Platypus Rex Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 The purpose of this thread is to present, and explore, a series of interconnected hypotheses for you all to shoot down. I'll just lay them out without too much elaboration. Bonifer Hasty is Dunk's descendant; as are his 3 grandchildren by way of his son Rhaegar through his love affair with Rhaella. The tragedy of Summerhall was the trauma that caused him to lay aside his lance and devote himself to the Faith. Rhaegar, Bonifer's son, initially believed he was TPTWP; he also believed he united the lines of Aerys and Rhaella. He realized this was not so when he realized Aerys was not his father. To unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, he had to unite with one (or more) of Aerys' bastards daughter(s) from the many flings Aerys had with court ladies. He deduced that the Princess of Dorne had had a fling with the tweenaged Aerys, and bore a daughter, Elia, shortly after leaving court. So he sought out Elia and married her. But after Aegon, Elia can have no more children. "There must be one more", says Rhaegar. He sires 2 more children with one or more secret bastards of Aerys. These are either Ashara, or Lyanna, or both. I'll leave the identity of their secret children up in the air for now. I'll leave it up in the air whether Ashara and Lyanna had one child apiece, or whether one had twins (or "Irish twins"). I'll also leave up in the air the identity of the secret children. I do not necessarily assume, for instance, that Young Griff is the real Baby Aegon. Lyanna gets her Stark features from her mother, who is a Stark by birth as well as by marriage; her unearthly beauty comes from the Mad King. Ditto Ashara. Thus do the 3 heads of the dragon (whoever they are, unite the lines of Aerys, Rhaella, and Duncan the Tall. They are Elia's son; Lyanna's child (or children); and/or Ashara's child (or children). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Wait when did duncan the tall have kids? I thought he became a kings guard eventually. I am not saying your wrong or lying I just haven't heard about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted May 30, 2019 Author Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, snow is the man said: Wait when did duncan the tall have kids? I thought he became a kings guard eventually. I am not saying your wrong or lying I just haven't heard about it. GRRM has said, in interviews, that there is a descendant of Dunk in the current story. That is well documented. At one point, he was reported to have said that there were four (4) descendants of Dunk running around. But nobody can now find or verify that quote. That Bonifer is such a descendant is only theory, like most of the above propositions. Most prefer the theory that Brienne is Dunk's descendant (and not by way of Bonifer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Valicious Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I don't understand the point of this. What does it bring to the story? Let's humor you and say Rhaegar is not Aerys' son. He's still a dragon himself by his mother. So all the children he has can be the one of the 3 heads. They are just not TPTWP if we believe Jenny (who seems rarely wrong). Then you seem to forget Dany. There's one certainty she's the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys conceived after a rape if not witnessed at least heard by several people. So whatever else happened with Rhaegar and his potential offspring, Dany is one of the heads. Or are we to assume here again that suddenly she's the daughter of some other guy? So one other conclusion would be that she is the Prince... Another thing is if Elia or anyone else was a known bastard of Aerys why would he have sent people to find a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar? He would just have married him with one of these daughters, any of them would have done. He settled on Elia because she was the one who had the most Targaryen blood in that generation. The only thing your theory could explain is why Rhaella did not like Elia... That's one of my conclusions based on Viserys' low opinion of Elia. His mother sheltered him from Aerys as much as she could. From there it's an easy step to take and to say that his opinion stems from Rhaella, things he heard her say or even her behavior, I'll take that step lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White26 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 If we are looking for Duncan's children, then viable possibilites are some (Tytos) or all of the children of Gerold Lannister and Rohanne Webber. She disappeared eventually after giving birth to Jason Lannister. Imagine both Jamie and Brienne being descendants of ser Duncan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 On 5/30/2019 at 2:14 AM, Lady Valicious said: I don't understand the point of this. What does it bring to the story? I'm just playing connect the dots and exploring certain options. If you could tell me what happened at Summerhall, maybe I could tell you how it all fits together. What does Brienne being Dunk's descendant bring to the story? Nothing that I can see. But that idea seems very popular. Me, I don't have any specific explanation, other than it suggests a reason and purpose behind certain random details of the story. Such as Bonifer being very tall, and honorable, and a former lover of lady Rhaella, and haunted by some mystery tragedy. Such as Aerys and Rhaella's difficulties producing viable offspring; such as Rhaegar being taller than a brother that supposedly shares 80-90% of his genes Etc. etc. I could go on and on. Perhaps I presume too much when I assume that people here remember all the details I remember and can connect the same dots in the same way. But I get lazy sometimes. On 5/30/2019 at 2:14 AM, Lady Valicious said: Let's humor you and say Rhaegar is not Aerys' son. He's still a dragon himself by his mother. So all the children he has can be the one of the 3 heads. They are just not TPTWP if we believe Jenny (who seems rarely wrong). I am assuming that the "3 heads of the dragon" means something more specific than a Targaryen, or a Valyrian, or a dragon-seed bastard. So sure. Rhaegar is a "dragon", but probably not one of the 3 heads of the dragon. We don't really know what this prophesy said or meant. And we are left to guess what Rhaegar knew or believed about it. And we are forced to guess on the basis of his behavior, because he never really explained himself to us. Here, you seem to accept, for the sake of argument, that the 3 heads will be Rhaegar's 3 children. But you reject that they all have to unite the lines of Aerys and Rhaella. Okay, sure. I suppose that's possible. But if anyone would do, as Rhaegar's second wife, or concubine, to bear other head(s) of the dragon, then why all the fuss? Why did he need to hold a Tourney at Harrenhall, and invite all the nobles of the kingdom? What specific quality was he hoping to see in the eyes and faces of the daughters of the nobles of the kingdom? Why make off with Robert Baratheon's fiancé and plunge the kingdom into war? It all seems so unnecessary, if, as you suppose, anyone would do. On 5/30/2019 at 2:14 AM, Lady Valicious said: Then you seem to forget Dany. There's one certainty she's the daughter of Rhaella and Aerys conceived after a rape if not witnessed at least heard by several people. So whatever else happened with Rhaegar and his potential offspring, Dany is one of the heads. Or are we to assume here again that suddenly she's the daughter of some other guy? So one other conclusion would be that she is the Prince... I did not forget Dany. The hypothesis I presented was quite flexible about her. Either (1) she is not one of the 3 heads of the dragon; or (2) she is the daughter of Rhaegar (either by Lyanna or Ashara, for instance). The baby born on Dragonstone may have died. That's what happened to 95% of the children sired on Rhaella by Aerys. Or perhaps Dany is indeed that baby, notwithstanding the theories to the contrary. But in the latter case, she would not be a "head of the dragon" under the current hypothesis. Her role might, instead, be to be a daughter of the mad king, a dark dragon, and a villain. On 5/30/2019 at 2:14 AM, Lady Valicious said: Another thing is if Elia or anyone else was a known bastard of Aerys why would he have sent people to find a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar? He would just have married him with one of these daughters, any of them would have done. He settled on Elia because she was the one who had the most Targaryen blood in that generation. I said nothing about "known" bastards. Aerys liked to fool around with married noblewomen, and the children of such unions are generally credited to the husband. Even if Aerys knew about his bastard girls, it does not follow that he would want his son to marry one. He would probably have considered them bastard mongrels, unsuitable for a prince. I am aware of no evidence that Aerys approved of Elia. She seems to have been Rhaegar's choice, grudgingly accepted by Aerys only because no-one else could (supposedly) be found. Perhaps Steffon was working for Aerys when he went to Essos to look for a bride, but was working for Rhaegar when he failed to find anyone "suitable". Rhaegar, perhaps, had specific reasons for wanting to choose his own bride. The Princess of Dorne was one court lady who returned home to Dorne and bore a child (Elia) shortly afterwards. Officially, the father is her husband, who supposedly got her pregnant the instant she got home. On 5/30/2019 at 2:14 AM, Lady Valicious said: The only thing your theory could explain is why Rhaella did not like Elia... I know of no evidence that Rhaella did not like Elia. Aerys did not like Elia, and, if any explanation is required for Viserys' attitude, perhaps he got it from his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 On 5/30/2019 at 4:02 AM, White26 said: If we are looking for Duncan's children, then viable possibilites are some (Tytos) or all of the children of Gerold Lannister and Rohanne Webber. She disappeared eventually after giving birth to Jason Lannister. Imagine both Jamie and Brienne being descendants of ser Duncan. Why would we refuse to consider a very tall, honorable, tournament knight, with no rank higher than "landed knight", who was present at the court of Aegon V, was a lover of Rhaella, and is haunted by some mysterious tragedy? Apparently people prefer the theory that Dunk cuckolded the lord of Tarth, was surprised when he came home, and Dunk had to run away leaving his shield behind. Does not sound like Dunk to me. Why is that even popular? I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 "Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor." Old Nan would be the right age for Dunk's future visit of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Ygrain said: "Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor." Old Nan would be the right age for Dunk's future visit of Winterfell. I'm not sure Nan would be the right age. A 60+ year old wetnurse, for Brandon, seems a bit of a stretch. Besides, I think Nan would need more than tiptoes. She would probably need a stool as well. Anyway, I'm not sure what you're suggesting about the topic. Obviously, Bonifer may or may not be Dunk's son or grandson regardless of whether Dunk kissed Old Nan. He might even be Old Nan's son or grandson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said: I'm not sure Nan would be the right age. A 60+ year old wetnurse, for Brandon, seems a bit of a stretch. She came to Winterfell to nurse a Brandon Stark, which one is unsure, only that his mother had died birthing him. This Brandon Stark is believed to be either the brother of Lord Rickard Stark or a brother of his father. 1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said: Besides, I think Nan would need more than tiptoes. She would probably need a stool as well. Spine degenerates with age. In her youth, Nan could have been a pretty normal height. 1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said: Anyway, I'm not sure what you're suggesting about the topic. Obviously, Bonifer may or may not be Dunk's son or grandson regardless of whether Dunk kissed Old Nan. He might even be Old Nan's son or grandson. I'm suggesting Hodor may be Dunk's descendant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ygrain said: She came to Winterfell to nurse a Brandon Stark, which one is unsure, only that his mother had died birthing him. This Brandon Stark is believed to be either the brother of Lord Rickard Stark or a brother of his father. Fair enough. I stand corrected. 10 minutes ago, Ygrain said: Spine degenerates with age. In her youth, Nan could have been a pretty normal height. Like I said. She would have needed a stool. Someone like Tanselle could have gotten away with tiptoes, except her hair was black, not brown. 10 minutes ago, Ygrain said: I'm suggesting Hodor may be Dunk's descendant. Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 14 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: Like I said. She would have needed a stool. Someone like Tanselle could have gotten away with tiptoes, except her hair was black, not brown. Per Dunk, Tanselle was the right height for kissing, so I doubt she would have needed to stand on tiptoes. That suggests someone of more average height, and the vision doesn't say the tall knight didn't bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted June 1, 2019 Author Share Posted June 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Ygrain said: Per Dunk, Tanselle was the right height for kissing, so I doubt she would have needed to stand on tiptoes. That suggests someone of more average height, and the vision doesn't say the tall knight didn't bend. If a tall man bends, he can kiss most things that go on two legs. But, for all I know, it may be that all that is being implied here is that the woman was the one to initiate the kiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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