Is Rhaegar and Lyanna's secret marriage truly valid for Targ Iron Throne Succession?

[Br16]

1 minute ago, legba11 said:

Jon's better claim has nothing to do with his cock.  He is above her on the line of succession being the child of the crown prince.  If Jon was a woman and Dany was a man, he would still be above her in the line of succession.  It wouldn't have mattered anyway as Dany was taking the throne through conquest AND none of her supporters were following her due to her lineage.  Yara and her three ships were the only Westeros house on her side at that point.

 

D&D were trying to poke up some sympathy for Dany before she went batshit by using the gender issues, but it made no sense.  If they had presented it like the men in charge of armies would be more likely to follow him due to his cock, then it would have made sense.

The problem is that Jon may very well be the illegitimate child of the crown prince as his parents married without Royal Assent, in a ceremony without witnesses, with an annulment from Elia that could not be valid. Only trueborn can inherit the Targaryen name. 

If Jon was a woman and Dany born a man, and assuming Jon is a trueborn, he would be above Daenerys under normal Westerosi succession laws, but way back down under House Targaryen succession rules. House Targaryen has extreme male preference (due to the Dance of Dragons debacle) laws that means no women Targ could inherit as long as there is one trueborn man bearing the Targaryen name still alive, no matter how distant. 

[A Manwoody Grown]

On 6/4/2019 at 3:29 AM, legba11 said:

Jon's better claim has nothing to do with his cock.  He is above her on the line of succession being the child of the crown prince.  If Jon was a woman and Dany was a man, he would still be above her in the line of succession.  It wouldn't have mattered anyway as Dany was taking the throne through conquest AND none of her supporters were following her due to her lineage.  Yara and her three ships were the only Westeros house on her side at that point.

 

D&D were trying to poke up some sympathy for Dany before she went batshit by using the gender issues, but it made no sense.  If they had presented it like the men in charge of armies would be more likely to follow him due to his cock, then it would have made sense.

Yep, the show writers didn't know what they were talking about there. Although it's interesting to note that while you're describing the general inheritance rules in Westeros, Fire and Blood suggests that over the years House Targaryen painted itself into a trickier precedent. Specifically, there's a legal precedent set by Jaehaerys I inheriting the throne despite his older brother having had two living daughters. This was obviously mostly an ad hoc situation emerging from the chaos of Maegor's rule, but a lawyerly person could argue that this would make Jon the preferred heir even if, say, Rhaegar had been Dany's younger brother. Of course, as everyone's noting, power resides where men believe it resides, and all that really matters is who's able to defend their claim with force or diplomacy.

[legba11]

I haven't read his side projects, yet.  Was that a power grab (where they just redid the rules because he had the power) or potrayed as legitimate succession?  After that succession did no Targaryen ever have a daughter first?

[Br16]

6 hours ago, legba11 said:

I haven't read his side projects, yet.  Was that a power grab (where they just redid the rules because he had the power) or potrayed as legitimate succession?  After that succession did no Targaryen ever have a daughter first?

I think the ultra male preference Targ succession laws was because of the Dance. So the Great Council of 101 basically decided that all true born Targ males are now ahead of any true born Targ female, and no dude could inherit from the female line. Thus, if Maester Aemon was somehow released from all his various Order vows, then by Targ law, Daenerys would have to yield to him as King. 

I think the problem with the Taragryens is that the Dragonlord ways of Old Valyaria are fundamentally incompatible with Feudal Westeros. In Valyria, things are simple: If your DNA checks out enough to control Dragons, you're in the ruling club. It doesn't matter if you're man or woman, or got your DNA by  incest, adultery or polygamy. And you could do whatever it took to keep that DNA pure. 

However these things matter in Westeros as power is based on everybody swearing oaths and those oaths of loyalty being inherited in a specific way. That's probably another reason why Tywin did not remarry as he didn't want to have more true born kids to threaten Jaime's claim. 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

I'd like to give Aegon and Queen Alicent an honorable mention on the 'screw you' Olympics. Rhaenyra's biggest downfall seems to be the brutal tax policy she had to implement to maintain the capital and support war costs.

Abandoning KL but only after emptying the money drawer? Awesome.

[A Manwoody Grown]

On 6/8/2019 at 12:02 AM, Br16 said:

I think the ultra male preference Targ succession laws was because of the Dance. So the Great Council of 101 basically decided that all true born Targ males are now ahead of any true born Targ female, and no dude could inherit from the female line. Thus, if Maester Aemon was somehow released from all his various Order vows, then by Targ law, Daenerys would have to yield to him as King. 

I think the problem with the Taragryens is that the Dragonlord ways of Old Valyaria are fundamentally incompatible with Feudal Westeros. In Valyria, things are simple: If your DNA checks out enough to control Dragons, you're in the ruling club. It doesn't matter if you're man or woman, or got your DNA by  incest, adultery or polygamy. And you could do whatever it took to keep that DNA pure. 

However these things matter in Westeros as power is based on everybody swearing oaths and those oaths of loyalty being inherited in a specific way. That's probably another reason why Tywin did not remarry as he didn't want to have more true born kids to threaten Jaime's claim. 

It even precedes the Council of 101. Jaehaerys had to be hardline in opposing female inheritance because otherwise his nieces Aerea and Rhaella would have had a stronger claim to the throne than he did, since they were the daughters of his older brother and his older sister (the fact that he nonetheless recognized them as his heirs shows how ad hoc the whole system was).