Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

16 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Tyrion: I am taking their side. You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively and beat them

How'd that work out for Tyrion?

Oh, yeah, it didn't.

Wait...

He did work out how to convince Jon to kill her by highlighting the credible threat to his sisters when the mere notion of her conquest was failing.

And it did work in knowing Daenerys would allow Jon close even when fully armed, showing she trusted him

Well, hello Cynical Tyrion, where'd you go? 

Unfortunately, he was gone again by the trial scene.

We're shown he's a shit politician when he believes.

 

 

[RYShh]

5 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Well, I'm a Norwegian guy living in the 21st Century, and not exactly the biggest fan of the death penalty, but if I try to set all of that aside and see things from the perspective of the characters who exist in Planetos, my answer would be that beheading seems like a better method of execution than dragonfire.

Yeah, that's my point. Plenty of people would do that as well, such as Jon or Tyrion.

[RYShh]

12 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Capturing Casterly Rock, which was worthless;  capturing a wight, which almost caused Jon to be killed, almost caused Dany to be killed, and cost her Viserion;  organising a parley with Cersei which led to Cersei betraying them;  holding a second parley with Cersei which ended with Missandei being beheaded.  The most charitable interpretation of Tyrion's actions is that he has a belief in Cersei's innate goodness which is utterly unfounded (and absurd, given her treatment of him).

Even if Cersei had escaped Kings Landing via a secret passage, the city would have surrendered in her absence.

How do you know Cersei will leave the city? She could hide in anywhere inside the city, and his men would keep fighting, still city would be nearly destroyed and plenty of people would die,

There was no need for a slaughter or risk it in a battle.

Capturing a wight was also necessary for Daenerys, as she said she didn't believe it until she saw it. 

Tyrion made tactical mistakes, but strategically he was right.

[Lord Stackspear]

I’m sorry, but if you want to establish that Daenerys was beginning to lose it, burning the Tarly’s after refusing to bend the knee is not a good example. Would the honorable Ned Stark not have executed lords who refused to bend the knee to Robert Baratheon or refused to be sent to the wall after committing treason?  Ned Stark executed a deserter from the NIght’s Watch and wanted Jorah’s head for selling to slaver’s.  Dany could have taken the Tarly’s prisoner, but, as she noted, if that was offered as an option, many would take it.  I guess that stands in contrast to Robb Stark who told his men to build more pens for Lannister prisoners, and we all saw how well his gentle, loving heart worked out for him.  Dany’s execution of the Tarly’s was completely consistent with Westerosi ethics.  

Now, as others have said, if the Tarly’s demanded a battle by combat, and Dany, said, ok, fire is the champion of House Targaryen, see if you can best it - that would have been a sign of her starting to go mad.  

[RYShh]

18 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

I'm sorry but it matters. It's the difference between the guillotine and the jihadist's butcher's knife. 

So you would prefer to throw people into a volcano instead of beheading them? Is that what you're saying?

[random girl from westeros]

Dany as Mad Queen within the context of the show is a bad Idea, I suspected she wasn't going to sit in the Iron Thrones but I thought it was going to be something else. She dying in battle or birthing a child. After all, life for a life, she lost Drogo and Rhaego to have her three dragons. I thought that she losing Viserion and Rhaegal and ultimately her own life will return her child.  I can see Jon mourning her death as he takes care of the child and since Varys sent all those letters to the Lords of Westeros, he would be crown King, not because he wanted it, but because the people will look for a good leader. He would fulfill Dany's wishes to break the wheel.  End feudalism. perhaps he will make laws to protect the smallfolk and educate them. He will have Gendry and Davos in the small council, who were poor and understand the perils of not having a title or education. 

 

[Nowy Tends]

26 minutes ago, RYShh said:

So you would prefer to throw people into a volcano instead of beheading them? Is that what you're saying?

 Are you seriously deducting this from my last sentence? I'm speechless…

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

43 minutes ago, RYShh said:

I used the wrong word, I was going to say ''wasn't raised in Westeros'',

She had allies thanks to Lannisters. Dorne and Highgarden all choose to follow her because they hate Lannisters, otherwise they wouldn't care less.

There is a reason why her advisers started to betray her one by one. 

An alliance made to bring down a common enemy is still an alliance. 

Was Yara Greyjoy siding with Daenerys because of the Lannisters too?

Her advisers showed tremendous ineptitude as far as we're shown.

She lost allies to betrayal and ambush and her council had no infirmation?

I guess the Tarlys gathered an army and joined with Lannister forces and marched on Highgraden faster than a raven flies? 

I guess they forgot about Urine too. No one ever sees the Iron Fleet.

Tyrion makes no move to find more allies? To negotiate with others?

So yes they betrayed her, by not doing their job.

If it's that easy, almost comedic, to offer the Reach to any old Joe, I guess that's a pretty good way to start treating with possible allies.

But no, in one episode, they are down to 'armies of savages' and that's that.

Then we need to introduce AragornLight, he of the pretty looks and vapid cow eyes, as a romantic interest.

We need to go beyond the Wall to ensure the damn thing falls.

Political maneuvers are stupid and unappealing. Might even complicate the storyline.

 

[RYShh]

12 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

 Are you seriously deducting this from my last sentence? I'm speechless…

Sorry, I didn't understand what your point is.

Burning is unnecessary and too harsh when she could behead them or keep them as prisoners.

[Dragonslack]

It was their only idea, so...

[The One Who Kneels]

34 minutes ago, Lord Stackspear said:

I’m sorry, but if you want to establish that Daenerys was beginning to lose it, burning the Tarly’s after refusing to bend the knee is not a good example. Would the honorable Ned Stark not have executed lords who refused to bend the knee to Robert Baratheon or refused to be sent to the wall after committing treason?  Ned Stark executed a deserter from the NIght’s Watch and wanted Jorah’s head for selling to slaver’s.  Dany could have taken the Tarly’s prisoner, but, as she noted, if that was offered as an option, many would take it.  I guess that stands in contrast to Robb Stark who told his men to build more pens for Lannister prisoners, and we all saw how well his gentle, loving heart worked out for him.  Dany’s execution of the Tarly’s was completely consistent with Westerosi ethics.  

Now, as others have said, if the Tarly’s demanded a battle by combat, and Dany, said, ok, fire is the champion of House Targaryen, see if you can best it - that would have been a sign of her starting to go mad.  

I agree with you overall but there's no contrast between what Robb and Daenerys did. Robb was fighting to be independent of course he was going to hold nobles from other regions for ransom/exchange. They weren't sworn to the King in the North. Lords sworn to Winterfell who fought against the Starks would absolutely get the same set of options that Daenerys gave the Tarlys. Remember when Robb threatened to hang the Greatjon as an oathbreaker if he went home?

The Tarlys were sworn to the Iron Throne. They have to bend the knee to Daenerys who is claiming the Iron Throne. Holding them prisoner would've just deferred death or the wall to a later date. It is absurd to claim that Daenerys should've put the Tarlys in the cells to rethink their actions after Randyll rejected both offers of mercy and Dickon literally volunteered to die. In a sensible world no one would be shocked or concerned that Daenerys executed the Tarlys they'd be wondering why the Tarlys were both complete idiots who chose to commit suicide for Cersei Lannister. 

[Lord Stackspear]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

I agree with you overall but there's no contrast between what Robb and Daenerys did. Robb was fighting to be independent of course he was going to hold nobles from other regions for ransom/exchange. They weren't sworn to the King in the North. Lords sworn to Winterfell who fought against the Starks would absolutely get the same set of options that Daenerys gave the Tarlys. Remember when Robb threatened to hang the Greatjon as an oathbreaker if he went home?

The Tarlys were sworn to the Iron Throne. They have to bend the knee to Daenerys who is claiming the Iron Throne. Holding them prisoner would've just deferred death or the wall to a later date. It is absurd to claim that Daenerys should've put the Tarlys in the cells to rethink their actions after Randyll rejected both offers of mercy and Dickon literally volunteered to die. In a sensible world no one would be shocked or concerned that Daenerys executed the Tarlys they'd be wondering why the Tarlys were both complete idiots who chose to commit suicide for Cersei Lannister. 

Excellent points.  Couldn’t agree more.  The penalty for treason is death in Westeros as demonstrated time and time again.  Indeed, the Tarly’s had bent knee (as every lord in Westeros had done) to House Targaryen prior to bending the knee to House Baratheon/Lannister.   As far as anyone knows at this point, Dany is the heir to the IT and House Targaryen and so anyone who refuses to bend the knee has committed treason whether that be because of the general pledge to the IT or because of the prior pledge to the Targaryen dynasty.  

[RYShh]

2 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

I agree with you overall but there's no contrast between what Robb and Daenerys did. Robb was fighting to be independent of course he was going to hold nobles from other regions for ransom/exchange. They weren't sworn to the King in the North. Lords sworn to Winterfell who fought against the Starks would absolutely get the same set of options that Daenerys gave the Tarlys. Remember when Robb threatened to hang the Greatjon as an oathbreaker if he went home?

The Tarlys were sworn to the Iron Throne. They have to bend the knee to Daenerys who is claiming the Iron Throne. Holding them prisoner would've just deferred death or the wall to a later date. It is absurd to claim that Daenerys should've put the Tarlys in the cells to rethink their actions after Randyll rejected both offers of mercy and Dickon literally volunteered to die. In a sensible world no one would be shocked or concerned that Daenerys executed the Tarlys they'd be wondering why the Tarlys were both complete idiots who chose to commit suicide for Cersei Lannister. 

But Daenerys didn't have the Iron Throne, Lannisters had. So of course she needed allies and hostages like Robb needed. Otherwise there was no point in waiting, she should've attacked the KL directly. 

As Randyll said, she wasn't his Queen, and they didn't swear any fealty to Daenerys, so their execution reason can't be betrayal,

while Robb executed Rickard Karstark for betrayal and he would do the same to Greatjon.

[Lord Stackspear]

On the brutality of fire execution point, I can see some room for disagreement as to whether that was more harsh than was necessary, but personally, I always saw it as much more consistent with the Stark ethic that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.  Drogon is effectively Dany’s sword - she passed the sentence, and she figuratively swung her sword.    

[Minsc]

50 minutes ago, RYShh said:

So you would prefer to throw people into a volcano instead of beheading them? Is that what you're saying?

What makes beheading someone more merciful? We have seen through Theon and Book:Robb that beheading isn't always some quick easy death. 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Burning is unnecessary and too harsh when she could behead them or keep them as prisoners

Considering they've just participated in sacking the House they were vassals to and refused an offer of mercy?

But lets focus on the method of execution.

And her army, her remaining, present army, are dothraki.

To the Westerosi, execution by fire will equate her with the Mad King.

To the Dothraki, asking one of them to take her kill, what would it show them?

Can Daenerys swing a broadsword over her head?

[Sarah Michelle Gellar]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

[snip]

I'm not familiar with Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[snip]

Blasphemy.

[RYShh]

13 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

An alliance made to bring down a common enemy is still an alliance. 

Was Yara Greyjoy siding with Daenerys because of the Lannisters too?

Her advisers showed tremendous ineptitude as far as we're shown.

She lost allies to betrayal and ambush and her council had no infirmation?

I guess the Tarlys gathered an army and joined with Lannister forces and marched on Highgraden faster than a raven flies? 

I guess they forgot about Urine too. No one ever sees the Iron Fleet.

Tyrion makes no move to find more allies? To negotiate with others?

So yes they betrayed her, by not doing their job.

If it's that easy, almost comedic, to offer the Reach to any old Joe, I guess that's a pretty good way to start treating with possible allies.

But no, in one episode, they are down to 'armies of savages' and that's that.

Then we need to introduce AragornLight, he of the pretty looks and vapid cow eyes, as a romantic interest.

We need to go beyond the Wall to ensure the damn thing falls.

Political maneuvers are stupid and unappealing. Might even complicate the storyline.

 

Yara went to Daenerys because they wanted to escape from Euron Greyjoy. So they went to Daenerys before Euron could, so they could save their lives.

Basically, Daenerys did nothing to gain any allies, Dorne and Highgarden sided with her because they hate Lannisters, and Yara sided with Daenerys because of Euron.

[Lord Stackspear]

2 minutes ago, RYShh said:

But Daenerys didn't have the Iron Throne, Lannisters had. So of course she needed allies and hostages like Robb needed. Otherwise there was no point in waiting, she should've attacked the KL directly. 

As Randyll said, she wasn't his Queen, and they didn't swear any fealty to Daenerys, so their execution reason can't be betrayal,

while Robb executed Rickard Karstark for betrayal and he would do the same to Greatjon.

I guess you can debate whether she still needed allies - the show didn’t really get into that - certainly is no evidence that she needed additional allies at this point in the game or that the Tarly’s as hostage would have brought any additional allies.  

Was every lord in Westeros not at one time pledged to House Targaryen?  Isn’t Dany just returning to Westeros to enforce the pledge every lord gave her father?  By bending the knee to Robert Baratheon and then Cersei, they had all committed treason against the rightful heir to the IT (at least from the perspective of the last known living Targaryen).

I’m pretty sure Robb Stark would have said he was executing Richard Karstark for treason - the treason of disobeying the King’s orders.  I also believe Richard Karstark’s last words were, “you’re no king of mine.”  Not sure how you can differentiate that from Dany executing lords who refuse to bend the knee and abide by the pledge they had given her family for 300 years.    

[Einheri]

1 hour ago, Caligula_K3 said:

Yet still everyone but Jon distrusts her; a really instructive scene is in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms,  when Theon returns and she is initially happy, only for it to be revealed that his loyalty to and love for Sansa and the Starks is much deeper. She's a stranger and foreigner, no matter what she does. And then when she finds out her destiny as the last true Targaryen is a lie... and when she sees the respect and love Jon has... and when she sees that the people of King's Landing aren't crying out for her to save them from Cersei, she decides fear is the answer.

Except I don't believe they actually showed us that any northerner not named Arya or Sansa Stark were still distrustful of her after they had defeated the WWs, which is actually one of the more realistic aspects of this season since very few people are going to be ungrateful towards the person who came to their aid against a frickin' army of ice zombies. In fact, I actually got the opposite impression, as there was a scene with a room full of Westerosi happily toasting the Dragon Queen, and then later we also hear that two Westerosi houses are reaffirming their loyalty to House Targaryen. Relationship issues aside, things seemed to be going upwards for Dany up until the diabolus ex machina incident with Euron happened.

But Dany claims that no one loves her, and for some reason she is mad about Jon being popular among northmen and free folk, Theon showing more affection towards a member of his foster family, and that the civilian population of KL, who know pretty much nothing about her, are more worried about finding a safe place to hide during a battle... makes little sense to me tbh.