So what was the third "oh shit" moment?

[SeanF]

11 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Val is going to die though...because GRRM is an equal opportunity ship killer and no one can be happy in a relationship except maybe Sam and Gilly.

One "shocking twist theory" going around on twitter is that Jon would have to kill Dany while she was pregnant with his kid, but HBO cut it because the backlash would be worse. Thoughts?

IMHO, at some point in the books, Jon will have to choose between the Starks and Daenerys, and not necessarily because Daenerys is a tyrant, simply that she and the Starks are antagonists.  If Daenerys were carrying his own child, it would raise the stakes, certainly.

[BalerionTheCat]

20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Val is going to die though

Maybe. Jon is the Frodo of the story. I believe his death means he will be different. Something not dying. Like the Waif. Maybe like Melisandre, as some believe. The watcher on the walls. Maybe for as long as the legendary Empire of Dawn. Doesn't seem to go well with a wife and a family.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 7/20/2019 at 12:18 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

It seems like Jon takes this to mean he needs to keep his vows to defend the realm, not that he needs to hang out with Val more.

It is both. History isn't what has been reported and Jon is learning this along the way.

Quote

I hope they don't meet at all, but I can see Jon being in a toxic relationship with Dany in the books. 

Answered by @Balerionthecat above

GRRM has never, ever, ever, never, ever, written any incest to be positive in his stories. They always bring down a dynasty. This does include aunts and (sister) cousins as the canon tells us. Even Jon was grossed out (per D&D) when he learned he was sexing on his aunt, and Jon knows Dany as basically a stranger, not a sister like Arya and Sansa who are of his clan kin.

Quote

If Jon as King of Winter is what GRRM is going for, it seems contradictory to have the Kings of Winter in the crypts disapprove of him being down there, in his dream. Bran has had more scenes around those figures in the crypt than Jon right now. 

I'm not saying that Jon x Sansa is canon (though I think it should be in some form because of the Ned x Cat vibes). I think it is interesting (and healthy) for Jon to have interactions with women outside of his narrow circle of free folk. Jon and Sansa can learn a lot from each other. 

No, no Ned and Cat vibes. Cat wanted Jon dead. NOT hating on Cat, but she is a firewoman who was in her ways against Jon. Fire lady vs old gods dude... it'sa a thing in this story.

Quote

There is also a Val(erie)in Fevre Dream, a beautiful, bland, basic vampire who switches sides to join up with Joshua, who also wants to unify his people. She's so important that she has no impact on the storyline and dies half way through the book.

Well aware of this Valerie character. However, keep in mind that these aren't exact 1:1 stories, and the Val-type exists in Melantha Jhirl, the Bitterspeaker+Janis Ryther, Holly, Randi Wade, Jennifer, and Maggie. ASOIAF Val is the combo of Valeria and Cynthia. These are all based on GRRM's impression of Altair played by Anne Francis, and yes, that includes the connection to historic Nymeria. This is the only story where a Val-type, or part of the prototype, dies- but not fully. Just as this type is always put with a Jon-type and that Jon-type dies sometimes, but not always but a long shot. It depends on the story. But what we have is a Val & Jon, never a Jon and Dany or Sansa or Arya or even Arianne type.

And I don't get why you keep inferring women who have their own agency, are trusted by the mains, are sent on missions by the mains, want unity with the mains, can do things like fight their own battles, drink a bulb of beer, are extremely smart at chess (a euphemism for politics per GRRM), and happens to be attractive to the main is basic? By the way, this is the exact opposite, but similar, argument that Arya+Jon shippers use. That Jon wants a tomboy! So, I guess there is a ship's race being scheduled? That would be the Eclipse (get it?).

Quote

 

Not "blondes" but the idea of beauty being deceptive is coming through his storyline because Stannis had that warning. He sees her as stereotypical Hot Warrior Princess and I wonder if there is unreliable narrator going on here because he doesn't really know her.

No. Stannis is trying to use Val as coin to con some dude in to taking Winterfell so that Stannis instantly gains Northern loyalty. Using women as coin is a gross practice across all of Planetos, and one that the author is making us question and revolt against.

Quote

It's just like, pretty face, good at tracking, can ride a horse, check.

And? These are means of survival in this world, especially for a female to have these skills and to not be raped and killed. This is the same symbolism behind Jon giving Arya her own Needle (a euphemism for penis/ personal agency).

Quote

Well I guess mains like Asha, Sansa, and Arya wont have any storylines about unifying people or defending people from conquerors, and Arya won't have anything to do with her own direwolf's namesake. 

Now, now. This is just anger driven hyperbole. I have not said anything near close to this at all during our conversation.

I do believe that I actually said the opposite about Arya a few posts ago. Asha is an extremely interesting character and of course she is because she is most likely going to undo the Iron Born misogynistic/unlearned/unread ways. And I have already addressed the agency and learning that Sansa is already doing on page, and I even referenced her lady's armour and what she is/could be doing in TWOW.

What do these woman have to do with Jon and Val's arc?

Why would you think only one person can work towards any sort of reformation?

Quote

If I recall he said Bretan was a mix of Sandor and Loras, not just Sandor. Lumping those two dead-end suitors together makes sense.

There's a video (filmed in Sweden I think) where someone asks GRRM about Sandor and Bretan and he confirms the Hound aspect is directly taken from Bretan Braith. I tried to find the video, but lost it , but did ask Ran about it a few weeks ago (because he was at the recording) and Ran also confirmed this. I have not heard/read the comparison you are speaking about but would love a link to it if you have it.

Quote

There is no true BATB in ASOIAF except Jaime and Brienne. Sandor is not Vincent from BATB the TV show. Vincent was a literature buff who quotes Byron and Shakespeare. Meanwhile, Sandor's terms of endearment are "I should have fucked her bloody" or "If you scream, I'll kill you."  Sandor is also not the original beast in La Belle et la Bête, who is polite, courteous, and mild-mannered. GRRM talked about how he doesn't understand the "SanSan" thing. I dont know where GRRM has talked about Sandor and Sansa dreaming about each other. 

“In A Song of Ice and Fire, I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own.” –GRRM

I would never expect GRRM to copy any story as an exact 1:1 from beginning to end. It would be an extremely boring story to already know what happens as soon as it starts.

I actually ususally never get into the Beauty and Beast Sansa discussions but I do enjoy reading them. Here are a few things I have learned along the way.

GRRM requested ASOIAF calendar art of Sansa and Sandor that's just like the movie poster:

Sansa and the Hound as La Belle et la Bête

... which by the way he has hanging on his office wall.

And he wrote a scene for the show paralleling La Belle et la Bete:

The scene he wrote for Blackwater

And he put a romantic picture of them called SanSan on his website.

There is something the fandom humorously calls 'Sandor Speak'. There was a good thread that 'translated' Sandor speak, but alas, in some forum update more than a year ago many, many threads were eaten including this one. However, GRRM gave Sandor the Beast's lines such as:

La Belle et la Bête (Beauty and the Beast): One does not call me "my Lord"; one calls me "Beast." I don't like compliments.

Sansa and the Hound: "Spare me your empty little compliments, girl … and your ser's. I am no knight.... And I'm no lord..."

And there's lots more, he also said "there's something there" and there's more to come:

"You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes [there's only been one so far], that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

And as for the TV show, he wanted the actor who played the Beast in the TV show to play the Hound:

"Ron was twice nominated for an Emmy for his portrayal of Vincent. If anyone ever makes a film of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, I wanted him to play the Hound."

And yeah the point of Beauty and the BEAST, it's not actually a story about a sweet guy. Who knew?

The Beast is NOT mild mannered in either La Belle et la Bete or the TV show. He had his gentle side but as GRRM always points out, the Beast is violent. He often describes Sansa saying Sandor is gentle with her, and yet he is violent by nature because... he's the Beast. Gonna have to go with the author's words on this unless he shows us otherwise. So far there is something there, and it is kept alive by the 'whisperjewel' of Sandor's green cloak that Sansa kept (whisperjewels being a key component across Martinworld). The show never hinted at anything between Jon and Sansa, and neither has the books, so I don't see this sporadically happening 2/3 of the way through TWOW, or even worse, all the way out into ADOS.

Quote

I think wanting to be Lord at WF is subconscious and the logical extension of his desire to be a Stark, to be recognized as a Stark by his father. He calls himself the Lord of Winterfell in his dark dream on the Wall. If a person feels guilt about something it's usually a sign that they want it, deep down. In the show, Sansa is validating him as a Stark and trying to restore him as head of the House. Only a Stark can do that.

"

Except, Jon isn't just a Stark or Targaryen, he is something else. He is an aspect of the old gods that identifies with itself, the same reason why Bloodraven (a recurring aspect of Jon & Bran throughout ALL of Martinworld), it is why Brynden Bloodraven Rivers rejected being a fire Targ, or even Blackwood. He chose to be Brynden Bloodraven Rivers (again Fevre Dream reference). Jon is not either Stark or Targ, he is a Snow and he will own that word (as Tyrion teaches him) and he will be Jon Snow, King of Winter. And I do believe that on the show when Arya and Jon meet again in the godswood, that Arya also gives him the "be true to your family" speech. That was not a Sansa mission on her own. And it doesn't mean anything more than the overall thematic of the story of personal identity.

Quote

Lady Lannister."  Jon says Winterfell belongs to Sansa because he's rightly ignoring her marriage to Tyrion which was coercive. He knows she wouldn't choose that. She isn't a Lannister, she's a Stark, and she doesn't want to be a Lannister. 

He already lied to his best friend and his girlfriend. There are multiple instances of Jon lying to do what needs to be done. All of the Starks, save maybe Bran, have to learn to lie to survive. Jon isn't doing that for selfish reasons, obviously. Starks are getting more grey not less. 

I agree that the snide comment "Lady Lannister" sucks because it is not true!!!!! (Sorry, quoter is now going goofy and I cannot break responses up???) If Jon starts and continues lying to everyone now to get what he wants, and if he reeealllly wanted Winterfell, he would have lied for that. But he didn't- certainly not in the books nor the show. And Stark greyness has always been all over. It is our introduction to the Ned that taints the way readers assume all Starks are. The wild wolf, the wolfishness that gets people killed too early, the kneeling wolf... none of them are the same same, but they aren't getting worse either. But again, lies and arbor gold = political deathtraps. Jon cannot fall into this trap or he will be just as greasy as the other snakes in the den.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/13/2019 at 12:46 AM, Br16 said:

Bet Tywin's chart got Saturn and Capricorn all over it.

Oh absolutely. Add a nice helping of Scorpio in for good measure. 

Sansa's chart is probably monopolized by Taurus, Pisces and Libra.

On 7/16/2019 at 9:04 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont know, he needs to be challenged on his erroneous assumptions that the only useful women are warrior women. Val and to some extent Dany only reinforce that belief. He keeps trashing women who sit in towers and blushing maids. Well, the woman he just described is his sister Sansa. No skill at arms but useful in the political game. He definitely needed that in a partner.

I don't know.

Dany seems to be the perfect middle ground between women like Sansa and Cersei and women like Val and Ygritte. She's a hoity-toity princess born and bred but she has an action-junkie, skyscraping wild side that will only get wilder as time goes on.

Dany IMO is the perfect woman for Jon.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/2/2019 at 4:33 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't know if it will be as bad in the books. If it will end "bittersweet" rather than "fucking mad". But GRRM was setting Meereen and everything in Daenerys's path to piss her grand. To give her cause to nuke everything. And from our beloved dead characters, errors are generally payed big in GRRM's story.

Concerning a love affair with Jon. I don't know either. But I don't like it at all. I see them opposite regarding free will and the shaping of others life, of imposing oneself to others. I'm sure they will meet and have dealings with each other. But I don't like the idea of Jon loving this woman. Daenerys previous love affairs were monsters, Khal Drogo and Daario. The books have Val. And to me, Val is the woman matching Jon. Period.

Why does everyone forget about Ygritte? Jon has had Ygritte and Val and they are far from the ideal of the Virgin Mary.

Remember I didn't say that Jon will be falling in love with Daenerys.

I said that Daenerys will be falling in love with Jon.

[BlackLightning]

On 7/22/2019 at 6:32 AM, SeanF said:

IMHO, at some point in the books, Jon will have to choose between the Starks and Daenerys, and not necessarily because Daenerys is a tyrant, simply that she and the Starks are antagonists.  If Daenerys were carrying his own child, it would raise the stakes, certainly.

That's what I think to.

Even when you factor in the Others, the Starks and Daenerys are clearly on different trajectories. They may have the same wants and feel the same emotions, but they have radically different lifestyles and perspectives and goals. And they will clash. Bran and Daenerys won't but I think Sansa and Arya will.

Daenerys will be impregnated by Jon...it's practically guaranteed. Will she carry the baby to full term? Will the baby be healthy/lucky enough to survive infancy? Will the baby live long enough to see some version adulthood? Those can't be answered but Daenerys is definitely getting pregnant.

Jon is going to have to choose between the Starks and the Targaryens. I feel like Tyrion is going to break bad and become a big bad villain and manipulate Jon into killing his own wife and child...who will then be avenged by Sansa.

Yes, you read that right. I think the giant that the maiden (Sansa) is going to slay in the castle of snow will be Tyrion. Not Littlefinger. The first time we see Tyrion he is described as a giant.

[SeanF]

What was the third Oh shit!  moment?

The reveal that Daenerys is in fact, the Prince of Darkness, in the script for the final episode.

[Ser Drewy]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

What was the third Oh shit!  moment?

The reveal that Daenerys is in fact, the Prince of Darkness, in the script for the final episode.

I like to think it was when people were no longer tolerating/excusing their bad writing anymore. I'm sure that was an "oh shit!" moment for them  

[hewman]

32 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The reveal that Daenerys is in fact, the Prince of Darkness,

Good Lord! Does Ozzy Osbourne know there’s another Prince Of Darkness out there. A younger and more beautiful one on top of everything!

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, hewman said:

Good Lord! Does Ozzy Osbourne know there’s another Prince Of Darkness out there. A younger and more beautiful one on top of everything!

Yes, here's Daenerys as the Prince of Darkness.  If you look closely, you'll see she gives the sign of horns as she takes off.

[hewman]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The sign of horns as she takes off.

Well my opinion doesn’t count since I’m a Targaryenist (And an AcDc fan :))) and therefore subjective, but I still believe she deserved a Jaime for lover instead of that treacherous  muhqueenslayer.

[Rose of Red Lake]

GRRM in the 2014 Al Jazeera interview gave it away.

She's the fire to the Others' ice--a "greater and more dangerous threat" that almost everyone is blind to. 

This is why the added scene where Joffrey was worried about Daenerys is so funny.

Cersei and Euron were red herrings!

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

GRRM in the 2014 Al Jazeera interview gave it away.

She's the fire to the Others' ice--a "greater and more dangerous threat" that almost everyone is blind to. 

This is why the added scene where Joffrey was worried about Daenerys is so funny.

Cersei and Euron were red herrings!

Do you have a link, because that doesn't make much sense to me?

Dragons can kill lots of people, but the Others threaten to extinguish humanity completely.  The latter seems like a massively bigger threat.

[Rose of Red Lake]

14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Do you have a link, because that doesn't make much sense to me?

Dragons can kill lots of people, but the Others threaten to extinguish humanity completely.  The latter seems like a massively bigger threat.

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/talk-to-al-jazeera/articles/2014/11/13/george-rr-martintalkstodavidshuster.html

Third question. The whole answer is about the dangers of ignoring conquerors. 

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/shows/talk-to-al-jazeera/articles/2014/11/13/george-rr-martintalkstodavidshuster.html

Third question. The whole answer is about the dangers of ignoring conquerors. 

Philip of Macedon threatened the freedom of the Greek city states, but he wasn't an existential threat to the Greeks in the way that the Others are to the people of Westeros.  So, yes, I could see that if the different House of Westeros quarrel among themselves, they'll make Daenerys' job much easier, but that doesn't suggest that Daenerys is a threat to life itself.

[Rose of Red Lake]

48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Philip of Macedon threatened the freedom of the Greek city states, but he wasn't an existential threat to the Greeks in the way that the Others are to the people of Westeros.  So, yes, I could see that if the different House of Westeros quarrel among themselves, they'll make Daenerys' job much easier, but that doesn't suggest that Daenerys is a threat to life itself.

If she kills as many people as the Night King though? He says greater and more dangerous threatS - plural - and collapses Ice and Fire into the same kind of elemental threats that represent climate change. He's not really ranking them here, although he did that in the original outline and put Dany as threat #2. Anyway, this was the interview that gave away the ending for me.

[SeanF]

15 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

If she kills as many people as the Night King though? He says greater and more dangerous threatS - plural - and collapses Ice and Fire into the same kind of elemental threats that represent climate change. He's not really ranking them here, although he did that in the original outline and put Dany as threat #2. Anyway, this was the interview that gave away the ending for me.

I think she'll be a terrible threat to some of the Great House, but not to humanity in general.

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I think she'll be a terrible threat to some of the Great House, but not to humanity in general.

Got it. Dragons are only a threat people making over 100k a year. 

[SeanF]

46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Got it. Dragons are only a threat people making over 100k a year. 

Mostly.   If you're claiming the Throne, you're going to be much more interested in eliminating rival claimants than in eliminating random peasants.

[Rose of Red Lake]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

Mostly.   If you're claiming the Throne, you're going to be much more interested in eliminating rival claimants than in eliminating random peasants.

This assumes that rival claimants can simply be eliminated that easily. Why would the author let Dany have an easy out? Her targeting cities is probably the only way she thinks she can win. 

Also dragons fuck shit up and Dany is pretty manic about fire so I think you're overestimating her rationality here.