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A Pantheon of Bastards


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This is a thread inspired by @Seams and their proposal that Aegon IV's bastards are analogous to the Greek/Roman pantheon. I won't repeat seams's work on the four great bastards Bittersteel, Bloodraven, Daemon Blackfyre, and Shiera Seastar too much as I'm hopeful they'll come on over and write that up for themselves. 

Let us begin with Aegon IV who plays the role of Zeus here with his sowing his wilds oats like there's danger of a famine on it's way. Zeus poisoned his father Cronus with a drugged drink which caused him to vomit up the rest of his children.  And by odd coincidence Aegon IV is suspected of poisoning his father Viserys to speed his ascension to the throne. Or is it?

I do feel GRRM utilises a multitude of mythology references to convey thoughts and ideas in the story as well as simply paying homage to our own rich world of folklore and history. We have to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming that correlation = exact mimicry.  In this case I think we can assume there is some information to be extracted from Aegon IV and his many bastards though as this first reference is very clear when you combine it with the sheer number and variety of his mistresses. Just like Zeus Aegon loved to put it about. And likely poisoned his own father. 

We just have to be cautious about drawing too much from any one tale. Another thing worthy of note is that many if not most real world mythologies have similarities and parallels. despite being globally miles apart. The three Norns of Norse-northern European pagan mythology correlate to the three fates of Greco-Roman mythology for instance and finding a parallel within the story doesn't mean you are on the right path and must stick to that to find the truth behind GRRM's meaning. He could just as easily have had a different mythology with a similar theme in mind.

And lastly never try to fit the books to the myths. Begin and end with the text itself if you find yourself reading the myths and trying to fit ASOIAF to it you are on the wrong path. 

Right cautioners tale over.  

Aegon IV  had many lovers and I shall begin by attempting to list them and their offspring. Ten in total and once we remove his sister we have the nine women he claims he loved. 

  • Naerys Targaryen: Wife mother of Daeron (153)  Danaerys (172)
  • Casella Vaith: Mistress no issue
  • Merry Meg: Wife; possibly, mother of Allysanne (155) Lilly (156) Willow (157) Rosey (158)
  • Bellegere Otherys:  Wife; possibly, mother of Bellanora (161-170) Narha (162-171) Balerion (163-172) possible paternity issues as she is said to have had many husbands. 
  • Daena Targaryen: Mistress Daemon (170)
  • Barba Bracken: Mistress Aegor (172)
  • Melissa Blackwood: Mistress Mya (172/173) Gwenys (173/174) Bryndon (175)
  • Elaena Targaryen: Mistress Viserys (176/177)
  • Bethany Bracken: Mistress no issue
  • Serenei of Lys: Mistress Shiera (178-184)

We do not know if this list is definitive and I have purposefully included those lovers who did not give him a child and I have also where it is rumoured listed wives as wives. We do not know yet if they were but I do feel it is wise in a story with Polygamy at it's centre to admit the possibility. I chose not to list Barba as a wife though as I felt out of the three were possible marriages are hinted at hers was the most clear cut. Her father tried to encourage it but the official line is they were only rumours of that proposal and not an actual wedding. Though I would not rule it out and if it turns out in F&B II that those rumours were more than just the talk of the suggestion I won't be shocked. 

Next I will list each woman's bio: briefly covering the essentials if we know them of appearance and personality.  Then we can see if any goddesses or mortals who appear in Zeus's little black book fit. 

Nearys:    Valyrian, delicate,  ethereal, modest, a skilled musician; the harp, and needle work enthusiast, pious and a big reader, cried at her bedding ceremony and struggled with birthing. Loved another or so it is said. May have cuckolded Aegon.  Aemon the dragonknight is also said to have cried during the wedding and argued with Aegon at the feast. Aegon was found hitting Aemon with a dragon egg in his cradle and Aegon's jealousy over his brother and over his brothers relationship; whatever it was, with their sister is a large part of their story.  Aemon protected and guarded Naerys as a KG. Defending her honour she is mentioned 12 times in the series. 6 times in the main books and 6 in the world book. Aemon however is mentioned a total of 33 times - 6 times in AGOT, 6 times in ACOK, 6 times in ASOS, 4 times in AFFC and 1 time in ADWD, 2 times in THK, and 8 times in TWOIAF. Aemon aligns with Jon in the main series through the naming pattern of Maester Aemon and Aemon Steelsong as well as a handful of quotes where Jon uses the legendary knights name in ways that correlate with himself. and I think Aemon may turn out to be Jon's "Targaryen" name.  We can not talk about Naerys without talking about Aemon which is why I've included him here. Danaerys is said to resemble Naerys so there may be clues as to her future in Naerys tale or anyone whom she is found to align with from the pantheon. As well as her daughter Danaerys whose name sake Dany is and who has connections to both Dorne and her half brother Daemon. 

Casella: Dornish, from house Vaith  which was founded by Andals, semi cannon- their sigil is three black leopards on a yellow pile with an orange background. She had a willowy figure, pale white blonde hair and green eyes. never married or produced any children, went mad towards the end of her life swearing she was Aegon's one true love and that he would send for her. Nearly had Dunk killed for something he said to her. historical house members and events include a lord Vaith who was murdered for the price the IT had put on his head and Harlan Tyrell lost his entire army in the sands near to them. Rhaenys found the castle empty on her flight into Dorne.  lords title is lord of the red dunes. 

Merry Meg:  commoner from Fairmarket in the riverlands, fairmarket is a small town associated with the widows fairs following the dance and with the ongoing conflict in the riverlands in the main series, Harren Hoare's ancestor built a modest tower house there after defeating  Arrec Durrandon.  Pate of Fairmarket was a peasant who reigned briefly as king of the riverlands from Fairmarket before being put down by Arlan III Durandon.  Now interestingly enough these correlations between Fairmarket and house Durrandon - forebears for house Baratheon bring to mind Gendry. Meg's husband was a Blacksmith, and she is buxom and given the monika "Merry" and though her colouring is not given her picture in the world book is shown as dark haired-though not blue eyed. But this is very interesting a commoner - like Gendry, a Blacksmiths wife instead of apprentice, and from a town associated with house Baratheon, and given features which bring that house to mind. Merry meg could remind us of the laughing storm, or Robert's jovial nature of his youth, buxom brings to mind rounded and plump like Robert too and having huge boobs myself I can say that yes people often affiliate it with being seen as larger than life. much like Robert.  Meg may have been married to Aegon and personally I feel it is more likely than not. what that says though about the main story I can't say, other than a simple method to keep polygamy in mind. he is said to have bought her for 7 gold dragons. The only reference from the books which I feel is possible as a link to this is ADWD Davos  I in which it is said that Lord Sunderland would sell you a Queen for a pot of that Lannister Gold, as the poor man has seven sons determined to be knights. In essence if Aegon purchased Meg he bought himself a queen from a poor man for gold. The Sunderland's sigil is three women with black hair - remember we don't have her colouring but this is the second hint it is dark. The ruler of Sunderland at Aegon's conquest was Marla - meaning star of the sea so there is a link to Aegon IV via Shiera, and she was deposed for her brother whose name was Steffon, same as Roberts fathers name.  Meg gave Aegon 4 daughters though not three which is a point against this three sisters of sister ton reference. Unless we separate Allysanne who has a Targaryen name from her siblings who all have nature names. Which gives us interesting options when it comes to trying to marry people up with the pantheon as the Greco-Roman mythologies have several three sister motifs.  And I have always felt Allysanne stands separate to her siblings due to that name. Also she should by the rules almost confirmed have her mothers colouring whilst Lilly, Willow, and Rosey have Aegons' further dividing the sisters into one and three.

Bellegere Otherys:  Braavosi-Summer Islander.  Smuggler, trader, and sometimes pirate/privateer. She's the Hans Solo of Planetos. The immediate alignments obviously go with the Black Pearl of the main story and her associated link to Arya and Braavos. But let us explore if there are other clues to be found. Braavos firstly is home to the Valyrian slaves who escaped the empires grip, hidden amongst the northerly mists and founded on the principles of freedom and respecting the worship of all gods it's also home to the FM the IB and once to Illyrio Mopatis. Currently Arya resides there but it has also hosted Aemon Targaryen, Samwell Tarly, Dareon the singer, Gilly and Aemon Steelsong. It may even be where Tysha ended up.  Danaerys & Viserys III stayed there with Willem Darry and Oberyn Martell visited, Syrio Florell was once first sword and Jaquen whilst he says he hails from further down the coast at Lorath almost certainly has lived here too.  Braavos is like Piccadilly circus. Elissa Farman once sold stolen dragon eggs here and many of the characters storylines cross paths here, currently there are westerlanders who might recognise Tysha if they visit the Happy Port; I do think she is Tysha but this is an unconfirmed theory. Though I have done the maths and it all works out. As well as Lord cockadoodle do. Err sorry Swyft.   Oh and I almost forgot it also has ties to Little Finger who's grandfather was Braavosi and whose house sigil is the head of the Titan.  It is also referred to as the bastard daughter of Valyria and of course Bellegere gave Aegon two bastard daughters; or not depending on if you take the reference to her having a whole bunch of husbands to mean she married Aegon IV too.  And then the summer isles we never travel there in the main series but there are still links between their inhabitants and out characters. Sam, Gilly, Aemon, & Aemon travel from Braavos on the Cinnamon Wind where Aemon dies. But the travel to Old Town wher ewe meet Alleras aka Sarella Sand. the bastard daughter of a Dornish Prince & a summer Islander. Who we can presume was a trader/shipswoman. How very similar to Bellegere who is the daughter of a Sealord the closest thing to royalty in Braavos. Which can be in turn likened to Aegon at the time a prince becoming the father of a maybe bastard daughter by a shipswoman who is also part summer islander. We know nothing of her other children besides their names. But Bellanora went on to be a courtesan which is a posh prostitute, and in Braavos her home we have Lanna a Lannister child perhaps, hiding in plain site in a brothel working as a whore and in KL we have a brothel run by a summer islander hiding in plain site another possible Lannister  who is a whore Dancy, green eyed with long pale blonde hair; though lannisters blonde is usually golden this could in fact be Tywin's very own bastard daughter. And another link between the current story and randy Aegon is in Mercy TWOW when Arya is observing the Black Pearl who is accompanying Lord Swyft, and the girl she is discussing the courtesan with is named Daena. Who of course gave Aegon IV a son too. Daemon Blackfyre. Whose descendant may or may not be fAegon via Illyrio.   Bellegere is obviously a historical figure so we know nothing of her personally but we have some qualities to use in the search and some links to current characters which may be relevant

Daena Targaryen: Valyrain of House Targaryen was sort of almost a Queen both through her unconsummated marriage to Baelor and post her release from the Maiden Vault it was discussed but dismissed that she should rule.  She is lively, mischievous, determined, cunning, has a flair for drama, is a huntress and carries a bow. Physically she resembles Shiera most in her description. Narrow waist, heart shaped face, thick wild curling hair, daring personality.  Kept under lock and key and forced to remain a virgin. Obviously though that didn't work out. GRRM described her as Targaryen to the bone and she is famed to say that she was born to ride a dragon; shame they'd all died out by then. Her son is of course the most troublesome of Aegon's kids in that he rose in rebellion. 

Barba Bracken:  Riverlander House Bracken. Our second Riverlands lover for Aegon, and she wont be our last. Barba was said to be busty, vivacious, immodest, with dark hair. Aegon got her with child at the same time as he impregnated Naerys with his twins and she was just 16 years old herself. When Nearys nearly died after birthing the twins, and having lost one of them the boy. Barba's father began openly suggesting Aegon take Barba as his new wife. Now there are obvious parallels here with Rhaegar in that his wife nearly died in birthing his heirs and he may ( oh go on we all know he did) have taken a second wife because of this. Aegon IV has rumours of polygamy swarming round him and then GRRM gives him the same issue of a wife who might die from pregnancies. Of course things are rarely a direct mirror and unlike Aegon Rhaegar was considered eminently worthy by the realm and his peers and still is despite Roberts best efforts. Barba's pushy social climbing father get sthem both banished from court though back to Stoney hedge: Lord Bracken rebelled against lord Hoare and was starved in a crow cage as a result. Now there are likening's here between Barba's father causing displeasure and being starved of the favour he craved from the King as a result and the method used being a crow cage works nicely with Bloodraven being the result of the union with the lady who replaced Barba. Given his affiliation with crows through the rumours he uses them to spy whilst hand, his joining the NW, and Bran seeing him as the 3EC. Stoney Hedge is taken by Daemon Targaryen in the dance of the dragons and similarly Daemon takes house Bracken into his side in the rebellion through the support of Barba's son Aegor. The Brackens are associated with grasping ambition and we will see more of them later when we get to Bethany. 

Melissa Blackwood:  Riverlander, House Blackwood. Third Riverlands lady and by far his most beloved in terms of the rest of courts feelings about his mistresses. Missy is slender where Barba was buxom and modest where she was boastful, Naerys herself befriends her illustrating that she was a good hearted woman. God what was she doing sleeping with that arsehole. Well I doubt one has a choice when the king decides he wants you in his bed.  She didn't just charm Naerys but also found favour with Aemon and Daeron. Missy was at court and well in favour with everyone for 5 years and this is the longest run any of Aegon's live in mistresses have had so far. Her house is strongly associated with the old gods through their sigil, their faith, and their possible magical abilities. Bloodraven is the only known member o exhibit traits but the house is steeped in things we associate with magic. It's clear we are supposed to draw conclusions here. Whilst Missy is not said to have dark hair we can be pretty certain she did as other Blackwood ladies are described with that feature.  Note historically whilst the Brackens rebellion against the Hoare's resulted in starvation in a crow cage the Blackwoods rebellion against them is successful as they do so by joining with Aegon the conqueror though he grants the lord paramount to Tully instead. A Blackwood & a Bracken fought a duel over Rhaenyra which can be seen as the two houses fighting over the Targaryen's in the same way Barba and Missy were in competition over Aegon; if that competition was all Barba and her dad then so be it. Where as Blackwoods supported Leanor in the great council and Rhaenyra eventually weds Leanor which can be taken to symbolise that Blackwoods won in the war of the mistresses because they supported the side she eventually married. They also supported her during tehdance and as everyone knows the Blacks where the real heirs with the greens being up jumped usurpers. Later of course Blackwood support Daeron the true heir whilst Daemon Blackfyre is just a pretender. Daena was never married to Aegon so no matter who gave who what sword he is not the legitimate heir. Blackwoods are rewarded at the end of the dance for defending the right side by GRRM giving Aly a Stark for a husband. And of course the ultimate stamp of approval is Egg marries a Blackwood too. 

Elaena Targaryen: youngest of the Targaryen princesses to be confined in the maidenvault Aegon non the less knocks Elaena up too and I suspect that she was rapidly married off the Lord Plumm as a result. Bagging some nice land and titles for his son in the process. And of course Bloodraven uses house Plum to hide himself at the Whitewalls tourney and Brown Ben eventually results.  She had thin lips and was often angry, grew more beautiful with age (so we may be looking for a crone goddess) was shrewd especially with money, defiant and intelligent with a wilful streak. She basically holds the post of mistress of coin for Daeron II and also is the one corresponding with Braavos whom her third husband is supposedly an envoy to. Also worth noting here is Varys using Reniffer Longwaters as a disguise in the black cells. he tells Jaime I'm descended from a Princess and if as I suspect Varys is descended from Aerion he has actually told the truth to Jaime here, though swapped the sex of his ancestor. Which is very Varys isn't it. I bet he got a kick out of telling Jaime the truth whilst hiding it in his disguise. 

Bethany Bracken: Fourth Riverlander of the bunch and another Bracken. It is said her father and sister groomed her to become Aegon's lover in order to get back at house Blackwood over Missy. We are not given a physical description nor one of her personality. We can assume she is similar in appearance to Barba but perhaps not in personality far from the brazen Barbra it seems she endured Aegon purely for her family and found the whole thing so upsetting she took up with a KG. Aegon later had them all killed when he discovered his mistress had another lover. Bit hypocritical but then that's kings for you. When you look at house Bracken's history it is deliberately vague as to who started the enmity between them and the Blackwoods. But house Bracken come off worst in terms of dastardly deeds done. They are supposedly responsible for poisoning the Blackwoods weirwood and that could have all sorts of meaning both symbolically and in terms of what that means for greenseers who may be attached to that tree. And they also rode into battle supposedly on the same side only to attack their read in a treacherous move.  And of course they supported Aegon II in the dance.  She did not give him any children so we might be looking at a maiden type figure or someone who has been exploited/used. Or of course a betrayer an adulteress or the like. 

Sereni of Lys: Lyseni/Valyrian descent Sereni is his second foreign lover. Called sweet Sereni though I can not think it was to do with her nature as she is described as cold and haughty. From an impoverished Valyrian noble house in Lys. Of course we have seen a Lsyeni form a relationship with a Targaryen before with Larra Rogere, who was Aegon's own mother. So there is strong chance he takes up with this woman because of that link, the mother who left him to return to Lys would have had the same accent for instance and things like that might appeal to him now he is older and thinking about his mortality, what is lost, what never was, etc in his life. Of course equally she could have used sorcery though why she would need to I can't imagine he's a horny selfish womanising man who feels entitled to sex with hot young women all she had to do was show up. It is interesting though that a High Tower seems to have procured her for him. Which of course brings to mind another Hightower hand who sought to use sex to buy power at court. Ormund who brought his daughter Alicent to court ostensibly to nurse Jaehaerys but she in fact woo'd   Viserys. The rumours about her being a sorceress of course intrigue me and should you too. They are likely key to placing a goddess or mythology figure with her. Maybe she is much older than him and indeed uses dark arts to retain her beauty. I do love a good magic user. Perhaps she caused his death and the disgusting flesh worms through sorcery? Of course Lys is associated with several characters Varys is from Lys; born a slave according to Pycelle, Aerion is exiled there and may have fathered children; hint it's Varys & Serra's ancestor, Oberyn too spent time there and Edric Storm is there now. Serra Illyrio's second wife was "found" in a pleasure house on Lys. Saera Targaryen went there when she fled KL.  Lynesse Hightower, previously Johanna Swann. They have many gods and goddesses though some are simply references to other works which GRRM did a lot of in TWOIAF, Yndros for instance is a nod to Melinda Snodgrass's character for the Wildcards series Double Helix, the sex swapping ace who uses seduction to carry out missions for the knighthood the order of the silver helix. Lys specialises is lace, perfume, poisons. And vacations of indulgence.  I'll just place a reminder to exorcise caution her though as when we look at Lys and look at the Rogarre's fall from grace in westeros I don't feel we should just take every foul rumour about them at face value; remember that according to the people of KL Sansa sprouted bat wings and flew from the RK. All females who becomes hated by the smallfolk garner rumours of foul sorcery, it is important not to fall prey to every rumour. GRRM gives us the information he wants to convey but he also smatters it throughout with red herrings and evaluating a resource isn't just about who was there are who was not. People have their own agenda's Remember Little finger explaining how to besmirch Stannis by spreading rumours to counter the twincest.  Surely though there is no smoke without fire and we have to just work out what is and is not true.  if she was much older that is likeliest glamour not the blood of virgins, glamour is an established magic which we know and understand to some degree. Blood of virgins is a hammer horror trope most likely put about by smallfolk with nothing better to discuss. Remember the glee with which Egg recounts Rohanne Webber's supposed acts of vile sorcery to Dunk. Then we meet her and she is about as magical as well I can't even say Sansa as she at least is a warg. 

Right I'm going to post this now, and hopefully it stimulates some mutual discussion. Maybe we need to cast our nets further than just Greek Gods. I know the idea of the bastards and their mothers as a pantheon lends to that theme. But this I GRRM and he rarely sticks to one inspirational resource. I should be back tomorrow to begin examining things a bit further as well as looking at the children themselves. 

 

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I'm not going to explore the mothers and their children in any particular order just type them up as they come to me. I'm starting with my favourite Mum and my favourite of the bastards though. 

Melissa Blackwood is a character who's name actually appears in Greek mythology in relation to Zeus, Melissa is a nymph who feeds the infant Zeus honey, she is also accredited with mixing honey with water and creating a drink which civilised mankind, and the name is also given to the plant Lemon Balm which is accredited with a soothing calming effect.  Which suits Missy's role in the story as she was the mistress that brought Aegon's court together, so well liked she was that even his Queen Naerys became her friend and it was through this good will that Brynden was later able to retain position at court and through that his station as HotK.  And Apollo is said to acknowledge that his gift of prophesy came to him from a bee maiden.  Which brings us to her son Brynden who cannily enough has some alignment with Apollo! 

Bloodraven as Appolo: As I mentioned above in the section about Missy Apollo gained his ability to prophesise from a bee maiden and Brynden has that ability as a green seer. Brynden aligns with Odin figures in the story and Odin too is a god with seer' abilities.  Like I said in my last post I don't think GRRM has ever stuck to one mythology and I am certain the majority of readers agree. Apollo also carries a bow and arrows. Just like Bloodraven. And as Bloodraven is thought to have used Wolves as his spies ie: skinchanging them. Apollo is closely associated with wolves. It is said a pack of wolves followed his mother to the island Delos where she gave birth to him. And he is given the epithet Lyceus or wolf-like.  This tale can perhaps be likened to the origins of house Blackwood who it was said ruled the Wolf Wood in the north, and later emigrated to the riverlands. We have to presume due to some sort of turf war with other houses in the north. Perhaps even the Starks. He is also given the role of teacher and educator of youth; especially boys in their passage to adulthood. And a protector of refugees and these roles fit his story in relation to Bran, whom he is harbouring as a refugee; he had to leave his home for fear of his life, and whom he is teaching how transition from boy to greenseer.  Some of the qualities he is supposed to have educated boys in are talking to and understanding the language of birds, so teaching bran to skinchange the ravens, and the art of seeing, ie initiating him into the weirwood net. 

Apollo committed a blood murder aka kinslaying and was banished from Olympus as a result, he served as a slave (night watch brother) after a period of servitude he travelled to the oracle accompanied by his half sister Athena, and then the oracle was given over into his care  this is him taking his place in the Weirwood cave. In the mythology Apollo leaves the oracle and goes back to Olympus then he recruits a crew of sailors and they go back to the oracle with him where they serve him, but in ASOIAF Bloodraven recruits Bran via infiltrating both his and Jojen's dreams and they come to him at the cave.  Another link between Apollo and Bloodraven is the tale of Niobe, who mocked Leto his mother because he was effeminate in appearance, he killed al Niobe's son's as a result. We can place Daemon's supporters in Niobe's role and Daeron as the one being mocked here as not manly enough, and Bloodraven as Apollo killed all Daemon's sons. Well not quite but most of them. Daemon II died of natural causes whilst his hostage.   

Apollo is a skinchanger and whilst the dolphin is not an animal Bloodraven is said to have skinchanged the similarity is in the talent not the creature. And there are quite a few animals held as sacred to Apollo including as I mentioned above Wolves, Ravens, and Crows. 

Apollo is Zeus's son with Leto; I don't think however each god/goddess and their mothers will align with the character of Aegon's lovers 

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There's also Falena Stokeworth and Jeyne Lothston, mother and daughter, that both were Aegon's mistresses, his first and his eight.

They are both very important. It is possible, that Jeyne was Aegon's daughter. There was a rumor like that.

Furthermore, I think that Jeyne not only was Aegon's child, but she also gave birth to Aegon's son. In my opinion, the Bastard of Harrenhal, that in 193 was defeated by Ser Arlan of Pennytree, was son of Jeyne and Aegon. And he is a very important character, because I think (obviously that I could be wrong about this), that he (or his children) was a founder of House Whent, ancestor of Minisa Whent (wife of Hoster Tully, and mother of Cat, Lysa and Edmure), and the father of the sellsword from Braavos, that was great great grandfather of Petyr Baelish. Which means that Petyr Baelish is something like third cousin to Tully girls, and a descendant of Aegon IV, and that Cat's children are carriers of dragon-genes.

There was also Ambrose Butterwell, host of tournament at Whitewalls in The Mystery Knight. He also could be Aegon's son. According to rumors, Aegon had spent a night with three daughters of Ambrose's grandfather, so it's likely, that one of those three was Ambrose's mother, and Ambrose is Aegon's child. And that's the real reason, why Ambrose had a dragon egg - Aegon gave it not as a payment for "services" of those three girls, it was a present for Aegon's son. And Aegon made that Lord Butterwell his Hand, and then later Ambrose was made the Master of Coin, because they were Aegon's family - father-in-law and son.

His name is also connected to Greek gods:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia

Also it's more than likely, that Serenei of Lys was actually Larra Rogare. It was hinted in the World Book.

So, maybe, Aegon poisoned his father, because he was jealous, or blamed his father for Larra living them. And maybe Aegon was so unsatiable with women, because in his opinion, his mother was the perfect woman, and for his entire life he was looking for someone like her, and eventually did found someone, who was like his mother (only it actually was his mother ^_^)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex

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Thank you, I knew there were more known mistresses and lovers but the wiki is incomplete. I knew there was a mother and daughter who may also have been his own daughter but could not recall their names. What makes you think she gave him a son too? It is hard to understand your reasoning when you don't provide quotes.  

I've not considered the Ambrose Butterwell connection before. That's an interesting idea. I again vaguely recall that rumour of his night with the daughters of Lord Butterwell. I'd need to see the text itself to discern if it's a hint about Ambrose's paternity though.  But I'll admit the naming of him being Ambrosia has made me want to explore him in connection with this idea.

I'm really uncertain of the idea that Sernei was Larra. It doesn't feel right to me, but again without quotes to back up the theory it is very hard to decide if you buy into the idea or not.  I'm also not a big fan of everyone is secretly someone else theories as I feel they cheapen the story quite a lot. Hidden identities have to make sense narratively. And if we are going to say that Serenei was Larra simply because they are both from Lys then hell lets go the whole hog and declare Lady Misery is Larra, is Serenei. and so on. 

I'm quite willing to look at the idea with quotes and reasoning as to why you think this though. As I've said before it is all about discerning simple gossip from the actual clues. Rohanne webber never used magic in the way Egg salaciously tells Dunk she does. And Sansa never sprouted wings to escape the red keep.  Serenei may well have been a magic user but that doesn't mean she is guilty of everything she is accused of. Shiera is undoubtedly being set up as a sorceress too but if we ever get a D&E tale where she appears, I'll eat my hat if we find her bathing in the blood of innocents to maintain her looks. 

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So adding in

Falela Stokeworth: Crownlands, House Stokeworth whose sigil depicts a lamb on a green field holding a golden cup. This sigil and their words are clues to the nature of house Stokeworth. fickle. A sheep is an animal used to signify cowardice and being easily led, the golden cup signifies greed, and their words. "Proud to be faithful" could not be less true. They swap sides in several conflicts, Lord Stokeworth is one of the few lords to gather at Maegor's command but after he is found dead he soon scarpers, implying he may have betrayed his king. During the Dance the Stokeworths changed sides several times and lord stokeworth was one of the first lords sworn to defend Rhaenyra's claim to renounce it. Falena was first taken to court to curry favour after the dance by being a companion to Queen Jaehaera, but was then put forth as a new Queen herself during the maidens day cattle mart. With only her fall resulting in a broken leg preventing her being shown. She seduced Aegon when he was just 14 and she 24 which implies grasping or conniving behaviour. And was wed in 151 to Lucus Lothstan a master at arms. and favourite of Viserys. Who was then named as lord of Harrenhall. This is where I'll leave off from Falela and submit the rest of what I discovered under her daughter Jeyne. Hopefully the reason becomes apparent.

 

Jeyne Lothston:  Riverlander, House Lothston whose sigil is a black bat on silver and gold. Jeyne is rumoured to be Aegon's own daughter and yet was born ten years after he stopped visiting Falena at Harrenhall. in 164. which was during the decade he was with Belegerre and long after he lost interest in her mother. Whilst I doubt Aegon was in Braavos for the entire of the 160's he was certainly there a fair bit he left for Braavos after Naerys's devastating faied birth in 161 and she did not give him another child until 172.  Daemon was born in 170 so he may even have been away from 161 - 169. Though some of Belegerre's children may also have been born in the early 170's. It certainly makes it seem as though popping to Harrenhall in 163/164 to conceive Jeyne is unlikely.  But what if rather than just a salacious rumour this is actually a hint that Falela did in fact bear Aegon a child. And if so who is that child? 

TSS

Quote

if Hightower and Tarbeck and Oakheart and Butterwell had lent us their full strength instead of trying to keep one foot in each camp . . . if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous . . . if storms had not delayed Lord Bracken's sailing with the Myrish crossbowmen . . .

So in 198 there was a Lothston involved in the Blackfyre rebellion, and he isn't Lucus so we can only presume he is a son, or perhaps a brother/cousin etc. However we do have a Lucus Lothstan listed as father of a Manfryd Lothson in the wiki. It is not confirmed these are the same two men but it works within the timeline of Lucus being granted Harrenhall in 151 and Manfred/Manfyrd fighting in the rebellion in 198 as his son. GRRM has changed the spelling of characters names a few times so I don't think we need concern ourselves with that. And certainly the coupling of Manfred Lothston and treachery and the idea of keeping a foot in each camp sounds very Stokeworth like.  So why might I think Manfred is Aegon's son not Lucus's? Well as I explained before Jeyne was born at entirely the wrong time but the rumours might be a hint that Falena did give him a child, and if we look at Manfyrd/Manfred he is described as Manfryd o'the black hood. Who else wears a hood a lot? Bloodraven who does so to hide his fair albino skin from the sun. Maybe Manfred too is albino because they share the same father? Or maybe the phrase is just intended to put him in our minds, or maybe the hood is to hide silver blonde hair? Manfred as a name might give us a clue too. Lord Byron wrote Manfred after fleeing the country over a scandal about him having a sexual relationship with his sister Augusta. In Manfred Byron creates a man haunted by an unspeakable crime involving a woman and is thought to be a confessional piece about his sexual relationship with his sister. So the name is linked to Incest a Targaryen trait.  I'd suggest Jeyne as a lover is more about the possibility of Targaryen blood in house Lothston, and therefore any mythological alignment would relate to that house, after all if I am correct she really was a Lothston and it was her older brother who was the bastard. Another argument in that favour is that when we see Danelle Lothston in TMK in 212 her description evokes Targaryen colours; tight black armour and long red hair. so Black and red. If Manfred was Aegon's son born within the first three years of Falena's marriage when he was visiting her, then timeline wise for Danelle to be head of house Lothston in 212 he has to be dead, and at almost 60 if we take his date of birth to be 152/3 that works just fine. And Danelle is still young enough to have unfaded red hair in 212 so that works fine too for her as his daughter.  

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I can not write up anything pertaining to Lord Butterwell's daughters as they remain unnamed and have no descriptions. We do not know for certain that they did all get pregnant that night, but the dragon egg is certainly a hint and Ambrose has flaxen hair. I'll look again tomorrow. As well as attempt some more about the other mistresses and their bastards.  

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(Edit: I added quotes, on which this theory is based, in post number 10.)

23 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

What makes you think she gave him a son too? It is hard to understand your reasoning when you don't provide quotes.  

If, to figure out mysteries of ASOIAF, it was enough to just parse together a few quotes, then everyone would have been able to do that. But GRRM's writing is not as easy or, as straightforward, as that.

 

The World Book - "Jeyne was brought to court by her mother in 178, when she was fourteen. Aegon made Lord Lothston his new Hand, and it was said (but never proved) that he enjoyed mother and daughter together in the same bed. He soon gave Jeyne a pox he’d caught from the whores he’d been seeing after Lady Bethany’s execution, and the Lothstons were then all sent from court again."

According to rumors, Aegon had sex with both Falena and Jeyne, but for some reason he infected only Jeyne. But the thing is, if Jeyne was Aegon's daughter, then she was immune to diseases like that (and Aegon was also immune to pox). Based on information from various sources, majority of Targaryens were indeed immune to diseases, that were deadly to average people. So it's likely, that it was a lie, that Aegon got a pox from those whores. He just used this lie, as an excuse, to sent pregnant Jeyne away from court, for people not to figure out, that Aegon impregnated his own daughter.

It seems, that the pale mare is cholera. And incubation period of cholera is from several hours to five days. Dany had spent weeks with Drogon in the Grass Sea, prior she felt sick. So, whatever is causing her state, can't be the pale mare. If she wasn't immune to it, then she would have became ill, several days after she went out of Meereen, and ordered Barristan and Grey Worm to burn bodies of slaves, that died from the pale mare. At that time she got in contact with a lot of infected people, and the pale mare was all around her. But since then, weeks or even months have passed (it was prior her wedding with Hizdahr). So she was feeling bad at the end of ADWD, either because she got poisoned with those green berries that she ate, or with dirty water, or she had a miscarriage, or her state is simply caused by menses/monthlies (only this time she feels worse than ever, because she is severely dehydrated, starved and tired, so in this state, to additionally have her period, caused her to feel, as if though she is very ill). Dany is nearly 16 years old, and Viserys died when he was 22, but neither of them ever got ill in those 15+ years of their lives. Thus, this is an evidence, that majority of Targaryens are indeed immune to nearly everything.

Also on Planetos there are two types of pox - one of them is syphilis, which is contracted thru sex or blood, and the other one is a smallpox/variola, can't be contracted thru sex. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Transmission

The period in which smallpox could be transmitted from sick person to healthy person is very short. And this disease doesn't have an asymptomatic carrier state. So if someone has a smallpox, is infectious, and can transmit this infection to another person, then, at this time, this person already has obvious visual symptoms of a pox. And it's unlikely, that Aegon had sex with ugly whores, that were covered in a pox sores. So Aegon's pox was syphilis, a sexually transmitted disease. While Aegon's grandson, Maekar I Targaryen, had a smallpox, that left pox scars on his cheeks. Though we should mind that Aegon IV was a pure-blooded Targaryen (with Valyrian parents (Targaryen and Rogare), Targaryen grandparents; one Targaryen great-grandparent, and the other great-grandparent half-Targaryen half-Arryn), while Maekar was half-Martell, and thus it's likely, that he didn't inherited Targaryen immunity from his father.

So, only one of this options could be correct:

1. Aegon had Targaryen-immunity, and thus couldn't have contracted pox, nor transmitted it (if what makes Targaryens immune to diseases of normal people, is their dragon-blood, then all infections and bacterias and viruses are killed by this blood, and thus can't be transmitted to other people. Targaryens are not only immune, they also can't be asymptomatic carriers of any diseases, nor pass them to others);

2. Aegon wasn't immune, got infected with a pox, and transmitted it to his lovers, with both of whom he had sex at the same time - Falena Stokeworth and Jeyne Lothston.

But because only Jeyne supposedly got infected, it means, that this whole story about the pox, was a lie, and the purpose of it was to make an excuse, to send Jeyne away from court, as fast as possible, before anyone noticed her growing belly.

Furthermore, if only Jeyne got infected, then why did Aegon also sent Falena away? If Aegon was ill, and was really infecting his sex-partners with pox, then why did he continued to have sex, and how come Serenei of Lys didn't became infected?

And, if we will continue to read thru further history of Harrenhal, then it becomes obvious, that the possibility, that Aegon IV had a secret bastard-son at Harrenhal, is very likely.

Jeyne became Aegon's mistress in 178, and was sent back to Harrenhal soon after that. So, if she got pregnant, then her son was born in 178 or 179.

In 193 Ser Arlan of Pennytree unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in a melee at King's Landing (<- this is from The Hedge Knight novel).

Ser Arlan unhorsed both Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal. By giving to readers that information, GRRM gave a hint, that those two are connected. At that time Lothstons were rulers of Harrenhal, so the Bastard of Harrenhal was a bastard of Lothstones. Though, I think, that Lucas Lothston, who was the Lord of Harrenhal, presented Jeyne's son, as his bastard-son (similar to how Ned Stark presented his nephew Jon, as his bastard, to hide his real origin), and Jeyne had to hide, that she is that child's mother (or maybe she even died in childbirth).

House Lothston were involved in First Blackfyre Rebellion, Lucas' son, Manfred, first supported Daemon Blackfyre, but then betrayed him. There's a slight confusion in the books about Lucas' children. I think, that to knowledge of general public of 7K, Lucas had two sons - Manfred Lothston, and the Bastard of Harrenhal, known as Manfryd o' the Black Hood. My guess, is that under his black hood, this guy was hiding his Targaryen silver-gold hair (same as Shiera Seastar/Quaithe is hiding hers).

Then appeared House Whent. Originally they were knights in service of House Lothston, and then took part in their fall, and as a reward for that, received Harrenhal. So my guess, is that Danelle Lothston was falsely accused, and all nasty rumors about her were spread by the Bastard of Harrenhal/son of Jeyne Lothston/Manfryd o' the Black Hood, who thru his maternal grandmother, Falena, was bloodrelated to Lord Stokeworth, with whom together they had participated in that tournament in 193, and were both defeated by Ser Arlan. The Bastard of Harrenhal participated in tournament, so he was a knight, and he was in service of House Lothston (and he probably loathed, that he had to serve to them, and to be a mere knight, even though his real father was the King of 7K, and on his deathbed had legitimized all of his children (but not Manfryd, because officially he was Lucas' son, and not Aegon's with Jeyne), and his grandmother (Falena) and mother (Jeyne) were Ladies of Harrenhal).

Ben Blackthumb from Harrenhal had smithed for Lady Shella Whent, her father, her grandfather, and before that to House Lothston. Which means, that Shella's grandfather, the next Lord of Harrenhal after the last of Lothstons, was founder of House Whent. The Bastard of Harrenhal.

1. Petyr Baelish - 2. His father + Alayne - 3. hedge knight - 4. sellsword from Braavos - 5. the Bastard of Harrenhal + mistress (Black Pearl, or her sister, or daughter, or niece).

1. No children - 2. Wynafrei Whent + Danwell Frey, and four Whent brothers - 3. Shella + Walter - 4. Shella's father - 5. her grandfather (the Bastard of Harrenhal) + wife.

So, thru the Bastard of Harrenhal, Petyr Baelish is a descendant of Falena Stokeworth and Aegon IV Targaryen. And he was secretly gathering Targaryen tapestires. So, my guess, is that he will use them to welcome fAegon, and will urge people of 7K to support him. That's the scene, that Dany saw in the House of the Undying.

So Littlefinger is possibly GRRM's parallel to Biblical False Prophet, who told to people to make an image of the Beast out of the Sea (Antichrist, False Messiah), and to worship that image. The Beast out of the Sea had seven heads, and one of them was mortally wounded and then healed itself. Similar to fAegon's cover-story. And The Beast out of the Earth (the Prophet) had a dragon's voice and a lamb's horns. Littlefinger fits to that description, if he is a descendant of Aegon IV, Targaryen dragon, and Falena Stokeworth, because on the banner of this House there's a lamb. Furthermore, that lamb is holding golden goblet in his right front paw. While Agnus Dei, Lamb of God, the real Mesiah, avatar of Jesus, is holding a banner with a red cross on it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_of_God

 

So, the narrative point of Jeyne Lothston to have from Aegon a secret child, is to explain Littlefinger's involvement into Targaryen business, and his intentions concerning Iron Throne.

Thru Black Pearls of Braavos, and Brown Ben Plumm, GRRM gave to readers a small hint, that besides them, there still could be other descendants of Aegon the Unworthy, and that we should pay more attention to Aegon's children, because somewhere amonst them is hidden one of the big mysteries of ASOIAF. Or not. I could be wrong. It's just a theory.

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7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Bloodraven as Appolo

Appolo was God of the Sun, and he had a twin-sister, Goddess of the Moon, Artemis.

In my opinion, in universe, Bloodraven is a parallel to the Lion of Night of Yi Ti, and the Sun-and-Stars god of Dothraki. While Shiera is a parallel to the Maiden-made-of-Light, and the Moon Goddess of Dothaki, that was wife of the Sun.

ADWD, Jon I - " "Snow," the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

"Snow." An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. "Snow!" His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. "Snow, snow, snow!" He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew."

In that dream, Shiera was the moon, that was trying to talk to Jon, and the sun that was hiding in a cave, was Bloodraven. Ghost had sensed, that Summer (Bran's wolf) is also there. So the Children's cave is "the cave of night", which is possibly a hint, that the source of the Long Night is there. Because that's also where Bran saw the heart of winter. It seems, that Shiera was trying to show to Jon, where is Bran, but Bloodraven had skinchanged into Jon's raven, and woke Jon up.

God Appolo is often identified with Helios, and Artemis with Selene. In Japanese culture there's a legend about moon princess Serenity/Selenity. So, the name of Shiera's mother, Serenei, is a hint, that Shiera is connected to the moon. It's likely, that the moonstone brooch from TMK is Shiera's present to Bloodraven, while Shiera's silver necklaces with star sapphires and emeralds are Bloodraven's presents to her.

In several cultures lion is the symbol of the sun. Bloodraven is an albino, so he is a white lion. In the House of Black and White, there's a statue of the Lion of Night, and it's a man with a lion's head, and that statue is probably made from white material - "Beyond her was a man with a lion's head seated on a throne, carved of ebony." - AFFC, Arya I. The throne is black, and the statue is white, like the House.

Artemis was a goddess of chastity, she was a virgin.

I think, that Shiera is also a virgin, and that, even though she was Bloodraven's paramour, their relationship remained platonic.

When I was reading TMK, I noticed something, what Maynard/Bloodraven said, but at that time, I didn't thought, that it's something relevant:

" "This is the proper way to fill a pie," Ser Kyle sniffed, cleaning off his tunic. "The pie is meant to be the marriage, and a true marriage has in it many sorts of things—joy and grief, pain and pleasure, love and lust and loyalty. So it is fitting that there be birds of many sorts. No man ever truly knows what a new wife will bring him."

"Her cunt," said Plumm, "or what would be the point?" "

He was bitter about marriage, saying what's the point of getting married, if not to have sex. GRRM said about Shiera in SSM - Though she never wed, she had many offers, and several lovers through the years. ... Her most ardent admirer was her half-brother, Bloodraven, who proposed marriage to her half a hundred times. Shiera gave him her bed, but never her hand. It amused her more to make him jealous.

"Gave him her bed" doesn't equal to "had sex with him".

ADWD, Jon VI - " "Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall." " - I think, this means, that Shiera/Quaithe will give a kiss of life/fire to Jon.

I think, that she went to Westeros on the same ship as Sam and maester Aemon, the Cinnamon Wind. In the chapter, when they arrived to Oldtown, three times appeared crows (including banner with Euron's personal sigil, the Crow's Eye). The captain's name Quhuru Mo sounds very similar to Japanese "Ku furu mo" - くふる も - crows. When Dany was in Qarth, Quhuru Mo brought her news about Robert's death. At that time he also said to her, that their ship is sort of going to Asshai - ACOK, Dany II - " "When does your ship return to Westeros, Captain?" "Not for a year or more, I fear. From here the Cinnamon Wind sails east, to make the trader's circle round the Jade Sea." " But instead of going there, they went to Braavos, and then to Oldtown. I think, that their plans had changed, because six months before that, when they were departing from Oldtown, they were going to go to Asshai, to fetch Quaithe from there. But while they were on their way, Quaithe found out about Dany, and left Asshai, and went west, and got as far as Qarth. So, when Cinnamon Wind arrived to Qarth, Quaithe contacted them, and they aborted their trip to the Jade Sea, and instead went with Quaithe to Oldtown, via Braavos. And Quaithe didn't seemed to be present during Sam's voyage west, because either she shadow-glamoured herself to look like someone else, or she entirely concealed her presence from other people, and thru usage of magic, became invisible to them. She got off board, and switched to the Huntress ship, prior Cinnamon Wind was searched by Gunthor Hightower. So if the Huntress will appear somewhere later, in The North, then my guess, that Quaithe/Shiera went to Westeros was correct.

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Is it possible for Serenei to be a descendant of Saera Targaryen through her Lyseni son that looked like Jaehaerys II? + Is it possible for Daemon's father to be someone else? I don't think Daena would hide her son's paternity if the father was really Aegon and she was never part of Aegon's great lovers if I am not wrong. (Along with Naerys)

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Quotes to my post about Harrenhal and Aegon's bastards (and additional explanation, what it all could mean):

ACOK, Arya IX - "You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father before her and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents."

ASOS, Jaime VI - "He found an old shield in the armory, battered and splintered, the chipped paint still showing most of the great black bat of House Lothston upon a field of silver and gold. The Lothstons held Harrenhal before the Whents and had been a powerful family in their day, but they had died out ages ago, so no one was likely to object to him bearing their arms. He would be no one's cousin, no one's enemy, no one's sworn sword . . . in sum, no one."

AFFC, Brienne I - "Ser Illifer crooked a bony finger at her shield. Though its paint was cracked and peeling, the device it bore showed plain: a black bat on a field divided bendwise, silver and gold. "You bear a liar's shield, to which you have no right. My grandfather's grandfather helped kill the last o' Lothston. None since has dared to show that bat, black as the deeds of them that bore it." The shield was the one Ser Jaime had taken from the armory at Harrenhal. ... Ser Illifer paid him no mind. "A barefoot man looks for a boot, a chilly man a cloak. But who would cloak themselves in shame? Lord Lucas bore that bat, the Pander, and Manfryd o' the Black Hood, his son. Why wear such arms, I ask myself, unless your own sin is fouler still ." "

The Sworn Sword - ""If Daemon had ridden over Gwayne Corbray . . . if Fireball had not been slain on the eve of battle . . . if Hightower and Tarbeck and Oakheart and Butterwell had lent us their full strength instead of trying to keep one foot in each camp . . . if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous . . . if storms had not delayed Lord Bracken's sailing with the Myrish crossbowmen . . . if Quickfinger had not been caught with the stolen dragon's eggs . . . so many if s, ser . . . had any one come out differently, it could all have turned t'other way. Then we would called be the loyalists, and the red dragons would be remembered as men who fought to keep the usurper Daeron the Falseborn upon his stolen throne, and failed.""

The World Book - "Newly wed to the Lady Falena Stokeworth, following the scandal of her relations with Prince Aegon, the future Aegon the Unworthy, Lothston soon departed court with his bride. He returned to King's Landing in Aegon's reign, serving as Hand for less than a year before Aegon again banished him from court along with his wife and daughter. Their line was ended in madness and chaos when Lady Danelle Lothston turned to the black arts during the reign of King Maekar I."

The Mystery Knight - "Mad Danelle Lothston herself rode forth in strength from her haunted towers at Harrenhal, clad in black armor that fit her like an iron glove, her long red hair streaming."

AFFC, Jaime III - "He found himself remembering tales he had first heard as a child at Casterly Rock, of mad Lady Lothston who bathed in tubs of blood and presided over feasts of human flesh within these very walls."

The Hedge Knight - ""I remember Ser Arlan of Pennytree," the man in the high seat said quietly. "He never won a tourney that I know, but he never shamed himself either. At King's Landing sixteen years ago, he overthrew Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in the melee, and many years before at Lannisport he unhorsed the Grey Lion himself. The lion was not so grey then, to be sure.""

~~~

AFFC, Alayne I - "That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Or about the sellsword before him, whose limbs Ser Gregor removed a joint at a time? That one took the castle from Ser Amory Lorch, who received it from Lord Tywin. A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs . . . Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it." "

ACOK, Tyrion IV - " "Harrenhal." It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter. Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored."

 

- And still, Littlefinger wants to keep it, because as a (possible) descendant of the firstborn son of the first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, he has more rights to Harrenhal, than ancestors of Shella Whent ever had. In my opinion, the Bastard of Harrenhal first went to Braavos, to get in contact with Aegon's other unacknowledged bastards, such as children of Bellegere Otherys, fathered there a son (LF's great great grandfather), but then returned to Westeros, re-married there, and with his new wife had other children, and together with them founded House Whent. So his children from his second marriage, got Harrenhal, while his firstborn son from Braavos, got nothing.

 

The World Book, Aegon IV - "His last act before his death, all accounts agree, was to set out his will. And in it, he left the bitterest poison the realm ever knew: he legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth. Scores of his natural children had never been acknowledged; Aegon's dying declaration meant naught to them. For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal. And for the realm, it meant blood and fire for five generations."

TWB, Daeron II - "Daeron did not stop there, however, in his efforts to improve those things that his father had corrupted or had left to rot through malign neglect. He was conscientious in his duties to the realm and sought to stabilize it in the wake of Aegon's deathbed decree, which legitimized all his bastard half siblings. Although he could not—and would not—rescind his father's last wishes, he did what he could to keep the Great Bastards close, treating them honorably and continuing the incomes that the king had bestowed on them. He paid the dowry that Aegon had promised to the Archon of Tyrosh, thereby seeing his half brother Daemon Blackfyre wed to Rohanne of Tyrosh as Aegon had desired, for all that Ser Daemon was only four-and-ten. On their wedding day, he granted Daemon a tract of land near the Blackwater, with the right to raise a castle. Some said he did such things to assert his rule and legitimacy over the Great Bastards, and others because he was kind and just. But whatever the truth, such efforts sadly proved in vain."

The Mystery Knight - "Lord Butterwell was the master of coin when King Aegon sat the Iron Throne. King Daeron made him Hand, but not for long."

TMK - " "Was it a reward for some act of valor?" asked Dunk. Ser Kyle chuckled. "Some might call it that. Supposedly old Lord Butterwell had three young maiden daughters when His Grace came calling. By morning, all three had royal bastards in their little bellies. A hot night's work, that was." Dunk had heard such talk before. Aegon the Unworthy had bedded half the maidens in the realm and fathered bastards on the lot of them, supposedly. Worse, the old king had legitimized them all upon his deathbed; the baseborn ones born of tavern wenches, whores, and shepherd girls, and the Great Bastards whose mothers had been highborn. "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true." "

The World Book, Aegon IV - "His affair with the Black Pearl continued for ten years, though it was said that Bellegere had a husband in every port and that Aegon was but one of many. She gave birth to three children during the decade, two girls and a boy of doubtful paternity."

 

So, there was a big difference between people, that were known to be Aegon's children, and those, whom he never admitted to father. Daemon Blackfyre had Aegon's sword to prove his paternity. And King Daeron paid his dowry, gave him land, etc. Bloodraven was made the King's Hand. Ambrose Butterwell, who had a dragon's egg to prove, that he is half-Targaryen, was given a post of Master of Coin, and for some short time even became the King's Hand. While the Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfryd, had nothing, same as his mother, Jeyne Lothston. Lucas Lothston, even though he acknowledged Jeyne as his legitimate daughter, and Manfryd as his bastard, neither of them inherited Harrenhal. It was given to Lucas' other relatives, to his actual relatives, because he wasn't connected to Jeyne by blood.

So, there was a reason for the Bastard of Harrenhal to have a grudge against both Lothstons and Targaryens. So, first he tried to side with Blackfyres, and gave to Daemon his support during First Rebellion. Though, for some reason later he changes his mind, and betrayed Blackfyres. Probably, he decided to try a different method of getting acknowledgement as Aegon's child.

In 178 Jeyne Lothston was 14 years old (14 in 178, later same year turning 15, makes 163 as the year of her birth, and either 163 or 162 as the year of her conception; already had her birthday in 178, makes 164 the year of her birth, and 164 or 163 as the year of her conception). So Jeyne was conceived in 162, 163, or 164. Bellegere Otherys was in a relationship with Aegon for a decade, 161-171. So, based on Aegon sharing his bed with Falene Stokeworth and Jeyne Lothston, or with all three daughters of Lord Butterwell, it's fairly likely, that when Aegon had sex with Falena Stokeworth in 162-164, and impregnated her, they had sex in a threesome - Aegon, Falena, and Bellegere Otherys. So Bellegere could have confirmed, that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's child. So that could be the reason, why the Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfryd, went to Braavos, to get evidences to prove, that he is one of Targaryen bastards.

Though, even if Bellegere agreed to give information to him, it didn't helped him much. Because to the knowledge of general public, Jeyne Lothston was daughter of Lucas Lothston, and the Bastard of Harrenhal was a bastard-son of Lucas Lothston, and some unknown woman. While actually both Jeyne and Manfryd were Aegon's children.

Thus, even if they have revealed to general public, that Lucas had lied, and that Manfryd is actually Jeyne's son, and Jeyne is Aegon's daughter, which makes Manfryd Aegon's grandson, it wouldn't have gave Manfryd any right to claim Harrenhal (and he thought, that by right, Harrenhal should belong to him, because Lucas Lothston was given Harrenhal only because of Falena, because she was Aegon's woman, so Harrenhal was a gift to her - at least, that's what he probably thought). And Aegon had many other children and grandchildren, so even being acknowledged as one of them, wouldn't have given Manfryd anything valuable. He would have been just one out of many.

Though, he could have claimed, that Jeyne is Lucas' daughter, while only Manfryd is Aegon's offspring, which would have gave him a claim over Harrenhal (as son of Jeyne Lothston, and Lucas' grandson), and his Targaryen-relatives could have supported his claim against other heirs of Lucas Lothston (Jeyne's rivals for inherritance of Harrenhal). But for that to happen, he needed a public confession from Jeyne or Lucas, that he is Jeyne's son from Aegon, and not Lucas' bastard, what they made everyone to believe before. Though, it's likely, that by that time Lucas was already dead, and Jeyne also either died (in childbirth, or from old age, or disease), or refused to admit, that she and King Aegon had a child. Because of those rumors, that she herself was Aegon's daughter. So, if she confessed, that she had a child with Aegon, it would have caused her serious problems. She would have been accused of incest with a man, who was her father. The Faith could have executed her for that, or forced her to become a septa, or a Silent Sister. So, it's unlikely, that she would have taken such risks, just because her son wanted to be acknowledged as someone important, with claims over castles.

So, Manfryd was pursuing various paths for being acknowledged, but all of them eventually failed. In the process he also had fathered a son in Braavos, or maybe even several children, with one of Black Pearls, or a girl bloodrelated to the Pearls. Then he returned to Westeros, and tried a new approach. What Jaime thought - "so no one was likely to object to him bearing their arms. He would be no one's cousin, no one's enemy, no one's sworn sword . . . in sum, no one". Manfryd came to Harrenhal, years after departing to Braavos, he had different looks, diffrent name, and people from Harrenhal, that used to know him, as the Bastard of Harrenhal, weren't there anymore. So he "reinvented" himself, became a Whent, and entered into service of House Lothston, and took on their arms, the black bats of Harrenhal. Lothstons had one bat on their banner/shield, and the Knight Whent for his sigil/banner/shield took nine bats. And then, while for years he was pretending to be loyal retainer of House Lothston, from the shadows he was orchestrating their dawnfall, spreading horrible rumors about Danelle Lothston, and making some of those things, in which she was accused (such as occasionally kidnapping and murdering someone's child, and staging it to look like a work of a witch, that bathes in blood of innocents, or a giant bat - like draining all the blood from the body, etc.). And after Lothsons were obliterated, he got what he always wanted - Harrenhal. So he was Shella Whent's grandfather, first Lord Whent of Harrenhal, and great great grandfather of Catelyn Tully (whose mother was Minisa Whent) and Petyr Baelish (descendant of the Bastard's firstborn child, the sellsword from Braavos).

Danelle Lothston was a red-head, same as Minisa Whent, Catelyn, Lysa, and some of Cat's children. Which is possibly a proove, that Whents were bloodrelated to Lothstons. On Jeyne Lothston's picture in The World Book, it seems, that her hair color is something like strawberry blond - a very pale shade of red hair. It's possible, that Lucas and his Lothston-relatives had red hair, Falena was a carrier of one red allele, Aegon could have also been a carrier of one such allele, so he was "blond", but there was a possibility for his children or grandchildren to be red-heads. Aegon's daughter Jeyne had pale shade of red hair; his son Manfryd had silver-gold hair, but with his Braavosi wife he had descendants with dark hair (such as Littlefinger), and with his Whent wife, he had red-haired descendants (such as Minisa, Catelyn, Sansa, etc.). Aegon could have got his recessive red-hair allele from his mother, Larra Rogare. I think, that Larra's mother was Johanna Swann. House Swann is in Stormlands, their castle is situated in the middle between Dondarrions and Conningtons, and those are all red-heads, so it's likely, that Swanns intermarried with their red neighbors. So Johanna was a carrier of one red allele, and passed it to her daughter Larra, and her grandson Aegon IV, who passed it to some of his children, and in some of his grandchildren, from House Whent, in combination with additional red-hair allele, that they received from a different ancestor, their descendants were red-heads (such as Tully girls).

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On 5/30/2019 at 5:46 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm really uncertain of the idea that Sernei was Larra. It doesn't feel right to me, but again without quotes to back up the theory it is very hard to decide if you buy into the idea or not.  I'm also not a big fan of everyone is secretly someone else theories as I feel they cheapen the story quite a lot. Hidden identities have to make sense narratively. And if we are going to say that Serenei was Larra simply because they are both from Lys then hell lets go the whole hog and declare Lady Misery is Larra, is Serenei. and so on.  

I'm quite willing to look at the idea with quotes and reasoning as to why you think this though.

Ok, with quotes and reasoning.

I think, that Serenei and Larra are the same person, not only because they both are from Lys, and both are sorceresses, but also because of this:

1. On Larra's page, here - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Larra_Rogare

it is written that she died in 145 at Lys. The source of that information is link 4, on the bottom of the page, The World of Ice and Fire AMA, this -

https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Transcripts/Entry/The_World_of_Ice_and_Fire_AMA

"Following the release of The World of Ice and Fire, we invited players on the game to an “AMA” inspired session of talk about the book.

...

Elmer says, “I had a question. Larra Rogare is mentioned to have left Westeros at some point…do we know when? I assume she’s not present in our timeline?

Jyana says, “I’m flipping through, too, but all my questions would be of the, “Can we have someone from Yi Ti show up at some point?” variety, which. Y’know.”

Balerion says, “Not opposed to some plot where a scholar or adventurer of Yi Ti comes along to record the histories of the barbarians out west.”

Balerion says, “Larra’s not around. Let me see…”

You say, “That reminds me, there are a few things we need to get into the family trees now that the book is out, stuff we felt was too spoilery beforehand.”

Balerion says, “Oh, another feast day: Smith’s Day”

Balerion says, “So, yeah, the Seven each have a feast day except maybe the Stranger…”

Jyana says, “Don’t think I’m not tucking that Yi Ti thing away for later.”

Balerion says, “There it is. She goes back to Lys in 139, and passes away in 145.

Elmer says, “Thanks!” "

 

Though, in The World Book -

"After his years as a hostage in Lys following the Dance, Viserys returned to King’s Landing with a beautiful Lyseni bride, Larra Rogare, the daughter of a wealthy and influential noble house. Tall and willowy, with the silver-gold hair and purple eyes of Valyria (for the blood still runs strong in Lys), she was seven years Viserys’s elder. She was also a woman who never felt a part of the court and was never truly happy there. Yet she gave him three children before she at last returned to her native Lys.

The eldest was Aegon, born in the Red Keep in 135 AC after Viserys’s return from Lys. He was a robust lad who grew to be handsome and charming, and also irresponsible and capricious, devoted to his pleasures. He caused his father much trouble and toil, and the realm much pain.

In 136 AC, Aemon followed. He was as robust as Aegon as an infant, and as beautiful to look upon, but his brother’s faults were not in him. He proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his age—a knight worthy to bear Dark Sister. He became known as the Dragonknight for the three-headed dragon crest wrought in white gold upon his helm. To this very day some call him the noblest knight who ever lived and one of the most storied names to ever serve in the Kingsguard.

The last of Viserys’s children was his only daughter, Naerys, born in 138 AC."

- there is no further mentioning of Larra, besides her returning to her native Lys, after she gave birth to Viserys' three children. There's no even mentioning of when exactly did she left, how much time passed since Naerys' birth. And absolutely zero information besides that. The year 145, as the year of Larra's supposed death, appeared out of nowhere, because this wasn't written in the paper version of The World Book.

Though, even if what those people were flipping through was The World APP, and not The World of Ice and Fire book, it's still possible, that Larra didn't actually died in 145, she just faked her death, same how it was done by Jon Connington, who supposedly drunk himself to death, while actually he just took a new identity, and became Griff.

2. About Serenei GRRM said here -

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Shiera_Seastar

" "Sweet Serenei," Aegon called her, but about his court she was considered cold and haughty, and some said that she was much older than the king, and preserved her beauty by the practice of dark arts."

Thus, it is possible, that Serenei actually was Larra, who was born in 115, and thus, at the time, when she was brought to Aegon's court, and became his last mistress, in 184 at the time of her death and Shiera's birth, she was 69 years old, but looked like a woman in her 40s. Aegon died aged 49. If Serenei was Larra, then she was 20 years older than Aegon, but didn't looked that old, because, same as later Shiera, Larra/Serenei was bathing in blood, to prevent her aging. Quaithe, who is Shiera Seastar, in 300 AC is 115 or 116 years old, but she's significally more lively, than maester Aemon was, who was only 102 at the time of his death. Magic do wonders for a woman's beauty.

Unlike her half-siblings, Shiera was never a Waters or Rivers, or whatever. So I assume, that she was born not a bastard. Aegon had legitimized all of his children on his deathbed, in case if Shiera was born after his death, she was born as his legitimate child. That's why she was Shiera Seastar, and not Shiera Waters.

About Aegon's death in The World Book, Aegon IV -

"The king himself died a horrible death, his body so swollen and obese that he could no longer lift himself from his couch, his limbs rotting and crawling with fleshworms. The maesters claimed they had never seen its like, whilst septons declared it a judgment of the gods. Aegon was given milk of the poppy to dull his pain, but elsewise little could be done for him.

His last act before his death, all accounts agree, was to set out his will. And in it, he left the bitterest poison the realm ever knew: he legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards - the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth."

I think, that Aegon's death wasn't natural, it was caused my magic. Larra/Serenei was draining Aegon's life-force to use it, and her own life, and her power and magic, to make their unborn child, the fruit of incest between mother and son, into the most powerfull magician in the world. Because Larra/Serenei knew, that her baby will become a key figure in the upcoming war against the Others. Shiera Seastar is the Three-Eyed Crow. And in the books that being is nothing like the Tree-Eyed Raven in that other media. Those two are completely different concepts.

And it was necessary for Serenei's child to have as much Targaryen dragongenes as possible, and to be a child of incest. It's something similar to Craster and his daughters-wives, and sons-grandsons, whom he was sacrifcing to the Others. He could have taken other women as his wives, not necessary his own daughters. But he made his daughters to be his wives, because incest, and thru it unchanging of genes, is necessary for whatever unexplained yet in the books reason.

Serenei forced/tricked/convinced Aegon to legitimize his children, before he will die, because it was what she needed for Shiera, also for unexplained yet reason.

3. In The World Book there's a picture of Larra and of Serenei:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Larra_Rogare.png

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:Serenei_of_Lys.jpg

To me they look like the same woman.

Same eye color, same shape of lips and nose, same chin, same shape of ears (also not pierced in both cases), same slightly wavy blond hair. On second picture her skin became paler, the color of her lips became less red and more pink, the color of her hair became more silver than gold. The lines from the wings of her nose to corners of her lips became more prominent. Her eyes became more heavy lidded. She changed her hairstyle. But her hair-line is the same, it can't be changed.

Just draw an imaginary line upwards from her nose bridge to her hair - both Larra and Serenei have a little widow's peak slightly to the left from that line, and a hair partition, that goes back from forehead to crown of the head. Though, while Larra was holding back her hair from falling into her face, by dividing it into two parts, to the right and left, and weaving it into something like French Braids, that went from above the middle of her forehead to her ears, and Serenei was combing her hair backwards, over her hair partition, that started at widow's peak, to cover it, and gathered her hair into Chignon.

They also have identical face proportitions. There are special computer programs, with which you can identify, whether it's the same person. Those programs can't be used for digital art, such as the World Book's pictures, but the principle, on which those programs operate, still could be used. The point of those programs, is that they place marker-dots in certain places of the face, such as corners of eyes, and pupils, corners and the middle of lips, on nose bridge, on the tip of the nose, several on the cheekbones, etc. Even when people age, even if they will got thru a plastic surgery, the proportions of the face won't change, and the scheme made of those markers won't change. Using that method police can identify a grown up person, as a child, that was kidnapped or lost many years ago, or to identify a skull of a dead person, by using that program. Those programs are often used in TV-series such as Bones, CSI, Law & Order, etc.

So, based on their pictures, Larra and Serenei is the same person. Maybe it's just a coincidence, that they look so much alike, maybe the artist of those pictures (Magali Villeneuve) just used the same template for their portraits, but out of all other portraits of various women in the World Book, only those two are so similar.

So my theory is based on those three points (missing year of Larra's death, what GRRM said about Serenei's age (the nature of Aegon's death), and similarity of their portraits).

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@Megorova 

I agree there are clues that there is a Targaryen child in the Lothston bloodline. I Just think you are wrong about who it is. Even the Lothston arms have a clue via the silver and gold colours - associated with Targayen hair.  But I laid out why Jeyne is unlikely to be his daughter already. The dates are simply wrong. If Manfryd/Manfred is the son though he can simply be older, conceived within those two years he was visiting Harrenhall. And if the first borns of Targaryen men take after the mothers rule holds true. He can be passed off more easily as Lucus Lothstons. That messes with the Black hood being about hiding his hair idea. but lets face it is a bit lame. as if no one would notice his hair being Targ Blonde under neath it or ever see him without it.

I think the clue is the one about BR, that he goes about cloaked and hooded because of his photo-sensitivity. We are directly told why a person might wear a hood. And then given a second character famously hooded. That is more in line with GRRM's other character links such as Bald as an egg being used to describe both Egg and Varys to hint at Varys's Targaryen heritage. And Jon's eyes so dark a grey they looked black which again links to Egg whose eyes are so dark a purple so as to appear black.  Not all people with albinism are white haired and red eyed. In fact that is the extreme end of the condition. So Manyfryd could have his mothers colouring. Like I said before we have no in world description for a Stokeworth other than Lollys having brown eyes. But certainly a brown eyed Manfryd could still have albinism and thus be photosensitive.  

At any rate it is about linking the man to the Targaryens. Alongside the gold and silver on the sigil and the other information. 

I also agree that the Whents may well be blood related to the Lothstons. The Bats are a clue. And so is Danelle's hair. But I can't for the life of me see where you are getting this idea that Peytr Baelish is related from. There is no link between him and the Lothstons. I find your tendency to pluck an idea out of the air and then run with it as if it is fact really off putting. And I'm afraid it causes me to dismiss a lot of your ideas. I'm trying very hard to stop and really read though. So please don't take offence. But this sudden leap from talking about Lothstons as potential Targaryen blooded to Baelish being so happens without any logical explanation.  You are basing it on his grandfather being a landless hedge knight. When this is simply an explanation for his resentment of the power of the upper nobility and how he was rejected by Lord Tully for having too lowly a heritage.  So LF's grandfather was a hedge knight from Braavos, and you take this to mean his grandfather was the bastard of Harrenhall. Why? because there is a link between Aegon IV and Braavos? There is no basis for this link I can think of which lends it weight. Aegon having been to Braavos doesn't mean everyone who is from Braavos is his relation, This is why we get ridiculous theories such as Syrio = Jaquen as both are from Braavos. These links can be used to support an idea but they only work if that theory has other support too. Otherwise we might as well say. Oh I don't know.  That everyone is Westeros is a Targaryen because westeros was once ruled by them. 

Likewise the idea that Aegon IV's rumoured threesome with Falana and Jeyne means he definitely had a threesome with Falena and Bellegere? Why? by what logic we are never told that Belegere came to westeros and his affair with her happened years  after his affair with Falana. We are told Aegon began his affair with her whilst he was an envoy to Braavos. So he is visiting her there. GRRM didn't mention anything that implies she ever came to Westeros. She's a pirate or a trader if she ever did it would have been Old Town or KL she visited, maybe White Harbour. But there is no link to the RL's for a pirate and no clues in the text at all.  And the daughters of Lord Butterwell would make a foursome. If he romped with them all together. But that is never stated. He might have visited them all seperatley or frankly not at all. It is but a rumour. Especially when you take into account your own idea that the dragons egg comes as a gift for his bastard. Then in that case he ought to have gifted three eggs, one for each child. My guess is that only one daughter of the house entertained him and that only one was left with child.  Remember not every rumour is fact. You have to fish to work it out. Otherwise lets just read The Testimony of Mushroom to discern what happened during the dance.  

And then Larra or Serenei. You have attempted to provide evidence that they are the same woman but it is far from convincing. You think that the date given for Larra's death may be false and yet we have no reason to think that. There is no clue in the world book that implies she faked her death. You are just plucking the idea from your own imagination. As to the date being semi cannon allow me to explain. That conversation is from the Mush. This is the role play game which uses author approved info to expand the setting and create a game were we can be our own adventurer through asoiaf. If you come across info in the wiki which is described as semi cannon it is from the mush. The names of the people conversing are the guys who organise the game. So there you have it the date for her death is author approved. That doesn't mean he can't pr won't change it for F&B II he might decide he has an idea that alters her date of death for some reason but it means he has no mysterious fate in mind otherwise he'd not approve a date for her death or we would have some vague answer.  So aside from your decision that Oh I don't know who these people are pr what they are talking about so the date is false assumption you seem to be basing this idea on the rumour that she is older than she appears a rumour we see about several women in ASOIAF and which sounds suspiciously like plain old sexist ageism. is women have a best before date. And saying a woman is older than she claims is an easy shot to fire when wishing to disparage her. Serenei was a foreigner who was really unpopular at court due to her haughty attitude. Yeah people are gonna say all sorts of shit about her.  Especially other women, sadly, due to the way patriarchy works it effectively pitches women into competition against one another as women seek status through relationships to and with males and therefore better treatment as a result.  Serenei may have been a sorceress, she may have been older than Aegon but don't assume this means the rumours are absolutely true I remind you again remember what Egg tells Dunk about Rohanne. Remember what the smallfolk said about Sansa. Bathing in blood is in my opinion a real clue that people are exaggerating about these women. It's a magic which we have seen no evidence of in the text despite hearing of blood magic non of the magic we have seen involves blood on that scale or used in that way.

The biggest clue is that Serenei has a baby at all. Most women begin their menopause at around 45-55 years old. With fertility declining rapidly at about 35. So for serenei to get pregnant at all means she isn't any older than her early 50's at the absolute limit.  We've yet to see any magic which can counter biology in that way. Mel births magical shadows but they are not human babies who grow and age as normal and look indistinguishable to others. Visenya may have used some magic. But this is mostly fan theory and has little real evidence. We learn Aegon was under pressure to take a third wife and so it stands to reason taht he simply closed his eyes and got on with it till she was with child. Visenya being almost 40 makes this hard but as I've explained not impossible.  In fact it is about 5% in every cycle.

Alys Rivers is another but again her exaggerated age is only rumoured and frankly Mushroom is not the most reliable of sources. And again he uses the bathes in blood trope and claims all her own babes are stillborn.  And I have to say that the bathing in blood trope is often coupled with some sort of sacrifice or killing of babies. Again this is simply a sexist trope a woman with knowledge or independent power is seen as unnatural in a patriarchal society therefore they are accused of "unnatural" crimes crimes which go against the very nature of woman as they see it. The maternal instinct. Again we go back to Egg telling Dunk of Rohanne's supposed atrocities. he says this in TSS. 

 "Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops' wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts."

GRRM is very aware of these accusations being a thing in our own world. He's no slacker when it comes to studying history to inspire his writing. So no I really would not take the rumours about bathing in blood to maintain beauty as a real thing.   He does in fact give us a character who does use magic to project a more beautiful visage and that is Mellisandre who we can ascertain uses Glamour.  So I'd be looking for a large jewel associated with Serenei if she was hiding her true age. 

As to the images in the world book, personally no I do not feel they look identical I see similarities but one thing which myself and many others commented on when the world book came out was how similar the illustrations of women where over all. If you look at his portrait of Rhaenarya she has the same spacing and feature shapes too. Not to mention that we simply can not take the illustrations as cannon. It has never been implied they are.  I can't see any merit in this idea at all. As it hinges on your own interpretation of a picture,  your own feelings about a date given for her death, and a rumour grounded in sexism which crops up repeatedly in relation to various female characters but which has no grounding in the magic we actually see used in world. 

 

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11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Especially when you take into account your own idea that the dragons egg comes as a gift for his bastard. Then in that case he ought to have gifted three eggs, one for each child.

Only one egg, because there was only one boy, and the others were either girls, or were stillborn or miscarried. A lot of Targaryen pregnancies ended without a baby. Out of 5 of Naerys' children only 2 survived, out of Queen Rhaella's 11 pregnancies, only 3 babies lived. So, even though if all three daughters of Lord Butterwell were pregnant, after spending that night with Aegon, it's likely, that afterwards only one baby survived. Or because of Aegon's chauvinistic nature, he deemed that only a son is worthy of presenting him with a dragon egg.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But I can't for the life of me see where you are getting this idea that Peytr Baelish is related from. There is no link between him and the Lothstons. I find your tendency to pluck an idea out of the air and then run with it as if it is fact really off putting. And I'm afraid it causes me to dismiss a lot of your ideas. I'm trying very hard to stop and really read though. So please don't take offence. But this sudden leap from talking about Lothstons as potential Targaryen blooded to Baelish being so happens without any logical explanation.

There's a lot of vague elements, that in connection with each other form a possibility, that Littlefinger is a descendant of the same person, who founded House Whent, and was bloodrelated to Lothsons, and on the other side of his family was bloodrelated to Black Pearls of Braavos and Blackfyres. But it's hard to explain.

Braavos and cats. Arya's "Cat" chapter in ADWD, her warging into a cat (she's partially Whent, same as LF. And their common ancestor was Larra Rogare, who according to rumors was able to turn into a cat. Probably, she actually was a cat-warg, or someting like that). Syrio Forel (Arya's teacher), the Sealord of Braavos, and the mystery-cat. LF's great great grandfather was from Braavos. Littlefinger's cat-like eyes. Littlefinger is owner of brothels. Aegon's descendants in Braavos are courtesans, Black Pearls (same industry as LF's). The Sealord of Braavos was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys (Aegon IV's mistress), first Black Pearl of Braavos. LF's obsession with Tully girls, that are half-Whents, and thus descendants of Aegon IV, same as LF himself. Catelyn's name, Cat and Catelyn instead of Katelyn and Kate. LF had sent one of Kettleblacks to Braavos, to hire Penny and Oppo. Even though there are mummer-dwarfs even in Westeros. But he wanted specifically those dwarfs to perform on Joffrey's wedding. Years ago this same dwarfs performed for the Sealord of Braavos, and as a reward for that, he (possibly) gave to them three dragon eggs (those that Elissa Farman stole from Targaryens). And then those same eggs were given by Illyrio to Dany, as her wedding present. It's likely, that Hop-Bean used to belong to mummers troupe, that was owned by Illyrio, or Varys. Varys used to be a mummer. Then his owners sold him to a sorcerer, who used him as a sacrifice in a blood-magic ritual. So, it's likely, that when Varys became free and rich, he bought that troupe, that sold him, and it was the same troupe as Hop-Bean's (before he became free). It's likely, that the Sealord with dragon eggs, the Sealord with a cat, and the Sealord, that arranged an engagement between Viserys Targaryen and Arianne Martell, is the same person - Ferrego Antaryon, who now is sickly and failing, possibly from old age. During the Battle at Redgrass Field, Daemon Blackfyre had a duel with Kingsguard Gwayne Corbray. Littlefinger's great great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos, when he moved to live in Westeros, was working for Lord Corbray. Daemon Blackfyre, after defeating Gwayne, spared his life, and ordered to give him medical help, and to get him off the battlefield. So House Corbray were indebted to House Blackfyre. After Daemon's death, his wife and at least 7 children, went to Essos. Those children were first cousins to children of Bellenora, Narha, and Balerion Otheryses. It's likely, that when Blackfyres and Otheryses lived in Essos, they got in contact. That sellsword (LF's ancestor), could have been grandson, or great-grandson of Bellegere Otherys, and was bloodrelated to Blackfyres. So, when he went to Westeros, Blackfyres asked Lord Corbray, who was indebted to them, to hire that sellsword into his service, as a way to repay for Daemon's mercy, given to one of Corbrays.

All that

+ what I wrote in post 7, starting with "In 193 Ser Arlan of Pennytree unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in a melee at King's Landing" (which explains why and how House Whent are descendants of Aegon IV, and why Littlefinger was obsessed with Cat and Lysa; and the reason why Whents took part in the fall of House Lothston, and then became rulers of Harrenhal)

+ post 10, starting with "So, there was a big difference between people, that were known to be Aegon's children, and those, whom he never admitted to father." (which explains the reason why and how the Bastard of Harrenhal could have went to Braavos, to meet there his relatives, that were unacknowledged by Targaryens, same as him - children of Bellegere Otherys; also possibly because Bellegere could have been able to confirm, that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's child;

or because Otheryses had three dragon eggs, that previously belonged to Targaryens. The Sealord of Braavos, that got those eggs from Elissa Farman, could be ancestor of the Sealord of Braavos, that was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys, who could be ancestor of the current Sealord of Braavos (the one that gave Targaryen dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs, Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo). So the Bastard, or his son could have went to Braavos to get those eggs. Bellegere's and Sealord's relatives could have kept those eggs in their family, for many generations, hoping that they will be able to hatch them. Possibly Bellegere's encounter with Aegon wasn't accidental. It's possible, that she was sent by her grandfather, the Sealord, to seduce Aegon, and to get pregnant from him, because they hoped, that her dragonseed-children will be able to hatch those dragon eggs. Though it didn't happened. But Bellegere could have told Aegon, or Falena, or Jeyne, or someone else, or it was a common knowledge, that Bellegere's family owned three dragon eggs, that their ancestor got from Elissa Farman. So, using similar sceme, the Bastard or his son (already a Whent, or not yet a Whent) could have went to Braavos, seduced one of Black Pearls, or her relative, and had a child with her, hoping that their baby will be able to hatch one of those dragon eggs. So that's how was born LF's great great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos;

+ we don't have a specific time-frame for LF's ancestors, when did they lived, but there is a Targaryen family tree with specific dates, there's family tree of Starks, a bit of info about House Tully-Whent, and about Whents of Harrenhal and Lothstons. So, based on that information, it seems, that LF's great great grandfather was from the same generation as Shella Whent's grandfather. House Corbray, to whom served that sellsword, when he arrived from Braavos to 7K, ties together him and LF with Blackfyres. And those other elements (from above in this post) tie together LF, Braavos and Black Pearls.

+ there's a lot of parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible. fAegon and Golden Company seems to be a parallel to Antichrist, the Beast out of the Sea. It had seven heads, and one of those heads was mortally wounded, and then healed itself. Which is similar to fAegon's cover story, that he is supposedly son of Rhaegar Targaryen, even though that baby got killed, his head was smashed. In the Bible, after appearance of the first beast, appeared the Beast out of the Earth, it had dragon's voice and lamb's horns. This other beast told to people to worship the first Beast, and to make his/Antichrist's images and worship those images. Which is similar to LF secretly gathering Targaryen tapesties. Why would he be gathering them, if not to use them to welcome fAegon, and arrange what Dany saw in her vision about Mummer's dragon? If LF is descendant of Falena Stokeworth, then methaphorically he has lamb's horns, because there's a lamb on banner of House Stokeworth. And if he is descendant of Aegon IV, then he has a dragon's voice, i.e. because he is a dragonseed, has a bit of Targaryen genes;

+ LF's personal sigil, mockingbird, could be a hint, that he used to be one of Varys' agents. It's obvious from the books, that Varys' people are not only orphants, or mute street urchins. LF, knowing so much information about Varys, is also a clue, that they used to be working together, prior LF betrayed Varys, and went independent, to play his own Game of Thrones. Also, it seems that LF's plan is actually Varys' plan, only he altered it a bit, and set things in motion several years prior the date, that was planned by Varys;

+ several other elements.

 

All of that combined together forms a likely possibility, that LF is a dragonseed, and is bloodrelated to Whents, Lothstons, Otheryses, Blackfyres, and even to Varys.    

And it's all so complicated, because readers are not supposed to figure out who LF actually is (that he is Aegon IV's descendant, and bloodrelated to Cat and Sansa, and Varys, and fAegon), and why is he doing whatever he is doing, what's his motivation and his goal in his Game of Thrones.

 

(Edit: Why is it relevant, that GRRM wrote, that Ser Arlan unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal, what's the usefulness of this info? -> It was said about Ser Arlan, that basically he was a so so jouster - he never won any tournaments. His greatest accomplishments was to break four lances against Baelor Breakspear, and to unhorse Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal. So, based on this information, I think that Arlan, who was a so so jouster, was able to unhorse Lord Stokeworth, because Lord Stokeworth was an old man, well past his prime, and the Bastard was also easy to defeat, because he was just a teenager, and didn't had a lot of jousting experience.

If this Bastard is son of Jeyne Lothston, then he was born in 178 or 179, and thus in 193 was 14-16 years old. While Lord Stokeworth, if he was Falena's brother, or cousin, or something like that, in 193 was 58 or so years old (or 68) <- Falena was about the same age as Aegon, or maybe even a bit older than him (edit: she was 10 years older than Aegon. Though that Lord Stokeworth could have been Falena's slightly younger brother). Or that Lord Stokeworth could have been even from the next generation after Falena's, something like her nephew, so he could have been 50 or so years old, still older than Ser Arlan.

If Aegon was still alive in 193, then he would have been 58 years old. Barristan Selmy during the Hand's tourney in his first two tilts defeated men thirty and forty years younger than him, at that time (in 298) he was 61 or 62 years old. And there's Gawen Swann, who participated in Tournament at Ashford Meadow, in 209, and at that time was an old man.

So, if Lord Stokeworth was from the same generation as Falena, and was old, he could have still participated in that tournament, same as Barristan or Lord Swann in theirs. While Ser Arlan in 193 was 40-44 years old. So for him to defeat a guy, who was approximately 14-18 years older than him, and a guy, who was 24-30 years younger than him and didn't had a lot of experience, was a piece of cake.

So GRRM, by giving to us information about Arlan's accomplishments, not only hinted that Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard are connected, blood-related, but also how old are they, that the possible reason of their defeat is their age in relevance to Arlan's age at that time, and it's an additional clue, that the Bastard, who then was very young, possibly was Jeyne's son, born in 178 or 179, after she left Aegon's court.)

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Serenei may have been a sorceress, she may have been older than Aegon but don't assume this means the rumours are absolutely true I remind you again remember what Egg tells Dunk about Rohanne.

That's a one really bad example ^_^ considering the fact, that Rohanne Webber mysteriously disappeared, and years later out of nowhere appeared the Ghost of High Heart. I think, that they are the same person, so Rohanne indeed was and still is a "witch".

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Bathing in blood is in my opinion a real clue that people are exaggerating about these women. It's a magic which we have seen no evidence of in the text despite hearing of blood magic non of the magic we have seen involves blood on that scale or used in that way.

Mirri Maz Duur bathed Drogo in blood. Two warlocks from Qarth bathed Sam Tarly in blood. There is no reason for Egg to lie about what Shiera did.

They were not just bathing in blood, they also added there other ingredients, and used magic spells. Obviously, that just bathing in blood, won't make someone immortal or unaging, but with addition of magic, it could be done (in fiction).

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The biggest clue is that Serenei has a baby at all. Most women begin their menopause at around 45-55 years old. With fertility declining rapidly at about 35. So for serenei to get pregnant at all means she isn't any older than her early 50's at the absolute limit.  We've yet to see any magic which can counter biology in that way.

That's why Aegon had to die - a life for a life. Serenei was drawing life-force from Aegon, to be able to conceive Shiera. It's similar to how Melisandre was drawing life-force from Stannis, to give birth to her shadow-babies. Only for Shiera's birth, Serenei needed MORE, thus Aegon's life got sacrificed.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Visenya being almost 40 makes this hard but as I've explained not impossible.  In fact it is about 5% in every cycle.

Queen Rhaella gave birth to Dany, when she was 39 years old. Rohanne Webber-Lannister gave birth to Gerold's fourth child, when she was 43 or 44. Queen Alysanne Targaryen gave birth to her last child, when she was 44. Alyssa Velaryon gave birth to her last child, when she was aged 47.

And that were all natural pregnancies, without usage of magic.

So, with addition of magic, it was possible for Serenei/Larra to get pregnant, even though she was 69 years old. It's magic. Pay the price, and you can get, whatever you want.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And I have to say that the bathing in blood trope is often coupled with some sort of sacrifice or killing of babies. Again this is simply a sexist trope

So when Craster was sacrifcing his babies to the Others, that was, what it was, but when women are accused in doing similar things, then it's a sexism. :rolleyes:

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Again we go back to Egg telling Dunk of Rohanne's supposed atrocities. he says this in TSS. 

 "Whenever she gives birth, a demon comes by night to carry off the issue. Sam Stoops' wife says she sold her babes unborn to the Lord of the Seven Hells, so he'd teach her his black arts."

THAT could be true. She could have been sacrificing her babies, in exchange for gaining more power.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So no I really would not take the rumours about bathing in blood to maintain beauty as a real thing.  

Just because you don't think, that it's a real thing, doesn't mean, that it's not.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So I'd be looking for a large jewel associated with Serenei if she was hiding her true age. 

She wasn't hiding her true age, she really was younger than her actual age, thanks to blood magic.

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As it hinges on your own interpretation of a picture,  your own feelings about a date given for her death, and a rumour grounded in sexism which crops up repeatedly in relation to various female characters but which has no grounding in the magic we actually see used in world. 

We'll see later. If Quaithe/Shiera under her starry mask looks significantly younger than her 115 years, then the bathing in blood did helped to retain her youth. If she is Shiera, and if she is "young", then it's an evidence, that both mother and daughter (Shiera and Serenei/Larra) were using same methods.

I think this way, you don't agree, let's wait and see how it really is. If there is Dany's, Jon's or Bran's POV in TWOW, then it's highly likely, that Shiera/Quaithe/3EC will appear there.

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15 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's a lot of vague elements, that in connection with each other form a possibility, that Littlefinger is a descendant of the same person, who founded House Whent, and was bloodrelated to Lothsons, and on the other side of his family was bloodrelated to Black Pearls of Braavos and Blackfyres. But it's hard to explain.

Braavos and cats. Arya's "Cat" chapter in ADWD, her warging into a cat (she's partially Whent, same as LF. And their common ancestor was Larra Rogare, who according to rumors was able to turn into a cat. Probably, she actually was a cat-warg, or someting like that). Syrio Forel (Arya's teacher), the Sealord of Braavos, and the mystery-cat. LF's great great grandfather was from Braavos. Littlefinger's cat-like eyes. Littlefinger is owner of brothels. Aegon's descendants in Braavos are courtesans, Black Pearls (same industry as LF's). The Sealord of Braavos was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys (Aegon IV's mistress), first Black Pearl of Braavos. LF's obsession with Tully girls, that are half-Whents, and thus descendants of Aegon IV, same as LF himself. Catelyn's name, Cat and Catelyn instead of Katelyn and Kate. LF had sent one of Kettleblacks to Braavos, to hire Penny and Oppo. Even though there are mummer-dwarfs even in Westeros. But he wanted specifically those dwarfs to perform on Joffrey's wedding. Years ago this same dwarfs performed for the Sealord of Braavos, and as a reward for that, he (possibly) gave to them three dragon eggs (those that Elissa Farman stole from Targaryens). And then those same eggs were given by Illyrio to Dany, as her wedding present. It's likely, that Hop-Bean used to belong to mummers troupe, that was owned by Illyrio, or Varys. Varys used to be a mummer. Then his owners sold him to a sorcerer, who used him as a sacrifice in a blood-magic ritual. So, it's likely, that when Varys became free and rich, he bought that troupe, that sold him, and it was the same troupe as Hop-Bean's (before he became free). It's likely, that the Sealord with dragon eggs, the Sealord with a cat, and the Sealord, that arranged an engagement between Viserys Targaryen and Arianne Martell, is the same person - Ferrego Antaryon, who now is sickly and failing, possibly from old age. During the Battle at Redgrass Field, Daemon Blackfyre had a duel with Kingsguard Gwayne Corbray. Littlefinger's great great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos, when he moved to live in Westeros, was working for Lord Corbray. Daemon Blackfyre, after defeating Gwayne, spared his life, and ordered to give him medical help, and to get him off the battlefield. So House Corbray were indebted to House Blackfyre. After Daemon's death, his wife and at least 7 children, went to Essos. Those children were first cousins to children of Bellenora, Narha, and Balerion Otheryses. It's likely, that when Blackfyres and Otheryses lived in Essos, they got in contact. That sellsword (LF's ancestor), could have been grandson, or great-grandson of Bellegere Otherys, and was bloodrelated to Blackfyres. So, when he went to Westeros, Blackfyres asked Lord Corbray, who was indebted to them, to hire that sellsword into his service, as a way to repay for Daemon's mercy, given to one of Corbrays.

If something is that hard to explain it is probably wrong. And having read this I can say that I don't see it. Not at all.  This just reads like a series of sentences which are unrelated. And again a lot of it relies upon your own initial assumption. 

You right away assume you are correct about Larra being an ancestor of Arya. And use that assumption to link her to LF who you are assuming is related too. 

There is an established link between Arya and Cats. She has skinchanged a cat and that could be used to link her to Larra if there is enough evidence in the text to make that link ie: not simply just the rumour of Cat skinchanging. This is when you should be using quotes to back up your claims. A quote from F&B; which I appreciate is hard as it is yet to go up on the search site, should appear here to give context and credence. Also useful would be some quotes about Arya which tie her to Taragryens or Larra specifically.  You can't just rely upon your own theories or on a stand alone lone coincidence. Otherwise we should all be assuming Varymyr six skins was a Stark & also related to Larra. After all he has warged a wolf and a cat too. 

Then on to LF. You can not begin a theory by relying on it being true. So stating LF is related to the Whents and siting it as evidence in itself is useless.  "Syrio Forel, the sealord of Braavos and the mystery Cat." ? What does this sentance even mean? Who is the mystery cat? I recall no such character.  Then you just say that LF's ancester was from Braavos. And as I have said before that alone is no proof he is related to Arya. Otherwise we are back to assuming everyone from one place is related.Which is absurd you must see. 

You say Little finger has cat like eyes but offer no quotes to back that up nor context as to how or when it was said. A lot of information is in when and how and by whom something was said. 

Next you state that LF own brothels which is a similar trade to the Black pearl. Selling sex. There is a gaping chasm between LF's pimping of women and girls some of whom we know from Jeyne's experience may not be at those brothels voluntarily and whom he uses violence to "train". And a high class autonomous courtesan who may pick and choose her own clients in a society where her profession is revered not reviled.  But yes I suppose on a superficial level the two trades are related. 

The sealord was Bellegere's a sealords granddaughter yes. But this is stated as a stand alone fact and you don't explain how that is linked if at all to anything else let alone LF himself. 

You state LF's obsession with Cat and by extension Sansa; I don't think we can in any way claim that he was obsessed with Lysa she was just a pawn, as proof of a link but yet again the reason behind that is your own assumption that they are related. I happen to agree the Lothstons had Aegon IV's blood I have come to a different conclusion as to how but I think we agree on that. I also agree that there is a strong good chance that house Whent are in some way descended from the Lothstons. BUT and this is important, it is not yet proven and relies on the repeat of Bats in their sigil, you are on shaky ground taking it as fact. Likewise stating that LF is also related as a link is a self reliant link. you can't present your own theory as evidence for that theory.  

Cat's name is perhaps a link to Arya as a cat skinchanger, but GRRM subverts spellings of names frequently and Catlyn is a subversion of Catilin which is itself a subversion of Catherine which is also spelled Katherine.  Of course this does not discard that link to Cat's but that link relates to her own daughter you have so far failed to link Cat's to LF in any meaningful way. 

This is another place where you should be providing a quote.  Penny tells Tyrion that she and Oppo performed once for the Sealord and he gave them a grand gift.  And you have decided this was three Dragon eggs which Elissa stole? And what are you basing that upon? the word grand? or the fact it is the sealord? you do know I am sure that Sealords are not hereditary. But are elected by magisters and a group of Braavosi known as keyholders, their family would retain their fathers/uncles/brothers property when they leave the Sealords Palace. Just imagine a prime minister vacating number 10 or whichever house any given county allocates their PM. And being made to leave behind all their possessions. No I don't think that is likely.  

LF sends for Penny & Oppo specifically because of the nature of their act. The jousting and the fact they are dwarfs. He does so deliberately to provoke bad feelings and words between Tyrion; who has history of putting Joffrey in his place, and Joffrey who now as King is in a position to get back at his Uncle for the times he asserted authority over him.  Not because they are Braavosi. They are not Braavosi! They are not even Essosian. Their father was a slave yes, but he married a free woman after buying his freedom and Penny speaks the common tongue so where do you think this woman resided? I'd suggest given Tyrion never mentions her speaking any other language and never mentions an accent that she was Westerosi ad Penny & Oppo were raised there, travelling to perform on Essos. 

Why on earth would Penny & Oppo give their dragon eggs to Illyrio? Perhaps they'd sell them? But if so why are they still performing as Mummers? they'd be rich eyond all imagining. And besides which what evidence do you have to link Penny & Oppo with Illyrio? Other than Varys once having been a Mummer. Do you think there is one mummers troop in the entire of Essos? why would Hop-Bean belong to the same group as Varys? Varys is clearly given that back ground to explain his abillity to alter his appearance. Whilst we can make a logical link that Hop-Bean may have belonged to a mummers group we don't know that for fact - he may have been privately owned by a wealthy individual. This entire section of the post is you assuming that your ideas are correct when they are based on nothing more than Penny telling Tyrion the sealord  gave them a grand gift. Singular. To a woman who would probably deem anything beyond a few coins grand.  Why do you presume Varys bought the troop he used to belong to? what have you based that on? what is there in the text to support it? because without any text to back it up it is nothing more than an idea you have had. 

How is it remotely likely that the sealord who had the eggs in 54AC is the same Sealord who witnessed the marriage contract of Viserys & Arianne in the mid 280's AC?  

And who is the sealord who had a Cat? see without a quote this makes no sense? There are so many details in the series that if you are going to include a small obscure one you need to provide an explanation and or quote. Otherwise your audience might have no idea what you are on about? 

Next you tell us that Daemon fought a duel with Gwayne Corbray and that LF's Grandfather being in service to a Corbray means he is related to the bastards of Aegon IV. At least that is what I think you are trying to say? But come on this is weak. How many duels are fought in this series or mentioned as historically having happened Does Oberyn fighting Gregor mean Tyene Sand is related to house Clegane?

Perhaps GRRM just want to have some epic VS duels in the books.  

This last bit is again just your own ideas. That Bellegere's children would contact the Blackfyres. or the other way round. They might have yes but what evidence is there that they did? If you are going to make theories out of might haves then Robert Baratheon might have married Mya Stones mother making her a legitimate heir to the IT. I mean there is no evidence but hey he might have.  You could use the fact Illyrio is from Braavos; as shown by the statue and his light water dancers steps, and is also likely descended from the female Blackfyre line as evidence that they intermarried with their cousins in Braavos. That would be something to use. But you would have to take into account that there are no hints at all that Illyrio is remotely mixed race.  And GRRM has made no hints in any chapters which Illrio apears in that he has any mixed heritage or is related to the Black Pearl.  in fact he has specifically not linked them.  If he wanted to have Illyrio have some Otherys blood in him he'd have given him a black pearl ring. But specifically he gives him a Black Diamond and a Green Pearl.  as well as Emerald, Jet & Jade. (Green - Black - Green - Black - Green.) Which alludes to the war between Rhaenyra & Aegon II, which will be repeated by Illyrio through his son fAegon trying to usurp Danaerys.  

ADWD Tyrion I. 

Quote

Illyrio was reclining on a padded couch, gobbling hot peppers and pearl onions from a wooden bowl. His brow was dotted with beads of sweat, his pig's eyes shining above his fat cheeks. Jewels danced when he moved his hands; onyx and opal, tiger's eye and tourmaline, ruby, amethyst, sapphire, emerald, jet and jade, a black diamond, and a green pearl. I could live for years on his rings, Tyrion mused, though I'd need a cleaver to claim them.

You have come up with an idea as to how LF's grandfather might have come into Corbrays service which relies upon him having Targaryen bastard blood  but you have failed to link LF to the Targaryens. 

To surmise. 

  • Arya is in Braavos and has a Cat connection. 
  • LF is descended from a Braavosi sell sword. 
  • Larra has a Cat connection 
  • You think LF is related to the Whents, who we know Arya is related to. 
  • A sealord once had a Cat? - no quote so this is what I assume you mean. 
  • LF owns brothels & Bellegere is a courtesan
  • LF is described as having Cat like eyes - unsupported as no quote given.
  • LF had a crush on Cat & now desires Sansa
  • Cat's name is spelled like the animal.
  • Penny & Oppo once performed for the Sealord who gave them a grand gift
  • About 240 years before the current events a different and unrelated Sealord bought three dragon eggs
  • LF hired Penny & Oppo
  • Varys used to be a Mummer
  • Illyrio acquired three dragon eggs
  • Daemon Blackfyre fought a duel with Gwayne Corbray
  • LF's grandfather served a Corbray. 

Do you see how tenuous this all is? 

 

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17 hours ago, Megorova said:

+ what I wrote in post 7, starting with "In 193 Ser Arlan of Pennytree unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal in a melee at King's Landing" (which explains why and how House Whent are descendants of Aegon IV, and why Littlefinger was obsessed with Cat and Lysa; and the reason why Whents took part in the fall of House Lothston, and then became rulers of Harrenhal)

+ post 10, starting with "So, there was a big difference between people, that were known to be Aegon's children, and those, whom he never admitted to father." (which explains the reason why and how the Bastard of Harrenhal could have went to Braavos, to meet there his relatives, that were unacknowledged by Targaryens, same as him - children of Bellegere Otherys; also possibly because Bellegere could have been able to confirm, that Jeyne Lothston was Aegon's child;

or because Otheryses had three dragon eggs, that previously belonged to Targaryens. The Sealord of Braavos, that got those eggs from Elissa Farman, could be ancestor of the Sealord of Braavos, that was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys, who could be ancestor of the current Sealord of Braavos (the one that gave Targaryen dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs, Hop-Bean, Penny and Oppo). So the Bastard, or his son could have went to Braavos to get those eggs. Bellegere's and Sealord's relatives could have kept those eggs in their family, for many generations, hoping that they will be able to hatch them. Possibly Bellegere's encounter with Aegon wasn't accidental. It's possible, that she was sent by her grandfather, the Sealord, to seduce Aegon, and to get pregnant from him, because they hoped, that her dragonseed-children will be able to hatch those dragon eggs. Though it didn't happened. But Bellegere could have told Aegon, or Falena, or Jeyne, or someone else, or it was a common knowledge, that Bellegere's family owned three dragon eggs, that their ancestor got from Elissa Farman. So, using similar sceme, the Bastard or his son (already a Whent, or not yet a Whent) could have went to Braavos, seduced one of Black Pearls, or her relative, and had a child with her, hoping that their baby will be able to hatch one of those dragon eggs. So that's how was born LF's great great grandfather, who was a sellsword from Braavos;

+ we don't have a specific time-frame for LF's ancestors, when did they lived, but there is a Targaryen family tree with specific dates, there's family tree of Starks, a bit of info about House Tully-Whent, and about Whents of Harrenhal and Lothstons. So, based on that information, it seems, that LF's great great grandfather was from the same generation as Shella Whent's grandfather. House Corbray, to whom served that sellsword, when he arrived from Braavos to 7K, ties together him and LF with Blackfyres. And those other elements (from above in this post) tie together LF, Braavos and Black Pearls.

+ there's a lot of parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible. fAegon and Golden Company seems to be a parallel to Antichrist, the Beast out of the Sea. It had seven heads, and one of those heads was mortally wounded, and then healed itself. Which is similar to fAegon's cover story, that he is supposedly son of Rhaegar Targaryen, even though that baby got killed, his head was smashed. In the Bible, after appearance of the first beast, appeared the Beast out of the Earth, it had dragon's voice and lamb's horns. This other beast told to people to worship the first Beast, and to make his/Antichrist's images and worship those images. Which is similar to LF secretly gathering Targaryen tapesties. Why would he be gathering them, if not to use them to welcome fAegon, and arrange what Dany saw in her vision about Mummer's dragon? If LF is descendant of Falena Stokeworth, then methaphorically he has lamb's horns, because there's a lamb on banner of House Stokeworth. And if he is descendant of Aegon IV, then he has a dragon's voice, i.e. because he is a dragonseed, has a bit of Targaryen genes;

+ LF's personal sigil, mockingbird, could be a hint, that he used to be one of Varys' agents. It's obvious from the books, that Varys' people are not only orphants, or mute street urchins. LF, knowing so much information about Varys, is also a clue, that they used to be working together, prior LF betrayed Varys, and went independent, to play his own Game of Thrones. Also, it seems that LF's plan is actually Varys' plan, only he altered it a bit, and set things in motion several years prior the date, that was planned by Varys;

+ several other elements.

 

All of that combined together forms a likely possibility, that LF is a dragonseed, and is bloodrelated to Whents, Lothstons, Otheryses, Blackfyres, and even to Varys.    

And it's all so complicated, because readers are not supposed to figure out who LF actually is (that he is Aegon IV's descendant, and bloodrelated to Cat and Sansa, and Varys, and fAegon), and why is he doing whatever he is doing, what's his motivation and his goal in his Game of Thrones.

 

(Edit: Why is it relevant, that GRRM wrote, that Ser Arlan unhorsed Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal, what's the usefulness of this info? -> It was said about Ser Arlan, that basically he was a so so jouster - he never won any tournaments. His greatest accomplishments was to break four lances against Baelor Breakspear, and to unhorse Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhal. So, based on this information, I think that Arlan, who was a so so jouster, was able to unhorse Lord Stokeworth, because Lord Stokeworth was an old man, well past his prime, and the Bastard was also easy to defeat, because he was just a teenager, and didn't had a lot of jousting experience.

How does GRRM linking Stokeworth and a bastard in Harrenhall prove that LF is a descendant? or why he was besotted with Cat; never Lysa. Or that house Whent was descended from the bastard of Harrenhall or why this Whent took part in the bringing down of house Lothston? 

All this piece of Info GRRM has given us does is establish a link between house Stokeworth and the Bastard of Harrenhall. That link is Falena or Jeyne.  And we should first work out which of those women it is. Firstly though Falena has the more direct link to house Stokeworth as Jeyne is officially  and may well in fact be a Lothston. 

GRRM has however given us a further clue in who the bastard of Harrenhall's mother was because he told us what dates Aegon travelled frequently to Harrenhall after Falena was made Lady Lothston in 151. He went there often for two years. Bringing us up to 153AC. After that he shows no interest in Falena until Aegon names her husband Lucus HotK in 178AC. At which point she is 53 years old. 

He also places Aegon out of the country in the period in which Jeyne Lothston was conceived.

In 161AC Naerys nearly dies in childbirth, Aegon is sent to Braavos where he conducts a decade long affair with Bellegere, in 171 Naerys gives birth again.  There are no known bastards born to Aegon in Westeros between Rosey in 158 & Daemon in 170.  This means Aegon was likely in Braavos whilst Jeyne was conceived. Now there are rumours but as we know rumours can spring up despite being impossible.( Jon is rumoured to be Ashara Dayne's son but is far too young to have been conceived at Harrenhall. And Ned would find it impossible to hook up with her whilst campaigning in the Riverlands which was the time period Jon would be conceived in; given his proximity in age to Robb. But never the less people believe this rumour. ) 

We also know as I have given several references now, that people love a good salacious rumour and what is more salacious than a king bedding his own daughter in a threesome with her mum?  Why would Aegon want to sleep with 53 year old Falena? let alone why would 53 year old Falena want to sleep with the now fat and poxy Aegon? Jeyne is a child of 14 and can perhaps be manipulated, persuaded, and coerced into his bed by him or her Mum, if she is still seeking courtly favour. But the threesome idea sounds like something straight from the gossip mongers guide book. Again I'm going to reference Mushroom, tall tales full of vice and sleaze. But take it all with a pinch of salt. 

 So we have a rumour that Falena gave Aegon a child coupled with impossible or at least unlikely dates, the author has provided text links between Falena's house and bastardy in Harrenhall, and created a character who is supposedly her husbands son - who was an adult of fighting age when a child of Falena's and Aegons (born around 153/4AC) would have been. Then he gives that Character a link to another of Aegon's bastards via the black hood.

Well  I'd say that breadcrumb trail brings us to Falena having passed a son of Aegons off as Lucus Lothstons making Manfryd Lothston o'the black hood in fact Aegon's son. And as I explained before the name Manfred even has it's own links to incest via Byron's poem of the same name being supposedly about his incestuous affair with his own sister.   

Do you see how I've explored the evidence and cross referenced it to come to that conclusion. Rather than just seeing a vague link and making my own assumptions. This idea was arrived at through exploring the text and cross referencing ideas, searching key words and examining what came up in the text. etc.  

The bastard of Harrenhall may well be Manfryd, people may well have suspected him as being Aegon's son. GRRM has not given us any direct references to this rumour if that is the case. In 193 to be jousting he'd have to be at least 20 or so but could be up to his 60's even as Barristan still jousts. He could simply be Manfyrds bastard though, or Lucus's. I'd say more than anything he is a device to get the reader to link bastards in Harrenhall with house Stokeworth. 

But non of that explains how house When are descended from the Lothstons.  I agree there is a chance they are the Bats are a link. But it is in no way proven by Arlan unhorsing a Stokeworth and the bastard. Nor does that prove LF is related to them. Nor why LF is obsessed with Cat; that has it's own in story explanation already. He fancied her and was denied her due to his low birth. 

No this does not explain why or how the bastard of Harrenhall travelled to Braavos; because that has only happened in your own imagination. There is no in text suggestion at all that this ever happened. Nor is there any that Bellegere would know if Aegon fathered Jeyne Lothston.  You have decided Aegon liked threesomes based on a salacious rumour which I've just shown should not be taken as fact.  But Bellegere is not said to have come to Westeros not Falena to Braavos.  

Interestingly the name Lucus Lothston has been given as a nick name The Pander has an archaic meaning of pimp. The Pimp. Could be taken if you had some other evidence to back it as a link to Peytr Baelish. Who is of course a pimp. But it could also be taken to imply he was the one who pimped out Jeyne to Aegon and given that this is something other hands have done; tried to make their own daughter the Kings mistress, then I'd suggest this is the better explanation. Which then removes  the now 53 year old Falena from the union between Aegon and Jeyne even more as it implies her father not her mother placed her in Aegon's bed. 

This next bit is again you taking your own theory as fact and using it to bolster your theory.  Bellegere's grandfather was sealord in probably the 140-170's. assuming she is in her mid twenties when she meets Aegon and her own father is about 25 years older than her. A Sealord serves for life meaning her grandad may still be sealord when Aegon serves as an envoy in fact this makes sense as where else would he meet a privateer in Braavos? If she is visiting the sealords palace to see her grandfather then she has opportunity to meet Aegon.  So 100 -130 or so years after Elissa Farman sells the eggs you think the same family are living in the sealords palace? And that the curent Sealord is also of that same family? Do I need to point out again here that the Sealord is not a hereditary title. 

We have already established that we don't know what the sealord gave Penny & her brother. But I'll point out again gift singular and the utter madness of giving a dwarf mummers act three of the most expensive luxury items in the known world. 

You say the bastard or his son might have travelled to Braavos to retrieve the three eggs sold to a sealord in 54AC. Why would he even know of the eggs? what evidence was there that he knew? what evidence is there that he ever left Westeros? What evidence is there that Bellegere's grandfather ever had them? What evidence is there that he; the bastard, had a child with an Otherys? What evidence is there that LF descends from that coupling?   All of this is nothing more than your own imagination. Could have doesn't cut it in here. Cersei could have crossed the narrow sea and come to Dany in the guise of Quathe but nothing in the text suggests it. Ned could have skinchanged a pigeon, Arya might secretly be a boy...you see these bizare theories have all been put to us over the years. Without evidence grounded in the text anyone can claim anything. 

Non of this ties LF to house Whent or to the Black Pearls. Essentially you have decided that Jeyne's son who we have no evidence existed, was the man known in 193 as the bastard of Harrenhall; but he was hiding as someone else's bastard, travelled to Braavos , fathered a son on one of  Bellegere's  grand daughters,  who then came back to serve House Corbray as a sellsword from Braavos and House Corbray took him in because in 198 Daemon Blackfyre spared Gwayne Corbrays life. Despite a complete lack of text to suggest it. 

LF is not gathering Targaryen Tapestries. We learn about the tapestries in

 TWOW Alayne I 

Spoiler

Lord Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prize tapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep of King's Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languished in some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce. Not only were the hangings beautiful, but the High Steward delighted in telling anyone who'd listen that they had once belonged to a king.

 

They had belonged to Robert Baratheon not House Targaryen. He has requested them as a bribe for Nestor Royce who has pretensions to higher nobility and has been bought off by being gifted the castle and the tapestries.

Here in AFFC we first learn he has requested them.

AFFC Alayne I.

Quote

Perhaps I shall. Or better still, to our sweet Cersei. Though I should not speak harshly of her, she is sending me some splendid tapestries. Isn't that kind of her?"

Nothing to do with Targaryens 

What has led you to believe that LF has the same plan as Varys or that he ever worked with him? 

You say all of this proves your theory but all of it is just your own ideas. The links are scanty and unconvincing and you have nothing to back them up with. 

 

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19 hours ago, Megorova said:

If this Bastard is son of Jeyne Lothston, then he was born in 178 or 179, and thus in 193 was 14-16 years old. While Lord Stokeworth, if he was Falena's brother, or cousin, or something like that, in 193 was 58 or so years old (or 68) <- Falena was about the same age as Aegon, or maybe even a bit older than him (edit: she was 10 years older than Aegon. Though that Lord Stokeworth could have been Falena's slightly younger brother). Or that Lord Stokeworth could have been even from the next generation after Falena's, something like her nephew, so he could have been 50 or so years old, still older than Ser Arlan.

If Aegon was still alive in 193, then he would have been 58 years old. Barristan Selmy during the Hand's tourney in his first two tilts defeated men thirty and forty years younger than him, at that time (in 298) he was 61 or 62 years old. And there's Gawen Swann, who participated in Tournament at Ashford Meadow, in 209, and at that time was an old man.

So, if Lord Stokeworth was from the same generation as Falena, and was old, he could have still participated in that tournament, same as Barristan or Lord Swann in theirs. While Ser Arlan in 193 was 40-44 years old. So for him to defeat a guy, who was approximately 14-18 years older than him, and a guy, who was 24-30 years younger than him and didn't had a lot of experience, was a piece of cake.

So GRRM, by giving to us information about Arlan's accomplishments, not only hinted that Lord Stokeworth and the Bastard are connected, blood-related, but also how old are they, that the possible reason of their defeat is their age in relevance to Arlan's age at that time, and it's an additional clue, that the Bastard, who then was very young, possibly was Jeyne's son, born in 178 or 179, after she left Aegon's court.)

All of this maths is unimportant. The sole purpose of this reference to Ser Arlan is to link the house Stokeworth with the bastard of harrenhall.  We could spend all day working out how old certain people might be at what ever point. But ultimately bring it back to the text. The author has provided a link between Stokeworth and Bastardy and Harrenhall. That is it.  

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19 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's a one really bad example ^_^ considering the fact, that Rohanne Webber mysteriously disappeared, and years later out of nowhere appeared the Ghost of High Heart. I think, that they are the same person, so Rohanne indeed was and still is a "witch".

OK, you are saying here my example of Rohanne is a bad example because YOU think she is the ghost of high heart? Do you see how yet again you are taking your own opinions as facts and thinking those opinions trump the text?

Rohanne has no magical abilities when we meet her. Years later she disappears. So what? All this means is that GRRM does not wish to provide us with her fate yet. Which implies she will appear again in another D&E story. 

19 hours ago, Megorova said:

Mirri Maz Duur bathed Drogo in blood. Two warlocks from Qarth bathed Sam Tarly in blood. There is no reason for Egg to lie about what Shiera did.

They were not just bathing in blood, they also added there other ingredients, and used magic spells. Obviously, that just bathing in blood, won't make someone immortal or unaging, but with addition of magic, it could be done (in fiction).

Mirri performs the Blood magic spell to bring Drogo back to life. Not to keep him youthfull. I apologise as I had forgotten he was in a bath. However the thing with MMD is that we can not and should not take at face value what she does and says. Especially in this scene. She has magic and she does some form of magic in the tent and Drogo is brought back to life; though lacking his mind. That does not mean that the bath of blood did jack shit. But we do know that she has an intent when she performs this ritual, and that that intent is to scare the shit out of Dany & the Dothraki; because she uses the fear powder Mel later tells us about in ADWD. 

ADWD Danaerys VIII

Quote

Mirri Maz Duur tossed a red powder onto the coals. It gave the smoke a spicy scent, a pleasant enough smell, yet Eroeh fled sobbing, and Dany was filled with fear. But she had gone too far to turn back now.

She stresses that no one should peek behind the curtain...sorry enter the tent. And then sheuses the fear powder and from outside of the tent Dany; who has inhaled that powder see's dancing shadows on the tents canvas.  Then Drogo is alive again sand mind. Do not assume the blood did a jot. 

After all we know from Sam 

AGOT Jon IV

Quote

"One time," Sam confided, his voice dropping from a whisper, "two men came to the castle, warlocks from Qarth with white skin and blue lips. They slaughtered a bull aurochs and made me bathe in the hot blood, but it didn't make me brave as they'd promised. I got sick and retched. Father had them scourged."

That bathing in blood did fuck all. Warlocks from Qarth being another group of people throughout the books who are full of shit and like to give out the impression that they are far more powerful than they really are. 

So no the bathing in blood is no closer to being a true magic than previously. Maybe MMD really needed that blood? Maybe she did something else entirely? Maybe the shadows where a result of inhaling the fear powder? Maybe they were shadow magic and separate to the blood ritual, again used to impress and terrify the Dothraki? Non of it shows Blood bathing to hold specific magical powers. 

Egg was not telling us what Shiera does he was relaying a rumour, just as he was doing about Rohanne too. Or do you think Shiera invited the small child to her chamber to watch her bathe in blood. Egg shows throughout that he has a  childs curiosity and fascination with the macabre. He is not however a primary resource. 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's why Aegon had to die - a life for a life. Serenei was drawing life-force from Aegon, to be able to conceive Shiera. It's similar to how Melisandre was drawing life-force from Stannis, to give birth to her shadow-babies. Only for Shiera's birth, Serenei needed MORE, thus Aegon's life got sacrificed.

What Mellisandre is doing is shadow binding. She is drawling his life force via his sperm and creating shadows of him; identical to him remember Brienne says she saw Stannis, to perform specific time limited tasks. After which the shadows dissipate. 

There is no evidence that Serenei was doing a similar thing. You need text to back it up not just an idea. 

The flesh worms are the indication Aegon's death was unnatural. But we've not seen anything relating flesh worms to Mellisandre's magical man essence drawing. Nor any evidence that she could transform the shadows of adult carbon copies of the man she fucks into a real life flesh and blood baby.  Nor has the author provided a clue by say a rumour that as Serneei's pregnancy progressed Aegon's health failed.

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Queen Rhaella gave birth to Dany, when she was 39 years old. Rohanne Webber-Lannister gave birth to Gerold's fourth child, when she was 43 or 44. Queen Alysanne Targaryen gave birth to her last child, when she was 44. Alyssa Velaryon gave birth to her last child, when she was aged 47.

And that were all natural pregnancies, without usage of magic.

So, with addition of magic, it was possible for Serenei/Larra to get pregnant, even though she was 69 years old. It's magic. Pay the price, and you can get, whatever you want.

nope. We have no evidence to suggest that Serenei was 69, that she was Larra or that magic can prolong a womans fertility.  You can't simply have whatever you want either. The magic in world has some loose rules. It isn't just a matter of how high a price do you want to pay. Again don't take MMD at face value. There is a reason she tries to convince Dany that she has caused her own sons death. She's just fucked up a spell to bring Drogo back to life, she knows that without him Dany has no power over the Dothraki and she will be raped and killed. She has also just fucked up the delivery of Dany's baby; who was deformed and destined to die as all other dragon babies have, she knows there is nothing left to cling onto and her death is coming so she tries to persuade Dany who still has a modicum of control over the dothraki who have remained. That she was not responsible for the babies death. D any notes the moment when her face changes from contempt to feat. when she realises she is fucked no matter what she says to Dany now. And this is when MMD gets really nasty in what she says. 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

So when Craster was sacrifcing his babies to the Others, that was, what it was, but when women are accused in doing similar things, then it's a sexism. :rolleyes:

Craser is not sacrificing his sons in a salacious vanity driven hammer horror blood bath.  Craster isn't sacrificing his sons at all. He's leaving them for the Others. GRRM isn't being sexist he is using in world sexism to add flowers to his garden. It is another way of layering up truth and lies for the reader to work their way through. 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

THAT could be true. She could have been sacrificing her babies, in exchange for gaining more power.

Really! To who? or do you think the gods exist? Why when all other methods we see in world of increasing ones magical abillity come through hard work, dedication, study, and time spent practicing?

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

Just because you don't think, that it's a real thing, doesn't mean, that it's not.

Likewise just because you think it is does not make it true. 

Name me one incident in the text where we see a character maintaining their youth and beauty by doing this. Not a rumour but see it on page? Again discerning the truth in the story comes not from what we personally think is cool or might happen, but from studying the text and piecing it together through clues. We have met no one who really does this.  And the stories are passed around through third and more hand gossip involving young beautiful women who hold power or position  in a world that denies women power and status except through men. Via a super tropey method. And when we meet one of these women she is shown to be nothing of the sort. 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

She wasn't hiding her true age, she really was younger than her actual age, thanks to blood magic.

This is unsupported. The only magics we learn of as real in the world which can alter your appearance are glamour & skinwearing. The only magic we learn of which can stall aging is fire wighting. Which is actually a form of necromancy. Glamour is known to be known to a character associated with Shiera via BR. Skinwearing is yet to be seen outside of the FM; though I suspect House Bolton may have historically practiced a form of it. And if she were a fire wight she would not be able to bear a real living child. As her body would not be living. 

 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

We'll see later. If Quaithe/Shiera under her starry mask looks significantly younger than her 115 years, then the bathing in blood did helped to retain her youth. If she is Shiera, and if she is "young", then it's an evidence, that both mother and daughter (Shiera and Serenei/Larra) were using same methods.

I think this way, you don't agree, let's wait and see how it really is. If there is Dany's, Jon's or Bran's POV in TWOW, then it's highly likely, that Shiera/Quaithe/3EC will appear there.

IF Quaithe turns out to be Shiera I'd expect GRRM to give us an explanation at that point as to how she has lived this long. I'd suggest going on what we currently know in world about magic that she'd be a fire wight.  As opposed to genuinely alive and youthful due to blood bathing.  

BR is only alive due to the tree, it acts as a life support system for his ancient body. Mellisandre is much older than she appears; practically confirmed by the actress who played her in GOT through what she said she was told in early seasons about her, Mellisandre however has all the hallmarks of a fire wight.  No one else has popped up who has a confirmed unnatural life span. And we have never seen anyone bathing in actual blood to keep young. 

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On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

"Syrio Forel, the sealord of Braavos and the mystery Cat." ? What does this sentance even mean? Who is the mystery cat? I recall no such character. 

I thought, that that story is well known, and thus doesn't need an additional explanation. Sorry, my bad. It's from the story about how Syrio became the First Sword of Braavos. This story ties together Braavos, the Sealord, cats, and LF, who had an ancestor in Braavos, and has cat-like eyes.

AGOT, Arya IV:

" "Hear me. The ships of Braavos sail as far as the winds blow, to lands strange and wonderful, and when they return their captains fetch queer animals to the Sealord's menagerie. Such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws. Syrio Forel has seen these things.

"On the day I am speaking of, the first sword was newly dead, and the Sealord sent for me. Many bravos had come to him, and as many had been sent away, none could say why. When I came into his presence, he was seated, and in his lap was a fat yellow cat. He told me that one of his captains had brought the beast to him, from an island beyond the sunrise. 'Have you ever seen her like?' he asked of me.

And to him I said, 'Each night in the alleys of Braavos I see a thousand like him,' and the Sealord laughed, and that day I was named the first sword."

Arya screwed up her face. "I don't understand."

Syrio clicked his teeth together. "The cat was an ordinary cat, no more. The others expected a fabulous beast, so that is what they saw. How large it was, they said. It was no larger than any other cat, only fat from indolence, for the Sealord fed it from his own table. What curious small ears, they said. Its ears had been chewed away in kitten fights. And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said 'her,' and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?"

Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there." "

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

There is an established link between Arya and Cats. She has skinchanged a cat and that could be used to link her to Larra if there is enough evidence in the text to make that link ie: not simply just the rumour of Cat skinchanging. This is when you should be using quotes to back up your claims. A quote from F&B; which I appreciate is hard as it is yet to go up on the search site, should appear here to give context and credence. Also useful would be some quotes about Arya which tie her to Taragryens or Larra specifically. 

Quotes about Arya and cats (not just any cats - the cats, that Syrio Forel (who was named by the Sealord of Braavos the First Sword of Braavos, by solving the Sealord's mystery about unmysterious tomcat) sent her to catch, as a part of her training), cats that tie Arya with Braavos, and Larra Rogare, who was a shadowbinder (<- this is based on info from F&B, I will add a quote later. Edit: added Quotes):

AGOT, Arya III:

"The one-eared black tom arched his back and hissed at her.

Arya padded down the alley, balanced lightly on the balls of her bare feet, listening to the flutter of her heart, breathing slow deep breaths. Quiet as a shadow, she told herself, light as a feather. The tomcat watched her come, his eyes wary.

Catching cats was hard. Her hands were covered with half-healed scratches, and both knees were scabbed over where she had scraped them raw in tumbles. At first even the cook's huge fat kitchen cat had been able to elude her, but Syrio had kept her at it day and night. When she'd run to him with her hands bleeding, he had said, "So slow? Be quicker, girl. Your enemies will give you more than scratches." He had dabbed her wounds with Myrish fire, which burned so bad she had had to bite her lip to keep from screaming. Then he sent her out after more cats.

The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies' cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps. One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. "That's the real king of this castle right there," one of the gold cloaks had told her. "Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen's father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child." "

 

"Now at last she had him. High walls pressed close on either side, and ahead was a blank windowless mass of stone. Quiet as a shadow, she repeated, sliding forward, light as a feather.

When she was three steps away from him, the tomcat bolted. Left, then right, he went; and right, then left, went Arya, cutting off his escape. He hissed again and tried to dart between her legs. Quick as a snake, she thought. Her hands closed around him. She hugged him to her chest, whirling and laughing aloud as his claws raked at the front of her leather jerkin. Ever so fast, she kissed him right between the eyes, and jerked her head back an instant before his claws would have found her face. The tomcat yowled and spit.

"What's he doing to that cat?" "

 

Chasing after this same cat, Arya overheard Illyrio and Varys, in AGOT, Arya III.

 

F&B, The Lysene Spring and the End of Regency:

"All this the court and kingdom might have come to accept in time, had Lady Larra not also insisted upon keeping her own gods. She would have no part in the worship of the Seven, nor the old gods of the northmen. Her worship was reserved for certain of the manifold gods of Lys: the six-breasted cat goddess Pantera, Yndros of the Twilight who was male by day and female by night, the pale child Bakkalon of the Sword, faceless Saagael, the giver of pain.

Her ladies, her servants, and her guards would join Lady Larra at certain times in performing obeisances to these queer, ancient deities. Cats were seen coming and going from her chambers so often that men began to say they were her spies, purring at her in soft voices of all the doings of the Red Keep. It was even said that Larra herself could transform into a cat, to prowl the gutters and rooftops of the city. Darker rumors soon arose. The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love, and whispers went about that her ladyship oft availed herself of this ability at twilight orgies, so she might visit the brothels on the Street of Silk as a man. And every time a child went missing, the ignorant would look at one another and talk of Saagael’s insatiable thirst for blood."

"Sandoq the Shadow had come from Lys with Lady Larra, a gift from her father the Magister Lysandro. Black of skin and black of hair, he stood almost seven feet tall. His face, which he oft kept hidden behind a black silk veil, was a mass of thin white scars, and his lips and tongue had been removed, leaving him both mute and hideous to look upon. It was said of him that he had been the victor of a hundred fights in the death pits of Meereen, that he had once torn out the throat of a foe with his teeth after his sword had shattered, that he drank the blood of the men he killed, that in the pits he had slain lions, bears, wolves, and wyverns with no weapon but the stones he found upon the sands.

Such tales grow in the telling, to be sure, and we cannot know how much of this, if any, is to be believed. Though Sandoq could not read or write, Mushroom tells us he was fond of music, and would oft sit in the shadows of Lady Larra’s bedchamber playing sweet sad notes on a queer stringed instrument of goldenheart and ebony that stood near as tall as he did. “I could sometimes make the lady laugh, though she did not understand more than a few words of our tongue,” the fool says, “but the Shadow’s playing always made her weep, and strange to say she liked that better.” "

 

I think, based on information from Fire&Blood, that Larra Rogare was a shadowbinder. It seems, that the gods, that she was worshiping - Saagel and Yndros, is the same being as fire god R'hllor.

ADWD, Jon VI - "The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows." - F&B - "The acolytes of Yndros could supposedly transform themselves from male to female and female to male through the act of love" - Yndros is R'hllor.

ADWD, Melisandre I - "The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in. ... Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames."

- Saagel, the giver of pain, that has a thirst for blood, is also R'hllor.

 

In The World Book and F&B there are clues, that the mother of Larra Rogare was Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, and that prior she became one of Lysandro's wives, she was working as a courtesan in a brothel, owned by Rogares - The Perfumed Garden. There are also clues, that the fall of House Rogare was caused by Johanna. She's the one who killed (or arranged their deaths) her husband Lysandro, and his brother, Drazenko, and all those other people in Lys, that died soon after, under mysterious circumstances:

F&B  - "Though the narrow sea lay between them, the two Rogares died within a day of each other, both under suspicious circumstances. Drazenko perished first, choking to death upon a piece of bacon. Lysandro drowned when his opulent barge sank whilst carrying him from his Perfumed Garden back to his palace. Though a few would insist that their deaths were unfortunate accidents, many more took the manner and timing of their passings as proof of a plot to bring down House Rogare. The Faceless Men of Braavos were widely believed to have been responsible for the killings; no more subtle assassins were known to exist anywhere in the wide world.

But if indeed the Faceless Men had done these deeds, at whose bidding had they acted? The Iron Bank of Braavos was suspected, as was the Archon of Tyrosh, Racallio Ryndoon, and various merchant princes and magisters of Lys known to have chafed under the “velvet tyranny” of Lysandro the Magnificent. Some went so far as to suggest that the First Magister had been removed by his own sons (he had sired six trueborn sons, three daughters, and sixteen bastards). So skillfully had the brothers been removed, however, that not even the fact of murder could be proved."

"Torreo Haen was poisoned with his wife, his mistress, his daughters (one being the maid whose wisp of a gown had caused such scandal at the Maiden’s Day Ball), siblings, and supporters at the feast he held to celebrate his elevation to first magister. Silvario Pendaerys was stabbed through the eye leaving the Temple of Trade, whilst his brother Pereno was garroted in a pillow house as a slave girl pleasured him with her mouth. The gonfaloniere Moreo Dagareon was slain by his own elite guards, and Matteno Orthys, a fervent worshipper of the goddess Pantera, was mauled and partly devoured by his prized shadowcat when its cage was unaccountably left open one night."

"Legend claims it was men in the hire of the Iron Bank of Braavos who first began suggesting that the Rogare Bank might be unsound, but regardless of who started it, such talk was soon heard all over Lys. The city’s magisters and merchant princes began to demand the return of their deposits; a few at first, then more and more, until a river of gold was pouring from Lysaro’s vaults…a river that soon enough ran dry. By that time Lysaro himself was gone. Faced with ruin, he fled Lys in the dead of night with three bed slaves, six servants, and a hundred of his Unsullied, abandoning his wife, his daughters, and his palace. Understandably alarmed, the city magisters moved at once to seize the Rogare Bank, only to discover that naught remained but a hollow shell.

The fall of House Rogare was swift and brutal. Lysaro’s brothers and sisters claimed to have played no part in the despoiling of the bank, but many doubted their claims of innocence."

 

The fall of House Rogare was Johanna's doing, it was revenge to them, for making her a courtesan, after her uncle refused to pay a ransom for her to pirates, that kidnapped her. Johanna was the daughter of Byron Swann, who was killed by a dragon, and about whom Haldon asked Tyrion in ADWD, Tyrion III.

And the poisoning of Gaemon Palehair with the Tears of Lys was done by Larra and Viserys. It was Viserys' revenge to Aegon, for taking away Viserys' dragon egg. Aegon took away something, that was dear for Viserys, so Viserys retaliated, by taking away something, that was cherished by Aegon - his friend Gaemon. Aegon and his Queen weren't targets of that poisoning. Viserys knew, that Aegon rarely eats sweets, so he poisoned apple tarts. And if he wanted to kill the Queen too (considering that he knew, that Gaemon, who was a food-taster, will try it first, and thus will be poisoned first), he would have used a different, slower poison. So by the time, when Gaemon had first symptoms of poisoning, it was already a late night, and thus his poisoning was unnoticed. By morning both Gaemon and the Queen would have been dead, while Aegon was sleeping. But that didn't happened, because the target of poisoning was only Gaemon. They knew, that even if the Queen will also eat those tarts, there will be enough time, to save her. Larra also set up her brothers, by sending them to directly approach Thaddeus Rowan, instead of sending to him, someone whom he didn't knew. Because they were not Johanna's children. Out of Lysandro's 16+ children, only Larra was Johanna's child, while all the rest were children born by Lysandro's other wives and concubines. In Essos it is allowed for a man to have more than one wife. For example, Cleon, the King of Astapor, had three wives, and offered to Dany to become his fourth (the third one was pregnant at that time) <- this happened, when she became Queen of Meereen.

 

F&B - "The news of this monstrous dragonbirth and its bloody aftermath were greatly troubling to King Aegon, and soon led to angry words between His Grace and his brother. Prince Viserys still had his own dragon’s egg. Though it had never quickened, the prince had kept it with him throughout his years of exile and captivity, for it held great meaning for him. When Aegon commanded that no dragon’s eggs were to be allowed in his castle, Viserys grew most wroth. Yet the king’s will prevailed, as it must; the egg was sent to Dragonstone, and Prince Viserys refused to speak to King Aegon for a moon’s turn.

His Grace was much dismayed by the quarrel with his brother, Mushroom tells us, but what happened next left him bereft and devastated. King Aegon was enjoying a quiet supper in his solar with his little queen, Daenaera, and his friend Gaemon Palehair and the dwarf was entertaining them with a silly song about a bear that drank too much, when the bastard boy began to complain of a cramping in his gut. “Run fetch Grand Maester Munkun,” the king commanded Mushroom. By the time the fool returned with the Grand Maester, Gaemon had collapsed and Queen Daenaera was moaning, “My belly hurts too.”

Gaemon had long served as King Aegon’s food taster as well as his cupbearer, and Munkun soon declared that both he and the little queen were the victims of poisoning. The Grand Maester gave Daenaera a powerful purgative, which most like saved her life. She retched uncontrollably throughout the night, wailing and writhing in pain, and was too drained and weak to leave her bed the next day, but she was cleansed. Munkun came too late for Gaemon Palehair, however. The boy died within the hour. Born a bastard in a brothel, “King Cunny” had reigned briefly over his kingdom on a hill during the Moon of Madness, seen his mother put to death, and served Aegon III as cupbearer, whipping boy, and friend. He was thought to be but nine years old at his death.

Afterward Grand Maester Munkun fed what remained of the supper to a cage of rats, and determined that the poison had been baked into the crust of the apple tarts. Fortunately, the king had never been especially fond of sweets (nor of any other food, if truth be told).

...

Though the king had spent less time with his cupbearer after his brother’s return to Westeros, Gaemon Palehair’s death nonetheless left Aegon inconsolable. One small good came from it, for it helped to heal the rift between the king and his brother Viserys, who broke his stubborn silence to comfort His Grace in his grief, and sat with him by the queen’s bedside. "

<- Viserys poisoned Gaemon, for two reasons - to get revenge for Aegon taking away his dragon egg, and to use Gaemon's death to make up with Aegon.

The Aegon, that came out of Maegor's Holdfast with Viserys, was not Aegon, but Larra in shadow-glamour.

F&B - " “Your Grace does us wrong to think we mean him harm,” Ser Marston said, as the corpses of the men Sandoq had slain were brought up from the moat. “We acted only to protect Your Grace from false friends and traitors. Ser Amaury was sworn to protect you, to give his own life for yours if need be. He was your leal man, as I am. He did not deserve such a death, at the hands of such a beast.”

King Aegon was unmoved. “Sandoq is no beast,” he answered from the battlements. “He cannot speak, but he hears and he obeys." - Obeys whom? Aegon? or maybe Larra, whose bodyguard he was?

This was also Larra in shadow-glamour, not the real Aegon -

"The confession left King Aegon III bereft of speech. All that the boy could do was stand and stare, with such despair upon his face that Mushroom feared His Grace might be about to leap from the battlements onto the spikes below, to rejoin his first queen.

It fell to Prince Viserys to make answer. “And my wife, Lady Larra,” he shouted down, “was she a part of this plot too, my lord?” Lord Rowan gave a heavy nod. “She was,” he said. “And what of me?” asked the prince. “Aye, you as well,” his lordship answered dully…an answer that seemed to surprise Marston Waters, whilst greatly displeasing Lord George Graceford. “And Gaemon Palehair, ’twas he who put the poison in the tart, I’ll venture,” Viserys went on glibly. “If it please my prince,” mumbled Thaddeus Rowan. Whereupon the prince turned to the king his brother and said, “Gaemon was as guilty as the rest of us…of nothing,” and the dwarf Mushroom called down, “Lord Rowan, was it you who poisoned King Viserys?” To which the old Hand nodded, saying, “It was, my lord. I do confess it.”

The king’s face grew hard. “Ser Marston,” he said, “this man is my Hand and innocent of treason. The traitors here are those who tortured him to bring forth this false confession. Seize the Lord Confessor, if you love your king…else I will know that you are as false as he is.” His words rang across the inner ward, and in that moment, the broken boy Aegon III seemed every inch a king."

 

"One name was never mentioned, though it hung over the Red Keep like a cloud. In The Testimony of Mushroom, the fool says plainly what few dared say at the time: that there must surely have been another conspirator, lord and master of the rest, the man who set all this in motion from afar, using the others as his catspaws. The “player in the shadows,” Mushroom calls him. “Graceford was cruel but not clever, Long had courage but no cunning, Risley was a sot, Bernard a pious fool, the Thumb a bloody Volantene, worse than the Lyseni. The women were women, and the Kingsguard were used to obeying commands, not giving them. Lucas Leygood loved swaggering about in his gold cloak, and could drink and fight and fuck with the best of them, but he was no plotter. And all of them had ties to one man: Unwin Peake, Lord of Starpike, Lord of Dunstonbury, Lord of Whitegrove, once Hand of the King.”

No doubt others entertained the same suspicions once the plot to kill the king had been unmasked. Several of the traitors had blood ties to the former Hand, whilst others owed him their positions. Nor was Peake a stranger to conspiracy, having once planned the murder of two dragonriders under the sign of the Bloody Caltrops. But Peake had been at Starpike during the secret siege, and none of his supposed catspaws ever spoke his name, so his involvement remained unproven, then as now."

- Lord Peake had nothing to do with any of it. The player in the shadows was Larra Rogare, who was a shadowbinder, possibly same as her mother, Johanna Swann; or Larra/Serenei was the first shadowbinder of their family (with Shiera after her). Mushroom and others didn't suspected Larra, as the mastermind behind all that happened, because they were fools, and chauvinists, and they dismissed women - "The women were women" - as if though women are unable to plan something like that.

 

So Larra Rogare was a shadowbinder (and was able to change her looks, like Arya, when she joined Faceless Men), and possibly a cat-warg (also like Arya).

I will continue in a different post, and will post more quotes (for Johanna is Larra's mother theory, and others).

Also, probably, it will be better to separate different elements of my theory, and to establish separate links, instead of mixing everything together - link between Littlefinger and Braavos; link between Littlefinger and cats; link between Littlefinger and dragonseeds, etc. To prove all those things separately one from the other.

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On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

You say Little finger has cat like eyes but offer no quotes to back that up nor context as to how or when it was said. A lot of information is in when and how and by whom something was said. 

ACOK, Tyrion IV:

"It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile, its great castle as formidable as any in the realm . . . and so large as to dwarf Riverrun, where Petyr Baelish had been fostered by House Tully, only to be brusquely expelled when he dared raise his sights to Lord Hoster's daughter.

Littlefinger took a moment to adjust the drape of his cape, but Tyrion had seen the flash of hunger in those sly cat's eyes. I have him, he knew. "Harrenhal is cursed," Lord Petyr said after a moment, trying to sound bored."

ASOS, Tyrion I - ""Oh, the wretch is dead enough." Though it had been Podrick Payne who'd killed Ser Mandon, shoving him into the river to drown beneath the weight of his armor. "A dead enemy is a joy forever," Tyrion said blithely, though Ser Mandon was not his true enemy. The man had no reason to want him dead. He was only a catspaw, and I believe I know the cat. She told him to make certain I did not survive the battle. But without proof Lord Tywin would never listen to such a charge."

- But it wasn't Cersei, who sent Mandon to kill Tyrion. Varys wanted to keep Tyrion alive. So who else, if not Cersei, and not Varys, could have wanted Tyrion's death? Originally Mandon was from The Vale, same as LF.

It was Joffrey, who sent an assassin to kill comatose Bran, but that guy was hired by Littlefinger. Otherwise how would LF found out, that that catspaw had his dagger, and used it to attack Bran? LF was behind all of it. And that dagger originally also belonged to him. So if that assassin, the castpaw, was sent by LF, he was a cat's paw, thus the cat was LF.

AGOT, Eddard XIII - ""Ah, but when the queen proclaims one king and the Hand another, whose peace do they protect?" Lord Petyr flicked at the dagger with his finger, setting it spinning in place. Round and round it went, wobbling as it turned. When at last it slowed to a stop, the blade pointed at Littlefinger. "Why, there's your answer," he said, smiling. "They follow the man who pays them.""

AGOT, Eddard XIV - "As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Ned's dagger from its sheath and shoved it up under his chin. His smile was apologetic. "I did warn you not to trust me, you know.""

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Penny tells Tyrion that she and Oppo performed once for the Sealord and he gave them a grand gift.  And you have decided this was three Dragon eggs which Elissa stole? And what are you basing that upon? the word grand? or the fact it is the sealord?

On the fact, that it's highly unlikely, that in Essos there are more than one trinity of dragon eggs, that previously had belonged to Targaryens; and also because a guy, who got those three dragon eggs from Elissa Farman, who stole them from Targaryens, was a Sealord of Braavos, same as the great-grandfather of the three bastard-children of Aegon IV and Bellegere Otherys, same as the guy that arranged engagement between Viserys Targaryen and Arianne Martell, same as the guy who possibly gave three dragon eggs to mummer-dwarfs; and then Illyrio, whose best friend, Varys, used to be a mummer, gave three dragon eggs as a wedding present to Daenerys Targaryen.

And in The Mystery Knight novel, there were also dwarfs, that sort of helped Targaryens to get back a dragon egg, that originally belonged to their family. Bloodraven had sent a troupe of mummer-dwarfs, to steal Butterweel's dragon egg from Whitewalls. GRRM is using Dunk&Egg novels to give clues and foreshadowings for the main series. For example, after reading those three novels, I figured out, that Shiera Seastar will eventually become part of the plot in the main series, and that the Ghost of High Heart is Rohanne Webber-Lannister, etc. So, for those who have read those side-novels, and noticed those clues, it won't be a surprise, when Shiera will appear in the main series.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This entire section of the post is you assuming that your ideas are correct when they are based on nothing more than Penny telling Tyrion the sealord  gave them a grand gift. Singular.

He gave a grand gift to each of them. To their father, to Oppo, and to Penny.

ADWD, TYrion VIII - "It was Father's idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift."

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

How is it remotely likely that the sealord who had the eggs in 54AC is the same Sealord who witnessed the marriage contract of Viserys & Arianne in the mid 280's AC?  

And who is the sealord who had a Cat? see without a quote this makes no sense? There are so many details in the series that if you are going to include a small obscure one you need to provide an explanation and or quote. Otherwise your audience might have no idea what you are on about? 

1. The Sealord to whom Elissa Farman sold three dragon eggs, that she stole from Targaryens. In 54 AC.

2. The Sealord who was grandfather of Bellegere Otherys.

Possibly sent his granddaughter to seduce Aegon, to give birth to his babies, in case they will be able to hatch dragon eggs, that were owned by the Sealord's family.

3. The Sealord who named Syrio Forel the First Sword of Braavos.

The guy with a cat.

4. The Sealord that gave a grand gift to each member of mummer-troupe - Hop-Bean, Oppo, Penny.

Grand gift, three of them, could have been three dragon eggs, that for several generations belonged to this guy's family.

5. The Sealord that arranged engagement between Viserys Targaryen and Arianne Martell, together with Doran Martell.

This happened in Willen Darry's house in Braavos, between 284 and 289, prior Dany was 5 years old. Because when she was 5, Willem Darry died, and Dany with Viserys became homeless.

 

3, 4 and 5 is the same person - Ferrego Antaryon, current Sealord of Braavos.

1 is an ancestor of 2.

2 is an ancestor of 3-5.

In this family, House Antaryon, at least three people were Sealords of Braavos.

In 54 AC - 1, prior during and after The Dance of the Dragons - 2, prior during and after Robert's Rebellion and until now - 3-5.

 

When lived Bellegere's grandfather? Probably in the same era as Aegon IV's grandparents - Rhaenyra (born in 97 AC, died in 130 AC) and Daemon (born in 81 AC, died in 130 AC) Targaryens.

Aegon had an affair with Bellegere in 161-171 AC. If Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't died in span of war, at this time they would have been 64-74 and 80-90 years old.

In 300 AC Walder Frey will be 92 years old. At the time of his death, Jon Arryn was 78-80 years old. Ben Blacktumb smithed for the last Lord Lothstons, House Lothstons got extict in span of Maekar's reign, that ended in 233 AC, so Ben is at least 67 years old. Maester Aemon died aged 102. Jeor Mormont died aged 69. Thus, it's likely, that when Aegon was in a relatioship with Bellegere, her grandfather, the Sealord of Braavos, was still alive.

At the time when Elissa stole Targaryen dragon eggs, 7K were ruled by Jaehaerys I Targaryen, who was Rhaenyra's great-grandfather. Though Targaryens usually got married and reproduced faster than average people. So, it seems, that Bellegere's grandfather could have been a grandchild of "Elissa's Sealord" (not a great-grandchild like Rhaenyra was to Jaehaerys, because non-Targaryens reproduced slower).

 

And the reason why I think, that 3, 4 and 5 is the same person, is because all three were fearless and eccentric people, and lived/ruled Braavos at about the same time period - from before Robert's Rebellion and until now.

Only a very eccentric person could have decided to give priceless dragon eggs to mummers, just because they made him laugh. Only a very eccentric person will give a title of the First Sword of Braavos to some random guy, just because he solved a mystery of unmysterios cat. Only a fearless guy would have given those eggs, and that title, to whoever he wanted, without minding, what will do his relatives, or his subbordinates, or other swordsmen of Braavos, that were more outstanding and skilled than Syrio. And what kind of guy would get himself involved with Targaryens, not long after Robert's Rebellion? How likely is it, that in span of those 20 or even less years, from early 280th and until now, in Braavos there was several Sealords, and all of them were eccentric? Which is more likely - that it's the same person, or that the High Seat of Braavos is a magnet for weirdos?

Edit: Wrote continuation in next post.

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On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

LF sends for Penny & Oppo specifically because of the nature of their act. The jousting and the fact they are dwarfs. He does so deliberately to provoke bad feelings and words between Tyrion; who has history of putting Joffrey in his place, and Joffrey who now as King is in a position to get back at his Uncle for the times he asserted authority over him.  Not because they are Braavosi. They are not Braavosi! They are not even Essosian. Their father was a slave yes, but he married a free woman after buying his freedom and Penny speaks the common tongue so where do you think this woman resided? I'd suggest given Tyrion never mentions her speaking any other language and never mentions an accent that she was Westerosi ad Penny & Oppo were raised there, travelling to perform on Essos. 

First of all, it isn't known, whether their mother was a free woman, all that is known about her, is that she was not a dwarf, but whether she was a slave or free, isn't known. But what is known, is that Hop-Bean originally is from Essos, not from Westeros.

ADWD, Tyrion VIII - " "Was she …?" "… a little person? No, but our father was. His own father sold him to a slaver when he was three, but he grew up to be such a famous mummer that he bought his freedom. He traveled to all the Free Cities, and Westeros as well. In Oldtown they used to call him Hop-Bean." "

- there wasn't and still is no slavery in Westeros, and it's unlikely that Hop-Bean's father went all the way to Essos, just to sell there his dwarf-son. And the way it was said, that he traveled to all the Free Cities firstly, and Westeros as well secondly, it means, that originally he was in Essos, and at first he traveled thru Essos, and after going thru all of Free Cities, later also went to a neighboring continent.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why on earth would Penny & Oppo give their dragon eggs to Illyrio?

There could be many reasons. Especially if it was Illyrio who had hired Hop-Bean and his family, to go and perform for the Sealord of Braavos.

If I'm right, that this Sealord is an eccentric person, that it's possible that when Illyrio had approached him, and offered to buy from his those dragon eggs, the Sealord refused, though he could have said something, like he values a good laugh more than all the money in the world, so it served as a clue for Illyrio, how he can get those eggs via different method.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Perhaps they'd sell them? But if so why are they still performing as Mummers? they'd be rich eyond all imagining.

Unless they were specifically hired to get those dragon eggs, maybe to steal them, same as it was done in The Mystery Knight. So when they were given those eggs, they couldn't have just kept them, otherwise Illyrio would have sent his people to kill Hop-Bean and his kids.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And besides which what evidence do you have to link Penny & Oppo with Illyrio? Other than Varys once having been a Mummer.

" "Is that where my sister found you? In Braavos?" "Your sister?" The girl looked lost. "Queen Cersei." Penny shook her head. "She never … it was a man who came to us, in Pentos." "

I assume, that they lived in Pentos. They traveled to other cities of Essos, and sometimes to Westeros, but the place of their residence was in Pentos. Because if they were just visiting Pentos, while they were traveling and performing, then it's a really low probability, that Osmund managed to find them there by pure luck. Somehow Littlefinger knew that in Essos there is a troupe of traveling mummer-dwarfs, that perform that show, with a pig and a dog. And it's not like there's press or advertising or marketing available in that world. And it's unlikely, that their show was so famous, that it was world-wide known. Thus it's more likely that LF knew about them, because he heard from Varys that story, from where did Illyrio got those three dragon eggs. He told that story about those mummers and dragon eggs to Littlefinger, when they were still on the same side, prior LF betrayed Varys. Or LF knew about that story, because his ancesors are from Braavos, and he still has his people/relatives there, and is still in touch with them. And those relatives could be Black Pearls. And because Black Pearls are blood-related to the current Sealord, the one that had dragon eggs and a mystery-cat, they knew from him, that years ago he gave away those eggs to mummer-dwarfs. And because, as I already wrote before, it's unlikely that there are several trinities of dragon eggs in Essos, Littlefinger either knew from Varys/Illyrio, or had figured out on his own, that Dany's dragon eggs are the same eggs, that were given by the Sealord to mummers. And because LF knows about Varys' past, he could have made a connection between Varys/Illyrio and those dwarfs. Thus he knew where he will find them, that they live in Pentos, in "Illyrio's city", because they are connected to him.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Why do you presume Varys bought the troop he used to belong to? what have you based that on? what is there in the text to support it? because without any text to back it up it is nothing more than an idea you have had. 

Yes, it's just an idea. Though isn't it likely, that after Varys became free and eventually rich and powerful, that he would have wanted to get revenge for a master of that troupe that sold him?

ACOK, Tyrion X:

" "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

"The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead." " 

If Varys wants to kill Stannis, just because Stannis may be a sorcerer, then isn't it likely, that he would have also wanted to find that sorcerer, that castrated him, and also other people because of whom it all happened to him?

Also this - 1. Hop-Bean - "He traveled to all the Free Cities, and Westeros as well. In Oldtown they used to call him Hop-Bean."; 2. Varys - "Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing." - it's likely that Hop-Bean did all that traveling, while he was still a slave, and was owned by the same master as Varys.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Next you tell us that Daemon fought a duel with Gwayne Corbray and that LF's Grandfather being in service to a Corbray means he is related to the bastards of Aegon IV. At least that is what I think you are trying to say? But come on this is weak. How many duels are fought in this series or mentioned as historically having happened Does Oberyn fighting Gregor mean Tyene Sand is related to house Clegane?

Perhaps GRRM just want to have some epic VS duels in the books.  

Though, out of all Houses of 7K, for some reason that sellsword went into service of House Corbray, and it happened approximately one generation after First Blackfyre Rebellion. GRRM could have chosen any other House to be employer of LF's ancestor, but he had specifically chosen Corbrays. Why? Because it's connected and relevant for the current plot, and LF's motivation.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This last bit is again just your own ideas. That Bellegere's children would contact the Blackfyres. or the other way round. They might have yes but what evidence is there that they did?

There is no evidence, just that GRRM had already used similar trope several times. Thru arranged marriage to join forces against common enemy - Oberyn Martell went to Braavos to arrange marriage between Viserys and Arianne; Quentyn Martell went to Meereen to offer marriage and aliance to Dany; Calla Blackfyre was promised to marry with Bittersteel, if he will support their family against Targaryens. So it's likely, that the Bastard or his son also went to Braavos, hoping to make an alliance with BlackPearls/Sealords.

Or the reason, why he went there, could be dragons. Same as Daemon II Blackfyre went to 7K, thinking that he will hatch a dragon at Whitewalls. Maybe the Bastard also had a gift of foresign, but it was as flowed as Daemon's. Daemon thought that going to Whitewalls will make him a King of 7K, though the one who will eventually get Iron Throne, will be great great grandson of Daemon I Blackfyre - fAegon. Maybe the Bastard thought, that if he will go to Braavos, then he will get Harrenhal. But the one, who eventually got Harrenhal, is his great great grandson - Littelfinger.

A dragon that hatched at Whitewalls, was Egg, Aegon V Targaryen, and a dragon that hatched at Braavos, was the Bastard's son, and LF's great grandfather, that sellsword.

It wasn't a secret, that the Sealord of Braavos had three dragon eggs. Because after Elissa Farman stole them, King Jaehaerys I had sent maester Barth, as an envoy to Braavos, to get them back, but the Sealord refused. And this infromantion was mentioned by maester Gyldayn in his manuscript. He lived long after that event, but he knew about it, so it was known. Maybe not known to general public, but known to some people. Same as it wasn't a secret, that Aegon IV gave a dragon egg for Ambrose Butterwell.

So there are several reasons, why and what for, could he (the Bastard) have went to Braavos. And it's not as ridiculous as what you wrote - "If you are going to make theories out of might haves then Robert Baratheon might have married Mya Stones mother making her a legitimate heir to the IT." - even if Mya was legitimate, she's still a girl, and females were never allowed access to IT. And there's no reason for Robert to marry with that woman, and he didn't even loved her, and a marriage with her wasn't as benefitial for him, as a marriage with Cersei Lannister, while there were reasons for the Bastard to go to Braavos.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And GRRM has made no hints in any chapters which Illrio apears in that he has any mixed heritage or is related to the Black Pearl.  in fact he has specifically not linked them.

In my opinion, Illyrio is a descendant of Saera Targaryen's children, and higher on his family tree (closer to his generation) is a descendant of Aerion Brightflame's bastards, that he fathered during his exile in Lys.

On 6/5/2019 at 12:31 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Which alludes to the war between Rhaenyra & Aegon II, which will be repeated by Illyrio through his son fAegon trying to usurp Danaerys.  

fAegon, as son of Illyrio and Serra, is too simple, and thus, not in GRRM's style.

On 6/5/2019 at 2:36 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Or that house Whent was descended from the bastard of Harrenhall or why this Whent took part in the bringing down of house Lothston? 

Because Lothstons remained rulers of Harrenhal even after death of King Baelor and Viserys, only because Aegon left it for his daughter, Jeyne, and his son/grandson, Manfryd. Thus he thought that Harranhal is his by right, that it was given to him by his real father, but he can't have it, because of Lothstons, that think that Harrenhal is theirs. So he had to get rid of them, to get what was his (at least he thought, that Harrenhal is rightfully his).

On 6/5/2019 at 2:36 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

He also places Aegon out of the country in the period in which Jeyne Lothston was conceived.

In 161AC Naerys nearly dies in childbirth, Aegon is sent to Braavos where he conducts a decade long affair with Bellegere, in 171 Naerys gives birth again.  There are no known bastards born to Aegon in Westeros between Rosey in 158 & Daemon in 170.  This means Aegon was likely in Braavos whilst Jeyne was conceived. Now there are rumours but as we know rumours can spring up despite being impossible.

Or maybe there were rumors like that, because at that time Aegon was in Westeros, not at Braavos, and thus, he could be Jeyne's father.

Aegon was in a relatioship with Bellegere for 10 years, 161-171.

For example, if they met in January of 161, then their 10th anniversary is in January of 171. And it was said, that they were together for a decade, not close to a decade, but for full 10 years. And Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170, while Aegon was still with Bellegere, thus at that time (in 170 or 169), when Daemon was conceived, Aegon was in Westeros.

Just because Aegon at that time was in a relationship with Bellegere, doesn't mean, that he didn't had sex with other women. There are evidences of the opposite, that he was unfaithful.

It was said about Bellegere, that she had a man in every port, that's why paternity of her children was questionable. And about Aegon it was said, that he never went to bed alone, and didn't fell asleep without having sex prior that. So when Bellegere was away, traveling, Aegon took other women into his bed.

 

I think, that this is the most logical order of events:

1. In early 161 King Daeron I was killed in Dorne, and Aemon the Dragonknight was imprisoned by Dornishmen.

2. Aegon was ordered to give away Casella Vaith. She was sent to the dungeons, to await execution with other Dornish hostages.

3. Baelor became King (Viserys remained as the King's Hand), and personally escorted those hostages back to Dorne.

They were riding on horses, and he was walking, all the way from King's Landing, thru Boneway pass in Red Mountains, past castle Wyl (where was kept Dragonknight), down to castle Vaith, and to Sunspear, and from Sunspear back to Wyl.

4. Baelor was bited by vipers, but managed to free Aemon.

Baelor became comatose, and Aemon was carrying him on his back, thru Boneway. In a village located on the Boneway a septon gave Aemon clothes and an ass (donkey), and they went to Blackhaven of Dondarrions. There Baelor was given medical help by local maester.

5. From Blackhaven Aemon took the King to Storm's End. Baelor regained consciousness on their way to SE.

6. For six months after that, they were staying at SE, because Baelor was not fit for traveling.

All that time, while Baelor was away from KL, 7K were ruled by Viserys.

7. Baelor returned to KL. Naerys gave birth to twins, that shortly died. Baelor fasted for a moon's turn, and also sent Aegon as an envoy to Braavos.

It was Baelor who sent Aegon to Braavos, not Viserys, while Baelor was away. Thus it had happened already after Baelor's return from Dorne and Storm's End.

It is known that when Naerys gave birth to those twins, Baelor was already a king. Because it was said that the king fasted for a moon's turn, not just that Baelor faster for a moon's turn.

Immediately after he became king, he went to Dorne. Because he wanted to make peace with them, and to save Dragonknight. Thus, it's highly unlikely, that at that time he had stayed for 30 days in KL, to fast after death of Naerys' children, because to go to Dorne was an urgent mission.

Also he was walking on foot, so he needed strength for that journey. And he couldn't have fasted on his way to Dorne and Wyl and Sunspear, because he couldn't have walked, if he also additionally starved himself while traveling.

Afterwards for six months, that he was staying at Storm's End, he was in a post-comatose condition, too weak to travel. So it's unlikely, that maesters allowed him to fast for 30 days, while he was in that condition. If in addition to his strenuous traveling, being bitten by numerous poisonous snakes, he would have also starved himself, then he would have died. He died 10 years later, aged 27, when he was fasting for 40 days. If he died after 40 days of not eating, even though prior that he wasn't poisoned by snakes, and wasn't in a coma, then how could he have survived 30 days of starving, when he was in such a bad condition, after his journey to Dorne? He would have died, if he starved then.

Which means, that that moon's turn of fasting, happened already after his return from Dorne, after he had spent 6 months at Storm's End, and since his poisoning and coma had passed enough time to regain his health. It was said that he fasted, when Naerys' children died. Thus those children were born, when Baelor was already back in KL, and that was more than 6 months since beginning of 161.

It took Baelor some time to walk on foot from King's Landing to Sunspear, and then for Aemon to bring him to Storm's End, minimum 2 months + 6 more months until they went back to KL. Thus Naerys' children were born not earlier than in September of 161, or maybe even later.

Thus Aegon was sent to Braavos not earlier than September of 161, and thus his relatioship with Bellegere lasted at least until September of 171. And Daemon Blackfyre was born in 170. And because it's highly unlikely, that Daena had run after Aegon all the way to Braavos, it's more likely, that Aegon at that time was in King's Landing, not at Braavos.

Which is a evidence, that he wasn't living in Braavos in span of his decade long relatioship with Bellegere. She was the one who was visiting him, not the other way around. So Jeyne Lothston can be Aegon's daughter, even if she was conceived in 160s.

 

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