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Wolfbynature

The whole "Tower of Joy" story is flawed

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It is entirely relevant. In the text, nobody has ever interpreted it in this way,

I already gave you multiple quotes where characters in the text do.

Catelyn clearly interprets it that way, since she thinks the Targaryens do not answer to the gods - therefore are not restricted by the strictures of the Faith.

Nether Jorah nor Dany want to be fighting the Faith when she returns to claim her throne, so clearly both of them believe that her having two husbands will not be a significant issue with the Faith.

I think anyone reading this thread has more than enough information now to see for themselves..

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7 hours ago, corbon said:

I already gave you multiple quotes where characters in the text do.

 

In other words, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism only sums up what we already know from the series proper.

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19 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let's take this a step at a time.

  • "In the text, nobody has ever interpreted it in this way"

The "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" is first laid out in the recently published Fire & Blood, Part 1, so it is quite understandable that previous to this some people have put theories out that don't lay out exactly what the doctrine itself says. However, Fire & Blood is quite explicit in what the doctrine means. It gives not only an explanation of the doctrine's meaning concerning the Faith's relationship to Targaryen marriage customs, but to Targaryen rule as a whole. It is the culmination of struggle by the Faith to overthrow the Targaryens and to reinstitute the Faith's sway over all such questions Westeros wide. It is the complete capitulation of the Faith's war with the Targaryens and is the surrender, along with Jaehaerys's imposition of royal power over religious trials and the formal outlawing of the Faith Militant. The Targaryens won. Big time. They won it all.

However, other than the recent explanation in Fire & Blood of the Doctrine itself, it is totally wrong to say the relationship between the Targaryens and the Faith, and the Targaryen ability continue with its marriage customs - including polygamy - "has never been interpreted this way."

Quite the contrary. That the Targaryens retained these rights throughout their dynasty has not only been "interpreted" as such by many readers, but has been done so for far longer than the publication of Fire & Blood. When @corbon gives you Catelyn's quote from A Clash of Kings and Ser Jorah's from A Storm of Swords, you should recognize clues used by readers as far back as the publication of ACoK that place polygamy firmly within Targaryen customs and choices. These boards don't go back that far, but I can tell you these quotes have been used by myself and many others to argue the same point @corbon makes. By far and away, the minority position over these many years has been that somewhere, somehow, the Targaryens had lost the right to choose a polygamous marriage if approved by the Targaryen king. It is this idea that has nothing to support it. Although, some few, have argued it along the way.

  • "so to the think that R&L would just take it upon themselves to do so and then imagine that everybody will just be OK with this is ludicrous."

What is ludicrous is to characterize the choice Rhaegar and Lyanna may have made to marry in this way. The history of events tells that if they made the choice to marry, it was with a very, very clear understanding that short of Rhaegar becoming king himself and winning against the rebellion that it would not be a choice accepted by either side of the rebellion. That does not mean the choice to marry as a Husband to a second wife was not made, nor that polygamy was not thought to be an acceptable choice by a Targaryen to make. It is a choice both within Targaryen custom and within the context of the political realities the couple faced highly unlikely to be accepted. Unless Rhaegar wins it all.

Obviously he didn't. But that doesn't mean his and Lyanna's plan wasn't to win both the throne and the acceptance of their marriage.

  • "And there would be no reason to keep all of this hidden if this is what they were thinking."

Again to the contrary, there is every reason to "keep all of this hidden." In the beginning, hiding is their only method available for winning through to an unlikely victory. The two choose hiding in the pre-rebellion world in hopes that the Starks and the Baratheons would have to eventually accept Lyanna's refusal to marry Robert. Short of a duel to the death between Rhaegar and either Robert or a Stark family member, there is no path forward for them other than a refusal to come out into the open. The death of any of these people is hardly part of their plan.

When open war breaks out after Aerys has gone batshit crazy and killed Rickard, Brandon, and so many others, the two have little they can do to effect the outcome. But when Rhaegar is called back by Aerys, there opens a  very slim path to their plan succeeding. But that entails Rhaegar leaving Lyanna hidden and coming out to fight the rebellion and, hopefully replace his father on the throne. Hiding is a tactic towards an end. An end that might have been achieved if Robert's and Rhaegar's duel at the Trident had gone another way.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Regardless of whether the rest of the realm thinks or will someday think this marriage is legitimate, we agree that it must be kept hidden during the rebellion because neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna are in a position to make it so. So therefore, if the marriage must be kept hidden, then it stands to reason than any child produced from this marriage must also remain hidden, no? This was the reason Lyanna did not reach out to her father or brothers or anyone, because she knows she is on very shaky ground with the legality of this marriage. If either of them thought otherwise, then they simply would have come out of hiding, declared their union to be the law of the land, and returned to KL to live as one big happy Targ-Martell-Stark family.

But this is ludicrous because the Martells would certainly not put up with this, and neither would the Starks who had no say in the awarding of their only daughters' hand. Likewise, Aerys would not be pleased with the way Rhaegar has just elevated House Stark on his own, and neither would the church simply abide by a decision made in secret to weaken one of its most holy sacraments. Targaryens are different, OK, fine. But the Dornish still worship the seven, and neither does the North practice polygamy. So regardless of whether R&L are certain they are interpreting law correctly, there are still some very powerful forces at play who have a vested interest in undoing this marriage regardless of what the DoE says or does not say. This is why everything, including Jon, had to be kept secret.

But I contend that none of this is actually relevant. Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married and they never pretended to be. Their only goal was to produce the child who would sing the song of ice and fire and rescue all of humanity -- a tale first told to Howland Reed by the Green Men, then relayed to Lyanna who then relayed it to Rhaegar. None of what happened had anything to do with Lyanna's unwillingness to marry Robert, who was to be heir to the Iron Throne or how it affected Westerosi politics. It was a plan to save the earth.

 

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17 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I completely disagree.

Why? You are forgetting one thing.

The High Septon. What makes you think that Rhaegar (who everyone loved) couldn't have convinced the High Septon to make an exception and marry them both? Or any other powerful septon for that matter.

Thanks to Obara, we know that Oldtown is close enough to the Red Mountains for it to be stormed and sacked by a Dornish army. So, it is not implausible for Rhaegar and Lyanna to make a secret trip to Oldtown and then back to the Tower of Joy.

What makes you think Rhaegar could have convinced the High Septon to defy King Aerys, who most certainly would not be pleased with elevating House Stark into the royal family without his leave? What makes you think that "any other powerful Septon", even the one in the Starry Sept, could overrule the High Seption in King's Landing and declare this marriage valid.

You have to remember, that laws are interpreted by men, and there are a lot of powerful men who would want this marriage declared illegitimate: Aerys, the Martells, the Starks, and virtually any other lord who is aghast at the idea that a crown prince could simply take their daughters and marry them, creating a harem of highborn maidens, without so much as a thank you, let alone a dowry and a proper wedding.

Sorry, but no. There is absolutely no way that R&L could think they could get away with this simply because the DoE doesn't specifically exclude polygamy. For more than two hundred years it has been an excuse for Targaryens to marry their siblings, not to turn worshippers of the seven into brood mares. Even if everything broke their way during the rebellion and Rhaegar was crowned king, he would have a helluva fight on his hands right from the start.

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14 hours ago, corbon said:

I already gave you multiple quotes where characters in the text do.

Catelyn clearly interprets it that way, since she thinks the Targaryens do not answer to the gods - therefore are not restricted by the strictures of the Faith.

Nether Jorah nor Dany want to be fighting the Faith when she returns to claim her throne, so clearly both of them believe that her having two husbands will not be a significant issue with the Faith.

I think anyone reading this thread has more than enough information now to see for themselves..

Elia Martell is not a Targeryen. Neither is Lyanna.

Dany will be Queen of Westeros with three dragons by her side. Dragonfire has a way of making people agree with you, especially when your other husband is half a world away and would not be considered a legitimate husband under the faith.

Remember, R&L do not get to decide for themselves what the DoE says or does not say. Laws are interpreted by men, and there is a wide body of powerful men who do not want to legitimize this marriage:

  • Aerys, who will not take kindly to elevating House Stark in this way without his leave
  • Rickard Stark, who will not take kindly to a crown prince undoing his arranged marriage and taking his only daughter without so much as a thank you, let alone a dowry and proper wedding
  • Doran Martell, who will not take kindly to his sister's diminished standing at court and the potential rival to the IT
  • any other high lord who fears setting a precedent in which kings or princes could simply snatch their daughters in the dark of night and create a stable of brood mares
  • the High Septon, who does not want to water down the sacrament of marriage for followers of the faith

So, no, there is no way that R&L could think they could get away with this, which is why I contend this had nothing to do with heirs or politics but was instead devoted solely to creating he who sings the song of ice and fire.

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7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

In other words, the Doctrine of Exceptionalism only sums up what we already know from the series proper.

I would put it slightly differently. I think the Doctrine of Exceptionalism confirms most of what we expected. It also gives us elements of the history we hadn’t seen before.  How the Targaryens win the Faith to this view is a combination of the aftermath of Maegor’s brutal war and Jaehaerys’s brilliant understanding of how to accept the surrender of one’s enemies. The how of it is important in understanding just how complete is the Targaryen victory. Any thought that the Faith had somehow won a end to polygamy should be discarded as absurd 

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On 6/16/2019 at 3:16 AM, alienarea said:

Crossbows were outlawed because the knights didn't have a chance. The three KG at the ToJ were basically sitting ducks. Ned and his comrades could have run them over with their horses as well.

Medieval Europe was politically decentralized. There was nobody capable of outlawing a potent weapon. That's why the later spread of gunpowder weapons was inexorable.

On 6/16/2019 at 6:37 PM, corbon said:

Daemon Blackfyre is thought to have. Given the context, he should count as a Targaryen.

So Daemon interpreted it as possible, and no one suggested it was impossible.

Even the historical source referencing Daemon wanting a polygmous marriage only says that it's one account that has been told. We can't actually be confident that Daemon ever suggested it, all we know is that he didn't marry any Targaryens.

Quote

Jorah suggested it to Dany.

Dany's own thoughts indicate she agrees its possible.

Jorah is a northerner who doesn't follow the Faith (and broke one of its rules against selling slaves, a rule he recommends that Dany violate in order to purchase Unsullied), and he wants to marry Dany himself. There is no history of Targaryen polyandry (it's much less common than polygyny in our world as well), but Jorah is willing to use any argument that permits him getting what he wants. Dany has never set foot in Westeros. Unlike Young Griff, she was not raised by a Septa.

Quote

So much for saying "its impossible".

It wasn't physically impossible for Maegor to kill men and take their widows as his wives, but he died with his enemies (including his own kin) at his gates, and no Targaryen has done that since. It was physically possible for Aerys to order the executions of Rickard & Brandon Stark without trials, but he destroyed his dynasty in the process.

 

On 6/17/2019 at 1:10 AM, SFDanny said:

Once Septon Alfyn is named High Septon and the Doctrine of Exceptionalism is accepted by the Faith, there is nothing to stop any Targaryen from taking multiple spouses or unions between siblings, or anything else accepted in Old Valyria except the will of the reigning king. That Targaryen kings kept tight reign on who their family members wed is not surprising, but it isn't controlled by the Faith or by other customs, laws, or traditions. That remains true down to the end of Targaryen rule. The idea that another polygamous marriage could not take place among House Targaryen is simply without merit. It only waited the approval of a Targaryen king.

There are multiple examples of Targaryens marrying whom they chose rather than what politics dictated. Aegon IV also didn't give a fig for the stability of the realm, hence him legitimizing all his bastards and questioning the paternity of his own legitimate son. But even he didn't take on another wife. And the reason non-Targaryens considered marriages with Targaryens to be valuable was because it was believed even the royal family would abide by their marital vows. There's also a specific reasoning behind incestuous marriages for Targaryens that doesn't apply to polygamous ones: the distinctive Targaryen appearance was tied to their breeding, as was their dragonriding. The Targaryens weren't going to give up the thing that distinguished them and made their rule possible, whereas polygamy was inessential and could be discarded.

 

On 6/17/2019 at 9:59 AM, John Suburbs said:

They won't be upset by his bastardy, but in his potential to deprive Aegon of the crown. Catelyn couldn't do anything about Jon, but despised his presence in Winterfell, partly due to the fact that bastards were usually kept quiet and partly due to the threat he posed to her own children's inheritance, which eventually came to fruition under King Robb.

Daemon Blackfyre was able to threaten Daeron's crown because Aegon IV despised him and suggested he was the illegitmate offspring of Aemon the Dragonknight. That doesn't apply to Rhaegar's Aegon. Catelyn was worried because she was a Seven-following southron in Winterfell, and her only trueborn child to resemble Ned was Arya, whereas Jon looked just like Ned.

Quote

These things don't apply to Jon yet, but suppose Rhaegar legitimizes him in the future? Suppose the northern houses don't like the idea of a half-Dornish prince on the IT and all the political influence that brings to Dorne? There are all kinds of ways Jon could threaten peace in the realm or either diminish or enhance the status of one house over another, which means he could unleash bloodshed even if he himself does nothing to bring this about.

Rhaegar hasn't legitimized Jon, nor has any Targaryen done that with their bastard since Aegon the Unworthy. And Rhaegar's Aegon would still be older & unquestionably legitimate.

On 6/17/2019 at 1:20 PM, SFDanny said:

Read what the Doctrine of Exceptionalism says, not what phrase you arbitrarily decide it must say. It quite clearly means the Faith can no longer judge what the Targaryens do in their customs, traditions regarding marriage. As Septon Alfyn so succinctly puts its, 

What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them.”

It is hard to be clearer than that. The Faith will no longer judge what the Targaryens do. That includes polygamous marriages if they see fit. We know this why? Because that is clearly part of Targaryen history in the founding of their dynasty. Read and understand the history put forward for us to read, and it is very clear.

He doesn't say the Faith won't judge anything they do. He specifically referenced incest, and no other act. The Targaryens have not "always" had polygamous marriages, either before or after Aegon the Conqueror. It was atypical before him, and never done again after Maegor.

On 6/19/2019 at 3:29 PM, SFDanny said:

The "Doctrine of Exceptionalism" is first laid out in the recently published Fire & Blood, Part 1, so it is quite understandable that previous to this some people have put theories out that don't lay out exactly what the doctrine itself says. However, Fire & Blood is quite explicit in what the doctrine means. It gives not only an explanation of the doctrine's meaning concerning the Faith's relationship to Targaryen marriage customs, but to Targaryen rule as a whole. It is the culmination of struggle by the Faith to overthrow the Targaryens and to reinstitute the Faith's sway over all such questions Westeros wide. It is the complete capitulation of the Faith's war with the Targaryens and is the surrender, along with Jaehaerys's imposition of royal power over religious trials and the formal outlawing of the Faith Militant. The Targaryens won. Big time. They won it all.

If it had happened under Maegor's rule, then you might be on track. But instead they refused to accept Maegor, no matter how many people he killed. The accomodation with the Faith was reached under Jaehaerys the Conciliator, who never made a move to crush them and never married polygamously. He was known for his piety, had Septon Barth as his hand, and his disbanding of the martial orders was combined with a pardon of all those who had taken up arms along with a promise that the crown would defend the Faith from then on.

On 6/19/2019 at 6:14 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

The High Septon. What makes you think that Rhaegar (who everyone loved) couldn't have convinced the High Septon to make an exception and marry them both? Or any other powerful septon for that matter.

The court was divided between Aerys' supporters, and Rhaegar's (generally younger men in the latter case). As long as Aerys was still on the throne, he still had people sucking up to him. He could have lost support at the Harrenhal tourney due to his evident loss of faculties, but Rhaegar's behavior undermined any support he might have gotten from others.

On 6/19/2019 at 8:56 PM, corbon said:

Catelyn clearly interprets it that way, since she thinks the Targaryens do not answer to the gods - therefore are not restricted by the strictures of the Faith.

The Targaryens of ancient Valyria didn't answer to any gods, and their tradition of incest dates to there. After coming to Westeros the Targaryens have accepted the Faith and stopped marrying polygamously, even if they still engaged in incest.

Quote

Nether Jorah nor Dany want to be fighting the Faith when she returns to claim her throne, so clearly both of them believe that her having two husbands will not be a significant issue with the Faith.

Jorah is permanently exiled from Westeros for the crime of selling slaves, he is not giving Dany reliable advice about how to retake the throne. He advises her to go to Asshai with him.

On 6/20/2019 at 12:38 PM, SFDanny said:

I would put it slightly differently. I think the Doctrine of Exceptionalism confirms most of what we expected. It also gives us elements of the history we hadn’t seen before.  How the Targaryens win the Faith to this view is a combination of the aftermath of Maegor’s brutal war and Jaehaerys’s brilliant understanding of how to accept the surrender of one’s enemies. The how of it is important in understanding just how complete is the Targaryen victory. Any thought that the Faith had somehow won a end to polygamy should be discarded as absurd 

They didn't surrender. They opposed Maegor's rule and endorsed his rival for the throne. A belligerent doesn't normally surrender as soon as their enemy dies.

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On 6/22/2019 at 7:02 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Daemon Blackfyre was able to threaten Daeron's crown because Aegon IV despised him and suggested he was the illegitmate offspring of Aemon the Dragonknight. That doesn't apply to Rhaegar's Aegon. Catelyn was worried because she was a Seven-following southron in Winterfell, and her only trueborn child to resemble Ned was Arya, whereas Jon looked just like Ned.

Rhaegar hasn't legitimized Jon, nor has any Targaryen done that with their bastard since Aegon the Unworthy. And Rhaegar's Aegon would still be older & unquestionably legitimate.

Who knows what can happen in the future. A future Rhaegar could look upon a future Aegon and find him unfit to rule and seek to delegitimize him. Likewise, other lords could find Aegon unworthy and try to depose him by force. There are all kinds of ways Jon could pose a threat to Aegon, especially if he were to be legitimized as part of a legal polygamous marriage. Jon's mere existence is a huge threat to a wide swath of entrenched interests: Aerys, the church, Dorne, and virtually every lord in the realm who doesn't want their daughters to be taken from them, married without their leave and shuffled off into a Targaryen harem.

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Posted (edited)

The "Tower of Joy Story" is a complicated one and maybe less flawed than I thought. 

There are two questions that brought the solution for me. 

Why took Ned only so few men with him?

How could he knew about the secret whereabout of his sister? 

There must be a reason.

Lets speculate:

The answer is. There was a secret plot between Ned and his Sister Lyanna. Finally, after the sack of Kings Landing, a message from Lyanna arrived. There was no time for big preparations, for sending messages back and forth. All Ned could do was to take his best and most trustworthy men with him and to ride immediately to the secret place that Lyanna revealed him. He couldnt do that with an army. So he took all the man that were suitable for this kind of mission and he had only six of them available. 

All that Lyanna could do was to wait for her brother. So in respect of her condition she did everything to delay her "escape". OK, this needs a lot of trust in her brother and in the carrier of the message. But maybe she had a very trustworthy one.

Maybe she was no longer someone who was guarded, but more imprisioned by the KG. A prisoner of the situation and the oath that the KG gave to Rheagar. The oath to protect the heir to the throne, the future king. Thats why they were no longer guarding her live but more the claim to the throne for her (most of the time) unborn son. If they did surrender to Ned, maybe lyanna and the childrens live would have been saved but the claim to the throne had been lost. Thats why they fought.

For me, the mystery is solved now. What do you think? Sounds that plausible?

Edited by Wolfbynature
misspelling

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On 6/24/2019 at 9:16 AM, John Suburbs said:

Who knows what can happen in the future. A future Rhaegar could look upon a future Aegon and find him unfit to rule and seek to delegitimize him. Likewise, other lords could find Aegon unworthy and try to depose him by force. There are all kinds of ways Jon could pose a threat to Aegon, especially if he were to be legitimized as part of a legal polygamous marriage. Jon's mere existence is a huge threat to a wide swath of entrenched interests: Aerys, the church, Dorne, and virtually every lord in the realm who doesn't want their daughters to be taken from them, married without their leave and shuffled off into a Targaryen harem.

Robert fathering bastards wasn't regarded as a threat to anyone until Ned discovered Joffrey was illegitimate. There is no evidence in the books that Lyanna married Rhaegar. If Rhaegar had married Lyanna, that would be a big deal which would piss off numerous people, but that's independent from conceiving a child. The whole point of a marriage is that it's common knowledge, a secret marriage might as well not exist in legal terms.

On 6/25/2019 at 2:32 AM, Wolfbynature said:

How could he knew about the secret whereabout of his sister?

The simplest answer is that he heard about it from Ashara Dayne. We know her brother was Rhaegar's closest companion and at the Tower of Joy. We know that immediately afterward Ned brought his sword to Starfall. We know that Ned brought a wetnurse with Jon to Winterfell, and we hear from Edric Dayne that Wylla was his wetnurse and Jon's mother. Ned's memory of being pulled from Lyanna's body at the Tower has been taken to indicate that there was someone in addition to Howland there with him, which many believe included Wylla. If Starfall is sending a wetnurse (and possibly other things) to the Tower, it makes sense that Ashara would know about it. Barristan remembers that she "turned to" "Stark" around the time of the Harrenhall tourney, and we know Ned had danced with her after Brandon made the request on his behalf. If Lyanna is still missing after Rhaegar's death along with three Kingsguard, it makes a certain amount of sense that Ned would ask someone he's met who was both handmaid to Rhaegar's wife and sister of the kingsguard who was closest to Rhaegar (and was reportedly with him when Lyanna disappeared). Why Ashara would be willing to tell him is another story, but if she felt culpable for her brother's death afterward that could help explain her reaction.

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On 6/29/2019 at 8:07 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The simplest answer is that he heard about it from Ashara Dayne.

Even if there is no indication in the books that she did, it could have been Ashara Dayne that told Ned about the Tower of Joy. But this leaves a question unanswered, the other alternative (Lyanna told/wrote her brother) would not. 

Why did´nt Lyanna tried to escape? 

And there is another fact that speakes against this assumption. The Tower of Joy was not only the hideout of Lyanna, but also of Ashara´s brother, Ser Arthur Dayne. Why should Ashara reveal his whereabouts to the enemy?

I think the most simple answer to all this questions around the tower of joy is also the most likely: Lyanna told/wrote her brother where she was and in which circumstances and waited till he arrived.

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9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Even if there is no indication in the books that she did, it could have been Ashara Dayne that told Ned about the Tower of Joy. But this leaves a question unanswered, the other alternative (Lyanna told/wrote her brother) would not. 

Why did´nt Lyanna tried to escape? 

Thats not a question that needs answering - it assumes things that are not a given.

Why should Lyanna try to escape?
What would she do if she did escape?

9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

And there is another fact that speakes against this assumption. The Tower of Joy was not only the hideout of Lyanna, but also of Ashara´s brother, Ser Arthur Dayne. Why should Ashara reveal his whereabouts to the enemy?

There are many potential answers to this. Its not like its a difficult question, its just not one we have clues to which answer yet. 

9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

I think the most simple answer to all this questions around the tower of joy is also the most likely: Lyanna told/wrote her brother where she was and in which circumstances and waited till he arrived.

Well here's a very relevant question to that:
How did she do that?
Was such a communication sanctioned by her 'captors'? And if so, then the same questions you ask re Ashara giving them away apply. If not, then its very difficult to see her getting a message out.

ToJ is not on the raven network - even assuming she had the skills to use a raven.
She's clearly not got physical access to Ned to tell him where she is.
So who is her go between? Ashara? But you just ruled that out in favour of... nothing? Who has access to her and is loyal to her over her 'captors'?

I can;t see anything remotely reasonable about your 'alternative', at least so far.

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On 6/2/2019 at 6:20 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

All she had to do was sent a little raven saying:

“Hi Bro, I am sorry but I can’t marry Robert anymore, I am just so lost in Rhaegars silver hair and the sea of his eyes.”

I don't know why she would bother. Running of her own free will or not, she is doing a wicked thing by her family and Rhaegar seducing someone thus 'stealing' her from her betrothed and family is as offensive as kidnap. Plus, why Eddard? She does not seem that close to him, she has expressed reluctance to marry Robert and given her reasons and he was non-responsive, and he is bonded to Robert himself.

There's also the logistics of leaving a note - she would want to give herself as much time as possible to get away before they realise she is missing (unless she was actually taken in front of witnesses - it's so murky we can't be sure what happened) and a note risks that

It's always possible she got no warning of the event, or was indeed kidnapped. The lack of a not leaves it open.

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On 5/29/2019 at 5:59 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Hasn't GRRM said that Ned's fever dream about the ToJ isn't to be taken at face value?

Think about it, Ned finds the ToJ seemingly with ease despite having never been to Dorne before and Lyanna just happened to have given birth at that exact moment? In Ned's dream, right as they're about to fight Ned hears Lyanna scream out his name, but in the very next moment, she is covered in blood, dying and can only whisper. That right there tells me, that Lyanna did not give birth until some time after the event at the ToJ.

Given that its literally a fever dream, should have been obvious 20 odd years ago. What probably happened is that some Dornishmen ambushed him and his party while his was in the Dornish Stormland borderlands, thats where everybody but him, Howland Reed, and I'd swear a 3rd guy ended up surrendering and then they were taken to the Kingsguard.

 

They have a peaceful chat, Arthur surrenders his sword, Ned travels to Starfall, then gets on a boat, gets to King's Landing, chit chats with Robert, gets on a boat, gets to Winterfell before Catelyn, finds Lyanna, she dies, he puts her remains in a crypt. 

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11 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats not a question that needs answering - it assumes things that are not a given.

Why should Lyanna try to escape?
What would she do if she did escape?

Ok we are not speaking the same language. If we assume that she was´nt taken hostage by Rheagar, then it was, amongst other things, a series of her own decisions that led to a bloody war and to endless suffering of so many. 

She chose a side in this war and her side clearly lost. 

She certainly had to fear that she will be accounted for her wrong decisions. At least she had to marry
a man that she does not love and after killing Rheagar probably hates. I call this bad prospects.

Then there was a very obscure future of her baby in the custody of this man.

She had a lot of reasons to fear getting caught, at least by Robert.

The fear of getting cought leads to the wish to escape. 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

What would she do if she did escape?

This maybe was a point that also worried her. So she took a chance with her brother.

 

11 hours ago, corbon said:

Well here's a very relevant question to that:
How did she do that?
Was such a communication sanctioned by her 'captors'? And if so, then the same questions you ask re Ashara giving them away apply. If not, then its very difficult to see her getting a message out.

There is a complete thread dedicated to this topic. Even if she was held captive in some way, she was´nt exactly a prisoner. Therefore she had more room for actions. Maybe it was not easy for her to send Ned a message while he was en route. So all she could do was to arrange something in Kings Landing. So he got message from her after he arrived in KL.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Ok we are not speaking the same language. If we assume that she was´nt taken hostage by Rheagar, then it was, amongst other things, a series of her own decisions that led to a bloody war and to endless suffering of so many. 

She chose a side in this war and her side clearly lost. 

She certainly had to fear that she will be accounted for her wrong decisions. At least she had to marry
a man that she does not love and after killing Rheagar probably hates. I call this bad prospects.

Then there was a very obscure future of her baby in the custody of this man.

She had a lot of reasons to fear getting caught, at least by Robert.

The fear of getting cought leads to the wish to escape.

I don't think the issue is that you aren't speaking the same language. The issue is that you presume & assume too much for your explanations to be anything more than your wish or opinion. 

I find it much more likely that IF she wasn't held hostage/kidnapped by Rhaegar that she either 1. Loved him & did not care about the possible retributions for said act or she wouldn't have ran off with him to begin with or 2. (More likely IMO) assumed they would win in which case she would have no fear of any retribution. 

Of course there is also the possibility that this whole thing was part of something bigger & more profound. In which case maybe Lyanna thought the risk was worth it. 

 

Secondly, why in the world would Lyanna & Rhaegar's baby be in Robert's custody? It is ludicrous to believe Robert would have still married her after she was 'tainted' especially after he had been crowned. 

 

9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

There is a complete thread dedicated to this topic. Even if she was held captive in some way, she was´nt exactly a prisoner. Therefore she had more room for actions. Maybe it was not easy for her to send Ned a message while he was en route. So all she could do was to arrange something in Kings Landing. So he got message from her after he arrived in KL

We have absolutely no idea at what level, if any, she was held captive. Why would you assume she could have been "held captive" in some way but not be a prisoner? How is that even possible? If she was held captive it is much more likely that she was unable to move about freely & send word to whoever she chooses. That is kind of the definition of being held captive. 

Of course it's possible that IF she was held captive & IF the oppurtunity presented itself that she MAY have snuck to send someone word of her whereabouts but that's an awful lot of If's & May's for a message that, as far as the readers know, was never received. 

 

My point is there are just too many unknowns to say with any certainty how Ned knew to go to the TOJ.

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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13 hours ago, Vashon said:

Given that its literally a fever dream,

That is a misleading obfuscation.

The dream was had during a fever, yes. But its an old dream. One Ned has had many times before (when he wasn't fevered). One that Ned recognises from the opening scene and immediately gives us a labelling description for (including labels we didn't get to see in the dream).

Yes, there may be elements added or changed in the dream due to the fever (there are some weird bits that don't seem to be real towards the end), but the essence of the dream is not coming from his fever, its coming from his memory - in the dream as it was in life.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think the issue is that you aren't speaking the same language. The issue is that you presume & assume too much for your explanations to be anything more than your wish or opinion. 

Yes, this.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Of course it's possible that IF she was held captive & IF the oppurtunity presented itself that she MAY have snuck to send someone word of her whereabouts but that's an awful lot of If's & May's for a message that, as far as the readers know, was never received. 

 

My point, which was neatly avoided entirely, is that until she's at the ToJ, she can't possibly let Ned know "I'm at ToJ, come get me". Once she's at ToJ, how the heck is she getting word out to Ned?
There are no ravens to do so with, so it must be a human messenger.
What human messenger is/was at ToJ who is more loyal to Lyanna and Ned 'rescuing' her than to Rhaegar and his Kingsguard? And how were they 'let go'? 

Seems rather more questions, and ones that have zero reasonable answers, evolve in this scenario.

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

My point, which was neatly avoided entirely, is that until she's at the ToJ, she can't possibly let Ned know "I'm at ToJ, come get me". Once she's at ToJ, how the heck is she getting word out to Ned?
There are no ravens to do so with, so it must be a human messenger.
What human messenger is/was at ToJ who is more loyal to Lyanna and Ned 'rescuing' her than to Rhaegar and his Kingsguard? And how were they 'let go'? 

Seems rather more questions, and ones that have zero reasonable answers, evolve in this scenario

I agree 100%. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2019 at 7:43 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We have absolutely no idea at what level, if any, she was held captive. Why would you assume she could have been "held captive" in some way but not be a prisoner? How is that even possible? If she was held captive it is much more likely that she was unable to move about freely & send word to whoever she chooses. That is kind of the definition of being held captive. 

There is not only black or white in this topic. For example, if you are famous, of political importance or very rich. You are not able to move freely. There is allways security around. And more, if you are not an adult but a child of one of this persons. You would be very restricted, but not a prisoner.  

 

On 7/4/2019 at 5:20 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:
On 7/3/2019 at 10:42 PM, corbon said:

My point, which was neatly avoided entirely, is that until she's at the ToJ, she can't possibly let Ned know "I'm at ToJ, come get me". Once she's at ToJ, how the heck is she getting word out to Ned?
There are no ravens to do so with, so it must be a human messenger.
What human messenger is/was at ToJ who is more loyal to Lyanna and Ned 'rescuing' her than to Rhaegar and his Kingsguard? And how were they 'let go'? 

Seems rather more questions, and ones that have zero reasonable answers, evolve in this scenario

I agree 100%. 

Maybe let me turn you to 80% ;-)

So you imply that Lyanna really was a prisoner? That they distrusted her? That they were not only guarding her person and cared for her security but controlled and restricted her contact to people from outside?

I doubt that. I believe that she was considered at least as part of the royal family if not as the queen regend. 

I understand, that it was difficult for her to get a official letter to her brother marked with "Lord Eddard Stark, Warden of the North, et cetera et cetera".

But even if she had no northerner with her, all it needed was a friend that shared the same opinion, that after the defeat at the Trident, the safest option for Lyanna and the Baby was her brother. 

Mary Stewart managed to get secret messages out of Tutbury Castle and she was really imprisioned. So I think it was far from impossible for Lyanna to get a message to Eddard. 

The Tower of Joy maybe was situated on a remote location. But there were several people there, that had to be provided. There was some trafic from and to the place. We even do not know if it was meant as an secret love nest or hiding. Maybe it was only less known outside of Dorne that Rhaegar had this little castle. No paparazzi in ASOIAF that could tell the masses.

Edited by Wolfbynature
misspelling

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6 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

There is not only black or white in this topic. For example, if you are famous, of political importance or very rich. You are not able to move freely. There is allways security around. And more, if you are not an adult but a child of one of this persons. You would be very restricted, but not a prisoner

 If you are held captive & very restricted how are you not a prisoner? Members of the royal family in Westeros have security but they are most certainly not held captive. They are allowed to move freely. 

 

6 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

So you imply that Lyanna really was a prisoner? That they distrusted her? That they were not only guarding her person and cared for her security but controlled and restricted her contact to people from outside?

I doubt that. I believe that she was considered at least as part of the royal family if not as the queen regend. 

I understand, that it was difficult for her to get a official letter to her brother marked with "Lord Eddard Stark, Warden of the North, et cetera et cetera".

But even if she had no northerner with her, all it needed was a friend that shared the same opinion, that after the defeat at the Trident, the safest option for Lyanna and the Baby was her brother. 

Mary Stewart managed to get secret messages out of Tutbury Castle and she was really imprisioned. So I think it was far from impossible for Lyanna to get a message to Eddard. 

The Tower of Joy maybe was situated on a remote location. But there were several people there, that had to be provided. There was some trafic from and to the place. We even do not know if it was meant as an secret love nest or hiding. Maybe it was only less known outside of Dorne that Rhaegar had this little castle. No paparazzi in ASOIAF that could tell the masses.

No I don't imply any of that. I'm of the opinion that Lyanna went of her own free will with Rhaegar. But we don't know. 

You are missing the point. Sure it's possible (although difficult & unlikely) that Lyanna snuck a letter out to someone but there is no proof or indication that happened. It's also possible that aliens came down from above & told Ned where Lyanna was but there's not indication that happened either. 

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