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Wolfbynature

The whole "Tower of Joy" story is flawed

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On 7/24/2019 at 11:31 PM, Wolfbynature said:

I see what you want to imply. That Eddard and Robert already knew about the true nature of Rheagars and Lyannas relationship. It is not clear if this was the case with Eddard, but I don´t see this with Robert. Because I can explain his behavior otherwise.

Robert knows, he just won't admit it, even to himself.

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Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar  Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her."

Lovers are reunited in death, not rape victims and rapists.

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On 7/22/2019 at 7:52 PM, SFDanny said:

What exactly do marriage vows have to do with this discussion? Could you be more specific? Rhaegar's marriage vows, or someone else's? Or are you speaking of broken betrothals? Specifically the broken betrothal of Robert and Lyanna?

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using Lyanna as a hostage to make the Starks and their allies to break their marriage vows was entirely possible, but it never happened. Why?

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I would also disagree that broken marriage vows have diminished Targaryen legitimacy. Many Targaryens have broken those vows and prior to Aerys's reign those broken vows had little to nothing to do with the strength of Targaryen rule. The loss of dragons? Very much so. Broken marriage vows? Not so much.

I don't know what broken marriage vows you refer to there. A broken betrothal resulted in a brief but bloody war with the Baratheons, but that wasn't a marriage. No Targaryen has actually cast off their spouse.

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My understanding of the point under discussion here was the question of why weren't Ned and Robert concerned about a threat on Lyanna's life in revenge for the killing of Elia and her children at the sack of King's Landing? My response is there is no evidence that Lyanna's life was threatened anytime after the "kidnapping." in order to change anyone's conduct in any way. To the contrary, what her "kidnappers" and "gaolers" do is one thing - to keep her hidden from everyone else. That is what we call a clue. A clue to the wants of Rhaegar, and maybe of Lyanna herself. It tells us that Rhaegar doesn't want to threaten Lyanna, and that his agenda is helped if Lyanna is not controlled by Aerys, Robert, Ned, Brandon, Rickard, the Martell brothers, or anyone else who would benefit by her location being known.

If, on the other hand, Lyanna was in King's Landing under Aerys's control, we have ample evidence that he would us her as a hostage and threaten her life against the conduct of her family and Robert. What this should tell us is that the rebels know that despite Rhaegar coming north to join his father in the war against the rebellion, that control of Lyanna hasn't changed in order to allow her to be used as a hostage.

Keeping Lyanna hidden is consistent with trying to maintain deniability about responsibility for her abduction, as well as preventing anyone from coming to rescue her. If I suspected Gregor Clegane had kidnapped someone, I would not be at all re-assured that there was no longer any hint of this person's existence.

On 7/24/2019 at 6:31 AM, Wolfbynature said:

I see what you want to imply. That Eddard and Robert already knew about the true nature of Rheagars and Lyannas relationship. It is not clear if this was the case with Eddard

Counting against the idea that if Eddard knew was that he could have helped clear up what happened and thereby prevent the deaths of his father & brother.

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It was not the personal relationship with Lyanna, that drove Robert. When it comes to Lyanna, it was the affront against House Baratheon that bothered him. I share the assumption, that a raped Lyanna was kind of spoiled goods for him, so he gave her well-being a lesser priority.

Robert tries to laugh off the "affront" to him resulting from Lyanna being declared Queen of Love & Beauty. What changes things is Aerys demanding his head (and Ned's). And Robert never gives any indication he thought of Lyanna as "spoiled goods". He was still fixated on her during his wedding night to Cersei, and as quoted elsewhere in this thread he says it feels like he lost the war because he wound up with Cersei instead of Lyanna (whom he still idealizes and wrongly thinks wouldn't object to her husband the king risking his life in a melee).

On 7/25/2019 at 12:01 AM, SFDanny said:

I do think the evidence points to Ned knowing that Lyanna went willingly. I think so because all of Lyanna's brothers were at Harrenhal and they surely knew something of Lyanna's feelings to those events. I also think Ned knew much earlier of his sister's feelings towards Robert. He delivers the proposal to her and hears her words on love not changing a "man's nature." I do not think that knowledge means he told Robert about how Lyanna felt.

Brandon was one of those brothers, and it doesn't seem like he knew.

On 7/25/2019 at 2:26 PM, corbon said:

Robert knows, he just won't admit it, even to himself.

Lovers are reunited in death, not rape victims and rapists.

It's actually a very common belief among pre-literate societies that the people a man kills become his slaves in the afterlife. The writings of the Zodiac killer indicate a belief in that as well. But I think Robert is thinking simply in terms of what constitutes a victory vs loss for himself, imagining Rhaegar as having some sort of inverted utility function so that his only goal is to cause harm.

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On 7/27/2019 at 5:52 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Brandon was one of those brothers, and it doesn't seem like he knew.

Would it made any difference for Brandon, if he knew about the romantic feeling of Lyanna towards Rhaegar?

1. Even if he knew, he did´nt knew if she joined Rhaegar voluntarily. Which young girls did´nt fancied Rhaegar at this point?

2. Noble women were´nt asked if they wanted to marry someone or not. A marriage agreement between great houses was no love affair, but a political deal. A daughter of a great house had to obay. It was not neccessary that Lyanna was in love with Robert. And it also was of no importance, if she had a crush on someone else. From the perspective of Brandon and house Stark in general, Rheagar alone was responsible. 

Therefore Brandon would have gone to KL, even if he knew about a romantic nature of the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

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On 7/27/2019 at 5:52 PM, FictionIsntReal said:
On 7/25/2019 at 9:26 PM, corbon said:

Robert knows, he just won't admit it, even to himself.

Lovers are reunited in death, not rape victims and rapists.

It's actually a very common belief among pre-literate societies that the people a man kills become his slaves in the afterlife. The writings of the Zodiac killer indicate a belief in that as well. But I think Robert is thinking simply in terms of what constitutes a victory vs loss for himself, imagining Rhaegar as having some sort of inverted utility function so that his only goal is to cause harm.

Maybe it was´nt so complicated. Robert had certainly not a modern version of a relationship in mind, when it comes to women. Maybe he expressed that Rhaegar was in posession of Lyanna an he was not and never would be. Like someone owns something.  

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9 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Maybe it was´nt so complicated. Robert had certainly not a modern version of a relationship in mind, when it comes to women. Maybe he expressed that Rhaegar was in posession of Lyanna an he was not and never would be. Like someone owns something.  

How does a dead Rhaegar get to be in possession of a dead Lyanna, when her bones are buried in the Winterfell Crypt?

No other answer seems to work but that Robert subconsciously knows that Lyanna was with Rhaegar of her own choice, and that they were lovers. Even if he won't actually admit it to himself.

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Biggest flaw is that they had so much fun to call it that but we don't get to hear about that part.

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On 8/1/2019 at 5:50 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Would it made any difference for Brandon, if he knew about the romantic feeling of Lyanna towards Rhaegar?

1. Even if he knew, he did´nt knew if she joined Rhaegar voluntarily. Which young girls did´nt fancied Rhaegar at this point?

2. Noble women were´nt asked if they wanted to marry someone or not. A marriage agreement between great houses was no love affair, but a political deal. A daughter of a great house had to obay. It was not neccessary that Lyanna was in love with Robert. And it also was of no importance, if she had a crush on someone else. From the perspective of Brandon and house Stark in general, Rheagar alone was responsible. 

Therefore Brandon would have gone to KL, even if he knew about a romantic nature of the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Brandon is yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die. He's not acting like he's simply ensuring that a family alliance is adhered to. And it's not the case that a noble family regards the man alone as being responsible for an affair and broken betrothal, her father would seek to harshly discipline Lyanna for doing such a thing.

On 8/1/2019 at 5:56 AM, Wolfbynature said:

Maybe it was´nt so complicated. Robert had certainly not a modern version of a relationship in mind, when it comes to women. Maybe he expressed that Rhaegar was in posession of Lyanna an he was not and never would be. Like someone owns something.  

I think it is something like that, in a sense that I'll elaborate on below.

On 8/1/2019 at 3:42 PM, corbon said:

How does a dead Rhaegar get to be in possession of a dead Lyanna, when her bones are buried in the Winterfell Crypt?

No other answer seems to work but that Robert subconsciously knows that Lyanna was with Rhaegar of her own choice, and that they were lovers. Even if he won't actually admit it to himself.

Robert contrasts the absence of Lyanna with the presence of Cersei. He and Cersei don't love each other, but as a married couple they have each other whether they want that or not. Lyanna is dead as a result of Rhaegar's actions, so by similar logic Rhaegar has her whether Lyanna would want that or not.

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On 8/4/2019 at 2:39 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Robert contrasts the absence of Lyanna with the presence of Cersei. He and Cersei don't love each other, but as a married couple they have each other whether they want that or not. Lyanna is dead as a result of Rhaegar's actions, so by similar logic Rhaegar has her whether Lyanna would want that or not.

I don't find that an acceptable answer. Rhaegar-the-rapist doesn't 'have' his victim Lyanna-the-raped forever in the afterlife, especially not after he was killed by Robert, she was 'rescued' (her brother was with her when she died) and her bones lie in her family crypt in Winterfell.

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4 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't find that an acceptable answer. Rhaegar-the-rapist doesn't 'have' his victim Lyanna-the-raped forever in the afterlife, especially not after he was killed by Robert, she was 'rescued' (her brother was with her when she died) and her bones lie in her family crypt in Winterfell.

I actually think Robert viewed Lyanna as a possession rather than a person. The point is Rhaegar took her whether she wanted him or not.

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On 8/4/2019 at 6:01 PM, corbon said:

I don't find that an acceptable answer. Rhaegar-the-rapist doesn't 'have' his victim Lyanna-the-raped forever in the afterlife, especially not after he was killed by Robert, she was 'rescued' (her brother was with her when she died) and her bones lie in her family crypt in Winterfell.

Ned was too late. She died because of Rhaegar, despite Robert having already killed him. The conflict started with Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna. Viewed along that lens, Brandon and Rickard failed to obtain justice for her, and everyone who fought in their name after them also failed to correct the wrong that was done, even if Aerys and Rhaegar received punishment one way or another. Robert doesn't feel like he won, so by his logic Rhaegar must have.

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