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Canon Claude

Gareth Long and Unwin Peake were utter fools

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Posted (edited)

Did they really think they could mistreat and abuse Aegon III and never expect any kind of reprisals when he came of age? Gareth Long's idea of discipline was vulgar at best, horrific at worst, and it made him an enemy of Aegon III. What was he expecting when the boy king became 16? Would he forget all the hostility and anger towards his arms instructor? 

I get it, they were power-hungry in a backwards patriarchy, but they really seem so short-sighted in their pursuit of power. Aegon was going to become the king and then he would be free to order their deaths with a single command. Send them to the Wall, have them killed on some suicidal mission, even put them on trial for one reason or another (assuming they didn't conspire against him first), and since they didn't make any friends, nobody would have objected to that kind of revenge. 

Honestly, it makes sense that Peake and his cronies conspired to kill Aegon, given how terrified they must have been of his forthcoming vengeance for all the mistreatment, neglect, and abuse which he received at their hands.

Edited by Canon Claude

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5 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Did they really think they could mistreat and abuse Aegon III and never expect any kind of reprisals when he came of age? Gareth Long's idea of discipline was vulgar at best, horrific at worst, and it made him an enemy of Aegon III. What was he expecting when the boy king became 16? Would he forget all the hostility and anger towards his arms instructor? 

I get it, they were power-hungry in a backwards patriarchy, but they really seem so short-sighted in their pursuit of power. Aegon was going to become the king and then he would be free to order their deaths with a single command. Send them to the Wall, have them killed on some suicidal mission, even put them on trial for one reason or another (assuming they didn't conspire against him first), and since they didn't make any friends, nobody would have objected to that kind of revenge. 

Honestly, it makes sense that Peake and his cronies conspired to kill Aegon, given how terrified they must have been of his forthcoming vengeance for all the mistreatment, neglect, and abuse which he received at their hands.

If Aegon was truly that petty that he'd kill or punish two former members of his court, then he'd deserve to be overthrown and conspired against. 

I do agree, though, those men were fools not to kill him sooner and spare Westeros the reign of the Broken King, the foolish warlord king, and the holy fool Baelor. We could have had years and years of Viserys as a ruler instead of a brooding emo boy and his useless sons.

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7 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Did they really think they could mistreat and abuse Aegon III and never expect any kind of reprisals when he came of age? Gareth Long's idea of discipline was vulgar at best, horrific at worst, and it made him an enemy of Aegon III. What was he expecting when the boy king became 16? Would he forget all the hostility and anger towards his arms instructor? 

I get it, they were power-hungry in a backwards patriarchy, but they really seem so short-sighted in their pursuit of power. Aegon was going to become the king and then he would be free to order their deaths with a single command. Send them to the Wall, have them killed on some suicidal mission, even put them on trial for one reason or another (assuming they didn't conspire against him first), and since they didn't make any friends, nobody would have objected to that kind of revenge. 

Honestly, it makes sense that Peake and his cronies conspired to kill Aegon, given how terrified they must have been of his forthcoming vengeance for all the mistreatment, neglect, and abuse which he received at their hands.

You have to keep in mind that 'coming of age' doesn't necessarily mean that a person actually rules in his/her own right. Cersei indicates that she may be forced to continue running Tommen's government even after he comes of age, and Lord Cregan Stark wasn't allowed to rule in his own right after he came of age - he had to rise up and imprison his uncle and cousins to actually become the Lord of Winterfell in his own right.

It seems clear that Peake intended to run Aegon III's government long after the king came of age. He even did everything to encourage him to not attend his own council session. The plan to marry his daughter to Aegon III has to be seen in that context - Peake planned to stabilize his position as 'true king' by becoming the puppet king's father-in-law. Should the boy become too difficult but had already fathered children on Myrielle after he had come of age, he could always die - that Peake is capable of trying to murder his king and queen we see in FaB.

You actually show your own naiveté if you believe Aegon III could have taken power in his own hands automatically simply because he turned sixteen. He only could do that because the formal and informal power his regents and other courtiers had acquired during the Regency was broken due to their own infighting. If Peake's toadies still had had all their offices, if he himself had still had been Hand, regent, and Protector of the Realm, protected by his own guard, with his men dominating the Kingsguard, Aegon III would have continued to be his puppet ... and his hostage.

As for Gareth Long - I think that guy was merely a particularly harsh drill instructor. He would have seen it as his duty to train Aegon III the way he had trained any recruit up to this point, and there is really no indication that royal children are supposed to be treated gently or as special people in the training yard. It is clear that it was not particularly smart to antagonize the king instead of trying to befriend him, but Aegon III's character made it not easy to befriend him, anyway. One also assumes that Long wanted to do please Peake first and the impotent boy king second.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You have to keep in mind that 'coming of age' doesn't necessarily mean that a person actually rules in his/her own right. Cersei indicates that she may be forced to continue running Tommen's government even after he comes of age, and Lord Cregan Stark wasn't allowed to rule in his own right after he came of age - he had to rise up and imprison his uncle and cousins to actually become the Lord of Winterfell in his own right.

It seems clear that Peake intended to run Aegon III's government long after the king came of age. He even did everything to encourage him to not attend his own council session. The plan to marry his daughter to Aegon III has to be seen in that context - Peake planned to stabilize his position as 'true king' by becoming the puppet king's father-in-law. Should the boy become too difficult but had already fathered children on Myrielle after he had come of age, he could always die - that Peake is capable of trying to murder his king and queen we see in FaB.

You actually show your own naiveté if you believe Aegon III could have taken power in his own hands automatically simply because he turned sixteen. He only could do that because the formal and informal power his regents and other courtiers had acquired during the Regency was broken due to their own infighting. If Peake's toadies still had had all their offices, if he himself had still had been Hand, regent, and Protector of the Realm, protected by his own guard, with his men dominating the Kingsguard, Aegon III would have continued to be his puppet ... and his hostage.

As for Gareth Long - I think that guy was merely a particularly harsh drill instructor. He would have seen it as his duty to train Aegon III the way he had trained any recruit up to this point, and there is really no indication that royal children are supposed to be treated gently or as special people in the training yard. It is clear that it was not particularly smart to antagonize the king instead of trying to befriend him, but Aegon III's character made it not easy to befriend him, anyway. One also assumes that Long wanted to do please Peake first and the impotent boy king second.

Fair points, though I doubt Peake was ever going to become that powerful. Look at how the realm revolted on Aegon’s behalf when Peake tried to marry his daughter into the royal family. Look at how Baela and Rhaena Targaryen stepped in and undid all of Unwin’s  planning at the Cattle Show. And it wasn’t even the infighting which drove Peake out of King’s Landing. He was so angry about Viserys’ return to King’s Landing that he blustered his way into resigning as Hand of the King and nobody protested or stood up for him. He had to resort to underhanded dealings to make any real advancement, and even then it never worked out. The other regents weren’t his, and not even all the positions he filled up weren’t enough to stop Viserys and Aegon.

And really, Aegon’s epic takeover of power didn’t require any real kind of force. He knew his authority, the regents knew it, and even when he ruined months of planning, nothing was done in defiance except to gnash their teeth and obey the king’s commands. Aegon III gets an unfair rep as being weak, when he was clearly anything but. Through sheer confidence in his authority, he showed the regents that he was going to do exactly what he wanted, be damned the sensibilities of his treacherous nobles.

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3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Fair points, though I doubt Peake was ever going to become that powerful. Look at how the realm revolted on Aegon’s behalf when Peake tried to marry his daughter into the royal family. Look at how Baela and Rhaena Targaryen stepped in and undid all of Unwin’s  planning at the Cattle Show. And it wasn’t even the infighting which drove Peake out of King’s Landing. He was so angry about Viserys’ return to King’s Landing that he blustered his way into resigning as Hand of the King and nobody protested or stood up for him. He had to resort to underhanded dealings to make any real advancement, and even then it never worked out. The other regents weren’t his, and not even all the positions he filled up weren’t enough to stop Viserys and Aegon.

Oh, he obviously failed. But what I laid out above was clearly his plan. Various factors and people contributed to his downfall, of course, but that doesn't change what he wanted to accomplish. And an Aegon III ruling in his own right simply did not feature in those plans.

Peake's power was not broken by infighting, yes, but the power of the regents and their courtiers in general was. During the aegis of Lannister, Peake, and Rowan the power undoubtedly lay with the regents and (to a much larger degree) the Hands. But the rise and fall of the Rogares resulting in the Secret Siege, etc. really broke the power of the regency establishment - which, at this point, was still heavily under Peake's influence. The way things ended shifted power to Aegon III and, especially, Prince Viserys, as is evident in the latter's role during the informal Great Council. New regents were chosen by lot - which means they had no real power at all, serving as fronts - and the new Hand - who didn't have the time to build himself a proper power base at court.

The only power base Aegon III had when he dismissed his Hand and regents were the new Kingsguard (cleansed of the Green and Peake influence by recent events) and Sandoq the Shadow.

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

And really, Aegon’s epic takeover of power didn’t require any real kind of force. He knew his authority, the regents knew it, and even when he ruined months of planning, nothing was done in defiance except to gnash their teeth and obey the king’s commands. Aegon III gets an unfair rep as being weak, when he was clearly anything but. Through sheer confidence in his authority, he showed the regents that he was going to do exactly what he wanted, be damned the sensibilities of his treacherous nobles.

That worked because the lot regents and Lord Manderly neither had a proper power base at court nor the intention to dominate the young king and his court. Unwin Peake wanted to do that and had the power base to try to do it had he lasted until the king's maturity. Manderly had no such designs (although he did want and thought he would continue as Hand) and the regents seemed to have been happy they could go back home.

If Peake had been running the show we can be sure Aegon III would have been commanded by his Kingsguard rather than the other way around. 

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, he obviously failed. But what I laid out above was clearly his plan. Various factors and people contributed to his downfall, of course, but that doesn't change what he wanted to accomplish. And an Aegon III ruling in his own right simply did not feature in those plans.

Peake's power was not broken by infighting, yes, but the power of the regents and their courtiers in general was. During the aegis of Lannister, Peake, and Rowan the power undoubtedly lay with the regents and (to a much larger degree) the Hands. But the rise and fall of the Rogares resulting in the Secret Siege, etc. really broke the power of the regency establishment - which, at this point, was still heavily under Peake's influence. The way things ended shifted power to Aegon III and, especially, Prince Viserys, as is evident in the latter's role during the informal Great Council. New regents were chosen by lot - which means they had no real power at all, serving as fronts - and the new Hand - who didn't have the time to build himself a proper power base at court.

The only power base Aegon III had when he dismissed his Hand and regents were the new Kingsguard (cleansed of the Green and Peake influence by recent events) and Sandoq the Shadow.

That worked because the lot regents and Lord Manderly neither had a proper power base at court nor the intention to dominate the young king and his court. Unwin Peake wanted to do that and had the power base to try to do it had he lasted until the king's maturity. Manderly had no such designs (although he did want and thought he would continue as Hand) and the regents seemed to have been happy they could go back home.

If Peake had been running the show we can be sure Aegon III would have been commanded by his Kingsguard rather than the other way around. 

Maybe. But I think Aegon would still have advantages over Peake. For one thing, nobody liked Peake. He was going it alone except for his cronies. By default, the nobility of Westeros would intervene on Aegon's behalf (for selfish reasons, of course). Another pair of wild cards were Viserys and Sandoq the Shadow. Sandoq was clearly the best fighter, perhaps the Hound or Areoh Hotah of his day. He was loyal only to the royal family thanks to Lara Rogare, and Aegon was clearly aware enough to use him against his own Kingsguard when they plotted against him. I’ll admit that Aegon wasn’t always strong, it was clearly something he had to grow into. But nothing Peake could do, even filling Aegon’s ranks with Greens, could have stopped that boy from growing up. He had seen too much as a boy to not grow up. He wasn’t a naive kid like Tommen, he had seen his mother die in front of him and had grown up in war. This was a child version of Stannis. And Stannis had a will of iron that couldn’t be bent. Actually, that’s part of the appeal to Aegon III’s story. He seems very much like what Stannis would be like if he ever became king. Unyielding, uninterested in toadies or playing the game, desiring to give peace and justice to the common people, that’s Stannis Baratheon at his best.

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@Ran, would you happen to know if Gareth comes from the same Long house which once held the Wolf's Den? Alternatively, maybe there have been multiple families of that name, like the Fishers (Misty Isle / Stony Shore), Holts (Dorne / north), Lakes (Dorne / north), Shells (Dorne / Vale), Towers (Harrenhal / north), or Wells (Dorne / north).

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We do not know. It seems to me that a name like Long could easily have shown up in several regions, though, so I think it unlikely. All the names we see where this happens are very simple, straightforward names.

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8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Maybe. But I think Aegon would still have advantages over Peake. For one thing, nobody liked Peake. He was going it alone except for his cronies. By default, the nobility of Westeros would intervene on Aegon's behalf (for selfish reasons, of course). Another pair of wild cards were Viserys and Sandoq the Shadow. Sandoq was clearly the best fighter, perhaps the Hound or Areoh Hotah of his day. He was loyal only to the royal family thanks to Lara Rogare, and Aegon was clearly aware enough to use him against his own Kingsguard when they plotted against him. I’ll admit that Aegon wasn’t always strong, it was clearly something he had to grow into. But nothing Peake could do, even filling Aegon’s ranks with Greens, could have stopped that boy from growing up. He had seen too much as a boy to not grow up. He wasn’t a naive kid like Tommen, he had seen his mother die in front of him and had grown up in war. This was a child version of Stannis. And Stannis had a will of iron that couldn’t be bent. Actually, that’s part of the appeal to Aegon III’s story. He seems very much like what Stannis would be like if he ever became king. Unyielding, uninterested in toadies or playing the game, desiring to give peace and justice to the common people, that’s Stannis Baratheon at his best.

You give Aegon way too much credit. He didn't do anything meaningful. If it had been up to Aegon, he would have tossed himself off of the Red Keep when he heard Thadeus Rowan's "confession." Viserys was the one smart enough to see through the sham and he was the one who basically ruled while Aegon was busy brooding, just like every source on Aegon III says. And he was only man enough to take the Small Council with Sandoq the Shadow at his side, who again, was only loyal to Aegon because of Viserys.

No offense meant to you, Steller, but I'm just well and truly sick of people going on and on about what an interesting character Aegon III is, how they want to read all about his life, all while he's the Westerosi equivalent of a Millennial caricature, all while the one who should have been king the entire time is right there. Maybe if Viserys had just kept his mouth shut, Aegon could have flown out of the picture and we'd have gotten Viserys' glorious reign as king where there's no war with Dorne and no bullshit regarding Baelor Targaryen. 

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Posted (edited)

I think denigrating Aegon III as a caricature seems to take away just how traumatized he was by his experiences. His dragon was mortally wounded and died after it took him to safety, his brother he loved was thought lost, his father died, he was forced to witness his mother eaten alive by his uncle's dragon, he became a pawn that everyone had plans for, his only friend was poisoned, and so on.

He's definitely going to live in interesting times -- but those times will feature his brother as well, so surely that's something you're looking forward to! And it's perfectly reasonable that, reading about him, many feel very sympathetic to the tragedies he's suffered.

Edited by Ran

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10 hours ago, James Steller said:

Maybe. But I think Aegon would still have advantages over Peake. For one thing, nobody liked Peake. He was going it alone except for his cronies. By default, the nobility of Westeros would intervene on Aegon's behalf (for selfish reasons, of course).

Would they? If Aegon III continued to behave the way he did during Peake's reign in KL, doing whatever Lord Unwin commanded him to do, and then being escorted back to his chambers? Peake was perhaps not the most popular lord, but I daresay he was much more popular than the broken boy wearing the crown - who was not popular at all. He was a powerful lord in his own right, a veteran general of First and Second Tumbleton, the wielder of a Valyrian steel sword.

And Peake really controlled the entire court while he was regent, Hand, and Protector of the Realm. If that had continued nobody could have ousted him.

10 hours ago, James Steller said:

Another pair of wild cards were Viserys and Sandoq the Shadow. Sandoq was clearly the best fighter, perhaps the Hound or Areoh Hotah of his day. He was loyal only to the royal family thanks to Lara Rogare, and Aegon was clearly aware enough to use him against his own Kingsguard when they plotted against him.

Sure, but Viserys' return was something that was greatly contributing to Peake's downfall. Even if he hadn't resigned as Hand, 

10 hours ago, James Steller said:

I’ll admit that Aegon wasn’t always strong, it was clearly something he had to grow into. But nothing Peake could do, even filling Aegon’s ranks with Greens, could have stopped that boy from growing up. He had seen too much as a boy to not grow up. He wasn’t a naive kid like Tommen, he had seen his mother die in front of him and had grown up in war.

It is not about growing up, but about exerting power. If you control the court and the king's person, then you rule the king, regardless how old he is. And the way to ensure that this never changes would be to never permit the king any kind of freedom. No contact to outsiders, to people you don't trust, no active role in the government of the Realm, no progresses, public audiences, no royal favors granted by the king himself, no permission to write letters not drafted by Peake, etc.

And it should have been - and actually was - rather easy to push as troubled a person as Aegon III out of public life. He was never much inclined to lead or rule, anyway, and his entire character made it essentially impossible that he could ever successfully build up a party of his own. He would never befriend any powerful nobles or heirs or great knights even if he was allowed to hang out with them - because the boy barely talked. 

10 hours ago, James Steller said:

This was a child version of Stannis. And Stannis had a will of iron that couldn’t be bent. Actually, that’s part of the appeal to Aegon III’s story. He seems very much like what Stannis would be like if he ever became king. Unyielding, uninterested in toadies or playing the game, desiring to give peace and justice to the common people, that’s Stannis Baratheon at his best.

Oh, I don't think that's accurate. I agree that there is some steel in Aegon III, but he is basically a deep melancholic person with strong autistic tendencies. Stannis loathes women and most of the men he knows, but he understands how they think and work, and how he can use them to get what he wants. Aegon III doesn't understand such things. He is painstakingly naive, at times, as Gyldayn's account of him actually believing the Rowan charade illustrates - had Viserys not seen through that he would have bought what they fed him.

We can expect pretty good things from him during the rare moments he actually bothers to partake or involve himself in his own government. But those should be rare occurrences considering we already know the man didn't speak for days on occasion. That means most decisions made in his name would have been made by other people - his Hands, his queen (once Daenaera was old enough to play a more active role), Prince Viserys (before he became the Hand) his half-sisters and brothers-in-law, and other officials. Some of them may have been good, but some may also have been bad.

Killing the progress was a bad decision. Sure, the lords don't deserve that he honors or sucks up to them considering their previous conduct, but it could definitely have helped him and his queen personally to gain popularity and thus power in the Realm.

We can, I think, be pretty sure that the Broken King's reign will be troubled by a series of rebellions (various fake Daerons) culminating in the attempt of Alys Rivers and Aemond's son to wrest the Iron Throne from him in the late 140s or around 150 AC (leading to the deaths of the last great Targaryen dragons). And those are likely threats a stronger, more popular king could have easily killed in their infancy. But we can certainly see how a youth who saw his mother devoured by the dragon of his uncle, a boy who lived through the (alleged) deaths of four of his brothers will be even less keen than Aenys Targaryen to unleash dragons against Harrenhal or allow his leal lords and knights to murder his own innocent cousin. Aegon III knows what it means to live through a pointless civil war, he is not likely to start one. And that means he will either ignore Aemond's son until it is too late, or he'll actively try to placate Alys Rivers, thus fueling her ambitions.

6 hours ago, Nittanian said:

@Ran, would you happen to know if Gareth comes from the same Long house which once held the Wolf's Den? Alternatively, maybe there have been multiple families of that name, like the Fishers (Misty Isle / Stony Shore), Holts (Dorne / north), Lakes (Dorne / north), Shells (Dorne / Vale), Towers (Harrenhal / north), or Wells (Dorne / north).

I still like the idea that the Towers of Harrenhal are related to those in the North since Maegor could easily enough have had some Northmen among his sworn swords.

But Gareth Long one expects that guy to come from the Reach, so a relation to some Northmen there would be only very distant.

1 hour ago, Floki of the Ironborn said:

Maybe if Viserys had just kept his mouth shut, Aegon could have flown out of the picture and we'd have gotten Viserys' glorious reign as king where there's no war with Dorne and no bullshit regarding Baelor Targaryen. 

Then we would have still been stuck with the glutton shit-head king who would have undone all his daddy's great works in a fortnight.

But as I laid out above - the idea that he is going to have much impact on his own government is not very high, meaning that a good portion of the reign of Aegon III is likely going to be the reign of Viserys II, anyway. As seems to be most of the reigns of Daeron I and Baelor, too.

And the one advantage Aegon III has over his little brother is his physical and regal presence. Viserys is not that impressive physically, but Aegon III is tall and very beautiful, the proper image of a king. Whenever he bothered to do something he was making an impression. This can become important further down the road.

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Unwin Peake might be modelled after Lord Crichton or maybe Sir Livingston (the perpetrators of the 'Black Dinner' that the Red Wedding was inspired by) who sought to control James II of Scotland as a minor. Nigel Tranter's Black Douglas is an interesting read on the battle and intrigue to control the minor King. The ending is very GRRM-esque. It does not cover the Black Dinner itself though, taking place soon after.

So while Unwin probably is an utter fool (going back to the OP's question), this and other Tranter novels paint a picture of many real world nobles made from the same mould. Under a different set of circumstances (I.e. Viserys not being found, Corlys being successfully sidelined and perhaps without his twin half-sisters) Aemon could have well continued to be strongly influenced and controlled by a cabal of Nobles, and Peake might well have won that game of thrones, like Crichton in a way actually did (inspite of the Douglas' huge lands and army).

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Posted (edited)
On 5/28/2019 at 2:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

You have to keep in mind that 'coming of age' doesn't necessarily mean that a person actually rules in his/her own right. Cersei indicates that she may be forced to continue running Tommen's government even after he comes of age, and Lord Cregan Stark wasn't allowed to rule in his own right after he came of age - he had to rise up and imprison his uncle and cousins to actually become the Lord of Winterfell in his own right.

 

It actually does though, yes there are exceptions, Tommen's own character or Cregan's ambitious uncle but there are context for that situations, Cersei obviously wouldn't rule under Joffrey's reign and the only reason she thinks she could get away with it with it with Tommen is  because she thinks Tommen would be  seven his entire life.

Cregan was in a far more dire situation, the only thing that came between Winterfell  and his uncle (with several heirs on his own while Cregan was without issue) was Cregan himself, so either Cregan rose up or he'd end up dead, Unwin Peake can't do that, his power came directly from the Crown and by that point, Viserys had already proved he wasn't like his brother, so actually killing Aegon and trying to marry Viserys with her daughter wouldn't work, Viserys would refuse even being a minor and there isn't actually nothing more Unwin Peake could do other than threaten veleidly or kill quietly, try other things would be open treason.

 

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 It seems clear that Peake intended to run Aegon III's government long after the king came of age. He even did everything to encourage him to not attend his own council session. The plan to marry his daughter to Aegon III has to be seen in that context - Peake planned to stabilize his position as 'true king' by becoming the puppet king's father-in-law. Should the boy become too difficult but had already fathered children on Myrielle after he had come of age, he could always die - that Peake is capable of trying to murder his king and queen we see in FaB.

Agreed, that's the only thing that could actually keep him in Court after all the Targs were gone, another Targ with his blood, but without that, Unwin's is made of sand. There is nothing much he could've done than killing his King and try with another but, neither Viserys nor Baela were tamable, nor Rhaena appeared to trust him and with a dragon on her own, there is nothing much she could've be obliged to, nor Jeyne Arryn (until she died) or any other powerful Black would give to her.

 

 

On 5/28/2019 at 8:14 PM, James Steller said:

You actually show your own naiveté if you believe Aegon III could have taken power in his own hands automatically simply because he turned sixteen. He only could do that because the formal and informal power his regents and other courtiers had acquired during the Regency was broken due to their own infighting. If Peake's toadies still had had all their offices, if he himself had still had been Hand, regent, and Protector of the Realm, protected by his own guard, with his men dominating the Kingsguard, Aegon III would have continued to be his puppet ... and his hostage.

 

Do you think so?? One thing is killing or threatening a King quietly or bullying an underage, another very different is doing it openly to an adult King, that's open treason, and that, no matter how many people Peake had in high offices, would cost them their lifes as soon as word reach out, Peake had allies, but none of those allies would support him then and the man had many enemies, what would happen when Kermit Tully call his banners to pull a Hour of the Wolf?? Unwin had all the Soft Power in KL but given the Cregan precedence, it's unlikely they'd try to openly act agaisnt his adult King.

If Aegon dismissed Peake, he wouldn't have a choice but to leave, I have no doubt that he'd tryto poison Aegon or something like that, but he'd leave nonetheless.

 

 

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Would they? If Aegon III continued to behave the way he did during Peake's reign in KL, doing whatever Lord Unwin commanded him to do, and then being escorted back to his chambers? Peake was perhaps not the most popular lord, but I daresay he was much more popular than the broken boy wearing the crown - who was not popular at all. He was a powerful lord in his own right, a veteran general of First and Second Tumbleton, the wielder of a Valyrian steel sword.

And Peake really controlled the entire court while he was regent, Hand, and Protector of the Realm. If that had continued nobody could have ousted him.

 

Yes, I can't see a reason why any Black Lord would actually let Aegon on his own if the boy claimed for help or if they thought he was in peril, nor do I see any compelling reason why even the Green Lords would betray their King for Unwin Peake, the man was no Daemon Blackfyre.

The titles regent and Protector of the Realm dissapear as soon Aegon comes of age, northe other regents liked him while he was Hand, I can't see Rowan or Munkun betraying Aegon and not calling for help and it's unlikely to not say impossible Unwin and his cronies would live long once that help came.

 


 

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It is not about growing up, but about exerting power. If you control the court and the king's person, then you rule the king, regardless how old he is. And the way to ensure that this never changes would be to never permit the king any kind of freedom. No contact to outsiders, to people you don't trust, no active role in the government of the Realm, no progresses, public audiences, no royal favors granted by the king himself, no permission to write letters not drafted by Peake, etc.


 

 

But what happen when you can't control the King's person?? It's not like Aegon would tolerate this and it's not like the likes of Rowan won't look for help or the other cronies don't know that anything happens to the King, their heads would fall, under those circumstances and with the knowledge that the moment Aegon dies, it's over because either Alyn Velaryon or Corbray would ascend to cleanse the court, or filling it with their cronies, it's a very suicidal move.

Had Aegon acted like that before Peake and I very much see his power waving.

 

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“Lord Manderly,” King Aegon said, in the sudden stillness, “pray tell me how old I am, if you would be so good.” “You are ten-and-six today, Your Grace,” Lord Manderly replied. “A man grown. It is time for you to take the governance of the Seven Kingdoms into your own hands.” “I shall,” King Aegon said. “You are sitting in my chair.” The coldness in his tone took every man in the room aback, Grand Maester Munkun would write years later. Confused and shaken, Torrhen Manderly prised his considerable bulk out of the chair at the head of the council table.

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The king’s face grew hard. “Ser Marston,” he said, “this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king…else I will know that you are as false as he is.” His words rang across the inner ward, and in that moment, the broken boy Aegon III seemed every inch a king.

Power is also appearance, and one have the legitimacy, the law and the appearance behind it's very difficult to be broken.

Edited by frenin

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@frenin

We have to differentiate between nominal power and actual power. The Seven Kingdoms are a monarchy, and the king is the nominal head of state who runs the government - but as a look in (medieval) history shows nominal power and actual power are not necessarily the same things. There were and can be clandestine coups were government officials rather than crowned heads actual run the government - not to mention that in medieval monarchies like Westeros - in which royal power is, in the end, personal rather than institutional - the amount of actual power a king wields greatly depends on his personality and charisma.

If a king were groomed to be nothing but an impotent figurehead - which Lord Unwin Peake and his cronies actually tried to do - then said king certainly could be nothing but an impotent figurehead who is dominated and controlled by his own officials during his entire reign - just as a king who doesn't give a damn about his own government could hand more and more actual power to his chief government officials (like the Hand, say).

There is no guarantee that a king can come into his own in Westeros - or in the real world.

And King Aegon III was actually ideally suited to be nothing but a puppet - he had no charisma, refused to socialize with people, refused to win the love of his people, and refused to speak with more than a handful of people. Even after he started to take his government into his own hands, he wouldn't have been a particularly powerful king considering that he (most likely) never spent much time with any of subjects aside from those who somehow could get an audience (assuming he even attended most of his own court sessions, which isn't very likely, either).

We have to wait and see how powerful Aegon III was in his own government, but I assume that a lot of the actual power (i.e. actual government work) lay in the hands of Prince Viserys (from the start, even before he was Hand), Alyn Velaryon (once he returned to court) and Queen Daenaera (once she was old enough to serve as a stand-in for her royal husband).

In that sense, we can be rather sure that a cabal of powerful men controlling the court (like Peake and his buddies before he resigned) certainly could have controlled a king who was suffering as much from depression and post-traumatic stress as Aegon III.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

It actually does though, yes there are exceptions, Tommen's own character or Cregan's ambitious uncle but there are context for that situations, Cersei obviously wouldn't rule under Joffrey's reign and the only reason she thinks she could get away with it with it with Tommen is  because she thinks Tommen would be  seven his entire life.

Tommen is certainly a weaker character than Joffrey, but Joffrey, too, had no voice in his own government (aside from when his mother actually was stupid enough to include him). Character-wise Joff could easily be groomed into some kind of party king who could have a voice in the 5% of issues he was interested in and leave the other 95% of government stuff (the really important things) to his council and Hand. That was, in essence, the kind of king Robert was. He had basically no voice in his own goverment aside from the few issues (Targaryen matters, money for feasts, tourneys, etc.).

But in a regency setting during a monarch's minority you have to keep in mind that those children - especially if they are very young when they take the throne - are essentially groomed to obey, respect, and listen to the people who run their government - and if people play their cards right they can establish such great bonds of devotion or dependence in such a manner that the regent continues to rule even after the king could rule himself.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Cregan was in a far more dire situation, the only thing that came between Winterfell  and his uncle (with several heirs on his own while Cregan was without issue) was Cregan himself, so either Cregan rose up or he'd end up dead, Unwin Peake can't do that, his power came directly from the Crown and by that point, Viserys had already proved he wasn't like his brother, so actually killing Aegon and trying to marry Viserys with her daughter wouldn't work, Viserys would refuse even being a minor and there isn't actually nothing more Unwin Peake could do other than threaten veleidly or kill quietly, try other things would be open treason.

We don't know whether Cregan's uncle wanted to kill him or actually rule as Lord of Winterfell - it could just be he thought the boy wasn't ready yet or not really capable of dealing with things or that he was not willing to lose the privileges that came with running things in his nephew's name. The fact that Cregan wasn't kill sort of confirms that his uncle and cousins didn't want to kill him, I assume.

Peake's attempt to hold on to power took place before Prince Viserys returned to Westeros. The attempt to murder king and queen later is an attempt to check their descent - and that does not necessarily imply Viserys marrying Myrielle Peake (but rather Cassandra Baratheon, who was involved in the plot because she wanted to be queen herself). Instead, I think Peake arranged the attempts on Aegon III and Daenaera and destroyed the Rogares to regain his position at court (Hand, regent, and Protector of the Realm). Viserys was two years younger than Aegon III and temperament-wise a king Peake may have thought he could work with better.

How realistic this was is another matter entirely.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Agreed, that's the only thing that could actually keep him in Court after all the Targs were gone, another Targ with his blood, but without that, Unwin's is made of sand. There is nothing much he could've done than killing his King and try with another but, neither Viserys nor Baela were tamable, nor Rhaena appeared to trust him and with a dragon on her own, there is nothing much she could've be obliged to, nor Jeyne Arryn (until she died) or any other powerful Black would give to her.

There is also a pretty good chance that he could have made Aegon III into a prisoner at his own court. The Kingsguard belonged to him and the court was dominated by him. If the king is technically your hostage then the king's friends cannot really move against you, and there wouldn't really be a reason to do that if the king is more or less happy because he is (seemingly, at least) left to his own device and plays his role during formal occasions.

The king's half-sisters wouldn't have been a problem if Alyn Velaryon had died in the Sunset Sea (which wouldn't have been unlikely if it had actually come to a battle against the Red Kraken). Baela would have been a dragonless widow - Peake could have found a husband of his own choosing for her, or he could have disgraced and destroyed her if she had again taken an unsuitable second husband. Rhaena was not the rebellious type - and she, too, would have been at Peake's mercy after the death of Ser Corwyn Corbray.

It should have been very easy to permanently rid the court from these two.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Do you think so?? One thing is killing or threatening a King quietly or bullying an underage, another very different is doing it openly to an adult King, that's open treason, and that, no matter how many people Peake had in high offices, would cost them their lifes as soon as word reach out, Peake had allies, but none of those allies would support him then and the man had many enemies, what would happen when Kermit Tully call his banners to pull a Hour of the Wolf?? Unwin had all the Soft Power in KL but given the Cregan precedence, it's unlikely they'd try to openly act agaisnt his adult King.

If Aegon dismissed Peake, he wouldn't have a choice but to leave, I have no doubt that he'd tryto poison Aegon or something like that, but he'd leave nonetheless.

The art of ruling is to ensure that the king cannot dismiss you. And the way to do that is to ensure that the king is entirely at your mercy. That shouldn't have been all that difficult if you dominate the court the way Peake did when he was the most powerful.

Aegon III never had any friends during his minority, and possibly not all that many after he came of age. There is little reason to believe that the former Blacks would have rebelled for his sake - whenever Peake faced opposition from the other regents it had more to do with his own power-grabbing than that anybody cared about the well-being of the king.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

The titles regent and Protector of the Realm dissapear as soon Aegon comes of age, northe other regents liked him while he was Hand, I can't see Rowan or Munkun betraying Aegon and not calling for help and it's unlikely to not say impossible Unwin and his cronies would live long once that help came.

Munkun worked with Peake - Rowan obviously had no chance against the Peake gang, did he?

Titles don't matter - actual power does. If Peake continued as Hand (and perhaps as Protector, too) after Aegon III came of age then he would continue to rule as de facto king because everybody would the real power lay with him and not with the broken king.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

But what happen when you can't control the King's person?? It's not like Aegon would tolerate this and it's not like the likes of Rowan won't look for help or the other cronies don't know that anything happens to the King, their heads would fall, under those circumstances and with the knowledge that the moment Aegon dies, it's over because either Alyn Velaryon or Corbray would ascend to cleanse the court, or filling it with their cronies, it's a very suicidal move.

If you no longer control the king's person you are in trouble in such a scenario, of course. But that doesn't mean you cannot try to cling to power for as long as you can.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Had Aegon acted like that before Peake and I very much see his power waving.

Power is also appearance, and one have the legitimacy, the law and the appearance behind it's very difficult to be broken.

But when Aegon III acts he actually has a loyal Kingsguard and a deadly and absolutely devoted foreign sworn sword in Sandoq the Shadow - and he acts against a Hand who doesn't want to dominate him (nor cling to power at any cost) and against three regents chosen by lot who are described as completely ineffectual. This is not exactly a risky or even difficult task.

He couldn't have gotten rid of an Unwin Peake who was still Hand of the King, Lord Regent, and Protector of the Realm, in control of both court and Kingsguard. In such a scenario Aegon III wouldn't have been allowed to leave his apartments without Peake's leave - much less able to burst into a council session with a retinue of his own.

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Posted (edited)

@Lord Varys

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In that sense, we can be rather sure that a cabal of powerful men controlling the court (like Peake and his buddies before he resigned) certainly could have controlled a king who was suffering as much from depression and post-traumatic stress as Aegon III.

If the King played nice?? Absolutely, if the King refused?? I'm not sure at all.

 

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Tommen is certainly a weaker character than Joffrey, but Joffrey, too, had no voice in his own government (aside from when his mother actually was stupid enough to include him). Character-wise Joff could easily be groomed into some kind of party king who could have a voice in the 5% of issues he was interested in and leave the other 95% of government stuff (the really important things) to his council and Hand. That was, in essence, the kind of king Robert was. He had basically no voice in his own goverment aside from the few issues (Targaryen matters, money for feasts, tourneys, etc.).

But in a regency setting during a monarch's minority you have to keep in mind that those children - especially if they are very young when they take the throne - are essentially groomed to obey, respect, and listen to the people who run their government - and if people play their cards right they can establish such great bonds of devotion or dependence in such a manner that the regent continues to rule even after the king could rule himself.

I don't think you can groomed someone to that, either you are or you aren't, and Joffrey certainly wasn't, he wanted to be involved, he wanted to be King, even with Robert, to the courtiers, the squires, the KG and whether Janos Slynt should be sent to the Wall or not were decisions that couldn't be taken without him, he could clearly be influenced, either sweetalking or Cersei nagging to him, but there were his decisions nonetheless and they are pretty big decisions.

 

Yes, I don't doubt that that was Peakes second plan, the first was having a Targ child so he could not depend of Aegon, that's why his behaviour is all the more confusing,  I can see Tyland Lannister being Hand and de facto being King even after Aegon became an adult, he apparently had the complete trust of the boy, I can't see Peake during much.

 

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We don't know whether Cregan's uncle wanted to kill him or actually rule as Lord of Winterfell - it could just be he thought the boy wasn't ready yet or not really capable of dealing with things or that he was not willing to lose the privileges that came with running things in his nephew's name. The fact that Cregan wasn't kill sort of confirms that his uncle and cousins didn't want to kill him, I assume.

 

It's not a crazy guessI mean and I can see Cregan acting with that thought in the head.

 

 

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 Peake's attempt to hold on to power took place before Prince Viserys returned to Westeros. The attempt to murder king and queen later is an attempt to check their descent - and that does not necessarily imply Viserys marrying Myrielle Peake (but rather Cassandra Baratheon, who was involved in the plot because she wanted to be queen herself). Instead, I think Peake arranged the attempts on Aegon III and Daenaera and destroyed the Rogares to regain his position at court (Hand, regent, and Protector of the Realm). Viserys was two years younger than Aegon III and temperament-wise a king Peake may have thought he could work with better.

True my bad, I think that with the perspective of having a King that clearly disliked him, it's better a fresh start, and  trying it again with Viserys, killing his own heirs btw. Cassandra Baratheon  seems a pawn and he could not have any certainty that she'd be loyal once Queen.

 

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There is also a pretty good chance that he could have made Aegon III into a prisoner at his own court. The Kingsguard belonged to him and the court was dominated by him. If the king is technically your hostage then the king's friends cannot really move against you, and there wouldn't really be a reason to do that if the king is more or less happy because he is (seemingly, at least) left to his own device and plays his role during formal occasions.

Yet the man never held the kind of power that you give him, by the time of Viserys return and still in the peak of his power, there was many people within in the court that hoped that the regents removed him, we see the regents overruling him quite often, the reason why that didn't happen before wasn't because of Peake having men everywhere but because the regents were remarkably malleable, we see him having nothing to say in both Daenara and Viserus affairs and that by that point,  the situation was already out of his control, none of his cronies did something.

If the King or someone feels the King is hostage in his own castle, the word reach out and when someone with a big army cames to take a look, either you surrender your hostage, you are dead,  or you actually treat the King as your hostage,which means that the Realm and King's Landing itself will want your head.

 

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The king's half-sisters wouldn't have been a problem if Alyn Velaryon had died in the Sunset Sea (which wouldn't have been unlikely if it had actually come to a battle against the Red Kraken). Baela would have been a dragonless widow - Peake could have found a husband of his own choosing for her, or he could have disgraced and destroyed her if she had again taken an unsuitable second husband. Rhaena was not the rebellious type - and she, too, would have been at Peake's mercy after the death of Ser Corwyn Corbray.

The moment Baela had a child, she was out of Peake's reach, she would have been the regent of her child in Driftmark and there was absolutely nothing Peake could do about that, how could he disgraced her or destroyed her for choosing her own husband??  Baela was a Princess  and  Aegon's heir, Who would've honestly cared what Peake says??

Peake couldn't have pulled out a Tywin even if he wanted to, Baela is by default the regent of the infant Lady of Driftmark, ie a de facto  Great Lady and under those circumstances he'd have the same chances  getting Jeyne Arryn to remarry.

Rhaena wasn't the rebellious type but she doesn't seem to like Peake and there is nothing Peake can do to actually force her to marry after Corbrays death, if Corbray ever died.

 

 

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The art of ruling is to ensure that the king cannot dismiss you. And the way to do that is to ensure that the king is entirely at your mercy. That shouldn't have been all that difficult if you dominate the court the way Peake did when he was the most powerful.

When he couldn't even got to annul the bethrothal between Daenara and Aegon and the Regents refused or when he, rightfully in my opinion, tried to chastise Alyn Velaryon for negotiating on behalf of the crown and he actually had to try a last act of resigning to try and bend the will of the regents when he was the most powerful, it's very difficult he can just refuse the direct orders of an adult King, even if that King is Aegon III.

Peake raise to power was always due to the indiference or ineptitude of those who actually could stop him, the Great Lords only acting when his power grab was clear as water with the Myrielleaffair and the regents only acting when they couldn't stand hiimno more. The moment the regents started to act united, the all mighty Peake became increasignly powerless.

 

 

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 Aegon III never had any friends during his minority, and possibly not all that many after he came of age. There is little reason to believe that the former Blacks would have rebelled for his sake - whenever Peake faced opposition from the other regents it had more to do with his own power-grabbing than that anybody cared about the well-being of the king.

 If there aren't alarming news  especially in a winter as harsh as that, there is no reason to act on behalf on your King, when Aegon summoned them, the entire Realm answered to his call and there is no reason to doubt that Cregan Stark, Kermit Tully, Jeyne Arryn or Ben Blackwood were fierciest loyalist and there is little reason to think that the Reach greens would rather their King over the Hand.

In that Winter all of those Blacks had to look for their Kingdoms, especially Cregan, why would they move when apparently there is no reason to??

 

 

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Munkun worked with Peake - Rowan obviously had no chance against the Peake gang, did he?

 

 

 

To get rid of the Rogarres, Munkun himself says that he came to regret having supported him to become Hand, the Peake gang had actually a regent that time, Munkun and  who wouldn't have supported him in other time but King's Landing hated the Rogarres and he actually had more support because of that.

There won't be no foreign family who redirect to anger and blame this time.

 

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 Titles don't matter - actual power does. If Peake continued as Hand (and perhaps as Protector, too) after Aegon III came of age then he would continue to rule as de facto king because everybody would the real power lay with him and not with the broken king.

 

And the moment Aegon comes of age, he becomes Protector of the Realm and has the ability to name Hands, the moment Aegon comes of age he becomes the actual power and Peake only titles with influence.

The real power never laid with him, he only had power when he had the regents or/and the King on his pocket, when that stopped, his power finished.

 

If you no longer control the king's person you are in trouble in such a scenario, of course. But that doesn't mean you cannot try to cling to power for as long as you can.

 

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If you no longer control the king's person you are in trouble in such a scenario, of course. But that doesn't mean you cannot try to cling to power for as long as you can.

Agree, but the as long as you can scenario wouldn't be long and the consequences would be very foreseaable.

 

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But when Aegon III acts he actually has a loyal Kingsguard and a deadly and absolutely devoted foreign sworn sword in Sandoq the Shadow - and he acts against a Hand who doesn't want to dominate him (nor cling to power at any cost) and against three regents chosen by lot who are described as completely ineffectual. This is not exactly a risky or even difficult task.

When he orders Waters to release Rowan and so on, he still was kept prisoner on Maegor holdfast and everybody was quick to oblige, because the boy sounded and acted as a King.

 

 

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 He couldn't have gotten rid of an Unwin Peake who was still Hand of the King, Lord Regent, and Protector of the Realm, in control of both court and Kingsguard. In such a scenario Aegon III wouldn't have been allowed to leave his apartments without Peake's leave - much less able to burst into a council session with a retinue of his own.

 

I don't know how, the moment Aegon comes of age Peake is no longer Regent and Protector of the Realm and if Peake or his cronies act against his King isopen treason, why would anyone face a sure a death as soon of the word reached out.

If Peake being, Hand of the King, Lord Regent, Protector of the Realm and with both the KG and the Court under his thumb was unable to challenge the regents when they were all resolved to act against him, he can't touch the boy. 

 

Edited by frenin

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

@Lord Varys

If the King played nice?? Absolutely, if the King refused?? I'm not sure at all.

The art of this kind of thing would be to give the king no choice in the matter. And that's doable.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't think you can groomed someone to that, either you are or you aren't, and Joffrey certainly wasn't, he wanted to be involved, he wanted to be King, even with Robert, to the courtiers, the squires, the KG and whether Janos Slynt should be sent to the Wall or not were decisions that couldn't be taken without him, he could clearly be influenced, either sweetalking or Cersei nagging to him, but there were his decisions nonetheless and they are pretty big decisions.

Joffrey never attended any of his own council sessions (unlike Jaehaerys I or even Aegon III during their minorities), he had as much interest in the actual business of ruling as his legal father. Tyrion shows us how easily Joffrey can be distracted with a crossbow.

Now, Joff definitely would like to be treated and reap all the pleasant things that come with being king - and he certainly would have to be given way in all that. But chances that Joff would give his 'loyal servants' actually making decisions and running a hard time by supervising and micromanaging them are about zero.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yes, I don't doubt that that was Peakes second plan, the first was having a Targ child so he could not depend of Aegon, that's why his behaviour is all the more confusing,  I can see Tyland Lannister being Hand and de facto being King even after Aegon became an adult, he apparently had the complete trust of the boy, I can't see Peake during much.

Lannister strikes me as the kind of guy who had no intention to continue after his king had come of age. He actually did his best to prepare the boy for the day when the rule of the Realm would be laid into his hands.

Aegon III must have known why Ser Tyland was tortured - if he dismissed Lord Manderly who was actually a committed Black during the war, it is very unlikely he would have allowed Ser Tyland to continue as Hand.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's not a crazy guessI mean and I can see Cregan acting with that thought in the head.

We know nothing about the actual power dynamics there.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

True my bad, I think that with the perspective of having a King that clearly disliked him, it's better a fresh start, and  trying it again with Viserys, killing his own heirs btw. Cassandra Baratheon  seems a pawn and he could not have any certainty that she'd be loyal once Queen.

But it seems the Peake made concessions to her in the Daenaera-Aegon III-Rogare plot. They apparently needed to recruit people to their cause so they promised her that she would be the next queen. Whether they would have gone through with that later on I don't know.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Yet the man never held the kind of power that you give him, by the time of Viserys return and still in the peak of his power, there was many people within in the court that hoped that the regents removed him, we see the regents overruling him quite often, the reason why that didn't happen before wasn't because of Peake having men everywhere but because the regents were remarkably malleable, we see him having nothing to say in both Daenara and Viserus affairs and that by that point,  the situation was already out of his control, none of his cronies did something.

Peake is essentially the only regent in the capital. Others offer their opinion on the rather blatant power grab with the Myrielle match, but Peake is definitely running the show. He has no rivals and essentially only loses his formal power because he actually offers to resign. And even then he has enough power left to try to murder the king and queen, destroy his successor as Hand and torture him into an early death, and get his cronies to besiege the king in his own castle.

The man had a lot of power.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

If the King or someone feels the King is hostage in his own castle, the word reach out and when someone with a big army cames to take a look, either you surrender your hostage, you are dead,  or you actually treat the King as your hostage,which means that the Realm and King's Landing itself will want your head.

We see how nothing of that happened when the king was actually besieged in his own castle. The way to keep things quiet would be to make it clear to your puppet king that he and all the people he loves will be killed if he tries to make trouble. And Aegon III could be managed by such blackmail, as the whole episode about Gaemon Palehair shows.

What do you think would have happened if Peake had told Aegon III that his brother or his half-sisters would die if he did not follow his commands to the letter?

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The moment Baela had a child, she was out of Peake's reach, she would have been the regent of her child in Driftmark and there was absolutely nothing Peake could do about that, how could he disgraced her or destroyed her for choosing her own husband??  Baela was a Princess  and  Aegon's heir, Who would've honestly cared what Peake says??

Alyn Velaryon was a legitimized bastard. Peake could have revoked Rhaenyra's decree and overruled the early ruling of the regents acknowledging Alyn as the Sea Snake's heir - and then Driftmark would have gone to one of Alyn's cousins rather than Alyn's daughter. Perhaps they wouldn't have needed to do that - it could have been enough to claim that a female infant should not succeed to as important a seat as Driftmark.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Peake couldn't have pulled out a Tywin even if he wanted to, Baela is by default the regent of the infant Lady of Driftmark, ie a de facto  Great Lady and under those circumstances he'd have the same chances  getting Jeyne Arryn to remarry.

Baela would not necessarily be the default regent for her daughter, even if she were allowed to become the Lady of Driftmark. And none of that means she must be allowed to play a role at court.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Rhaena wasn't the rebellious type but she doesn't seem to like Peake and there is nothing Peake can do to actually force her to marry after Corbrays death, if Corbray ever died.

Sure, he could have married her to a man of his choosing - just as the regents decided that she and her sister would marry in the first place. That was not a decision left to either the king or the girls themselves.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

When he couldn't even got to annul the bethrothal between Daenara and Aegon and the Regents refused or when he, rightfully in my opinion, tried to chastise Alyn Velaryon for negotiating on behalf of the crown and he actually had to try a last act of resigning to try and bend the will of the regents when he was the most powerful, it's very difficult he can just refuse the direct orders of an adult King, even if that King is Aegon III.

Sure, he met resistance there, but those were very important decisions and he was behaving rather clumsily in all that. There is a reason why he failed, but had he been more competent he could have easily made Aegon III his little puppet.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

If there aren't alarming news  especially in a winter as harsh as that, there is no reason to act on behalf on your King, when Aegon summoned them, the entire Realm answered to his call and there is no reason to doubt that Cregan Stark, Kermit Tully, Jeyne Arryn or Ben Blackwood were fierciest loyalist and there is little reason to think that the Reach greens would rather their King over the Hand.

In that Winter all of those Blacks had to look for their Kingdoms, especially Cregan, why would they move when apparently there is no reason to??

For that they would have to believe the king was in danger - they allowed Peake to dominate the court, so if he had continue to do so and successfully prevented word getting out that the king was unhappy with all that then ... nothing would have happened to stop him.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

 

To get rid of the Rogarres, Munkun himself says that he came to regret having supported him to become Hand, the Peake gang had actually a regent that time, Munkun and  who wouldn't have supported him in other time but King's Landing hated the Rogarres and he actually had more support because of that.

There won't be no foreign family who redirect to anger and blame this time.

Gyldayn claims Munkun regretted this later - we don't know if that's actually true or why exactly Munkun supposedly regretted any of that. He did not only work closely with Peake but he was also there and involved with the gang who conducted the Secret Siege.

And it is also quite clear Munkun did not actually like Aegon III all that much, either.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And the moment Aegon comes of age, he becomes Protector of the Realm and has the ability to name Hands, the moment Aegon comes of age he becomes the actual power and Peake only titles with influence.

The real power never laid with him, he only had power when he had the regents or/and the King on his pocket, when that stopped, his power finished.

And that's all irrelevant if you hold the life of the king in your hand.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

When he orders Waters to release Rowan and so on, he still was kept prisoner on Maegor holdfast and everybody was quick to oblige, because the boy sounded and acted as a King.

But that was long after Peake had lost his high office at court, at a time when his own goons were getting second thoughts about the plan (or were never completely on board with it, anyway). Aegon III says some stuff, but if Waters had refused to obey him his word would have accomplished nothing.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I don't know how, the moment Aegon comes of age Peake is no longer Regent and Protector of the Realm and if Peake or his cronies act against his King isopen treason, why would anyone face a sure a death as soon of the word reached out.

If Peake being, Hand of the King, Lord Regent, Protector of the Realm and with both the KG and the Court under his thumb was unable to challenge the regents when they were all resolved to act against him, he can't touch the boy.

Who is going to persecute such treason? Only the king could, and if the king is in your power nobody is going to do anything against you, especially if nobody even realizes that you have committed treason but instead everybody believes you continue to run the government at the king's explicit wishes.

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@Lord Varys

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The art of this kind of thing would be to give the king no choice in the matter. And that's doable.

And that's exactly why I think pretty much impossible for him and his cronies.

 

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Joffrey never attended any of his own council sessions (unlike Jaehaerys I or even Aegon III during their minorities), he had as much interest in the actual business of ruling as his legal father. Tyrion shows us how easily Joffrey can be distracted with a crossbow.

Now, Joff definitely would like to be treated and reap all the pleasant things that come with being king - and he certainly would have to be given way in all that. But chances that Joff would give his 'loyal servants' actually making decisions and running a hard time by supervising and micromanaging them are about zero.

I don't remember the main books well but Joffrey did attend the council in which was discussed Robb's death and it was there when the kid gave his a strong King acts boldly  speech, which seems to be a warning about how bold he would've become in the following years.

 

 

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Lannister strikes me as the kind of guy who had no intention to continue after his king had come of age. He actually did his best to prepare the boy for the day when the rule of the Realm would be laid into his hands.

Aegon III must have known why Ser Tyland was tortured - if he dismissed Lord Manderly who was actually a committed Black during the war, it is very unlikely he would have allowed Ser Tyland to continue as Hand.

 

 

 

True enough but I do think that Aegon would've been confortable in giving him the Realm, he knew Manderly was her mother's man, but Lannister was his.

 

 

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We know nothing about the actual power dynamics there.

True enough.

 

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But it seems the Peake made concessions to her in the Daenaera-Aegon III-Rogare plot. They apparently needed to recruit people to their cause so they promised her that she would be the next queen. Whether they would have gone through with that later on I don't know.

Did he?? Cassandra seemed to act out of spite, she would've been Queen had her not been attacked, rathen than an actual certainty.

 

 

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Peake is essentially the only regent in the capital. Others offer their opinion on the rather blatant power grab with the Myrielle match, but Peake is definitely running the show. He has no rivals and essentially only loses his formal power because he actually offers to resign. And even then he has enough power left to try to murder the king and queen, destroy his successor as Hand and torture him into an early death, and get his cronies to besiege the king in his own castle.

The man had a lot of power.

But that's clearly not what happens, the moment all the regents became tired of Peakes bs and start act united, Peake loses, him resigning is a desperate last attempt to bend the will of the regents. 

Both Peake and Lannister had a lot of power because the regents were remarkably malleable after the first regents started to die or resign, Corlys, Jeyne Arryn, Manderly and  before that the non maleable regents  didn't do their jobs  either... it's pretty much underlined in the text, it's not because the man had men everywhere, but because the regents were complete fools and it took that Peake tried to make a power grab for them to awake, the moment Peake tried to ignore the regents and directly inform Aegon about the bethrothal, Rowan and Mooton, refused etc.

 

 

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Ser Tyland’s wits remained sharp, however. He might have been expected to have emerged from his torments a bitter man intent upon revenge, but this proved far from true. Instead the Hand claimed a curious failure of memory, insisting that he could not recall who had been black and who green, whilst demonstrating a dogged loyalty to the son of the very queen who had sent him to the torturers. Very quickly Ser Tyland achieved an unspoken dominance over Leowyn Corbray, of whom Mushroom says, “He was thick of neck and thick of wit, but never have I known a man to fart so loudly.” By law, both the Hand and the Lord Protector were subject to the authority of the council of regents, but as the days passed and the moon turned and turned again, the regents convened less and less often, whilst the tireless, blind, hooded Tyland Lannister gathered more and more power to himself. 

 

“You fool, you thrice-damned fool. If I dared, I would have your bloody head off.” The Hand had good cause to be so wroth. However loudly the mob might cheer for Oakenfist, their bold young hero’s rash attack had left the realm in an untenable position. Lord Velaryon might have captured a score of Braavosi ships and an elephant, but he had not taken Bloodstone, nor any of the other Stepstones; the knights and men-at-arms such a conquest would have required had been aboard the larger ships of the royal fleet that he abandoned off the shores of Tarth. The destruction of Racallio Ryndoon’s pirate kingdom had been Lord Peake’s objective; instead, Racallio appeared to have emerged stronger than ever. The last thing the Hand desired was war with Braavos, richest and most powerful of the Nine Free Cities. “Yet that is what you have given us, my lord,” Peake thundered. “You have given us a war.” “And an elephant,” Lord Alyn answered insolently. “Pray, do not forget the elephant, my lord.”

The remark drew nervous titters even from Lord Peake’s own handpicked men, Mushroom tells us, but the Hand was not amused. “He was not a man who liked to laugh himself,” the dwarf says, “and he liked being laughed at even less.” Though other men might fear to provoke Lord Unwin’s enmity, Alyn Oakenfist was secure in his own strength. Though barely a man grown, and bastard born as well, he was wed to the king’s half-sister, had all the power and wealth of House Velaryon at his command, and had just become the darling of the smallfolk. Lord Regent or no, Unwin Peake was not so mad as to imagine he could safely harm the hero of the Stepstones.

"Myrielle Peake was to be Aegon III’s new queen. She was the ideal choice, the Hand declared; the same age as the king, “a lovely girl, and courteous,” born of one of the noblest houses in the realm, schooled by septas to read, write, and do sums. Her lady mother had been fertile, so there was no reason to think that Myrielle would not give His Grace strong sons. “What if I do not like her?” King Aegon said. “You do not need to like her,” Lord Peake replied, “you need only wed her, bed her, and father a son on her.” Then, infamously, he added, “Your Grace does not like turnips, but when your cooks prepare them, you eat them, do you not?” King Aegon nodded sullenly…but the tale got out, as such tales always do, and the unfortunate Lady Myrielle was soon known as Lady Turnips throughout the Seven Kingdoms. She would never be Queen Turnips.

Unwin Peake had overreached himself. Thaddeus Rowan and Manfryd Mooton were outraged that he had not seen fit to consult them; matters of such import rightly belonged to the council of regents. Lady Arryn sent a waspish note from the Vale. Kermit Tully declared the betrothal “presumptuous.” Ben Blackwood questioned the haste of it; Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen. A curt missive arrived from Cregan Stark in Winterfell, suggesting that the North might look with disfavor on such a match. Even Grand Maester Munkun began to waver. “Lady Myrielle is a delightful girl, and I have no doubt that she would make a splendid queen,” he told the Hand, “but we must be concerned with appearances, my lord. We who have the honor of serving with your lordship know that you love His Grace as if he were your own son, and do all you do for him and for the realm, but others may imply that you chose your daughter for more ignoble reasons…for power, or the glory of House Peake.”

 

 

Caught in a snare of his own making, Lord Unwin Peake had no choice but to accept the king’s decision with as much grace as he could muster. In a council meeting the next day, however, he gave vent to his wroth.

By choosing for his bride a girl of six, “this sulky boy” had thwarted the entire purpose of the marriage. It would be years before the girl was old enough to bed, and even longer until she could hope to produce a trueborn heir. Until such time the succession would remain clouded. The foremost duty of a regency was to guard the king against the follies of youth, he declared, “follies such as this.” For the good of the realm, the king’s choice must be set aside, so that His Grace might marry “a suitable maid of child-bearing age.”

“Such as your daughter?” asked Lord Rowan. “I think not.” Nor were his fellow regents more sympathetic. For once, the council remained adamant, defying the Hand’s wishes. The marriage would proceed. The betrothal was announced the next day, as scores of disappointed maidens streamed out the city gates for home.

King Aegon III Targaryen wed Lady Daenaera on the last day of the 133rd year since Aegon’s Conquest. The crowds that lined the streets to cheer the royal couple were significantly smaller than those who had come out for Aegon and Jaehaera, for the Winter Fever had carried off almost a fifth of the population of King’s Landing, but those who did brave the day’s bitter winds and snowflurries were delighted with their new queen, charmed by her happy waves, flushed cheeks, and shy, sweet smiles. Ladies Baela and Rhaena, riding just behind the royal litter, were greeted with exuberant cheers as well. Only a few took note of the King’s Hand farther back, with “his face as grim as death.”

 

Sour and suspicious by nature, and possessed of overweening pride, Unwin Peake was a most unhappy man by 134 AC. The Maiden’s Day Ball had been a humiliation, and he took the king’s rejection of his daughter, Myrielle, in favor of Daenaera as a personal affront. Never fond of Lady Baela, he now had reason to mislike her sister Rhaena as well; both of them, he was convinced, were working against him, most like at the behest of Baela’s husband, the insolent and rebellious Oakenfist. The twins had deliberately and with malice aforethought wrecked his own plans to secure the succession, he told his own loyalists, and by seeing to it that the king took to wife a six-year-old they had ensured that the child Baela carried would be next in line to the Iron Throne.

 

The Hand had sent the rash young admiral around the whole of Westeros to rid the court of him, yet here he was about to descend on them once more, “dripping with undeserved acclaim” and mayhaps vast wealth as well. (Gold was ever a sore point for Unwin Peake, whose own house was land poor, rich in stone and soil and pride, yet chronically short of coin.) The smallfolk saw Oakenfist as a hero, his lordship knew, the man who had humbled the proud Sealord of Braavos and the Red Kraken of Pyke, whilst he himself was resented and reviled. Even within the Red Keep, there were many who hoped that the regents might remove Lord Peake as King’s Hand, and replace him with Alyn Velaryon.

 

The excitement occasioned by Oakenfist’s return was palpable, however, so all the Hand could do was seethe. When Lady Baela ’s sails were first seen across the waters of Blackwater Bay, with the rest of the Velaryon fleet appearing from the morning mists behind her, every bell in King’s Landing commenced to toll. Thousands crowded onto the city walls to cheer the hero, just as they had at Lannisport half a year before, whilst thousands more rushed out the River Gate to line the shores. But when the king expressed the wish to go to the docks “to thank my good-brother for his service,” the Hand forbade it, insisting it would not be fitting for His Grace to go to Lord Velaryon, that the admiral must come to the Red Keep to abase himself before the Iron Throne.

In this, as in the matter of Aegon’s betrothal to Myrielle Peake, Lord Unwin found himself overruled by the other regents. Over his strenuous objections, King Aegon and Queen Daenera descended from the castle in their litter, accompanied by Lady Baela and her newborn daughter; her sister Lady Rhaena with her lord husband, Corwyn Corbray; Grand Maester Munkun; Septon Bernard; the regents Manfryd Mooton and Thaddeus Rowan; the knights of the Kingsguard; and many other notables eager to meet Lady Baela at the docks.

 

[...]For all these reasons, king and court and city rejoiced at the prince’s coming, and Lord Alyn Velaryon became more beloved than ever for delivering Viserys from his captivity in Lys. Their joy was not shared by the King’s Hand, however. Whilst Lord Unwin declared himself delighted by the return of the king’s brother, he was furious at the price Oakenfist had agreed to pay for him. The young admiral had no authority to consent to such “ruinous terms,” Peake insisted; only the regents and the Hand were empowered to speak for the Iron Throne, not any “fool with a fleet.”

Law and tradition were on his side, Grand Maester Munkun admitted when the Hand brought his grievances to the council…but the king and the smallfolk felt otherwise, and it would have been the height of folly to repudiate Lord Alyn’s pact. The other regents concurred.

They voted new honors for Oakenfist, confirmed the legitimacy of Prince Viserys’s marriage to Lady Larra, agreed to pay her father the ransom in ten annual payments, and moved a vastly greater sum of gold from Braavos to Lys.

For Lord Unwin Peake, this seemed yet another humiliating rebuke. Coming so close on the heels of the Maiden’s Day Cattle Show and the king’s repudiation of his daughter, Myrielle, in favor of the child Daenaera, it was more than his pride could endure. Mayhaps his lordship thought he could bend his fellow regents to his will by threatening to resign as King’s Hand. Instead the council accepted his resignation with alacrity, and appointed the bluff, honest, and well-regarded Lord Thaddeus Rowan in his place.

Unwin Peake removed himself to his seat at Starpike to brood upon the wrongs he felt he had suffered, though his aunt the Lady Clarice, his uncle Gedmund Peake the Great-Axe, Gareth Long, Victor Risley, Lucas Leygood, George Graceford, Septon Bernard, and his many other appointments did not follow him, but continued to serve in their respective offices, as did his bastard brother Ser Mervyn Flowers and his nephew Ser Amaury Peake, for Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard serve for life. Lord Unwin even bequeathed Tessario and his Fingers to his successor; the king had his guards, he declared, and so must the Hand.

 

This is not the allmighty Hand you try to present, the man was very powerful in the Court but he had llimits and at the end the Regents showed him those limits and he and his cronies were unable of doing nothing to stop them, why the Regents didn't dismiss him before like Alyssa Velaryon did with Rogar Baratheon is beyond me, but given the fact that once Peake was out of the picture they didn't think that cleanse the Court was urgent and even the Fingers remained as the Hand's guards, I can't think about anything good of those regents but the regents  being utterly useless doesn't make Peake  allmighty, it made  him dangerous and  the regents incompetents but the power  were the regents, not the Hand. 

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We see how nothing of that happened when the king was actually besieged in his own castle. The way to keep things quiet would be to make it clear to your puppet king that he and all the people he loves will be killed if he tries to make trouble. And Aegon III could be managed by such blackmail, as the whole episode about Gaemon Palehair shows.

What do you think would have happened if Peake had told Aegon III that his brother or his half-sisters would die if he did not follow his commands to the letter?

Well, pretty much because just like the Green's coup, the entire court was locked pretty quickly and the one who actually could call for help (Munkun) was part of the plot, Tommen can be blackmailed to with those threats, we don't know if adult Tommen would react the same way. And given that Peake's power comes directly from the crown, i think that is pretty much a bluff, the Gaemon Palehair is also different, Gaemon is a nobody and could be treated as rubbish, not the same thing with a Prince and as Aegon later says during the siege, if they are dead, you don'thave any advantages.

 

Aegon would play nice until he could get the help he needs to get rid of Peake, nor he can touch the Twins who were far from his reach.

And we know the context surrounding the power grab,  King's Landing  hated the Rogarres, the Rogarres had just bankruped, and with them a lot of Westerosi Lords, courtesans and basically the Realm, The men that werein KL for Larra's protection were in the Vale fighting for Joffrey Arryn and a again a lot of courtesans were so mad with the Rogarres people actually thought they were traitors and Eowan with them, even that little girl  in Daenara's court who was in loved with Viserys acted driven by love rether than Peake having any sort of power over her, Peake benefited from bigotism, anger and confussion to make a very swift coup and to completely  isolate the King, perks I very much doubt he'd have facing an adult Aegon and a very mature Viserys and Larra's sworn swords.

 

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Alyn Velaryon was a legitimized bastard. Peake could have revoked Rhaenyra's decree and overruled the early ruling of the regents acknowledging Alyn as the Sea Snake's heir - and then Driftmark would have gone to one of Alyn's cousins rather than Alyn's daughter. Perhaps they wouldn't have needed to do that - it could have been enough to claim that a female infant should not succeed to as important a seat as Driftmark.

Peake can do a lot of things but deligitimizing an already legit bastard is not one of them, the books tell that not even Daeron II could overrule his father's last decree, how could Peake?? Nor he can act retroactively and disown Alyn, not only because the Lord as the King can choose his own succesor but because the regents had already settled the matter, Alyn's cousins had already pleged fealty and Driftmark was loyal to him, at best the only thing you have is a civil war, at worst the entire Realm  claims agaisnt that.

Nor can Peak go agaisnt Andal Law, there is no doubt that Alyn's daughter would succeed him.

You're literally giving Peake a power no Targ King ever had in history for him to have his way.

 

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Baela would not necessarily be the default regent for her daughter, even if she were allowed to become the Lady of Driftmark. And none of that means she must be allowed to play a role at court.

Sure she would, the regents usually are the closest relative of the sovereign, her playing a role in court  wasn't what we were discussing, we were discussing the level of influence over her Peake could have, had Aegon died childless, and the level of influence in the court is relative to the level of swords she brings with her and the level of highborns she can befriend or bring.

 

 

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Sure, he could have married her to a man of his choosing - just as the regents decided that she and her sister would marry in the first place. That was not a decision left to either the king or the girls themselves.

We know how well it went with that attempt with Baela and with Rhaena actually, the girl was the one who said she'd marry whoever the regents chose when the regents asked her who she wanted to marry.

 

 

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Sure, he met resistance there, but those were very important decisions and he was behaving rather clumsily in all that. There is a reason why he failed, but had he been more competent he could have easily made Aegon III his little puppet.

Met resistance is a understatement at the end even him saying that Alyn should meet the King and not the opposite was overruled by them, but the point is, if h couldn't bend the regents, there is no reason to think he could bend the King's, who pretty much hates him, the same things he could do to the King, he could've done to the regents, the same people who would help him make a coup, did absolutely nothing when he was dismissed. 

 

 

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For that they would have to believe the king was in danger - they allowed Peake to dominate the court, so if he had continue to do so and successfully prevented word getting out that the king was unhappy with all that then ... nothing would have happened to stop him.

And if he couldn't do that... If the King died etc. Nor Peake dominated the Court as the whole Alyn Velaryon affair showed, he was hated.

 

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Gyldayn claims Munkun regretted this later - we don't know if that's actually true or why exactly Munkun supposedly regretted any of that. He did not only work closely with Peake but he was also there and involved with the gang who conducted the Secret Siege.

And it is also quite clear Munkun did not actually like Aegon III all that much, either.

 

I don't have any reason to doubt it for now, but yes Munkun was a close ally to Peake, which allowed the latter to prevent any raven wennt to any Lord, but we don't know if he wanted to kill Aegon or as Eustace and many others in the court and in the city, just wanted to the Rogarres death.

It is?? Munkun seems to feel pity of the boy, more than outright dislike him and we also have this.

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The young king’s new interest in the world even extended to the rule of his kingdom. Aegon III began to attend the council. Though he seldom spoke, his presence heartened Grand Maester Munkun, and seemed to please Lord Mooton and Lord Rowan. Ser Marston Waters of the Kingsguard seemed discomfited by His Grace’s attendance, however, and Lord Peake took it for a rebuke. Whenever Aegon made so bold as to ask a question, Munkun tells us, the Hand would bristle and accuse him of wasting the council’s time, or inform him that such weighty matters were beyond the understanding of a child. Unsurprisingly, before very long His Grace began to absent himself from the meetings, as before.

 

During the hour of the wolf he can oft be found standing by a window, gazing up at the stars, but when I presented him with Archmaester Lyman’s Kingdoms of the Sky, he showed no interest. Aegon seldom smiles and never laughs, but neither does he display any outward signs of anger or fear, save in regards to dragons, the very mention of which sends him into a rare rage. Orwyle was wont to call His Grace calm and self-possessed; I say the boy is dead inside. He walks the halls of the Red Keep like a ghost. Brothers, I must be frank. I fear for our king, and for the kingdom.”

 

Doesn't strike me to someone who dislikes the boy.

 

 

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And that's all irrelevant if you hold the life of the king in your hand.

And the King also holds your life in his, that and the fact that gone the King, gone the Power. And if he doesn't hold the power,  he holds anything in his hands.

 

 

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But that was long after Peake had lost his high office at court, at a time when his own goons were getting second thoughts about the plan (or were never completely on board with it, anyway). Aegon III says some stuff, but if Waters had refused to obey him his word would have accomplished nothing.

It was when Peakes goons totally  flooded the court and his own fool was Hand, the fact that an underage Aegon only had to say some stuff in a kingly manner to break his goons speaks fir itself.

 

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Who is going to persecute such treason? Only the king could, and if the king is in your power nobody is going to do anything against you, especially if nobody even realizes that you have committed treason but instead everybody believes you continue to run the government at the king's explicit wishes.

 

The King's loyalist, which given the fact that there are no greens and blacks (on behalf of which king is followed) anymore seems to be everybody, given the fact thst you hold the King, others would definetly act on behalf on the King, just like Cregan did during the ealry moments of the Hour of the Wolf, if the King is in your power and you use him as a hostage, then you don't have any power, who is going to obey you and act like you are the Hand and Protector of the Realm if you are forced to remind people tje King is with you, you are no longer using him to rule, you are using him to try and stay alive,  If you are forced to act as Aegon IIin his final moments, you're going to end exaly like him, because no one would want to follow you to a certain death.

If you commit open treason, then you have to imprison or killed the remain loyalist (otherwise the word would spread), and exactly as the Lord Beesbury situation showed in the early days of the Dance, sooner or later someone would miss their relatives ans would start to ask uncomfortable questions and everthing will gp south.

Edited by frenin

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