The whole "Tower of Joy" story is flawed

[Ygrain]

On 7/3/2019 at 9:16 AM, Vashon said:

Given that its literally a fever dream, should have been obvious 20 odd years ago. What probably happened is that some Dornishmen ambushed him and his party while his was in the Dornish Stormland borderlands, thats where everybody but him, Howland Reed, and I'd swear a 3rd guy ended up surrendering and then they were taken to the Kingsguard.

"They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life."

 

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/2/2019 at 6:21 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Even if there is no indication in the books that she did, it could have been Ashara Dayne that told Ned about the Tower of Joy. But this leaves a question unanswered, the other alternative (Lyanna told/wrote her brother) would not. 

Why did´nt Lyanna tried to escape?

You assume that she didn't try, but we don't actually know whether she did or not.

Quote

And there is another fact that speakes against this assumption. The Tower of Joy was not only the hideout of Lyanna, but also of Ashara´s brother, Ser Arthur Dayne. Why should Ashara reveal his whereabouts to the enemy?

The war was basically over, so thinking in terms of enemies might have been outdated. It seems that Ned & the Daynes collaborated afterward to settle on Wylla the wetnurse as Jon's designated birth mother, and we also have Barristan recalling specifically that Ashara "looked to Stark".

Quote

I think the most simple answer to all this questions around the tower of joy is also the most likely: Lyanna told/wrote her brother where she was and in which circumstances and waited till he arrived.

When did that happen? Because I'd expect Ned to go to her immediately once he heard, whereas we know that after the sack of King's Landing when Rhaegar's children were presented to Ned, he first went to relieve the siege of Storm's End before continuing to Dorne and the Tower of Joy.

On 7/3/2019 at 2:16 AM, Vashon said:

They have a peaceful chat, Arthur surrenders his sword, Ned travels to Starfall, then gets on a boat, gets to King's Landing, chit chats with Robert, gets on a boat, gets to Winterfell before Catelyn, finds Lyanna, she dies, he puts her remains in a crypt. 

He found Lyanna in Winterfell? She was there the whole time? And he'd already told Robert that Lyanna was dead, but he somehow arrives after that to speak with her right before she dies to confirm his story?

[Wolfbynature]

On 7/5/2019 at 2:28 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's also possible that aliens came down from above & told Ned where Lyanna was

Oh come on. No more substantial arguments left against the "Lyanna send a message to her brother" theory?

I mean something more substantial than claiming that I am wrong. Of course there is no direct proof in the books for a letter/message from Lyanna to Eddard. But the advantage of this theory is, that it only needs a single explanation to join the pieces of a complicated puzzle together.

No other theory could do that - apart from aliens.

But I have to admit, that this exact puzzle maybe only exists in my mind.

Therefore I have a lot of ideas for new threads to define the puzzle pieces.

[Wolfbynature]

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You assume that she didn't try, but we don't actually know whether she did or not.

I was´nt precise enough. I mean not only Lyanna but the whole party. Just like Deanarys and Viserys were brought to safety by Ser Willem Darry.

Why was she still there when Eddard found her in the Tower of Joy?

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

When did that happen? Because I'd expect Ned to go to her immediately once he heard, whereas we know that after the sack of King's Landing when Rhaegar's children were presented to Ned, he first went to relieve the siege of Storm's End before continuing to Dorne and the Tower of Joy.

This is a good clue that really questions my theory. This opens a lot of new questions, let me think about that.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Oh come on. No more substantial arguments left against the "Lyanna send a message to her brother" theory?

I mean something more substantial than claiming that I am wrong. Of course there is no direct proof in the books for a letter/message from Lyanna to Eddard. But the advantage of this theory is, that it only needs a single explanation to join the pieces of a complicated puzzle together.

No other theory could do that - apart from aliens.

But I have to admit, that this exact puzzle maybe only exists in my mind.

Therefore I have a lot of ideas for new threads to define the puzzle pieces.

I've given you lots of reasons why I can't back your theory but the main one is that there just is no evidence to back it. 

It's possible, yes. But my point with the aliens is that anything is possible. It's fun to speculate & if you are saying maybe this happened or maybe that happened - fine, maybe it did. But unless/until you have some textual evidence to back it up it isn't going to ring true to the rest of us. 

A million other things could pull this all together that don't include a letter. Maybe someone told Eddard, maybe it wasn't a secret where she was being held at all, maybe Rhaegar used his dying breaths to tell someone, maybe the 3ER infiltrated Ned's dreams to tell him, maybe Varys' little birds knew etc

[Wolfbynature]

On 7/6/2019 at 8:55 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

When did that happen? Because I'd expect Ned to go to her immediately once he heard,

I agree to 100%. It is also my opinion that Ned would have taken immediate action after getting
knowledge about the whereabouts of his sister. 

 

On 7/6/2019 at 8:55 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

whereas we know that after the sack of King's Landing when Rhaegar's children were presented to Ned, he first went to relieve the siege of Storm's End before continuing to Dorne and the Tower of Joy.

If you think it through, then this speaks even more for a message from Lyanna to Ned. 

Why? 

After KL, Ned headed south with an army to lift the siege of Storm´s End. I dont see any reasons why someone there could have had knowledge about the Tower of Joy. There were no Dornish in the Army under command of Mace Tyrell. All the dornish men have been at the Trident.

If there was someone with knowledge, perhaps Ashara Dayne, then in Kings Landing. If someone had informed Ned there, he would never have gone to Storme´s End. 

But with Ned on the way to Storme´s End. If anybody wanted to share his knowledge about the Tower of Joy, then Ned was´nt the first choice. The information would have reached Jon Arryn or Robert instead. 

But it was Ned at the Tower of Joy. Not men commisioned by Jon Arryn or Robert. And if Robert had intructed Ned to do so, then it would have been a different party, not only men from the north.

So it is very likely for me that it was Ned and only Ned that was informed about the Tower of Joy. So it was a goal to inform solely him, even if it was difficult. Who should have done that, if not a messanger from Lyanna?

Maybe the messanger arrived to late in Kings Landing to meet Ned. Then he followed him to Storme´s End to catch him there.

Why was the messanger to late? Only after the Battle of the Tridend the situation became desperate for Lyanna. This desperation was the final reason to message her brother. But it was a long way from the Trident to the Tower of Joy. During the time the outcome of the battle needet to reach Lyanne. Ned was already on his way to KL, accompanied by his army.

Then Lyanna needet some time to become clear about her prospects, to organise things, write a letter, find and instruct a messanger. The way to KL took some time as well and when the messanger finally arrived at KL, Ned was no longer there.  
 

[Wolfbynature]

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

A million other things could pull this all together that don't include a letter.

You mention a lot (millions) of things that could equally be true, but each of your arguments is weak. I´m still waiting for a stronger one.

Lets proof it.

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe someone told Eddard

 We do not know, who this "someone" is. But we know when he did it and we know some of his intenstions.

He did it after the relieve of the siege of Storm´s End. Because it is likely that Ned would have taken immediate action after getting knowledge about the whereabouts of his sister. And he only took action then.

Why do we know something about his intentions?
People with knowledge about the Tower of Joy are either dornish, companions of Rheager, members of the royal household or things combined like e.g. Ashara Dayne. I have no reason to assume that Ned have met some of those at Storm´s End. In addition, if someone wanted to share his knowledge, it would have been a lot easier for him to inform either Jon Arryn or Robert, who also would have been very interessted in this subject. They were in KL and not en route like Eddard. That Eddard was the first to arrive at the Tower of Joy, shows that no other was informed, not Jon and not Robert, not Tywin. Which sounds intentional to me.  So for me it is no longer "someone", but a person with a mission.

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

maybe it wasn't a secret where she was being held at all

Then why was it Eddard that arrived first? After the lifting of the Siege of Storm´s End. There would have been a lot of time for Robert or Jon Arryn to send men. 

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

maybe Rhaegar used his dying breaths to tell someone

If Rheagar had used his last words to reveal Lyannas wereabouts, then it has been very likely that Robert had knowledge about that. Because he was there, not Eddard. Then it would have been a different party that had reached the tower of Joy, not only men from the north and a lot earlier. But I see no reasons for Rheagar doing that.

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

maybe the 3ER infiltrated Ned's dreams to tell him

So everybody could have had known everything. But this does not explain the sequence of events. Everybody would agree that this is a rather weak argument not unlike the thing with the aliens.

 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

maybe Varys' little birds knew

So why did´nt they told him in KL? They waited till he liftet the siege of Storm´s End? Because I suggest, that Ned would have taken immediate action after getting knowledge about the Tower of Joy.

You do not need "million other things could pull this all together", just one good argument to disproof the "Lyanna send her brother a message" theory.

[OneFretfulTrout]

BTW why did Robert apparently never consider that Lyanna might get punished for the death of Rhaegar’s children even though she was supposedly still a captive of some remaining Targaryen loyalists? In Sansa’s, Jaime’s and other cases, this is quite important. So when Robert saw the bodies, one would expect that he’d get angry at Tywin for endangering Lyanna.

???

[Loose Bolt]

13 hours ago, OneFretfulTrout said:

BTW why did Robert apparently never consider that Lyanna might get punished for the death of Rhaegar’s children even though she was supposedly still a captive of some remaining Targaryen loyalists? In Sansa’s, Jaime’s and other cases, this is quite important. So when Robert saw the bodies, one would expect that he’d get angry at Tywin for endangering Lyanna.

???

I assume that to Robert Lyanna was spoiled goods and he had already lost her. Or he understood that a king cannot marry a woman who is not a virgin anymore.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

You mention a lot (millions) of things that could equally be true, but each of your arguments is weak. I´m still waiting for a stronger one.

Lets proof it

This is my point exactly! Your argument is weak & without merit. Any number of things are equally as likely as what you state. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

We do not know, who this "someone" is. But we know when he did it and we know some of his intenstions.

He did it after the relieve of the siege of Storm´s End. Because it is likely that Ned would have taken immediate action after getting knowledge about the whereabouts of his sister. And he only took action then.

We don't know this but I'll agree it's likely that Ned went directly to his sister upon finding out where she was. However, I do not believe Ned would have left the Siege to go to his sister even if he found out about her whereabouts during it. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Why do we know something about his intentions?
People with knowledge about the Tower of Joy are either dornish, companions of Rheager, members of the royal household or things combined like e.g. Ashara Dayne. I have no reason to assume that Ned have met some of those at Storm´s End. In addition, if someone wanted to share his knowledge, it would have been a lot easier for him to inform either Jon Arryn or Robert, who also would have been very interessted in this subject. They were in KL and not en route like Eddard. That Eddard was the first to arrive at the Tower of Joy, shows that no other was informed, not Jon and not Robert, not Tywin. Which sounds intentional to me.  So for me it is no longer "someone", but a person with a mission

No we don't know who knew she was there. We also don't know Eddard was the first to arrive at the tower of joy so it shows nothing. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Then why was it Eddard that arrived first? After the lifting of the Siege of Storm´s End. There would have been a lot of time for Robert or Jon Arryn to send men

Again we have no idea Ned was the first. Secondly if he was or wasn't first has nothing to do with Jon Arryn or Robert. It would make sense for Jon or Robert to send Ned. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

If Rheagar had used his last words to reveal Lyannas wereabouts, then it has been very likely that Robert had knowledge about that. Because he was there, not Eddard. Then it would have been a different party that had reached the tower of Joy, not only men from the north and a lot earlier. But I see no reasons for Rheagar doing that

There is no reason Robert wouldn't have told Ned & let Ned pick his own party. Just because you don't see a reason for Rhaegar to do that doesn't mean there wasn't one. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

So everybody could have had known everything. But this does not explain the sequence of events. Everybody would agree that this is a rather weak argument not unlike the thing with the aliens

Yes it's weak. Like the aliens & like your own argument. There is just as much proof for this as your argument. That is my point exactly. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

So why did´nt they told him in KL? They waited till he liftet the siege of Storm´s End? Because I suggest, that Ned would have taken immediate action after getting knowledge about the Tower of Joy

Maybe they did tell him in KL. Maybe they didn't find out until after the Siege. I understand what you suggest & agree Ned would have went directly to his sister upon finding out IF he was able. 

 

On 7/8/2019 at 5:05 AM, Wolfbynature said:

You do not need "million other things could pull this all together", just one good argument to disproof the "Lyanna send her brother a message" theory

You presented the theory so the burden of proof lies on you. I don't have to disprove it, you need to prove it. There is not one single shred of evidence suggesting this happened. That is my point with all the other possible scenarios. 

[Bronn Urgandy]

I think it’s flawed in that 8 men wasted their lives for no good reason, until proven otherwise I think that by the time Eddard arrived Dayne & co had become utter bloodthirsty pricks, clearly annoyed they missed the war, clearly annoyed their Royal line got spanked up and down Westeros, they decided to take it out on Eddard and his men, those poor bastards survived a year and a half of warfare to get killed by three bitter men who had already lost, sneering that they swore an oath. What did Dayne expect to say to Lyanna has he emerged victorious? ‘Hey, your bro turned up cos he was worried about you, I killed him though, fuckin pussy! Yeah he totes would have killed your son though, yeah, would’ve!’

Sometimes I really sympathise with ACOK Cat dealing with Stannis and Renly, those guys needed their Mothers to knock some sense into them. Of Aerys’ 7 I am particularly glad Darry and Hightower died in the end though, I hope it was slow and painful for them both, until the TOJ I would not have judged Dayne and Whent too harshly, Barristan attempted to atone at least and Jaime (at the time) was the best of them

[SFDanny]

On 7/8/2019 at 9:31 AM, OneFretfulTrout said:

BTW why did Robert apparently never consider that Lyanna might get punished for the death of Rhaegar’s children even though she was supposedly still a captive of some remaining Targaryen loyalists? In Sansa’s, Jaime’s and other cases, this is quite important. So when Robert saw the bodies, one would expect that he’d get angry at Tywin for endangering Lyanna.

???

I think the question needs to be flipped around. Why was Lyanna never used as a hostage against Robert or Ned's conduct? I think the answer is staring the reader in the face. Because Aerys never has control over Lyanna. Aerys shows us he will use threats to Elia and her children to enforce Dornish conduct in the rebellion, and if I'm right that extends to use of threats to Elia and her children to enforce Rhaegar's conduct as well. But Lyanna's life is never threatened. It tells us that Aerys never controls Lyanna even after Rhaegar goes north and leaves Hightower with Lyanna. In short it is a very strong indication that Rhaegar has been in control of Lyanna's well being since the "kidnapping" and he never chooses to threaten her life for any political or tactical advantage. Rhaegar's only "threat" is to keep Lyanna hidden away from everyone, including her family and her betrothed.

So why don't the rebels fear for Lyanna being punished for Elia and Rhaegar's children's murder? Because her life has never been threatened by those who hide her. Which implies that the rebels - including Robert and Ned - know this wasn't a simple kidnapping. One can argue what both Ned and Robert thought of Rhaegar's motives, but they must understand that threatening her life isn't on his agenda. They must have understood that at least since they raised their banners in rebellion and no threat to Lyanna was ever issued to either of them. I'd argue that Ned knew it since Harrenhal.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/8/2019 at 11:31 AM, OneFretfulTrout said:

BTW why did Robert apparently never consider that Lyanna might get punished for the death of Rhaegar’s children even though she was supposedly still a captive of some remaining Targaryen loyalists? In Sansa’s, Jaime’s and other cases, this is quite important. So when Robert saw the bodies, one would expect that he’d get angry at Tywin for endangering Lyanna.

???

Hostages must be common knowledge in order for them to incentivize any behavior. The Targaryen regime hadn't admitted to having Lyanna at all, and by the time Rhaegar's children were prevented it had ceased to exist. That is completely different from Sansa's situation.

On 7/9/2019 at 12:41 AM, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that to Robert Lyanna was spoiled goods and he had already lost her. Or he understood that a king cannot marry a woman who is not a virgin anymore.

Robert doesn't think of her that way. He thinks that she was raped countless times by Rhaegar, but he's also angry that Rhaegar "won" via Lyanna's death keeping her from Robert. It's not like Cersei had her virginity attested either. The important thing is preventing ambiguity over whether the new queen's offspring is that of the king or someone else, so with Margaery her virginity was proclaimed so that she could remarry quickly after Renly's death. So in a hypothetical where Lyanna survives, either evidence would be given that she gave birth between Rhaegar's death and marrying Robert, or the marriage might be delayed for long enough to prove that she wasn't pregnant.

21 hours ago, SFDanny said:

In short it is a very strong indication that Rhaegar has been in control of Lyanna's well being since the "kidnapping" and he never chooses to threaten her life for any political or tactical advantage. Rhaegar's only "threat" is to keep Lyanna hidden away from everyone, including her family and her betrothed.

So why don't the rebels fear for Lyanna being punished for Elia and Rhaegar's children's murder? Because her life has never been threatened by those who hide her. Which implies that the rebels - including Robert and Ned - know this wasn't a simple kidnapping. One can argue what both Ned and Robert thought of Rhaegar's motives, but they must understand that threatening her life isn't on his agenda. They must have understood that at least since they raised their banners in rebellion and no threat to Lyanna was ever issued to either of them. I'd argue that Ned knew it since Harrenhal.

Rhaegar was completely absent. Nobody seemed to know where he was. They might conclude that she wasn't kidnapped specifically to extort them into making any political concessions, but that would be an unlikely thing for the Targaryens to do BEFORE war broke out.

On 7/8/2019 at 2:42 AM, Wolfbynature said:

So it is very likely for me that it was Ned and only Ned that was informed about the Tower of Joy. So it was a goal to inform solely him, even if it was difficult. Who should have done that, if not a messanger from Lyanna?

Maybe the messanger arrived to late in Kings Landing to meet Ned. Then he followed him to Storme´s End to catch him there.

Why was the messanger to late? Only after the Battle of the Tridend the situation became desperate for Lyanna. This desperation was the final reason to message her brother. But it was a long way from the Trident to the Tower of Joy. During the time the outcome of the battle needet to reach Lyanne. Ned was already on his way to KL, accompanied by his army.

Then Lyanna needet some time to become clear about her prospects, to organise things, write a letter, find and instruct a messanger. The way to KL took some time as well and when the messanger finally arrived at KL, Ned was no longer there.  
 

If a messenger arrived in King's Landing looking for Ned, I think the rebels/victors would seek to hear what that messenger had to say. Varys seems to know when people arrive in King's Landing, even if they're trying to be secretive, so it might be hard to keep that a secret. But we don't need to postulate this additional person/messenger who knows this secret about the Tower of Joy and shared it with Ned. We already have Ashara Dayne as someone Ned has interacted with and knows is connected to both Rhaegar & Rhaegar's best friend (one of the three still missing kingsguard). After relieving Storm's End, Ned would be the closest he's been to Dorne. He could have simply decided to continue to there to ask if Ashara knew anything.

[SFDanny]

1 minute ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Rhaegar was completely absent. Nobody seemed to know where he was. They might conclude that she wasn't kidnapped specifically to extort them into making any political concessions, but that would be an unlikely thing for the Targaryens to do BEFORE war broke out.

Rhaegar is in King's Landing for a considerable time - a matter of some months while he rebuilds his army and the Dornish arrive - during which he could have issued a threat to Lyanna's life to the rebels to attempt to make them surrender, if he chose to do so, but nothing of the sort takes place. During the time before the Arryns, the Starks, and the Baratheons raise their banners in rebellion either Rhaegar, or Aerys if he had control of Lyanna, could have used a threat to Lyanna's life to try to get them to stop their rebellion, but that never happens. In the immediate aftermath of the "kidnapping" using Lyanna as a hostage to make the Starks and their allies to break their marriage vows was entirely possible, but it never happened. Why? We are forced to conclude that Rhaegar never wanted to use Lyanna in this way, and that Aerys who proved quite capable of using his own family as hostages did not have control of Lyanna ("Rhaegar could not be found") in order to do so. Which tells us why Robert, Ned, Jon, Arryn, and Hoster Tully did not fear punishment towards Lyanna, and did not consider it after the murders of Elia and her children. All of which should also tell us something about the orders Hightower, Whent, and Dayne had from Rhaegar about Lyanna - to keep her safe from all.

[Wolfbynature]

On 7/8/2019 at 6:31 PM, OneFretfulTrout said:

BTW why did Robert apparently never consider that Lyanna might get punished for the death of Rhaegar’s children even though she was supposedly still a captive of some remaining Targaryen loyalists? In Sansa’s, Jaime’s and other cases, this is quite important. So when Robert saw the bodies, one would expect that he’d get angry at Tywin for endangering Lyanna.

This is really a good point, that seems to add to the flawed aspects of this story. 
On the one hand, Robert thought of Lyanna as victim and on the other hand, he was indifferent about her fate. 

But I suggest, that it was´nt so much Robert´s feelings for Lyanna but the affront against House Baratheon that led to the war. If he did care about Lyannas well-beeing, then this were thoughts he had to deal with before he "crossed the Rubicon" and started the rebellion. 

After that, the brutality of war and the prospects of power spoiled him to the point, that even the killing of an innocent baby did´nt bother him anymore. 

 

On 7/13/2019 at 7:05 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

If a messenger arrived in King's Landing looking for Ned, I think the rebels/victors would seek to hear what that messenger had to say. Varys seems to know when people arrive in King's Landing, even if they're trying to be secretive, so it might be hard to keep that a secret. But we don't need to postulate this additional person/messenger who knows this secret about the Tower of Joy and shared it with Ned. We already have Ashara Dayne as someone Ned has interacted with and knows is connected to both Rhaegar & Rhaegar's best friend (one of the three still missing kingsguard). After relieving Storm's End, Ned would be the closest he's been to Dorne. He could have simply decided to continue to there to ask if Ashara knew anything.

Good point. You are right, a person/messanger with enough credibility to convince Ned of his mission and authenticity of his message, would have attracted the attention of Varys and his little birds. 

But look on the map! There is only one main road from KL southwards. It is very likely that my proposed messenger from Dorne travelled on the same road that Ned and his army used a few day before on their way to Storme´s End. It is unlikely that he did´nt got notice of the big army that came along if he talked to travellers/refugees from KL. I would have asked people if I would have been this messenger.

And so, the messenger never reached KL, but took the junction to the Stormlands.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/13/2019 at 12:23 PM, SFDanny said:

Rhaegar is in King's Landing for a considerable time - a matter of some months while he rebuilds his army and the Dornish arrive - during which he could have issued a threat to Lyanna's life to the rebels to attempt to make them surrender, if he chose to do so, but nothing of the sort takes place. During the time before the Arryns, the Starks, and the Baratheons raise their banners in rebellion either Rhaegar, or Aerys if he had control of Lyanna, could have used a threat to Lyanna's life to try to get them to stop their rebellion, but that never happens. In the immediate aftermath of the "kidnapping" using Lyanna as a hostage to make the Starks and their allies to break their marriage vows was entirely possible, but it never happened. Why? We are forced to conclude that Rhaegar never wanted to use Lyanna in this way, and that Aerys who proved quite capable of using his own family as hostages did not have control of Lyanna ("Rhaegar could not be found") in order to do so. Which tells us why Robert, Ned, Jon, Arryn, and Hoster Tully did not fear punishment towards Lyanna, and did not consider it after the murders of Elia and her children. All of which should also tell us something about the orders Hightower, Whent, and Dayne had from Rhaegar about Lyanna - to keep her safe from all.

Marriage vows aren't so easily broken. And while the Targaryens had already greatly diminished their legitimacy, openly using Lyanna as a hostage would lower it even further. The Lannisters were able to treat Sansa like a hostage, but she was brought to King's Landing by Ned after he'd betrothed her to Joffrey, and the betrothal remained official until Blackwater & the Tyrell alliance. If Lyanna really was in King's Landing, that would bolster Brandon's stance, which the King's supporters might have dismissed as baseless calumny.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:21 AM, Wolfbynature said:

This is really a good point, that seems to add to the flawed aspects of this story. 
On the one hand, Robert thought of Lyanna as victim and on the other hand, he was indifferent about her fate. 

He wasn't indifferent. He's still stewing over it.

Quote

But I suggest, that it was´nt so much Robert´s feelings for Lyanna but the affront against House Baratheon that led to the war. If he did care about Lyannas well-beeing, then this were thoughts he had to deal with before he "crossed the Rubicon" and started the rebellion.

It was an affront against house STARK which led to the war. Aerys killed Brandon & Rickard, even after the latter had obeyed his summons to King's Landing and demanded a trial. It was afterward that he demanded the heads of Ned & Robert. Robert didn't do jack when he was "affronted", it was instead Brandon who was moved to action and had to be restrained at Harrenhall. Robert & Ned has basically no choice but to rebel unless they were willing to die themselves. It's really Jon Arryn who makes the choice of protecting the wards who were guests in his home over loyalty to a king who'd shown himself to be a lawless despot. If Robert is thought to have disregarded Lyanna's well-being, then Ned & Jon would be in the same boat.

Quote

Good point. You are right, a person/messanger with enough credibility to convince Ned of his mission and authenticity of his message, would have attracted the attention of Varys and his little birds. 

But look on the map! There is only one main road from KL southwards. It is very likely that my proposed messenger from Dorne travelled on the same road that Ned and his army used a few day before on their way to Storme´s End. It is unlikely that he did´nt got notice of the big army that came along if he talked to travellers/refugees from KL. I would have asked people if I would have been this messenger.

And so, the messenger never reached KL, but took the junction to the Stormlands.

There is still no evidence for this hypothetical messenger, whom people other than Ned would have known about. If such a person did exist, it likely became rather common knowledge among the rebels that's how Ned wound up headed to Dorne.

[SFDanny]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:06 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Marriage vows aren't so easily broken. And while the Targaryens had already greatly diminished their legitimacy, openly using Lyanna as a hostage would lower it even further. The Lannisters were able to treat Sansa like a hostage, but she was brought to King's Landing by Ned after he'd betrothed her to Joffrey, and the betrothal remained official until Blackwater & the Tyrell alliance. If Lyanna really was in King's Landing, that would bolster Brandon's stance, which the King's supporters might have dismissed as baseless calumny.

What exactly do marriage vows have to do with this discussion? Could you be more specific? Rhaegar's marriage vows, or someone else's? Or are you speaking of broken betrothals? Specifically the broken betrothal of Robert and Lyanna?

I would also disagree that broken marriage vows have diminished Targaryen legitimacy. Many Targaryens have broken those vows and prior to Aerys's reign those broken vows had little to nothing to do with the strength of Targaryen rule. The loss of dragons? Very much so. Broken marriage vows? Not so much.

My understanding of the point under discussion here was the question of why weren't Ned and Robert concerned about a threat on Lyanna's life in revenge for the killing of Elia and her children at the sack of King's Landing? My response is there is no evidence that Lyanna's life was threatened anytime after the "kidnapping." in order to change anyone's conduct in any way. To the contrary, what her "kidnappers" and "gaolers" do is one thing - to keep her hidden from everyone else. That is what we call a clue. A clue to the wants of Rhaegar, and maybe of Lyanna herself. It tells us that Rhaegar doesn't want to threaten Lyanna, and that his agenda is helped if Lyanna is not controlled by Aerys, Robert, Ned, Brandon, Rickard, the Martell brothers, or anyone else who would benefit by her location being known.

If, on the other hand, Lyanna was in King's Landing under Aerys's control, we have ample evidence that he would us her as a hostage and threaten her life against the conduct of her family and Robert. What this should tell us is that the rebels know that despite Rhaegar coming north to join his father in the war against the rebellion, that control of Lyanna hasn't changed in order to allow her to be used as a hostage.

[Wolfbynature]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:23 PM, SFDanny said:

During the time before the Arryns, the Starks, and the Baratheons raise their banners in rebellion either Rhaegar, or Aerys if he had control of Lyanna, could have used a threat to Lyanna's life to try to get them to stop their rebellion, but that never happens. In the immediate aftermath of the "kidnapping" using Lyanna as a hostage to make the Starks and their allies to break their marriage vows was entirely possible, but it never happened. Why?

I see what you want to imply. That Eddard and Robert already knew about the true nature of Rheagars and Lyannas relationship. It is not clear if this was the case with Eddard, but I don´t see this with Robert. Because I can explain his behavior otherwise.

It wasn´t him that gave the order to kill Elia and her children. After the murder had happened, Robert saw the benefit of this action, fewer Targarian pretenders. And to condemm it would have caused serious troubles with a potential ally in his not yet stabilized rule. 

It was not the personal relationship with Lyanna, that drove Robert. When it comes to Lyanna, it was the affront against House Baratheon that bothered him. I share the assumption, that a raped Lyanna was kind of spoiled goods for him, so he gave her well-being a lesser priority.

That was not the case for Eddard. He felt really bad about the murder. And maybe his worry about the well-being of Lyanna was part of it. 

[SFDanny]

17 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

I see what you want to imply. That Eddard and Robert already knew about the true nature of Rheagars and Lyannas relationship. It is not clear if this was the case with Eddard, but I don´t see this with Robert. Because I can explain his behavior otherwise.

It wasn´t him that gave the order to kill Elia and her children. After the murder had happened, Robert saw the benefit of this action, fewer Targarian pretenders. And to condemm it would have caused serious troubles with a potential ally in his not yet stabilized rule. 

It was not the personal relationship with Lyanna, that drove Robert. When it comes to Lyanna, it was the affront against House Baratheon that bothered him. I share the assumption, that a raped Lyanna was kind of spoiled goods for him, so he gave her well-being a lesser priority.

That was not the case for Eddard. He felt really bad about the murder. And maybe his worry about the well-being of Lyanna was part of it. 

I actually was not trying to deal with the question of the "nature" of Rhaegar's relationship and who knew about it although I've state my opinion on that topic many times in the past. I was trying to deal with the narrower issue of the fact we have nothing to show any threat to Lyanna's life over the time of her "captivity." From the "kidnapping" to her death. Even at the very end of the fight at the Tower of Joy we have nothing that points the Kingsguard using Lyanna as a hostage to Ned's retreat or surrender.

I do think the evidence points to Ned knowing that Lyanna went willingly. I think so because all of Lyanna's brothers were at Harrenhal and they surely knew something of Lyanna's feelings to those events. I also think Ned knew much earlier of his sister's feelings towards Robert. He delivers the proposal to her and hears her words on love not changing a "man's nature." I do not think that knowledge means he told Robert about how Lyanna felt.

[Wolfbynature]

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I actually was not trying to deal with the question of the "nature" of Rhaegar's relationship and who knew about it although I've state my opinion on that topic many times in the past. I was trying to deal with the narrower issue of the fact we have nothing to show any threat to Lyanna's life over the time of her "captivity." From the "kidnapping" to her death. Even at the very end of the fight at the Tower of Joy we have nothing that points the Kingsguard using Lyanna as a hostage to Ned's retreat or surrender.

I do think the evidence points to Ned knowing that Lyanna went willingly. I think so because all of Lyanna's brothers were at Harrenhal and they surely knew something of Lyanna's feelings to those events. I also think Ned knew much earlier of his sister's feelings towards Robert. He delivers the proposal to her and hears her words on love not changing a "man's nature." I do not think that knowledge means he told Robert about how Lyanna felt.

This is a profound and moderate statement and I agree to 100% with it. 
The fog that surrounds the "Tower of Joy" slowly goes away.