. He'll give us good counsel."

So long as he gives us a hot meal and a chance to dry our clothes, I'll be happy. Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

"Ghost," Jon breathed, surprised. "So you came inside after all, eh?" The white wolf often hunted all night; he had not expected to see him again till daybreak. "Was the hunting so bad?" he asked. "Here. To me, Ghost."

The direwolf circled the fire, sniffing Jon, sniffing the wind, never still. It did not seem as if he were after meat right now. When the dead came walking, Ghost knew. He woke me, warned me. Alarmed, he got to his feet. "Is something out there? Ghost, do you have a scent?" Dywen said he smelled cold.

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Yeah. Its really dumb.

Like so many other decisions.

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Obviously they have differences and not everyone is "the same." But their reputation for raiding (nicer word for raping/stealing) didn't just start with the Weeper. They earned that and there are some truths to stereotypes. I think the free folk are no longer a threat because they're defeated and beaten, not necessarily because they were always a peace-loving people. Jon does have cultural differences from them but there is promise for cultural mixing. That's why the free folk just packing up and leaving kind of ruins all of his work to create a melting pot. 

The raping and raiding a few of the more wilding types commit is different from what those southroners in power and high lord seats commit how exactly? The Night's Watch and other people up north also trade with the free folk, so there are the good in there as well, and it also shows the free folk and northerners are capable of understandings. Lord COmmander Mormont even offers to escort Craster and his daughters south of the wall for protection (the NW true purpose). The free folk are humans, as Val says during one of Jon's other off page visits with her...

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you."

She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

ADDING AGAIN because I couldn't find the quote in time: George RR Martin gave his words and ideas of unity to Val, the one who is playing half the role of the new Nymeria.

"I'm not an "American First" (and maybe because I read science fiction) I'm a "Terran First". I'm a human being first. And I have this sympathy for other human beings no matter what side of the giant ice wall they happen to be born on."

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Ummm...I kind of dont know how to respond to this. Surely you know that GRRM has said in multiple interviews that Sansa and Sandor is not a thing? And again if this was the story D&D would have told it, GRRM would have told them to do it. I think Jon has to have close connections to Sansa if he's going to kill Dany for her. That is such a huge plot point, I dont think it can be messed with.

Did you not watch the show? THEY MESSED WITH EVERYONE! (yes, I am being a tad cheeky because the show is so obvious :lol:)

But GRRM has also talked about how Sansa and Sandor think and dream of each other and the whole beauty and the beast thing, which I won't go in to right now because it is getting too late for that. Also, GRRM said Sandor (the Hound aspect of him) is a straight reuse of Bretan Braith from Dying of the Light... so paying attention to his older stories is important all around.

But if we follow what you suggest, again if this was Sansa's story (incest with her brother-cousin) D&D would have told it.

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Yes, werewolves this time, instead of vampires. I don't think this really has anything to do with the observation that Jon needs to listen to cooler heads.

It is a major plot point and not one to be missed.

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Robb should have listened to Cat, and Jon should have listened to Sansa. She was trying to give him everything he ever wanted (ruling at Winterfell, his family) but he was a total idiot about it. Again this ties back into his prejudice against feminine usefulness, which could be laying the groundwork for more mistakes on Jon's part. 

Jon doesn't want to be ruler at Winterfell, that's the thing. Maybe the show tried to sneak this in... somehow :dunno:, but show and book Jon does not want to take anything away from his siblings, including "Lady Lannister".

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Yes I get the history/truth point, but perhaps I should say he should be less naive and trusting of people. He needs to be cunning, that sometimes involves lies. He is already lying to Sam and Stannis for the greater good so I don't really share your observation about lies. They can be done for the greater good (Ned for example?)

Eddard lied to protect his family, not to manipulate himself politically. If Jon starts lying, then he is no better than the snakes and vipers in the pit that is King's Landing.

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Ok I'm stopping for today because this is getting too involved and I need to go run errands. It was nice chatting with you about these nuances in Jon's story. At least someone cares!

Ack! Errands are my nemesis. Have fun.

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On 7/16/2019 at 8:18 PM, teej6 said:

Are posters still making the Jon/Sansa pairing? :ack: Looks like this nonsensical fanfic ship will never end. 

On 7/17/2019 at 2:27 AM, kissdbyfire said:

I kinda hoped that the stupid show would have annihilated this idea, but I guess I was wrong. And if Jonsa was a book thing, no way David and Dan would have passed on it. As fierce and resilient Jonsa shippers tend to be, I'd say the vast majority of viewers wouldn't have seen it coming, so easy money for them, a big OMFG moment w/o even having to think about it. 

If Jonsa were a thing in the books, they would have done it without question; if they'd have included Val and the Alayne-Sansa storyline, this fandom would have very different shipping wars.

Oh my! Can you imagine if Daenerys tried to get Val to bend the knee? Tumblr would be filled with photosets and gifs of it with Intagram filters over it all, debating which one they ship with Jon harder - with a few fringe fans being all "Dany/Val is OTP" or whatever.

On 7/16/2019 at 8:16 PM, SeanF said:

While I'm sure Val can defend herself, I see her more as a volva, than a warrior woman.  Her great skill is negotiation. She seems able to travel safely through dangerous places, perhaps suggesting that both wildlings and Others see her person as sacrosanct.

I agree. Val can certainly defend herself and cause a raucous if she wants to;

All the same, the wildling princess was not beloved of her gaolers. She scorned them all as "kneelers," and had thrice attempted to escape. When one man-at-arms grew careless in her presence she had snatched his dagger from its sheath and stabbed him in the neck. Another inch to the left and he might have died.

But when I think of her, I think of her keeping her

word to Jon Snow and completing the task he trusted her with. She said she would return with or without Tormund...

"He may not heed your words, but he will hear them." Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. "You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope."
Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air. Jon Snow drew back and said, "The only thanks I want is—"
"Tormund Giantsbane, aye" ...
 
And she succeeded. So, I have always seen her as a diplomat first, valkyrie second.
 
On 7/16/2019 at 5:55 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Basically Val is a “Warrior” in the same way Nymeria was a “warrior”. 

 
That's a good way of describing it.
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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 9:31 AM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but it is based on the idea that they adapted George's WTF moments rather than coming up with their own, possibly things that fit better with THEIR VERSION OF THE STORY - which is the story they ended telling, not George's. 

To be clear - the Jon-Dany thing and/or the burning of KL definitely counts as a WTF moment. I'm just not sure how we can be sure that this is something George came up with or something they came up with.

This dovetails nicely into something that I have been kicking around since the show ended.  In other threads of this forum, for the past couple of years, I have put forth a theory that I gathered from quotes from GRRM.  Namely, he hoped to have Winds done by end of 2015 so it would be released in early 2016, before the show aired Season 6.  He felt, at the time, that it was an achievable goal.  For this goal to be achievable, I feel a substantial portion of the novel had to have been completed.

But something started discouraging him. He mentioned in interviews that he grew unhappy with choices that he made. During that time, Season 5 of the show had been released.  For the longest time, I suggested that Tyrion arriving before Dany had left Meereen was the discouraging point.  For all the shows faults (and there are numerous in the later seasons), I felt that Tyrion arriving prior to Dany leaving Meereen was an excellent choice that better melded the Meereen/Essos arc.

However, in light of the finale, I realize that this choice created a butterfly effect that makes it a difficult sell for Dany to burn King's Landing, which I believe is supposed to be the Third Twist.

There are numerous blogs (the Meereense Blot and Politics of Ice and Fire both have thorough essays on the topic) have discussed Danaerys' mental state in Dance and that there is going to be a darker Dany in Winds of Winter.  One of them, I cannot recall which at the time, suggested that her final chapter of Dance would be viewed, at the end, as one of the most pivotal chapters in the entire series.  I had recently reread Dance before Season 8 came out, and I think this view lends credence to her turn. 

She is a desperate girl, wanting a home and the peace that home brings, but not finding belonging.  Her hallucinations beckon her to remember who she is (Mother of Dragons) and her words (Fire and Blood).  My thoughts are that we are going to see the characterization turning Daenerys into a villain start in Winds and continue throughout the series (though my hope is that she turns around by the end and realizes that Fire and Blood isn't the way either. *more on this below)

The introduction of Tyrion in Meereen during Season 5 prevents her from going into this complete descent. 

So the show tried to force the book ending on the show, even though the show had made choices that made the book ending no longer plausible.  That is the summation that I have come to.

(**in another side note - I think Dany burning King's Landing is actually going to be against Aegon and Jon Con.  Jon Con is frequently haunted by the sound of the bells from the Battle of the Bells, and I think that is foreshadowing the destruction of King's Landing that we saw in Season 8 (aptly titled, the Bells)

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On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

When he has his waking slaver dream about taking Winterfell, that is when Ghost shows up to remind him who he is. 

It seems like Jon takes this to mean he needs to keep his vows to defend the realm, not that he needs to hang out with Val more.

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Dany and Jon have not met and don't even know about each other yet. 

I hope they don't meet at all, but I can see Jon being in a toxic relationship with Dany in the books. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I have said before in this very thread that Jon will be King of Winter, and ancient title linked to Starks and first men, of which the free folk are.

If Jon as King of Winter is what GRRM is going for, it seems contradictory to have the Kings of Winter in the crypts disapprove of him being down there, in his dream. Bran has had more scenes around those figures in the crypt than Jon right now. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

And if that was the case, and the point is to have another (boring at this point) incest ship between Sansa and her brother-cousin, why didn't GRRM tell the D's to use this? Why did we not get any of that on screen?

I'm not saying that Jon x Sansa is canon (though I think it should be in some form because of the Ned x Cat vibes). I think it is interesting (and healthy) for Jon to have interactions with women outside of his narrow circle of free folk. Jon and Sansa can learn a lot from each other. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is short for Valerian, as in the flower, because free folk women have flower names. Dalla is actually based on a horse, but that is for other similar reasons. Valerian/Valyrian is a play on words for both the fire and ice side of the story.

There is also a Val(erie)in Fevre Dream, a beautiful, bland, basic vampire who switches sides to join up with Joshua, who also wants to unify his people. She's so important that she has no impact on the storyline and dies half way through the book. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

 Why on earth would it be a warning to Jon to not trust blondes???  Sorry, but this is a completely odd line of reasoning here. I have provided much text to back up my words in this thread, please feel free to do the same when making odd comments like this. How has Val done anything against Jon or the NW or the people of Westeros? 

Not "blondes" but the idea of beauty being deceptive is coming through his storyline because Stannis had that warning. He sees her as stereotypical Hot Warrior Princess and I wonder if there is unreliable narrator going on here because he doesn't really know her. It's just like, pretty face, good at tracking, can ride a horse, check.

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

ADDING AGAIN because I couldn't find the quote in time: George RR Martin gave his words and ideas of unity to Val, the one who is playing half the role of the new Nymeria.

Well I guess mains like Asha, Sansa, and Arya wont have any storylines about unifying people or defending people from conquerors, and Arya won't have anything to do with her own direwolf's namesake. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

GRRM said Sandor (the Hound aspect of him) is a straight reuse of Bretan Braith from Dying of the Light... so paying attention to his older stories is important all around.

If I recall he said Bretan was a mix of Sandor and Loras, not just Sandor. Lumping those two dead-end suitors together makes sense.

Quote

 

But GRRM has also talked about how Sansa and Sandor think and dream of each other and the whole beauty and the beast thing, which I won't go in to right now because it is getting too late for that.

 

There is no true BATB in ASOIAF except Jaime and Brienne. Sandor is not Vincent from BATB the TV show. Vincent was a literature buff who quotes Byron and Shakespeare. Meanwhile, Sandor's terms of endearment are "I should have fucked her bloody" or "If you scream, I'll kill you." :wub: Sandor is also not the original beast in La Belle et la Bête, who is polite, courteous, and mild-mannered. GRRM talked about how he doesn't understand the "SanSan" thing. I dont know where GRRM has talked about Sandor and Sansa dreaming about each other. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon doesn't want to be ruler at Winterfell, that's the thing. Maybe the show tried to sneak this in... somehow :dunno:, but show and book Jon does not want to take anything away from his siblings, including "Lady Lannister".

I think wanting to be Lord at WF is subconscious and the logical extension of his desire to be a Stark, to be recognized as a Stark by his father. He calls himself the Lord of Winterfell in his dark dream on the Wall. If a person feels guilt about something it's usually a sign that they want it, deep down. In the show, Sansa is validating him as a Stark and trying to restore him as head of the House. Only a Stark can do that.

"Lady Lannister." :thumbsdown: Jon says Winterfell belongs to Sansa because he's rightly ignoring her marriage to Tyrion which was coercive. He knows she wouldn't choose that. She isn't a Lannister, she's a Stark, and she doesn't want to be a Lannister. 

On 7/16/2019 at 6:30 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

If Jon starts lying, then he is no better than the snakes and vipers in the pit that is King's Landing.

He already lied to his best friend and his girlfriend. There are multiple instances of Jon lying to do what needs to be done. All of the Starks, save maybe Bran, have to learn to lie to survive. Jon isn't doing that for selfish reasons, obviously. Starks are getting more grey not less. 

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3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I hope they don't meet at all, but I can see Jon being in a toxic relationship with Dany in the books. 

Reading ADWD, everyone was expecting to see Tyrion meeting Daenerys and help her in this Meeree's knot/pit. But it didn't happen. And in TWOW... GRRM to Entertainment Weekly: 

Spoiler

Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart.... They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home

I wonder if Jon and Dany will not be the same.

Anyway, IMO D&D removed Val to make sense of Jon+Dany. Jon would not fall in love with her, with Val around. Given Sansa and Daenerys bitching, I imagine adding Val must have been tempting.

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On 7/20/2019 at 12:58 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Anyway, IMO D&D removed Val to make sense of Jon+Dany. Jon would not fall in love with her, with Val around. Given Sansa and Daenerys bitching, I imagine adding Val must have been tempting.

I think Val is going to die though...because GRRM is an equal opportunity ship killer and no one can be happy in a relationship except maybe Sam and Gilly.

One "shocking twist theory" going around on twitter is that Jon would have to kill Dany while she was pregnant with his kid, but HBO cut it because the backlash would be worse. Thoughts?

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