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RYShh

What were Daenerys's plans for Jon in the long term?

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14 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Sansa did not view Dany as her queen, so to Sansa it was not treason.  Sansa was defending the North and it's hard-won independence.  Sansa is not Littlefinger, even if she has learned things from him.

The North wouldn't exist without Dany, which seems to be conveniently ignored. Danys contributions seem to be glossed over when considering her because of myopic obsession against the reality that leaders need to enforce their rule. 

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14 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It so disgusted the founding fathers of the United States that treason is the only crime in that country's constitution: levying war against that country or aiding those who did so

Which is both chilling and heartbreaking because it's exactly what they had to do.

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55 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

We have fundamental disagreements on morality, cost/reward of actions on the part of leaders and duty to genetic family.

There’s no such thing as “duty to genetic family”. Period.

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20 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

There’s no such thing as “duty to genetic family”. Period.

We don't agree. 

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3 hours ago, Techmaester said:

The North wouldn't exist without Dany, which seems to be conveniently ignored. Danys contributions seem to be glossed over when considering her because of myopic obsession against the reality that leaders need to enforce their rule. 

That isn't conveniently ignored.  The North thanks Dany and is grateful to her.  But they still want their independence and won't willingly kneel to her.  Similar to the Free Folk.  They were saved too, but didn't bend the knee.   I don't understand what you mean by your last sentence.   The North did not view her as their ruler.   With the lone exception of Jon.

 

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Posted (edited)

Once you understand that the 3YR’s role was to make sure everyone in this story were exactly in the right place to achieve what he saw in the future (Bran/3YR being King) then it just seems to me all these debates about Dany and/or Jon appear irrelevant. They both were never going  to rule anyway. 

Edited by TheFirstofHerName

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34 minutes ago, TheFirstofHerName said:

Once you understand that the 3YR’s role was to make sure everyone in this story were exactly in the right place to achieve what he saw in the future (Bran/3YR being King) then it just seems to me all these debates about Dany and/or Jon appear irrelevant. They both were never going  to rule anyway. 

When did Bran/3ER become Dr. Strange?

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5 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

That isn't conveniently ignored.  The North thanks Dany and is grateful to her.  But they still want their independence and won't willingly kneel to her.  Similar to the Free Folk.  They were saved too, but didn't bend the knee.   I don't understand what you mean by your last sentence.   The North did not view her as their ruler.   With the lone exception of Jon.

 

Then they should have been left to die or they should be forced to as payment for Danys service. Either one would have been appropriate action on Danys part. 

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How exactly did Dany help the North in the fight with the NK?  She provided the NK with his dragon.  Her Dothraki went on a meaningless charge which only provided more troops for the AOD.  The Unsullied did provide some cover for the retreating North men, but who knows if that did more than balance the damage she did.

And none of that matters.

The battle at Winterfell would have gone identical with or without her armies.  With or without her dragons (on both sides).

The AOD wreak havoc until the NK decides to go kill Bran.  1 naked wildling standing in front of the gate or 8000 Unsullied.  Nothing changes.

NK goes to kill Bran when he feels like it's time.  Super ninja Arya kills NK.

Dany's armies did nothing, the Northern armies did nothing, Theon's "heroic" stand did nothing, Jon's playing Dragon's Lair did nothing.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Then they should have been left to die or they should be forced to as payment for Danys service. Either one would have been appropriate action on Danys part. 

You do realize that that would paint Dany in quite a bad light?  Willing to allow a million people (the whole North) to die if they won't bend the knee.   Wow.  What a tyrant.  That's in the territory of (in modern times) Stalin.  Definitely in the territory of Cersei, who did just that.

 

Dany agreed to help w/o asking the North bend the knee.  Then she expects the North to do just that.

 

Dany apparently lacks the ability to understand the viewpoint of those who disagree with her and also the ability to compromise.  Bad things to lack in a ruler.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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32 minutes ago, Techmaester said:

Then they should have been left to die or they should be forced to as payment for Danys service. Either one would have been appropriate action on Danys part. 

So in 1946, the US should have demanded that Britain submit to annexation?  France also?  Belgium?  The Netherlands?  Denmark?

I'd ask the same about the Soviet Union and nations like Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland (its eastern half, pre-War), among others, but the Soviet Union did just as you say.

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8 minutes ago, legba11 said:

How exactly did Dany help the North in the fight with the NK?  She provided the NK with his dragon.  Her Dothraki went on a meaningless charge which only provided more troops for the AOD.  The Unsullied did provide some cover for the retreating North men, but who knows if that did more than balance the damage she did.

And none of that matters.

The battle at Winterfell would have gone identical with or without her armies.  With or without her dragons (on both sides).

The AOD wreak havoc until the NK decides to go kill Bran.  1 naked wildling standing in front of the gate or 8000 Unsullied.  Nothing changes.

NK goes to kill Bran when he feels like it's time.  Super ninja Arya kills NK.

Dany's armies did nothing, the Northern armies did nothing, Theon's "heroic" stand did nothing, Jon's playing Dragon's Lair did nothing.

She did provide the dragon glass and the men to mine it. Moreover, Arya would not get the chance to kill the Night King if not for the tough delaying  resistance offered by Dany's massive armies. Even Arya herself admitted that they "needed her dragons and armies" in the scene where Jon reveals to her and Sansa that he is Aegon. Plus, the NK getting a dragon was probably a blessing in disguise as it was necessary to get him fighting at the front or else he'll always be inaccessible behind his horde of wights. Moreover, the Hound had a vision in season7E1 about the army of the dead passing around the wall (frozen water maybe?). So Dragon or not, NK was coming. 

Moreover, without dragon glass, Drogon or Rhaegal, the northmen probably would not attempt to fight, or use Bran as bait since they only did so because they thought dragon fire ambush could kill the NK. It would just be one long retreat with Bran to Moat Cailin and probably into the Vale. Meaning the NK would have an army of unimaginable numbers by then.

I personally feel that Stannis killing Mance was the single biggest act that empowered the Night King. If he had done a deal and allowed the wildings south of the wall quickly, the Night King would not have those hundreds of thousands of wights, while the living would probably be able to garrison every castle along the Wall (with Stannis 10K army to counterbalance the wildings). I feel the Lord of Light forsakened him because of this mistake and his hasty dash to Winterfell.

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How did delaying the army help?  I realize Dumb and Dumber had her say that, likely because they realize how flimsy their storyline was.  The only sensible interpretation of the NK's action during that battle was to use his army to grant him safe egress into the grove to kill Bran.  If he wanted his army to just kill Bran, they would have done so.  As soon as the path was clear, he stopped their attacks (on the grove) and walked in himself, not even allowing his captains to cover him as the last defender attacked him (Theon) or as he approached Bran.  If Bran had been left "alone", with super ninja Arya hiding with her super ninja powers, he would have just walked in and the scenario would have been identical.

 

And the dragon is the key to the invasion.  For seven seasons, he has made no attempt to breach the wall.  He gets a dragon, he instantly breaches the wall using the dragon.  There is no way to not direct put that on Dany's shoulders.

 

I do agree on Stannis, that was a critical failure, also.  Unsurprisingly, since it wasn't a D&D joint (they simplified it a bit), it was true to Stannis's tragic flaw.

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On 5/30/2019 at 10:40 PM, SeanF said:

She wants to share power and her bed with him.

 

On 5/30/2019 at 10:42 PM, Techmaester said:

It was clear she wanted to marry him and have them jointly go on campaign of reformation continuing the Targaryen legacy.

Do you guys believe that?

Even Varys said ; 

Spoiler

 

''Tyrion: If we marry them, they could rule together.

Varys: She's his aunt.

Tyrion: That never stopped a Targaryen before.

Varys: No, but Jon grew up in Winterfell. Is marrying your aunt common in the North? You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She does not like to have her authority questioned. ''

 

 

I've to agree with this;

On 5/31/2019 at 2:51 AM, legba11 said:

There is nothing to indicate she would share power.  She wanted him to accede to her will and continue to be her lover.

 

And if she marries with him, I doubt the Iron Throne would still belongs to her, Kings>Queens after all, I don't remember any instance where the Queen sits on the Iron Throne but not the King.

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On 6/2/2019 at 12:49 AM, Tywin Tytosson said:

  The North thanks Dany and is grateful to her. 

What? The show tells the exact opposite; the only person who tells Dany something that sounds as a "thank you" is Tormund!

The Starks are suddenly transformed into Lannisters, the Northern commoners are portrayed as xenophobic or even racist (that scene with Missandei and the two young girls! YUCK!!!)

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30 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What? The show tells the exact opposite; the only person who tells Dany something that sounds as a "thank you" is Tormund!

The Starks are suddenly transformed into Lannisters, the Northern commoners are portrayed as xenophobic or even racist (that scene with Missandei and the two young girls! YUCK!!!)

I agree with you. Irrelevant to the discussion, yet somehow in topic, I have come to feel disgust of this show or story or whatever as it literally has nothing good to say about human nature. The good guys turn to bad guys and that that’s all folks. Thanks for watching. 

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10 hours ago, RYShh said:

 

And if she marries with him, I doubt the Iron Throne would still belongs to her, Kings>Queens after all, I don't remember any instance where the Queen sits on the Iron Throne but not the King.

The show never even glanced in this direction.  There was plenty of evidence she was NOT planning on sharing power and believed herself the sole person qualified to rule the world.  Even when she spoke to Jon about ruling together, it was in the context of, "since you agree with me".

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21 hours ago, RYShh said:

 

Do you guys believe that?

Even Varys said ; 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

''Tyrion: If we marry them, they could rule together.

Varys: She's his aunt.

Tyrion: That never stopped a Targaryen before.

Varys: No, but Jon grew up in Winterfell. Is marrying your aunt common in the North? You know our queen better than I do. Do you think she wants to share the throne? She does not like to have her authority questioned. ''

 

 

I've to agree with this;

 

And if she marries with him, I doubt the Iron Throne would still belongs to her, Kings>Queens after all, I don't remember any instance where the Queen sits on the Iron Throne but not the King.

Queen Regent’s husband don’t usually get the title of King. He would be a prince consort plus whatever title she chooses to give him. 

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2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Queen Regent’s husband don’t usually get the title of King. He would be a prince consort plus whatever title she chooses to give him. 

I forgot about the prince consort, but is there any example of it in Asoiaf history? 

Even then would she even do that? Legitimize him as a royal family?  I doubt she would even make him hand of the queen, since she was afraid of people would plot against her and I doubt she would give a royal power to his command.

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