NBA Finals 2019: Can the Raptors Claw Out a Win?

[Zuzu Bolin]

I got 33/1 about Toronto last summer. In a great position and have hedged with 3s about GS winning 4-3. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

12 hours ago, SkynJay said:

Disagree.  They have to protect the players and this was ridiculous.  Fans who fight each other earn lifetime bans.  This guy reached over just to physically attack a player.  I know a minor shove wasn't going to hurt him but at its core it WAS a physical attack.  He deliberately made unwanted physical contact and went out of his way to do so.  If I did this at a Hooters my picture would be posted by the bouncer station, it should be no different for Trey in his $40k seats. 

 

12 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

I think some normal schmoe who had done something like that would be banned for life. There is no excuse for this VC douchebag to act like that. Owners are supposed to be held to a higher standard. He should be forced to divest and banned for life.

Physical attack? Jesus Christ man it was a minor shove that wouldn’t knock over a toddler. I said ban him for a year, and a half hour later the NBA did just that, further narrowing the suspects of our take thievery. We’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

[Proudfeet]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

Physical attack? Jesus Christ man it was a minor shove that wouldn’t knock over a toddler. I said ban him for a year, and a half hour later the NBA did just that, further narrowing the suspects of our take thievery. We’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

I'd like to meet the that toddler. Anyway, he followed that up with insults. Its the kind of thing that starts fights. What would your reaction be if Lowry retaliated? That Lowry is a thug?

Also, he is part of the Warriors management. He absolutely has to be held to higher standards.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

11 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I'd like to meet the that toddler. Anyway, he followed that up with insults. Its the kind of thing that starts fights. What would your reaction be if Lowry retaliated? That Lowry is a thug?

Also, he is part of the Warriors management. He absolutely has to be held to higher standards.

I had to squint to even see it. It was so minor. Calling for a life time ban is so over the top.

And insults? OMG!!! He said “F U” to guy. The pain. The horror. JFC. As long as it wasn’t racial slurs, or something similar, who cares?

And no, I’d never call Lowry a thug. In fact I’d argue that he should be allowed to punch him in the face. Without penalty. Have you ever seen a football player tackle a streaker? It’s glorious. If you give the players the right to react and defend themselves, the fans would behave a lot better.

Also, speaking of streakers, did ya’ll see the hot chick who went “streaking” during the Champion’s League Final?

[Maithanet]

13 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Physical attack? Jesus Christ man it was a minor shove that wouldn’t knock over a toddler. We’re making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Why are you always siding with management against players? 

11 hours ago, Triskele said:

If I was GS and I was looking for another silver lining from game 3 it's that Toronto was on fire last game and is unlikely to have another shooting night from three like that.  

I'm not sure I would say the Raptors were shooting 3s unrealistically well in game 3.  I thought the Raptors made an unusual percentage of contested 3s, but also missed a fair number of open 3s.  The Warriors defense was really bad, I would totally expect Toronto to score 120+ again if they continue to play like that. 

The funny thing is that as bad as they Warriors looked in game 3 (read: very bad), they actually weren't that devoid of talent.  They still have a healthy Top 5 player in Curry.  They have a healthy all-star in Green.  They have one of the best wing defenders in the league in Iguodala.  Sure, that's not enough to make the Finals, but that's still a better top 3 than a lot of playoff teams can muster.  Sure, they fall off the cliff after that with minutes to guys who are either a shell of themselves (Cousins/Bogut/Livingston) or journeymen, but still.  I'd argue that the game 3 team was still more talented than either the 2015 or the 2018 Cavaliers teams that showed up in the Finals.  Maybe not as well constructed...

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Why are you always siding with management against players? 

How dare you!

In fact, I just  'd you by saying Lowry should be allowed to punch out the guy.

My integrity remains intact!!!!!!   

 

[DanteGabriel]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

How dare you!

In fact, I just  'd you by saying Lowry should be allowed to punch out the guy.

My integrity remains intact!!!!!!   

 

You're really leaning hard into this Chuck Schumer turn. How hard a shove should a billionaire owner be allowed to give a player on an opposing team? You know damn well if Lowry had responded in kind, he'd be in series-altering trouble. There was no reason for Techbro McGreedhead to lay a fucking finger on a player. I hope he gets dragged to hell and back.

[Proudfeet]

10 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I had to squint to even see it. It was so minor. Calling for a life time ban is so over the top.

And insults? OMG!!! He said “F U” to guy. The pain. The horror. JFC. As long as it wasn’t racial slurs, or something similar, who cares?

And no, I’d never call Lowry a thug. In fact I’d argue that he should be allowed to punch him in the face. Without penalty. Have you ever seen a football player tackle a streaker? It’s glorious. If you give the players the right to react and defend themselves, the fans would behave a lot better.

Also, speaking of streakers, did ya’ll see the hot chick who went “streaking” during the Champion’s League Final?

I wasn't following the NBA then, but that sure went over well in Detroit didn't it? I guess you're the thug then.

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Proudfeet said:

I wasn't following the NBA then, but that sure went over well in Detroit didn't it? I guess you're the thug then.

Watching that live (I was watching ESPN at the time and they cut straight to it) was pretty ridiculous.  I have never seen anything like it in sports.  I was genuinely concerned that someone was going to be killed (probably a fan). 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

36 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

You're really leaning hard into this Chuck Schumer turn. How hard a shove should a billionaire owner be allowed to give a player on an opposing team? You know damn well if Lowry had responded in kind, he'd be in series-altering trouble. There was no reason for Techbro McGreedhead to lay a fucking finger on a player. I hope he gets dragged to hell and back.

Schumer? You've gone too far!

You’re acting like he got up and gave him a strong, two arm shove. What he did was dainty. He shouldn’t have done it, and the punishment was fair. IDK what more you want.

And like I said, in a just and thoughtful world, Lowry should have been allowed to drop him.

27 minutes ago, Proudfeet said:

I wasn't following the NBA then, but that sure went over well in Detroit didn't it? I guess you're the thug then.

Don’t invoke The Malice in the Palace lightly. It’s more apocalyptic than a nuclear holocaust. Good God man!!!

27 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

Watching that live (I was watching ESPN at the time and they cut straight to it) was pretty ridiculous.  I have never seen anything like it in sports.  I was genuinely concerned that someone was going to be killed (probably a fan). 

I was watching the game at a buddy’s place with a few friends. I left a little early because the game was in hand and I had some homework to do. It was like a five minute drive home. I get a call halfway through with my buddy screaming that you won’t believe what’s happening.

If anyone was gonna get killed, it was that fat guy who tried to square up with Jermaine O'Neal.

[DanteGabriel]

41 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You’re acting like he got up and gave him a strong, two arm shove. What he did was dainty. He shouldn’t have done it, and the punishment was fair. IDK what more you want.

I'm acting like he put hands on a player when he has more reasons than an average fan to watch his dumb ass. As I said first, normal schmoe would have had a lifetime ban instantly. The Warriors were gonna keep him out of the last three games and fine him couch cushion change. The league and the Warriors had to put a thumb in the wind and realized how pissed their players were before giving this guy a real punishment.

If the reports are accurate that Stevens is going to have to divest his ownership at a healthy profit, I guess that may be enough. It should still be a lifetime ban. It's certainly not what those smug shitheels in the Warriors organization were planning to do. They wanted this to just blow over, and I'm glad Lowry has handled this firmly and with a level head.

Some time down the road, after the Warriors have abandoned Oakland and set themselves up in a gilded revenue-extracting palace in San Francisco, Stevens will be back. He'll be enjoying concierge service in a luxury suite, recounting for his chinless friends his harrowing experience of once having experienced a minor consequence for something, while they plot to profitably disrupt the pool cleaning industry and book their luxury tents for Burning Man.

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And like I said, in a just and thoughtful world, Lowry should have been allowed to drop him.

Don’t invoke The Malice in the Palace lightly. It’s more apocalyptic than a nuclear holocaust. Good God man!!!

Hey, I'd support letting Lowry piledrive him at center court, but you know how the optics would be if a Big Scary Black Man raised a hand to some middle-aged overprivileged Job Creator in tastefully tailored khakis and team polo shirt.

And yeah, let's go back to the Malice, a donnybrook that was precipitated by a fan pouring a drink on a player. Obviously the lesson to draw from that is that it's not so bad if the fan doesn't really hurt the player.

I honestly don't understand this "all he did was give him a little push" thing.

[Jaime L]

17 hours ago, briantw said:

Game of Zones is amazing.

It has gotten crazy good in the last season or two. The draft lottery is still the single best episode they've done. Also Patrick Beverly's lines to Durant were so clever it makes me wonder whether GoZ knows something. 

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

The funny thing is that as bad as they Warriors looked in game 3 (read: very bad), they actually weren't that devoid of talent.  They still have a healthy Top 5 player in Curry.  They have a healthy all-star in Green.  They have one of the best wing defenders in the league in Iguodala.  Sure, that's not enough to make the Finals, but that's still a better top 3 than a lot of playoff teams can muster.  Sure, they fall off the cliff after that with minutes to guys who are either a shell of themselves (Cousins/Bogut/Livingston) or journeymen, but still.  I'd argue that the game 3 team was still more talented than either the 2015 or the 2018 Cavaliers teams that showed up in the Finals.  Maybe not as well constructed...

The "not as well constructed" part is what's key. Everyone outside of the 3 regulars is a massive defensive liability either cause they're awful at it (Cook/Jerebko), have zero lateral movement/mobility (Cousins/Bogut), are easily exploitable because they don't understand NBA defensive rotations (Bell). You can maybe hide one of these guys, but if two are on the floor together you're done. The effect is exponential. A team with 5 guys who can score, like the Raptors, will work you all day long. I'm sure Steph would've killed to have a Jeff Green, George Hill or Rodney Hood two nights ago. 

It's why Klay is so critical - both because he's really good on both ends of the floor but equally important that's 37 minutes you don't have one of the Shemps out there. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

 

42 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

I'm acting like he put hands on a player when he has more reasons than an average fan to watch his dumb ass. As I said first, normal schmoe would have had a lifetime ban instantly.

How would you even enforce a lifetime ban? The only way is straight 1984 s***.

By the way folks, it’s the books 70^th anniversary tomorrow. READ IT!

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Hey, I'd support letting Lowry piledrive him at center court, but you know how the optics would be if a Big Scary Black Man raised a hand to some middle-aged overprivileged Job Creator in tastefully tailored khakis and team polo shirt.

And yeah, let's go back to the Malice, a donnybrook that was precipitated by a fan pouring a drink on a player. Obviously the lesson to draw from that is that it's not so bad if the fan doesn't really hurt the player.

I mean, that’s taking it a bit far, no? The point is fans won’t act up if they know that a ticket includes a line that says “If you make contact with a player, they have every right to defend themselves and the purchase of said ticket is your forfeiture of any right to legal recourse.”

Problem solved.

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I honestly don't understand this "all he did was give him a little push" thing.

Eh, I had to watch the video multiple times to even see what happened. That leads me to believe that it wasn’t too egregious. He shouldn’t have done it and deserves to be shamed and punished, but the pile on is becoming over the top at this point.

[Proudfeet]

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

How would you even enforce a lifetime ban? The only way is straight 1984 s***.

By the way folks, it’s the books 70^th anniversary tomorrow. READ IT!

I mean, that’s taking it a bit far, no? The point is fans won’t act up if they know that a ticket includes a line that says “If you make contact with a player, they have every right to defend themselves and the purchase of said ticket is your forfeiture of any right to legal recourse.”

Problem solved.

Eh, I had to watch the video multiple times to even see what happened. That leads me to believe that it wasn’t too egregious. He shouldn’t have done it and deserves to be shamed and punished, but the pile on is becoming over the top at this point.

The same way you enforce all other lifetime bans?

You keep ignoring the fact that he isn't just a fan, he is Warriors management. And we aren't living in your fantasy world where players are allowed to retaliate. We are living in a world where Lowry is likely to be suspended without pay for a year if he did retaliate at the minimum. Which by the way would cost him a potential championship and much more money without having the benefit of being a billionaire. 

Its funny that you keep defending Serena over in the Tennis thread because apparently other people "can't relate" because it seems that you are the one who can't relate here.

[Fragile Bird]

I’m pissed the bastard didn’t get a lifetime ban. Let’s face it, he did what he did trying to incite a reaction. Any reaction probably would have led to a ban for at least three games and perhaps changed the course of the play-offs. Don't pretend that couldn’t have profited the team by tens of millions if it turned the series around.

[DanteGabriel]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

How would you even enforce a lifetime ban? The only way is straight 1984 s***.

I dunno, ask the teams who have actually put lifetime bans on fans who didn't even touch the player.

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I mean, that’s taking it a bit far, no? The point is fans won’t act up if they know that a ticket includes a line that says “If you make contact with a player, they have every right to defend themselves and the purchase of said ticket is your forfeiture of any right to legal recourse.”

Problem solved.

You're taking refuge behind an absurd scenario to, I dunno, handwave away the wrongdoing of a guy who doesn't need your help.

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Eh, I had to watch the video multiple times to even see what happened. That leads me to believe that it wasn’t too egregious. He shouldn’t have done it and deserves to be shamed and punished, but the pile on is becoming over the top at this point.

Kyle Lowry didn't need to parse and review the incident, though. He felt the shove and heard Stevens cursing him out. I'd trust his reaction over yours, which is depressingly along the lines of "I barely noticed anything wrong, so everyone else must be overreacting."

When people pile on like this, I think it's usually a symptom of a widespread feeling that injustice will occur without the social backlash. The Warriors tried to simper out of this with a canned statement and a "he won't come to any other games in this series." As if there was going to be more than one or two more games in Oakland.

I am trying to figure out why you are expending this much energy in defense of the indefensible for a guy whose life will be, at best, minorly inconvenienced as a result of his arrogance and stupidity. Is Stevens a friend of Amy Klobuchar or something?

[Relic]

Lifetime ban might be a bit of an over reaction for a first time offense. Ban him for a year and make him fund a bunch of public center works to promote sports and youth development in urban areas to atone. If he does anything similar again, kick his ass out for good. My two cents. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Proudfeet said:

The same way you enforce all other lifetime bans?

You keep ignoring the fact that he isn't just a fan, he is Warriors management. And we aren't living in your fantasy world where players are allowed to retaliate. We are living in a world where Lowry is likely to be suspended without pay for a year if he did retaliate at the minimum. Which by the way would cost him a potential championship and much more money without having the benefit of being a billionaire. 

Its funny that you keep defending Serena over in the Tennis thread because apparently other people "can't relate" because it seems that you are the one who can't relate here.

It was a reference to facial recognition technology and the brave new world we’re entering. Hence the mention of 1984.

You keep focusing on the fact that he’s an owner. Well here’s the truth of the real world, people with power get privilege. We don’t get treated equality. In my perfect world where Lowry decked him, we would be treated more equally. That’s life.

And I can totally sympathize with Lowry. I’d be mad too. I just wouldn’t call for a lifetime ban. Not for that.

(Also, on Serena, you folks in tennis thread seem to always forget that I said she was wrong. I was just asking what appeared to be a bunch of white guys to maybe try and think how a black woman would see the situation differently)

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

When people pile on like this, I think it's usually a symptom of a widespread feeling that injustice will occur without the social backlash. The Warriors tried to simper out of this with a canned statement and a "he won't come to any other games in this series." As if there was going to be more than one or two more games in Oakland.

It starts that way, but then it tends to evolve into a game of who can out outrage the others. It’s a problem across our society.

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I am trying to figure out why you are expending this much energy in defense of the indefensible for a guy whose life will be, at best, minorly inconvenienced as a result of his arrogance and stupidity. Is Stevens a friend of Amy Klobuchar or something?

You know, I would think you’d appreciate having someone here who has worked for several elected officials and is willing to give you small peeks behind the curtain you’d otherwise never see. And if you want to figure out why I’m arguing this, pick a different Senator from Minnesota and start there.

[Maithanet]

6 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

You know, I would think you’d appreciate having someone here who has worked for several elected officials and is willing to give you small peeks behind the curtain you’d otherwise never see. And if you want to figure out why I’m arguing this, pick a different Senator from Minnesota and start there.

If Tina Smith punches Kyle Lowry at tonight's game I'm gonna be really surprised. 

It would also indicate that whoever is reading the forum for ideas is a lot more powerful than we'd thought.