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Tyrion1991

Dany the Mad Queen was a terrible idea

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2 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

nobody ever said that Daenerys was the only character that shows crualty in Got.... Arya is pretty f****ed up....
But only Daenerys has dragons and the power to murder thousands of peoples in a few minutes....

Arya is cruel to the people who killed her family, as well as Sansa was cruel to Ramsay due to same reason. 

Burning the witch that poisoned Daenerys's husband? Yeah, it's ok, it was a revenge kill. But burning the Tarlys was completely unnecessary.

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2 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Arya is cruel to the people who killed her family, as well as Sansa was cruel to Ramsay due to same reason. 

Burning the witch that poisoned Daenerys's husband? Yeah, it's ok, it was a revenge kill. But burning the Tarlys was completely unnecessary.

yeah, she had reasons, but she's pretty f****ed up anyway.... Arya would be a bad ruler... fortunately, unlike Daenerys, she is not at all interested in ruling anybody

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5 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Yeah kind of, they could still keep them as prisoners, at least the son if not father, or at least they could behead them, burning is too harsh. Even Jon stopped Mance Rayder's burning execution by shooting him through the heart with an arrow.

But

1/ Randyll Tarly insults Daenerys, it's barely if he doesn't call her a foreign whore. What did he expect? Mercy?

2/ If we follow the show's logic, Drogon' s fire should killed an human in less than one second, since it can blow up brick buildings… It has nothing to do with slowly burning onto a pyre…

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3 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Arya is cruel to the people who killed her family, as well as Sansa was cruel to Ramsay due to same reason. 

Burning the witch that poisoned Daenerys's husband? Yeah, it's ok, it was a revenge kill. But burning the Tarlys was completely unnecessary.

The Tarlys were 'small fry' compared to the sacking of Kings Landing. No pun intended. would it have been better had she simply beheaded them? It doesn't strike me as morally egregious by the shows (sometimes unsure) standards.

Danaerys is first and foremost an imperialist. And in modern times imperialism is viewed as unquestionably evil. To a medieval society, it is par the course in times of war. I remember how Cersei spoke about the potential sacking of kings landing in Blackwater, talking about being raped with such dettachment. Compare that to the sacking depicted in The Bells which attempts to show the brutality from a more modern moral standpoint. Like two different shows entirely.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

But

1/ Randyll Tarly insults Daenerys, it's barely if he doesn't call her a foreign whore. What did he expect? Mercy?

2/ If we follow the show's logic, Drogon' s fire should killed an human in less than one second, since it can blow up brick buildings… It has nothing to do with slowly burning onto a pyre…

Randyll Tarly explained his reasons, he didn't insult her. Daenerys wasn't raised in Westeros and she came with an army of savages, how is that an insult? And he only said this after Tyrion's questioned his loyalty to Cersei.

The temperature shouldn't matter. Throwing someone into a volcano would be even quicker than that, but they still burn.

Edited by RYShh
wrong choice of word

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Posted (edited)
54 minutes ago, beeeeeen said:

First, you don't know how much they've changed G.R.R Martin's story thematics, yes they have changed a lot of details, removed some storylines, combined some characters, "butchered" some others (i am not using this word in a pejorative way, but i think everybody will agree that, for example, show Euron has nothing to do with book Euron... i am not saying it's a bad thing, nor i'm saying it's a good thing, but yeah, show Euron is nowhere near as interesting as his book counterpart) but the thematic may have been perfectly respected by Benioff and Weiss... or not... i don't know yet, and you don't either, and anyone who pretend otherwise is just disingenuous.

I very much doubt that the thematic can possibly be respected by a pair of knuckleheads who think that themes are for 8th grade book reports.

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The White Walkers did not end up being a joke, they were a threat, something that made the "game of throne" pointless in the eyes of any sensible character within the show, but this great war was not what the show was about, that's it. The show was about mankind, about what peoples do to other peoples, how the power corrupt us, what is a good ruler, what is not... the white walkers were basically the writers telling us "ok, in an ideal world, all these conflicts about who is on the throne would be forgotten and people would unit because there is something that threaten us all... unfortunately, mankind is not perfect, and once the threat will be done with, they will start again their little game of power"

They were a joke since a teenage assassin's school dropout was able to take down their entire army. It  was literally the most boring and anticlimactic way they could possibly have resolved this conflict, and it also lessened the impact of seeing all of the humans go back to their old habits after  the threat had been dealt with since the threat ended up being a joke. Dany would have been better off if she had simply laughed in Jonno's stupid face, before flying off to burn down the Red Keep.

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Yeah "ambition is bad" is a "trope" but where the show was clever with that trope, is that it used two versions of it, a classical one, with Littlefinger, and a more subtle one with Daenerys. Everybody could see that Littlefinger was only driven by his ambition, but few peoples saw that Daenerys was too, because we were caught in her messiah complex.

It wasn't only the viewers. The show itself was caught in her Messiah complex until they decided to turn her into the devil in the second to last episode.

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And yeah, despite the show telling us that birthright is wrong, the show ended with Sansa ruling the north, and i see no problem with that... Tyrion understood what was wrong with birthright, Tyrion had a lot of discussion with Varys that helped him to... Sansa had not... Not everything has to end well, after all it was supposed to be a bittersweet ending...

Westeros is pretty much the same it's always been except now the hereditary rulers of the various kingdoms get to decide which among them should be king. Birthright still decides your social standing and polical influence. There is no real change, and the potential for future conflicts is perhaps even greater than before. Yet Tyrion sees no problems with this, I guess, because he's still the dumbass he's been for several seasons now.

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And finally, in Essos, Daenerys was doing good things, but it was not really for good reasons, she was not, in the beginning, driven by the will to make the world a better place. Remember season 1, she is with her Khalassar and she doesn't mind them pillage villages, yes, she asks them not to rape and kill every women, but that's it...

When Drogo talks about killing westerosis and destroy their houses, she doesn't seem to be disgusted at the idea... What happen then is that she frees the unsullieds, not because she wants to free them, but because she needs an army and cannot pay for it. After that, when she realises that her soldiers love her because she freed them, she start freeing other peoples, slaves, mainly because she loves being loved... and in Essos, she gains the support of those who follow her... until she comes to westeros, where she does nothing to gain the love and support of the peoples, she just demands it, because she is blinded by her birthright. And that's her downfall, she thinks peoples should love her when they have no reason to, quite the opposite, she is coming with dragons, with foreign armies, and with a claim based on her father, who was the Mad King...
Daenerys should have stayed in Essos, where she had something to offer

So, while in Essos, Dany realized that she had to put in the effort to make her people love her, but now that she's in Westeros she just goes "f*ck it.... burn them all to there's no one left to love me". Again,  that makes little sense, and we needed more setup to make this change believable... time D&D weren't willing to give themselves, so they should have avoided it altogether.

Edited by Einheri

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56 minutes ago, RYShh said:

 

Yeah kind of, they could still keep them as prisoners, at least the son if not father, or at least they could behead them, burning is too harsh. Even Jon stopped Mance Rayder's burning execution by shooting him through the heart with an arrow.

 

She probably should have gone with a more conventional style of execution, if only because it would probably be better for her image ("I'm not like my father who burned men alive"). That said, being burned at the stake seemed to be a much more drawn out process than being exposed to a constant stream of dragonfire.

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Dany's inclination was to be merciful to the Tarlys.  They did rather talk her into killing them.

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3 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

I call this BS. It's so well depicted that several main characters are flabbergasted during the table reading; Kit H. is about to burst into tears… Emilia said approx. "it came from nowhere" in interviews… 

Yes, and that says a lot of how actors understand their roles. Tragic. 

2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It was a completely thematically fitting choice for me to have Dany do what she did in episode 5. The corrupting nature of power is what the show has been about from the beginning, and although the pacing was rushed, I'm not even someone who believes the execution was flawed.

True.

2 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

This part of Dany's character has been there from season 2, and there were many times in seasons 4-6 where her actions were morally uncomfortable, but got a pass because she was punishing/killing slavers. Once season 7 hit and she got to Westeros and it was clear that she was uncompromising about getting the throne, with her advisors constantly having to ask her not to burn King's Landing or burn alive POWs, the shift was all the more clear. And it would have been a major cop out, in my opinion, to have her remain the "good guy."

Exactly this.

 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Einheri said:

She probably should have gone with a more conventional style of execution, if only because it would probably be better for her image ("I'm not like my father who burned men alive"). That said, being burned at the stake seemed to be a much more drawn out process than being exposed to a constant stream of dragonfire.

Or she could listen Tyrion, which imo he was right.

''Tyrion: And you've been known to lose your temper from time to time. - As all our great leaders do -

Daenerys: When have I lost my temper?

Tyrion: Burning the Tarlys for instance. 

Daenerys: That was not impulsive. That was necessary.

Tyrion: Perhaps the father needed to die and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate the mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. We had no time to discuss the possibilities before you ended their possibilities.

Daenerys: One can be forgiven for thinking you're taking your family's side in this debate.

Tyrion: I am taking their side. You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively and beat them. Which I want you to do very much. Because I believe in you and the world you want to build. But the world you want to build doesn't get built all at once.'' 

Edited by RYShh

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7 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Or she could listen Tyrion, which imo he was right.

''Tyrion: And you've been known to lose your temper from time to time. - As all our great leaders do -

Daenerys: When have I lost my temper?

Tyrion: Burning the Tarlys for instance. That was not impulsive.

Daenerys: That was necessary.

Tyrion: Perhaps the father needed to die and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate the mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. We had no time to discuss the possibilities before you ended their possibilities.

Daenerys: One can be forgiven for thinking you're taking your family's side in this debate.

Tyrion: I am taking their side. You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively and beat them. Which I want you to do very much. Because I believe in you and the world you want to build. But the world you want to build doesn't get built all at once.'' 

Tyrion's advice to her in Westeros was terrible.  Had she followed her own instincts, and blitzed the Red Keep at the outset, the war against Cersei would have ended in 30 minutes, at a fraction of the number of casualties.  

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9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany's inclination was to be merciful to the Tarlys.  They did rather talk her into killing them.

Yes, for some odd reason the Tarlys decided to be suicidally loyal to the woman who should be the most hated person in Westeros (yes, even more so than Dany after she burned down the rest of KL). 

2 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Or she could listen Tyrion, which imo he was right.

''Tyrion: And you've been known to lose your temper from time to time. - As all our great leaders do -

Daenerys: When have I lost my temper?

Tyrion: Burning the Tarlys for instance. That was not impulsive.

Daenerys: That was necessary.

Tyrion: Perhaps the father needed to die and not the son. Perhaps they both needed time to contemplate the mistakes in the solitude of a cold cell. We had no time to discuss the possibilities before you ended their possibilities.

Daenerys: One can be forgiven for thinking you're taking your family's side in this debate.

Tyrion: I am taking their side. You need to take your enemy's side if you're going to see things the way they do. And you need to see things the way they do if you're going to anticipate their actions, respond effectively and beat them. Which I want you to do very much. Because I believe in you and the world you want to build. But the world you want to build doesn't get built all at once.'' 

The St. Tyrion character on the show is an idiot. Dany was about as lenient with the Tarlys as she she possibly could have been without appearing as a complete pushover. When the Tarlys decided to spit in her face after she offered them a full pardon or a trip to the Wall, they pretty much doomed themselves.

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4 minutes ago, Einheri said:

Yes, for some odd reason the Tarlys decided to be suicidally loyal to the woman who should be the most hated person in Westeros (yes, even more so than Dany after she burned down the rest of KL). 

The St. Tyrion character on the show is an idiot. Dany was about as lenient with the Tarlys as she she possibly could have been without appearing as a complete pushover. When the Tarlys decided to spit in her face after she offered them a full pardon or a trip to the Wall, they pretty much doomed themselves.

So what would you do? Burning them with dragonfire?

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9 minutes ago, RYShh said:

. Daenerys wasn't born in Westeros

Independent Republic of Dragonstone?

Daenerys could be accused of not being raised in Westerosi traditions, yes.

And she had Westerosi allies which she'd chosen to use in her campaign despite the urging of the likes of Olenna Tyrell.

Until the Tarlys and other Reach Lords went and had a little convo with Cersei's propaganda department and started practicing their sums.

Highgarden out, Hornhill in?

Her Dornish allies were slaughtered or imprisoned.

 Yara Greyjoy's claim and fleet destroyed or taken by Urine.

It was a very Lannister moment for Cersei. And a very stupod moment for Tyrion.

Also, did all those troop movements just happen too fast for Varys to know about?

Daenerys is then truly reduced to foreign armies, while trying to stop the caravan carrying the loot from the sack of Highgarden.

So Randyll Tarly is participating in and profiting from the betrayal and slaughter of the House he was a vassal of (Bolton and Stark anyone?).

But just the same as seeing Daenerys' morally dubious actions through her eyes and in a heroic setting blinds perception of the implied threat of corruption?

Switching pov, listening to dramatic sad violins and slo-mo Lannister soldiers burning (supposedly including Ed Sheeran's unfortunate participation), watching Jaime Lannister go full knight on a white (?) horse as heroic music sounds, trying to stab an unarmed woman with a lance to win a war?

It shapes the emotional perception of the scene.

The Tarlys could have been valuable prisoners, but you cannot call them innocent. 

At the least they were a threat. 

Why didn't anyone propose substituting them with another House, like the Redwynes? Frame the Tarly execution not as 'bendtheknee!' and 'f u' mediocrity but as punishment for the loss of her allies?

Because now it is time to sympathise with Lannisters, and validate the 'foreign whore with armies of savages' propaganda, even if now, due to their actions, the savages and dragons are her only recourse.

 

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8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Tyrion's advice to her in Westeros was terrible.  Had she followed her own instincts, and blitzed the Red Keep at the outset, the war against Cersei would have ended in 30 minutes, at a fraction of the number of casualties.  

Destroying the Red Keep with dragonfire could maybe kill Cersei, but maybe she could escape if that underground passage hasn't been destroyed, then that would accomplish nothing and they would still need to attack the city gates with her army, and people would die again.

What Tyrion suggested was the most logical solution. 

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6 minutes ago, RYShh said:

So what would you do? Burning them with dragonfire?

Well, I'm a Norwegian guy living in the 21st Century, and not exactly the biggest fan of the death penalty, but if I try to set all of that aside and see things from the perspective of the characters who exist in Planetos, my answer would be that beheading seems like a better method of execution than dragonfire.

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4 minutes ago, RYShh said:

Destroying the Red Keep with dragonfire could maybe kill Cersei, but maybe she could escape if that underground passage hasn't been destroyed, then that would accomplish nothing and they would still need to attack the city gates with her army, and people would die again.

What Tyrion suggested was the most logical solution. 

Capturing Casterly Rock, which was worthless;  capturing a wight, which almost caused Jon to be killed, almost caused Dany to be killed, and cost her Viserion;  organising a parley with Cersei which led to Cersei betraying them;  holding a second parley with Cersei which ended with Missandei being beheaded.  The most charitable interpretation of Tyrion's actions is that he has a belief in Cersei's innate goodness which is utterly unfounded (and absurd, given her treatment of him).

Even if Cersei had escaped Kings Landing via a secret passage, the city would have surrendered in her absence.

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1 hour ago, RYShh said:

The temperature shouldn't matter. Throwing someone into a volcano would be even quicker than that, but they still burn.

I'm sorry but it matters. It's the difference between the guillotine and the jihadist's butcher's knife. 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Independent Republic of Dragonstone?

Daenerys could be accused of not being raised in Westerosi traditions, yes.

And she had Westerosi allies which she'd chosen to use in her campaign despite the urging of the likes of Olenna Tyrell.

Until the Tarlys and other Reach Lords went and had a little convo with Cersei's propaganda department and started practicing their sums.

Highgarden out, Hornhill in?

Her Dornish allies were slaughtered or imprisoned.

 Yara Greyjoy's claim and fleet destroyed or taken by Urine.

It was a very Lannister moment for Cersei. And a very stupod moment for Tyrion.

Also, did all those troop movements just happen too fast for Varys to know about?

Daenerys is then truly reduced to foreign armies, while trying to stop the caravan carrying the loot from the sack of Highgarden.

So Randyll Tarly is participating in and profiting from the betrayal and slaughter of the House he was a vassal of (Bolton and Stark anyone?).

But just the same as seeing Daenerys' morally dubious actions through her eyes and in a heroic setting blinds perception of the implied threat of corruption?

Switching pov, listening to dramatic sad violins and slo-mo Lannister soldiers burning (supposedly including Ed Sheeran's unfortunate participation), watching Jaime Lannister go full knight on a white (?) horse as heroic music sounds, trying to stab an unarmed woman with a lance to win a war?

It shapes the emotional perception of the scene.

The Tarlys could have been valuable prisoners, but you cannot call them innocent. 

At the least they were a threat. 

Why didn't anyone propose substituting them with another House, like the Redwynes? Frame the Tarly execution not as 'bendtheknee!' and 'f u' mediocrity but as punishment for the loss of her allies?

Because now it is time to sympathise with Lannisters, and validate the 'foreign whore with armies of savages' propaganda, even if now, due to their actions, the savages and dragons are her only recourse.

 

I used the wrong word, I was going to say ''wasn't raised in Westeros'',

She had allies thanks to Lannisters. Dorne and Highgarden all choose to follow her because they hate Lannisters, otherwise they wouldn't care less.

There is a reason why her advisers started to betray her one by one. 

Edited by RYShh

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59 minutes ago, Einheri said:

So, while in Essos, Dany realized that she had to put in the effort to make her people love her, but now that she's in Westeros she just goes "f*ck it.... burn them all to there's no one left to love me". Again,  that makes little sense, and we needed more setup to make this change believable... time D&D weren't willing to give themselves, so they should have avoided it altogether.

I think they were going for this, though admittedly this is one area where the rushed pacing didn't help. Dany feels like she has done everything for the Westerosi; she's here to free them from a tyrant! She sacrificed a dragon, her armies, and her oldest advisor to stop the long night! Yet still everyone but Jon distrusts her; a really instructive scene is in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms,  when Theon returns and she is initially happy, only for it to be revealed that his loyalty to and love for Sansa and the Starks is much deeper. She's a stranger and foreigner, no matter what she does. And then when she finds out her destiny as the last true Targaryen is a lie... and when she sees the respect and love Jon has... and when she sees that the people of King's Landing aren't crying out for her to save them from Cersei, she decides fear is the answer.

My feeling is that Dany's arc is not towards becoming her father, but towards becoming Tywin. He too at one point ruled well and prosperously and seemed to have the interests of the whole kingdom at heart. Like Dany, he was ruthless but also aimed at justice. But slighted over and over, and driven to restore his house to greatness, he chose to rule with fear for the rest of his life and use bloodshed of innocents as a tool. Dany becomes Tywin, but with a dragon, which is just as terrifying as Aerys with a dragon.

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