The business of ASoI&F fandom

[SFDanny]

A question. Is it only me, or are others here irritated by the plethora of self-described "experts" on Martin's work who make money by charging for premium content based on nothing but profoundly pronounced comments over what looks to be stolen fan art? I have no problem with supporting real fans and encouraging many different views, but I have a problem with charlatan experts, without basic respect for other people's work, charging money from people who can't tell a knowledgable fan from a con artist. I doubt anyone is making lots of money, but as a principle question of good conduct, it irritates the hell out of me.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

Such as??? Haha

Ive lost count of how many times I’ve read the books so I feel I have a good of a gasp of the content as most people on here but I’m also well aware that I can learn a lot from other’s perspective’s. Who’s charging money for their “knowledge?” I’m really at a loss. Youtubers? Podcasters? Please fill me in. 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Yes, but nobody is being forced to donate money, and they can spend their money however they like.  I find a lot of their material helpful, but I am a freeloader that would never donate.  What is weird to think about is that it is all money George and Company essentially left on the table by not keeping up with demand and finishing the series and/or being too vague and cryptic in his writing. 

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

This is nothing more than capitalism.  People with time on their hands found they can make money off youtube simply by coming up with predictions that are no better than the ones we can make here.  But understand that the average book reader is not like us.  They do not have the time nor the inclination to join forums to find answers.  The business of life and family take time.  It is much easier to spend a few mins on YT per week and listen to somebody else's opinion.  I can not fault them.  

[Faera]

I agree to an extent though I do not begrudge them for it. If people can make a quick buck spinning yarn on youtube then good for them. A lot of the time people subscribe to them for their character and style as much as they do the theories. No one is obligated to pay them and if they do take advantage of people around them or their fanbase then fandom can be pretty quick to withdraw support. 

[sweetsunray]

It takes time and resources to make it all, and neither Wordpress podcasts and Youtube content can be made for free if it exceeds certain data storage. So, I can see why people would at least try to get a return from investment for it. Publishing interpretations of books and literature has always been part of the business. So, that by itself neither offends nor irritates me. That said, I chose not to go that route, and instead remain an essay author whose online work remains freely accessible, despite my yearly fund for data content on Wordpress out of my own pocket. It takes time, a lot of time, to research, read and write and come up with a consistent quality essay. It takes at least a month to produce a well worked out theory, allowing time to solve riddles in your mind, to question yourself and be sceptic of your own initial ideas, and also involves other people you discuss stuff with. So, once you go for money on Youtube or even Patreon and Wordpress, you'll be expected to put out content on a much shorter time span, and the content itself is not allowed to take too much attention span anyway. So, imo, it leads to lower quality overall, even if one might be a gem. Instead of creating content based on well thought out ideas, you end up coming up with ideas to create content to make money, and a lot of those end up forced and without enough self-sceptic quality control.

It's the same with written essays. It's recommended that essays do not take more than 6000-8000 words. Mine are easily double of that, because the 6000 words thing, prevents me from making the point and providing enough textual evidence for the idea/theory.

Another issue is that once you earn money over it, your personna becomes way more invested in being right. It becomes harder for the content maker to change their mind on something. There are parts of far older essays that I consider as amendable, points or issues I'm willing to concede they need to be dropped. Exactly, because I never made any money out of it, I don't feel I'm being unfaithful to simply edit my older content to match my newer views.

So, my overall issue with a lot of the money content is not that they make money out of it, but that it compromises the potential quality and your own ability to be sceptic or even change your mind.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

I do get a bit irritated by the egotistical types who want to turn their ASOIAF knowledge into some kind of platform where they are routinely worshipped. It is most disingenuous. But ultimately I am so grateful to everyone who's put time into researching one aspect or another. Their years of work (paid, or not) have been picked up by others, re-examined, combined with other theories, re-worked when new material comes out and so on. 

As for the profiteering, that's life. And honestly, if I could earn money by burying myself in my favourite books then I just would.  It must be great to be a f/t ASOIAF expert. 
 

16 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

This is nothing more than capitalism.  People with time on their hands found they can make money off youtube simply by coming up with predictions that are no better than the ones we can make here.  But understand that the average book reader is not like us.  They do not have the time nor the inclination to join forums to find answers.  The business of life and family take time.  It is much easier to spend a few mins on YT per week and listen to somebody else's opinion.  I can not fault them.  

This. I actually enjoyed discovering the theorists and trawling through huge essays. When I discovered the Winterfell Huis Clos I was a very very happy guy. But most really just want the business end of the theories. They don't want the journey of discovery. 
 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So, my overall issue with a lot of the money content is not that they make money out of it, but that it compromises the potential quality and your own ability to be sceptic or even change your mind.

And this is absolutely 'spot on' in my opinion. 

[kissdbyfire]

I agree w/ points made by @SFDanny, @Faera and @sweetsunray. 

I don't necessarily mind that some try to get a return on their investment, both financial and all the time and reasearch they put into creating content. Fair enough. 

But then there’s another side to it... there’s a whole bunch of “fandom famous” people now, as a friend aptly calls them (I’ll let said friend come forth and claim authorship of this brilliant description as I’m not Melisandre and don’t want to throw anyone in any fires.  ) and some that fall into this category can be... a tad much for my taste. And the big question here is, what will the “fandom famous” do once Martin finishes his story? Because from what I’ve seen, they are mostly very off IMNSHO. We shall see, I suppose.

[The Fattest Leech]

On 5/30/2019 at 12:46 PM, SFDanny said:

A question. Is it only me, or are others here irritated by the plethora of self-described "experts" on Martin's work

Hello SFDanny. I do agree with the base of your sentiments regarding the fandom famous , however, with all due respect to many of the more honest theorists, I would not call them experts. They are making the same theories that the rest of us do as they do not have more or less information than the rest of us. Some people just have more time to build big theories (I know I do sometimes, but not nearly as much as some). This next line is not meant as a brag, but I know for a fact that I have read significantly more works by GRRM as a whole than many (all?) of these famous theorists, and I in no way, shape, or form would call myself an expert on Martin- but I do like to follow his literary patterns, for sure. The few videos I watch nowadays sometimes do give me a chuckle when people make comments like, "GRRM would never do this in his work," and I'm like, "bold claim because he's done it four times already, but whateves." 

Maybe it isn't so much that some of these theorists claim to be the expert, but those that follow are the ones making the claim?

On 5/30/2019 at 12:46 PM, SFDanny said:

who make money by charging for premium content based on nothing but profoundly pronounced comments

People can ask for money and others can pay or not. It is up to them. I chose to spend my money on the canon material and all the other books that make up the Planetos universe. THAT is where you'll find the answers to the riddles, and only then IF GRRM decides he will provide an answer for such. I often say that the clues to GRRM's work is in GRRM's works. He is his biggest inspiration. Now, discussing it with others is healthy and normal and fun (should be anyway). Sometimes a poster like me has to throw a crackpot out there to "work it out". Most are fails, but that's ok because now I know better. I vehemently disagree with those theorists that claim they work in a bubble and all ideas are their own. Nah. I don't believe it nor do I think this makes for the best theories. If you are going to stick your head out there, and ask for money, you need to have a strong sounding board to discuss ideas, find holes, find confirmations, find the pattern, etc., otherwise we get streams of whacked out crackpot that make zero narrative sense. Boring.

On 5/30/2019 at 12:46 PM, SFDanny said:

over what looks to be stolen fan art?

Do you mean the artwork used in the videos not being credited? Just want to be sure I understand you here.

I had heard this was an issue a while back, but I assumed this issue improved?

On 5/30/2019 at 12:46 PM, SFDanny said:

I have no problem with supporting real fans and encouraging many different views, but I have a problem with charlatan experts, without basic respect for other people's work, charging money from people who can't tell a knowledgable fan from a con artist. I doubt anyone is making lots of money, but as a principle question of good conduct, it irritates the hell out of me.

Time has value. If people are willing to pay then these people see value in the videos they follow. The biggest thing that grinds my gears with some of these videos and essays are when the theory author misquotes, doesn't fully quote, doesn't provide the parallel (counter) example, or relays info out of order- basically twisting the text to try and "prove" their theory.

I do like one particular duo (but I am waaaay behind in listening to them). I enjoy the way they read large chunks of book text, they explain their ideas, they add in other fandom ideas, and make clear that it is ultimately up to the listener to decide. I sometimes do not agree fully with their conclusions, but the presentation was done well, and without seeming oh-so-edgy by swearing a lot, creating 10 hour hate videos, weirdo crackpot with little/no text support (clickbait!).

Finally, the way the fandom famous interacts with not just cheering fans, but those who critique and ask real questions in return says the most about them