Space Launches, Landings, and Destinations - SpaceX Thread #3

[ithanos]

$14.1 million sounds like survey funds. I think it'll only be LTE/4G over a small footprint - essentially a moon base and immediate surrounds. On the grander scale, replicating terrestrial technology for lunar infrastructure seems kind of backwards. Since we're seeding from above why not deploy Starlink like satellites around the moon (you'll need a lot less than what they're deploying for the Earth), and then drop in and set-up ground stations and other back-haul infrastructure as required.

Eventually we may also need an operational GPS system for the moon. Apparently NASA has already been studying this, although this is using existing (Earth) systems. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/gps-moon-it-can-work

JPL scientists calculated whether the signals from terrestrial positioning systems; GPS (USA), GLONASS (Russia) and Galileo (EU) could be picked up on the Moon. It was found that signals from 5-13 of the 81 satellites could be received in lunar orbit, offering accuracy to 200m-300m. For the surface of the moon, a relay satellite or two could help bridge blind spots at the poles and in craters. The coverage would only be for the side facing the Earth and its positioning satellites, but this is where we'll be first.   

 

[Starkess]

I know that the far side of the moon is a promising site for a radio telescope, as the radio band is getting very noisy these days around Earth. I hope they are taking that sort of thing into consideration. (Haven't read up on it, just my first reaction.)

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 10/18/2020 at 3:37 PM, SpaceChampion said:

Nokia wins a contract from NASA to put a cell network (4G initially, eventually 5G) around the Moon.

That doesn't change the speed of light, so those scenes in Away of the crew calling Earth on their cell phones are still stupid.

Are we now going to get 5G conspiracy theories about lizard people on the Moon monitoring Earth through our cell phones?  I kind of hope so...

 

You're clearly one of the mole people trying to distract us with lizard people conspiracies! 

[SpaceChampion]

 

[SpaceChampion]

Another Starlink  launch.

Starship SN8 has done and passed its static fire tests, and now it's fully stacked.  Building up to a 15km launch soon.

Great animation of the Raptor engine gimballing:
 

And pitch, roll and yaw control:
 

 

[SpaceChampion]

A great thorough article on the development evolution of SpaceX's Starship, from it's initial conceptions through 12 variants to the latest developments leading up to first launch to 15km.

The Starship alone (without the Super Heavy 1st stage booster) is nearly (11/12ths)  the same mass as a Falcon Heavy.

 

[SpaceChampion]

Details from the Starlink beta offer:

Quote

It's called the Better Than Nothing Beta.

• Estimated speeds 50Mbps to 150Mbps

• Estimated latency 20ms to 40ms

• Some interruptions in connectivity to be expected

• $499 for the phased array antenna and router

• $99 per month subscription

 

 

[Altherion]

3 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Details from the Starlink beta offer:

This is not competitive with wired internet in urban and suburban areas, but it is much better (orders of magnitude in speed, somewhat in price) than the satellite services available in most rural places. I wonder whether this roughly the cost they eventually intend to charge or if there's an early adopter premium here.

[SpaceChampion]

It's not meant for urban and suburban markets which have plenty of options already.  Starlink wouldn't be able to handle that customer base, and don't intend to.

[ithanos]

That latency figure is impressive. They applied to the FCC earlier in the year to be able to build more ground stations and this could further improve latency.  

I heard somewhere that this beta phase may be geo-locked, so you can't take the antenna & terminal and travel - but that might change. Still, if I was a rural customer in North America I'd be salivating.

[rotting sea cow]

14 hours ago, ithanos said:

That latency figure is impressive. They applied to the FCC earlier in the year to be able to build more ground stations and this could further improve latency. 

Well. There was an article somewhere claiming that starlink, etc were actually aimed to hyperfast trading, because of that very low latency.

[Ran]

Musk apparently trying to lay groundwork to claim that no international treaties regarding space will reach as far as Martian orbit in the Starlink TOS.

Sounds kooky to me. He does realize that his whole business could be frozen and his rockets grounded in a trice, right, if he really did start trying to lay claim to Mars?

[Altherion]

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

Musk apparently trying to lay groundwork to claim that no international treaties regarding space will reach as far as Martian orbit in the Starlink TOS.

Sounds kooky to me. He does realize that his whole business could be frozen and his rockets grounded in a trice, right, if he really did start trying to lay claim to Mars?

It's a joke motivated by quite a few different science fiction stories. He's not laying claim to Mars, he's saying that the Martian settlements will have their own laws and conflict resolution mechanisms. Since Martial settlements (not to mention Starlink on Mars) are a long way off, the statement is mainly for amusement.

[SpaceChampion]

On 10/28/2020 at 2:40 PM, Ran said:

Musk apparently trying to lay groundwork to claim that no international treaties regarding space will reach as far as Martian orbit in the Starlink TOS.

Sounds kooky to me. He does realize that his whole business could be frozen and his rockets grounded in a trice, right, if he really did start trying to lay claim to Mars?

SpaceX is 7000+ people, he doesn't write the TOS himself.  No nation has any claim on Mars, though movement towards adopting a kind of "law of the sea" type right to materials used in place or returned to the Earth.  There aren't martian fishes to trawl however, so little reason to return anything to Earth.

The existing UN treaties are about how Earth-based nations deal with each other, not with any off-world settlement.  Since the UN treaty signatories agree none can claim territory on Mars and elsewhere, no nation's laws can apply.  Yet when offering Starlink service on Mars to settlers, SpaceX will have to operate under some governing authority's rules, and the only legal option seems to be self-governance by Martian settlers.

I would wager anyone settling Mars, Americans for instance, would have to give up their citizenship in whatever nation they come from, before they can claim a right to participate in the polity of Mars.  Martian governance might be informal for a while, but a civil structure should emerge as rapidly as people starting arguing about things.

[SpaceChampion]

Rocket Lab launch

 

[ithanos]

On 10/29/2020 at 5:40 AM, Ran said:

Musk apparently trying to lay groundwork to claim that no international treaties regarding space will reach as far as Martian orbit in the Starlink TOS.

Sounds kooky to me. He does realize that his whole business could be frozen and his rockets grounded in a trice, right, if he really did start trying to lay claim to Mars?

I wouldn't be surprised if they deliberately seeded it there to raise the debate for a Mars Treaty. If in 50yrs we have America Mars, China Mars, Russia Mars, Whoevercanlandtheretoplantaflag Mars then it would be disappointing that we become a 2 planet species only to carry over our divisions. We have scientific & resource centric treaties in the Antarctica Treaty System and the Moon Treaty (interesting to note who are parties/non-parties to them) but the way SpaceX is looking towards Mars, its with colonisation in mind. So we definitely need an updated colonisation plan to what was used a few hundred years ago. Might have to go back and re-read KSR's Mars Trilogy to see how this all ends.

 

[Starkess]

On 10/28/2020 at 4:40 PM, SpaceChampion said:

SpaceX is 7000+ people, he doesn't write the TOS himself.  No nation has any claim on Mars, though movement towards adopting a kind of "law of the sea" type right to materials used in place or returned to the Earth.  There are martian fishes to trawl however, so little reason to return anything to Earth.

The existing UN treaties are about how Earth-based nations deal with each other, not with any off-world settlement.  Since the UN treaty signatories agree none can claim territory on Mars and elsewhere, no nation's laws can apply.  Yet when offering Starlink service on Mars to settlers, SpaceX will have to operate under some governing authority's rules, and the only legal option seems to be self-governance by Martian settlers.

I would wager anyone settling Mars, Americans for instance, would have to give up their citizenship in whatever nation they come from, before they can claim a right to participate in the polity of Mars.  Martian governance might be informal for a while, but a civil structure should emerge as rapidly as people starting arguing about things.

Yes, this is my understanding as well. The Outer Space Treaty is mostly focused on nations and militaries, and so I don't think it's really a cut and dried thing. If he tried to claim the Mars for the USA, then yes, but I've not seen any indication he's interested in that.

[Corvinus85]

Wow, we're already talking about the MCR? 

[SpaceChampion]

By the way @Starkess if you're interested in these sorts of topics and want to help influencing U.N. and international space policy with like minded space scientists / engineers, and networking with them, check out the Space Generation Advisory Council.

 

[SpaceChampion]

GPS III launch