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Corvinus

Ranking the commanders (TV show only)

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Ranking the main commanders based solely on what the show has given us.

1) Sansa Stark – by the end of the show, generally accepted to be the cleverest person in Westeros. She understands that logistics, not tactics, win a war in the end. With her in command, no army will ever be ill equipped or ill fed for any situation, nor would her forces rush into a battle without good preparation. She cleverly kept the approach of the Vale army a secret, as the northern commanders were quite unreliable with this information, thus taking Ramsay completely by surprise just as his victory seemed inevitable.

2) Ramsay Bolton – with 20 good men he sneaked into Stannis's camp, setting fire to a portion of it, resulting in Stannis losing much of his cavalry strength. He later defeated the rest of Stannis's army, who, without scouts, couldn't know Ramsay had prepared the entire Bolton horse to meet him in the open field. He conducted a dastardly strategy in his battle against the northern rebels led by Jon Snow, including good psychological warfare; however, the rapid march of the knights of the Vale, done in secrecy, was his undoing.

3) Euron Greyjoy – conceived the building of a huge armada on the rocky Iron Islands; he led this armada to a few resounding victories - first the ambush in a storm of his niece's fleet on the eastern side of Westeros, for which he was acclaimed in King's Landing; then he sailed his armada all around Westeros, catching the Targaryen fleet that had assailed Casterly Rock, by complete surprise; he once again showed his ability to hide from any scouting attempt when he caught the Targaryen fleet returning from White Harbor, just off Dragonstone; with an impressive arsenal of 500# scorpions, he killed a dragon, and obliterated entire ships. Unfortunately, Euron was a devout follower of the ideology "best defense is a good offense", because when it came to actual defense, his entire fleet was sunk by one dragon.

4) Robb Stark – outmaneuvered Tywin by sending 2000 of his men on a decoy attack, while he crossed into the Riverlands at The Twins, and successfully ambushed Jaime in the Whispering Wood. Later he would take the Lannisters by surprise again, at Oxcross, putting their army to rout. Afterwards, he marched his army all over the Riverlands, as he figured out his strategy, which was to take Casterly Rock by surprise, again. But losing political support required him to make a new deal with the Freys, by making a personal apology, and having his uncle marry one of Lord Walder’s daughters. So, he marched his army, again, from Riverrun to The Twins, with the plan of marching them all the way back and more to Casterly Rock, with Frey troops reinforcing him; this didn’t happen, as on the political side, Robb proved to be a total chump.

5) Tywin Lannister – an experienced battle commander, Tywin used his political acumen to bring an end to Robb Stark. On purely the military side, Tywin was forced to replace his scouts, after they reported to him he was about to face 20,000 northmen, when it was only a 10th of that. He established his base of operations at Harrenhal and continued to rely on his best (Ser Amory Lorch and Ser Gregor Clegane) in troubling the Riverlands. Tywin showed it pays to sit in one place in war, when he received news about the alliance with the Tyrells and Stannis’s impending attack on King’s Landing. He led the relief force for the city, handily defeating an already depleted and tired stormlander army, though Stannis managed to climb down from the walls and escape.

6) Daenerys Targaryen – thanks to her knowledge of a few languages of Essos, she was able to trick her enemies and win the support of many peoples. She burned Astapor, and with the help of her advisors she took Yunkai for a night, and then conquered Meereen, where she instigated a slave revolt. Once she arrived in Westeros, she decided listening to her advisors was more important than following her instincts, and suffered several defeats, until she took matters in her own hands, and defeated the Lannisters on the goldroad. Afterwards, she once again listened to her advisors, this time Jon Snow among them, as the battle plans were laid out to face the Night King, and then Cersei, again. Thankfully, her last dragon was the most experience in air-to-surface combat and destroyed the Lannister forces completely.

10) Stannis Baratheon – a renowned battle commander and a known disdainer of helmets, Stannis attacked King’s Landing via the sea at night. He entrusted noted warrior, Ser Davos Seaworth with leading the van of his fleet, but unfortunately, a ship filled with wildfire took out much of the fleet. Davos may have been able to spot the trick during the day, but in the misty night, it was impossible. After his defeat, Stannis temporarily abandoned his war for the Iron Throne, rushing to the aid of the Night’s Watch, with a pit stop in Braavos for money, sellswords, and horses, and caught the wildlings by surprise. As he marched south to face the Boltons, Stannis thought the forces he had were enough, and made no attempts to win over any of the northern houses; he was caught in a mild snowfall and was outmaneuvered and crushed by Ramsay.

13) The Night King - raised a huge army thanks to his magic. Routed the Night's Watch and the wildlings at Hardhome. Allowed for Dany to come rescue Jon so he could gain an important weapon, a dragon. Led his army to Winterfell where he barreled over the well-laid defenses of the living. Fell victim to classic villain behavior, by walking too slowly in the critical moment and linking all his minions to him, rather then letting them be independent. 

22) Jaime Lannister – began the War of the Five Kings with some victories over the riverlanders but was then ambushed and captured by Robb. Later, he was the main commander of Queen Cersei’s forces. He anticipated an attack by Daenerys’s armies on Casterly Rock, so he left the castle lightly defended, and moved to take Highgarden by surprise with the majority of his forces. His capture and humiliation by Robb taught him to never be caught by surprise again. He was caught by surprise in the open field by a huge Dothraki horde, and because of Daenerys and her dragon, soundly defeated, barely escaping with his life.

39) Tyrion Lannister – as Hand to Joffrey he bravely and cleverly led the defense of King’s Landing against Stannis. He used wildfire to destroy a significant portion of the enemy fleet and led a sortie to catch the enemy battering the gates unawares, but he then had to face the fury of the stormlanders, and the spite of a petty king. He was politically outmaneuvered by the Yunkish slave masters and had no military response to their attack on Meereen until Dany’s arrival. For this he was awarded with the title of Hand of the Queen. As Hand to Dany, he conceived the grand strategy of taking Westeros, which went poorly at first, despite of his knowledge of Casterly Rock’s latrine system. He continued to serve as Hand, all the way to the end of Dany’s reign, despite many other failures.

42) Jon Snow – was present at the battle of Castle Black, were he fought bravely, and held command of the Wall for about 5 minutes. As Lord Commander, he led a humanitarian mission to Hardhome, but he was forced to retreat in disarray by the Night King’s army. (He lost the chest of dragonglass, albeit it was low priority at the time). After being resurrected, and leaving the Night’s Watch, he joined Sansa to rally support against the Boltons. Thanks to his wartime experiences and his name, he became de facto commander of the army; he initially conceived a defensive approach to the battle but abandoned it in lieu of a brave 1 v. 1000 charge. He was aided in winning the battle against Ramsay, and thus avenging the Red Wedding that Ramsay perpetrated, by the surprise arrival of the Vale army. For this he was awarded by becoming King in the North. He later abandoned the title but remained Warden of the North. As Warden, he may have been, again, de facto commander of the allied armies of the living. He introduced innovative tactics to Westeros, by creating a deeply layered defense to Winterfell comprised of a line of artillery designed to funnel the enemy into the ranks of somewhat tight infantry, which in turn were held fast by a defensive ditch which was to be set on fire, while Winterfell’s wall was to be held by about a dozen archers. After what was nearly another defeat, adverted by Arya, Jon continued to serve as main commander of the allied armies, and agreed with the strategy to divide their forces as they approached King’s Landing. At King’s Landing he led his army within scorpion shot of the walls, and waited for Daenerys to blow up the gates.

Edited by Corvinus

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9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Is this a joke thread?

Honest question.

Like I said, based on what the show gave us, and this is what it gave us. :D Call it a mini-rant thread if you will.

Edited by Corvinus

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11 hours ago, The Baelish Mockingbird said:

You're skipping my boy Barristan Selmy. Why?

I'm trying to think what he commanded on the show. hmm... well in season 1 he (was) commanded to leave the premises, and he did in that style. I think in seasons 3 & 4 he mostly commanded the wine table in Dany's tent, and of course the badass death in season 5. So, not much to say about Barristan as a commander on the show.

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4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I'm trying to think what he commanded on the show. hmm... well in season 1 he (was) commanded to leave the premises, and he did in that style. I think in seasons 3 & 4 he mostly commanded the wine table in Dany's tent, and of course the badass death in season 5. So, not much to say about Barristan as a commander on the show.

Ah, we're going with the show version... should have been more apparent seeing as we're on the show forum... Ignore my stupidity.

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On 5/28/2019 at 9:40 PM, Corvinus said:

 

Fantastic!

Some more entries for your kind consideration:

Dothraki dude in charge during the 'Long' night:

While cleverly allowing Jorah to think he was in charge, this cunning Khal innovated a surprise night attack on magical beings who according to legend operate best in the dark (except at the Fist, at Hardhome and during the Wight hunt counter-attack when they attacked at day), undoubtedly thinking this is the last thing they would be expecting. Having been fortuitously equipped with burning arrakhs by a friendly magic lady popping by Winterfell for tea and bravely not bothering with any obsidian, he led the charge into the unknown in the traditional Dothraki style, with the impressive background music seeking to drown the war cries more reminiscent of wailing banshees being turned into Unsullied than anything else. For this he is fondly remembered by the producers as they cut the expense of hundreds of exotic looking extras and could just CGI up some lights in the dark. He is also appreciated by the fans as some of the money saved was splurged on a brief shot of Ghost (magically turned back into a direwolfpup or into a husky) accompanying the charge. It it unclear if this particular dude was re-spawned along with half of the Dothraki who died, were wightified and burnt by Drogon and Rhaegal in that battle.

Jamie Lannister and Randyll Tarly:

Two commanders with impeccable reputation, this dynamic duo absolutely routed the Tyrells commanded by Olenna fearlessly dictating tactics from her parlour. The only stronghold in Westeros named a garden rather than something fearsome like Casterly Rock, Storm's End, the Dreadfort or Winterfell, Highgarden was swiftly captured by these intrepid generals of men and quickly relieved of its gold. Unfortunately, on their way to King's Landing, having dispensed with mundaneness like scouts and outriders, the rearguard of this fearsome army, the rearguard alone numbering a few thousands, were set upon by a hundred thousand Dothraki screamers. As though this overwhelming numerical superiority were not enough, the enemy deployed a fully grown Dragon who spent several scenes setting the Lannisters and Tarlys ablaze en masse. As a testament to the commanders' abilities, several hundreds of their soldiers still managed to survive into the next episode to bend the knee to Daenerys Targaryen, though Randyll who once fought for her father against Robert, for some reason refused, preferring the equally mad Cersei.

Harry Strickland:

Ok, I'll leave this to someone else to do real justice, don't want to rush it.

 

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5 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

Harry Strickland:

Ok, I'll leave this to someone else to do real justice, don't want to rush it.

 

As honorable mention - Harry Strickland - he wisely understood the logistical and budgetary nightmare of bringing elephants to Westeros, so he kept them back. He is a man who learns from his adversaries and copies their methods and tactics. Like Scipio against Hannibal at Zama, Strickland was prepared to use Jon Snow's strategy against him, by marching the company outside the city walls to face the enemy in the open field. For Strickland had changed the Golden Company of old - there was no longer room for exiled knights, bravos, Summer Islanders with their great bows, or deadly crossbowmen from the Free Cities - he trained his men in the manner of the lockstep legions of Old Ghis to match the Unsullied. Unfortunately, he made two giant mistakes: 1) he entrusted the 2000 horse of the company to a drunkard, Jon Connington, who completely failed to show up, and 2) relied on his employer assisting in the battle. However, Cersei may have been miffed about the lack of elephants, so the scorpions on the city walls stayed silent (Strickland may have wanted to place them in front of his lines, to truly copy the northern stratagem, but Qyburn said that was pure idiocy, so nothing came of it)

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You're forgetting the other grand deeds of the best tactician in Westeros, King Stannis Baratheon, who didn't think to fortify Dragonstone when he left it, didn't think to leave a garrison at the Wall, and didn't station night guards capable of spotting resident ninja, Ser Twenty Goodmen. Then, lest we forget, two minutes away from Winterfell, he decides he's too snowed in, and so does the rational thing and burns his daughter to death to melt the snow. For bonus points, sending Davos to smuggle Melisandre and her shadow baby into Storm's End to assassinate Renly, who was camping in the open.

Then again, what do I know, he was just some ambitious prick according to D&D, not the man who held Storm's End through a siege and deflected the Greyjoy Fleet.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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14 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Strickland may have wanted to place them in front of his lines

Points should be awarded to Strickland for realizing - albeit two second before it happened - something’s wrong with Jon’s army not bringing siege weapons to the siege and that alternative means to breach the walls may be in place and instantly regretting he missed the lectures on Harren Hoare’s last book: “Achtung Dragons!” written on burnt clay tablets.

Edited by hewman

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On 5/28/2019 at 9:40 PM, Corvinus said:

Ranking the main commanders based solely on what the show has given us.

1) Sansa Stark – by the end of the show, generally accepted to be the cleverest person in Westeros. She understands that logistics, not tactics, win a war in the end. With her in command, no army will ever be ill equipped or ill fed for any situation, nor would her forces rush into a battle without good preparation. She cleverly kept the approach of the Vale army a secret, as the northern commanders were quite unreliable with this information, thus taking Ramsay completely by surprise just as his victory seemed inevitable.

2) Ramsay Bolton – with 20 good men he sneaked into Stannis's camp, setting fire to a portion of it, resulting in Stannis losing much of his cavalry strength. He later defeated the rest of Stannis's army, who, without scouts, couldn't know Ramsay had prepared the entire Bolton horse to meet him in the open field. He conducted a dastardly strategy in his battle against the northern rebels led by Jon Snow, including good psychological warfare; however, the rapid march of the knights of the Vale, done in secrecy, was his undoing.

3) Euron Greyjoy – conceived the building of a huge armada on the rocky Iron Islands; he led this armada to a few resounding victories - first the ambush in a storm of his niece's fleet on the eastern side of Westeros, for which he was acclaimed in King's Landing; then he sailed his armada all around Westeros, catching the Targaryen fleet that had assailed Casterly Rock, by complete surprise; he once again showed his ability to hide from any scouting attempt when he caught the Targaryen fleet returning from White Harbor, just off Dragonstone; with an impressive arsenal of 500# scorpions, he killed a dragon, and obliterated entire ships. Unfortunately, Euron was a devout follower of the ideology "best defense is a good offense", because when it came to actual defense, his entire fleet was sunk by one dragon.

4) Robb Stark – outmaneuvered Tywin by sending 2000 of his men on a decoy attack, while he crossed into the Riverlands at The Twins, and successfully ambushed Jaime in the Whispering Wood. Later he would take the Lannisters by surprise again, at Oxcross, putting their army to rout. Afterwards, he marched his army all over the Riverlands, as he figured out his strategy, which was to take Casterly Rock by surprise, again. But losing political support required him to make a new deal with the Freys, by making a personal apology, and having his uncle marry one of Lord Walder’s daughters. So, he marched his army, again, from Riverrun to The Twins, with the plan of marching them all the way back and more to Casterly Rock, with Frey troops reinforcing him; this didn’t happen, as on the political side, Robb proved to be a total chump.

5) Tywin Lannister – an experienced battle commander, Tywin used his political acumen to bring an end to Robb Stark. On purely the military side, Tywin was forced to replace his scouts, after they reported to him he was about to face 20,000 northmen, when it was only a 10th of that. He established his base of operations at Harrenhal and continued to rely on his best (Ser Amory Lorch and Ser Gregor Clegane) in troubling the Riverlands. Tywin showed it pays to sit in one place in war, when he received news about the alliance with the Tyrells and Stannis’s impending attack on King’s Landing. He led the relief force for the city, handily defeating an already depleted and tired stormlander army, though Stannis managed to climb down from the walls and escape.

6) Daenerys Targaryen – thanks to her knowledge of a few languages of Essos, she was able to trick her enemies and win the support of many peoples. She burned Astapor, and with the help of her advisors she took Yunkai for a night, and then conquered Meereen, where she instigated a slave revolt. Once she arrived in Westeros, she decided listening to her advisors was more important than following her instincts, and suffered several defeats, until she took matters in her own hands, and defeated the Lannisters on the goldroad. Afterwards, she once again listened to her advisors, this time Jon Snow among them, as the battle plans were laid out to face the Night King, and then Cersei, again. Thankfully, her last dragon was the most experience in air-to-surface combat and destroyed the Lannister forces completely.

10) Stannis Baratheon – a renowned battle commander and a known disdainer of helmets, Stannis attacked King’s Landing via the sea at night. He entrusted noted warrior, Ser Davos Seaworth with leading the van of his fleet, but unfortunately, a ship filled with wildfire took out much of the fleet. Davos may have been able to spot the trick during the day, but in the misty night, it was impossible. After his defeat, Stannis temporarily abandoned his war for the Iron Throne, rushing to the aid of the Night’s Watch, with a pit stop in Braavos for money, sellswords, and horses, and caught the wildlings by surprise. As he marched south to face the Boltons, Stannis thought the forces he had were enough, and made no attempts to win over any of the northern houses; he was caught in a mild snowfall and was outmaneuvered and crushed by Ramsay.

13) The Night King - raised a huge army thanks to his magic. Routed the Night's Watch and the wildlings at Hardhome. Allowed for Dany to come rescue Jon so he could gain an important weapon, a dragon. Led his army to Winterfell where he barreled over the well-laid defenses of the living. Fell victim to classic villain behavior, by walking too slowly in the critical moment and linking all his minions to him, rather then letting them be independent. 

22) Jaime Lannister – began the War of the Five Kings with some victories over the riverlanders but was then ambushed and captured by Robb. Later, he was the main commander of Queen Cersei’s forces. He anticipated an attack by Daenerys’s armies on Casterly Rock, so he left the castle lightly defended, and moved to take Highgarden by surprise with the majority of his forces. His capture and humiliation by Robb taught him to never be caught by surprise again. He was caught by surprise in the open field by a huge Dothraki horde, and because of Daenerys and her dragon, soundly defeated, barely escaping with his life.

39) Tyrion Lannister – as Hand to Joffrey he bravely and cleverly led the defense of King’s Landing against Stannis. He used wildfire to destroy a significant portion of the enemy fleet and led a sortie to catch the enemy battering the gates unawares, but he then had to face the fury of the stormlanders, and the spite of a petty king. He was politically outmaneuvered by the Yunkish slave masters and had no military response to their attack on Meereen until Dany’s arrival. For this he was awarded with the title of Hand of the Queen. As Hand to Dany, he conceived the grand strategy of taking Westeros, which went poorly at first, despite of his knowledge of Casterly Rock’s latrine system. He continued to serve as Hand, all the way to the end of Dany’s reign, despite many other failures.

42) Jon Snow – was present at the battle of Castle Black, were he fought bravely, and held command of the Wall for about 5 minutes. As Lord Commander, he led a humanitarian mission to Hardhome, but he was forced to retreat in disarray by the Night King’s army. (He lost the chest of dragonglass, albeit it was low priority at the time). After being resurrected, and leaving the Night’s Watch, he joined Sansa to rally support against the Boltons. Thanks to his wartime experiences and his name, he became de facto commander of the army; he initially conceived a defensive approach to the battle but abandoned it in lieu of a brave 1 v. 1000 charge. He was aided in winning the battle against Ramsay, and thus avenging the Red Wedding that Ramsay perpetrated, by the surprise arrival of the Vale army. For this he was awarded by becoming King in the North. He later abandoned the title but remained Warden of the North. As Warden, he may have been, again, de facto commander of the allied armies of the living. He introduced innovative tactics to Westeros, by creating a deeply layered defense to Winterfell comprised of a line of artillery designed to funnel the enemy into the ranks of somewhat tight infantry, which in turn were held fast by a defensive ditch which was to be set on fire, while Winterfell’s wall was to be held by about a dozen archers. After what was nearly another defeat, adverted by Arya, Jon continued to serve as main commander of the allied armies, and agreed with the strategy to divide their forces as they approached King’s Landing. At King’s Landing he led his army within scorpion shot of the walls, and waited for Daenerys to blow up the gates.

Darwin awards all around!

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13 hours ago, Rubicante said:

In terms of commanders, how does that wildling who charges Stannis at 2:14 of this video rank in the best commander list?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=difPkqg1lO8

I feel like that wildling was a commander of his own mind.

More or less the same level as Jon Snow. Jon was there to cut off the snake's head, Mance. That man attempted the same. I'd say he had about as much sense as Jon, but more honor, since Jon was doing subterfuge. Likely could have done no worse had he survived and creatively be named King/Warden of the North.

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On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

1) Sansa Stark – by the end of the show, generally accepted to be the cleverest person in Westeros. She understands that logistics, not tactics, win a war in the end. With her in command, no army will ever be ill equipped or ill fed for any situation

I don't think she is a good commander, just a good Queen having an army with a commander at her disposal. She probably will make a good ruler, but not a commander. She lacks all kinds of military skills.

I accept we are supposed to believe in her as smart and she will plan wisely. That does not mean she is any kind of military commander.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

2) Ramsay Bolton

A bastard usurping a Lord's title, more or less. One battle. he has balls, he has brain, he is tough. But an excellent commander? That required more experience with commanding and battling, I suppose. The only real battle he ever fought he lost and died.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

5) Tywin Lannister – an experienced battle commander, Tywin used his political acumen

He is the best commander we saw. A lot of military experience, political knowledge, and a charismatic, dominant character.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

4) Robb Stark

He had to learn on-the-go and did quite well. By common sense, good preparation and a bit of luck. He did well, but he was not an experienced commander. He made some decision, but he had his real commanders backing him up.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

6) Daenerys Targaryen

She's a wannabe queen and needs her commanders to do the job, like Grey Worm. Daenerys is not a military commander. She has close to zero knowledge about military. That's OK for a queen. She needs to gives orders, not the military commander executing her orders.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

22) Jaime Lannister

He and Tarly did quite well with Highgarden. Jaime also did well with Riverrun. He is the son of Tywin and has a lot of knowledge and experience.

Probably the second best commander after Tywin.

On 5/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, Corvinus said:

42) Jon Snow

His big advantage appears to be his charisma to induce loyalty and unite people. This can be considered part of ruling or being commander. His military commander experience is limited though, he is a better sword fighter than commander. He survives by a lot of luck and stumbles into a lot of problems other might have seen.

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

He and Tarly did quite well with Highgarden. Jaime also did well with Riverrun. He is the son of Tywin and has a lot of knowledge and experience.

Probably the second best commander after Tywin.

You know, I've mostly made this as a joke thread, but you have made the biggest joke here so far.

But if you want, lets get a little more serious:

2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

I don't think she is a good commander, just a good Queen having an army with a commander at her disposal. She probably will make a good ruler, but not a commander. She lacks all kinds of military skills.

She's a wannabe queen and needs her commanders to do the job, like Grey Worm. Daenerys is not a military commander. She has close to zero knowledge about military. That's OK for a queen. She needs to gives orders, not the military commander executing her orders.

I listed a bunch of major characters, and specifically said "main commanders" so, technically Dany does qualify. Unlike, say the POTUS in our times, who is commander-in-chief of the US military but doesn't lead armies in the field, a medieval monarch could be considered a commander, since they often literally went into the field. And Daenerys did that more than once. I didn't care so much about the secondary commanders, like Grey Worm, Daario, Tormund and so on. I'm not opposed to analyzing them, btw, just didn't do so now. 

Sansa is #1 because of the reasons I listed. Out of all the characters, she is the only one who gave a damn about logistical concerns. For someone without any actual military experience, that's pretty good.

What I did with my list was give a rundown of what the show actually showed us, not what it told us, or what it can be interpreted with character backgrounds. On the other hand, your arguments are full of interpretation, much like how Tormund or Davos continuously exalt Jon, in opposition to what Jon really does. Jaime is good because he's Tywin's son, Ramsay is a bastard, therefore he lacks experience, and he lost the one battle he fought. (He actually fought two big battles, handily winning the first, and losing the second because of plot and stuff). Ramsay has shown he's got knowledge of a plethora of battle tactics.

There’s a reason I didn’t list Roose Bolton, despite him rising to Warden of the North status. The dude’s been around for a while, so you could say he has experience, but in the show, he barely did a thing. (see my above comments about Barristan) His councils with Robb were mainly about what was happening at Winterfell. Unlike in the books, he didn’t lead the decoy army against Tywin (give that dude a medal, posthumously, as he made 2000 men look like 20k), he didn’t take Harrenhal by trickery. He let Ramsay do all the fighting and even the planning against Stannis.

Jaime won at Highgarden thanks to a bunch of writing choices designed to make his opponents look bad: Tyrion making dumb decisions, and according to Olenna, because the Tyrells were never great fighters (Loras who?) Book Jaime, when he leaves KL to lift the siege at Riverrun, proceeds to have scouts out early on, because he won't be taken by surprise again. Show Jaime doesn't learn a thing apparently, and is taken by surprise in the open field by the largest living army in Westeros at the time.

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I've seen attempts at a serious thread quickly turn into jokes/heavy sarcasm this Season, but the other way round is a first :lmao:

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21 minutes ago, Ser Hedge said:

I've seen attempts at a serious thread quickly turn into jokes/heavy sarcasm this Season, but the other way round is a first :lmao:

Ffs, I had such a great time wondering how people are still defending such tragic stupidity.

Ser TwentyMen. Hah. Why didn’t he go shirtless that time as well?

I guess if mini badass Lyanna Mormont had sneered at him he'd have scurried on right back behind walls.

Can we give Renly a ribbon for effort? He got a pretty decent force together. And he called Stannis a ham. That was a high point for me. Shame about the shadow baby.

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