Frey branch

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

So, with so many Frey in the story how aren't there Frey branches ? I mean Starks have (Karstark), Arryn have, Lannister's have even Tyrells have. Could be interesting if a frey succession civil war happens and there were, many different branches

[Seams]

I think the "junior" branches of Houses are established if a there is a seat (castle) available and a younger son who does something worth the promotion to landed knight or lord. House Frey makes all of its money from tolls, I think, charging people to cross the river using their bridge. So maybe they don't have much land or extra castles that could be divided from the main house.

Of course, up until this generation, House Frey may have had a normal number of descendants and no pressing need for a junior branch. It's Lord Walder's ability to keep procreating that has suddenly led to this population explosion.

The Frey civil war may already be happening, in slow motion. We are hearing about strange deaths of potential Frey heirs and rumors that some of the deaths may have been inflicted by family members. I think GRRM has set up different characteristics and alliances among the Frey descendants: one group (through son Emmon) is loyal to the Lannisters; "Gatehouse Ami" has her Darry home base, a failed Lannister alliance but a budding Crakehall alliance; "Fat Walda" is now Lady Bolton; the Rosby group may all be Tully fans, now that Roslin is Lady Tully.

We may see a number of conflicts arise as the various Frey Houses (based on the maiden House of each of Walder's wives) decide which house to support in the evolving political landscape.

[Bernie Mac]

Walder is still alive, all his children, grandchildren and great grandchildren are under his branch. Once he dies there will be many branches from his sons, but not until then,

There are actually other Frey branches though as Walder's fourth son married an Alys Frey, who is not from Walder's branch while his sixteenth son Benfrey married Jyanna Frey from a nonWalder branch.

[Hugorfonics]

6 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

So, with so many Frey in the story how aren't there Frey branches ? 

There is a different branch. Emmon Frey is the second son and lord of Riverrun. 

6 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

I mean Starks have (Karstark), Arryn have, Lannister's have even Tyrells have.

By the Tyrells I assume you mean Garlan whos now the Lord of Brightwater Keep.

The Lannisters have Lannisport through some distant cousin Im not sure how distant, probably less then Stark and Karstark.

Arryn does not though, thats the whole issue of Harrys inheritance

6 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

Could be interesting if a frey succession civil war happens and there were, many different branches

I don't see anything going great for Emmon Walder or anyother Frey. Itll be fun to see it playout, I do see some kinslayers in the future id not flatout civil war

[The Sleeper]

I suppose it depends on what constitutes a cadet branch. I would have assumed that a younger son is considered to have founded a branch when he produces offspring and acquired lands, effectively forming a new house, but Nestor Royce is considered to be of the junior branch without an attendant seat, so it is probably as fluid as everything else in the series. 

I believe there are supposed to be distant cousins to all houses who have for the most part faded into obscurity and would have little beyond the name to distinguish them. 

As for the Freys, they shouldn't be any different from other houses. Walder's fecundity appears to be unprecedented. In future generations there should have been quite a few new sprouts, but after the Red Wedding the survivors will either change their names or go into exile. 

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Arryn does not though, thats the whole issue of Harrys inheritance

 

LF mentions that there are many arrryn branches that have pride but lack in riches. One of them is in Gulftown

[Lord Vance II]

There are probably loads of cadet branches that we just don't hear about. I'd imagine most take their lead from the main branch so they're not really mentioned. 

To establish yourself as a noteworthy cadet you need a seat, land and money. I'd imagine Walder isn't too keen on spending his wealth on this plethora of sons, many of which he doesn't seem to care too much about. 

[Megorova]

21 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

Starks have (Karstark), Arryn have, Lannister's have even Tyrells have.

That's because those four (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, and Tyrells) are overlords of their region. Starks are rulers of The North, Tyrells are rulers of The Reach, etc. White House Frey is not an overlord, they themselves are just retainers/bannermen of a bigger Lords - Tullys of Riverrun. So Freys can't just make a new House, without permission from Tullys. And there's no point for Tullys to allow Freys to create a side-branch, because in this case, that new House will be bannermen of Freys, not bunnermen of Tullys. That would have distanced Tullys from the people, that they control, instead that control would have been taken over by Freys.

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's because those four (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, and Tyrells) are overlords of their region. Starks are rulers of The North, Tyrells are rulers of The Reach, etc. White House Frey is not an overlord, they themselves are just retainers/bannermen of a bigger Lords - Tullys of Riverrun. So Freys can't just make a new House, without permission from Tullys. And there's no point for Tullys to allow Freys to create a side-branch, because in this case, that new House will be bannermen of Freys, not bunnermen of Tullys. That would have distanced Tullys from the people, that they control, instead that control would have been taken over by Freys.

That doesn't mean much as for example, the fossoways have 3 branches and in the riverlands there is also a house that has two branches the Vances

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's because those four (Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, and Tyrells) are overlords of their region. Starks are rulers of The North, Tyrells are rulers of The Reach, etc. White House Frey is not an overlord, they themselves are just retainers/bannermen of a bigger Lords - Tullys of Riverrun. So Freys can't just make a new House, without permission from Tullys.

Sure they can. They can't make Lords, but they can make knightly Houses.

"My bannermen include a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights." - Wyman Manderly

Walder, as the most powerful vassal Lord in the Riverlands, is going to have a similar amount of vassals under him, the vast majority of which will have been made by the Freys.

All Lords in the series have vassals underneath them that control smaller parts of their lands and that were made by them. Some of those vassals will be younger members of the family rewarded by the Lord at the time.

Though it should be noted that a title does not make a branch. The Arryns of Gulltown are a separate branch that has no official title and have existed for over two centuries. They've stayed notable due to their wealth rather than status.

Every son of Walder is the originator of their own branch while still being part of Walder's branch. Once he dies then they all become independent branches, each son the head senior member of their branch.

 

Quote

 

And there's no point for Tullys to allow Freys to create a side-branch, because in this case, that new House will be bannermen of Freys, not bunnermen of Tullys. That would have distanced Tullys from the people, that they control, instead that control would have been taken over by Freys.

I think you are confusing land and titles with branches here.

The Tully's would likely not care two figs if Walder split his land and divided it between his sons. All those 'new' Frey Houses would still be vassals of the Tullys. If Walder made all his sons landed knights on Frey property then the Tully's could not do anything about it, nor would they be too bothered, as it would still be

 

Lord Paramount (Tully) → Lord (Frey) → Vassal of Lord (Frey Branches)

 

 

 

[Megorova]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

They can't make Lords, but they can make knightly Houses.

That's the point. Now (at least prior the War of the Five Kings) only King of 7K (or his Hand, or the Small Council) could have made someone a Lord, a NEW Lord, not just take from someone else already existing title and castle and grant it to someone else, like Harrenhal was given to Littlefinger. Before Targaryens there were other Kings. Starks were Kings of The North, so the Stark King granted his son with lordship and castle, and that's how was created new House Karstark, led by Lord Karstark. Walder Frey can give a part of his lands, and build a new castle for one of his sons, but he has no authority to make that son a Lord. Obviously, that Freys can go away from the Twins, and settle in different keeps, but that won't make them in relation to a main branch of House Frey a different separate branch, like Karstarks in relation to Starks.

For certain lord to give lordship to his vassal, he has to get permission for that from the King. Because just by giving a piece of land to someone, you can't turn that someone into a lord, he will be just a landed knight (if he is a knight, and just a land owner, if he is not a knight).

[Bernie Mac]

35 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That's the point.

Not really given OP is asking about other Frey branches, not other Frey Lords. He cites the Arryns as an example and there is no other Lord Arryn but there are other branches of the House.

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

On 5/31/2019 at 9:24 PM, Megorova said:

That's the point. Now (at least prior the War of the Five Kings) only King of 7K (or his Hand, or the Small Council) could have made someone a Lord, a NEW Lord, not just take from someone else already existing title and castle and grant it to someone else, like Harrenhal was given to Littlefinger. Before Targaryens there were other Kings. Starks were Kings of The North, so the Stark King granted his son with lordship and castle, and that's how was created new House Karstark, led by Lord Karstark. Walder Frey can give a part of his lands, and build a new castle for one of his sons, but he has no authority to make that son a Lord. Obviously, that Freys can go away from the Twins, and settle in different keeps, but that won't make them in relation to a main branch of House Frey a different separate branch, like Karstarks in relation to Starks.

For certain lord to give lordship to his vassal, he has to get permission for that from the King. Because just by giving a piece of land to someone, you can't turn that someone into a lord, he will be just a landed knight (if he is a knight, and just a land owner, if he is not a knight).

The Vances have to branches without permission of the king that we know of, and the Farwynds have also two branches

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

On 5/31/2019 at 9:24 PM, Megorova said:

That's the point. Now (at least prior the War of the Five Kings) only King of 7K (or his Hand, or the Small Council) could have made someone a Lord, a NEW Lord, not just take from someone else already existing title and castle and grant it to someone else.

 

Then how did the Fossoways create a second branch without any permission in Dunk and egg? Or the Vances in the dance?

[Baelor 'Breakspear']

On 5/31/2019 at 12:49 AM, Seams said:

I think the "junior" branches of Houses are established if a there is a seat (castle) available and a younger son who does something worth the promotion to landed knight or lord. House Frey makes all of its money from tolls, I think, charging people to cross the river using their bridge. So maybe they don't have much land or extra castles that could be divided from the main house.

Of course, up until this generation, House Frey may have had a normal number of descendants and no pressing need for a junior branch. It's Lord Walder's ability to keep procreating that has suddenly led to this population explosion.

The Frey civil war may already be happening, in slow motion. We are hearing about strange deaths of potential Frey heirs and rumors that some of the deaths may have been inflicted by family members. I think GRRM has set up different characteristics and alliances among the Frey descendants: one group (through son Emmon) is loyal to the Lannisters; "Gatehouse Ami" has her Darry home base, a failed Lannister alliance but a budding Crakehall alliance; "Fat Walda" is now Lady Bolton; the Rosby group may all be Tully fans, now that Roslin is Lady Tully.

We may see a number of conflicts arise as the various Frey Houses (based on the maiden House of each of Walder's wives) decide which house to support in the evolving political landscape.

I think the civil war will be between 7 frey branches (because of the 7 wifes of Walder),with some inner fighting between sons and grandsons of those branches to take the lead of the branch

[The Wondering Wolf]

1 hour ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

Then how did the Fossoways create a second branch without any permission in Dunk and egg? Or the Vances in the dance?

Raymun Fossoway did not create a second branch in 209 AC, he just chose a personal sigil which would later become the coat of arms of the second branch. We still do not know how exactly the New Barrel Fossoways were established.

The two branches of the Vances go back at least to the days of the Teague dynasty in the riverlands, so around 700 years ago.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Baelor 'Breakspear' said:

 

Then how did the Fossoways create a second branch without any permission in Dunk and egg? Or the Vances in the dance?

Weren't Vances separated into two branches even before Targaryens became Kings of 7K (even prior Riverlands were conquered by Harren Hoare. Vances of Atranta, and Vances of Wayfarer's Rest both were petty kings in times of Andals. No?)?

And about green Fossoways - it isn't known what exactly happened after Ashford Meadow, how exactly was created House Fossoway of New Barrel. Just because Raymun re-painted his shield with green apple instead of red apple, it didn't made him a lord. Could be that years later, it was Egg who granted lordship to Raymun, remembering his help to Dunk in that trial of seven. Either Egg asked his father to allow Raymun to create new House, or it happened when Egg became King. Probably.

 

For any man (or woman) in 7K to legitimize his bastard-child, he needs the King's permission. And granting a lordship is something significally more serious. So, logically thinking, the lordship could be granted only by the King (or Queen). Isn't that how it was in real world, in times of Kings and Queens and Lords?