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The Plutionian Others


sweetsunray

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On 6/7/2019 at 3:47 PM, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

I was about ten when I saw Arachnaphobia. And I still get shivers remembering Peter Jackson's 'it's how they move' explanation. The Others have that repetitive pattern of motion. Slow and measured, then fast and exact. From them to the Wights.

Also, the naphta thing? Somewhat out of left field, but us sci-fi geeks, right? Weren't there alien lifeforms inside a comet/meteorite (can't remember but I think it was a comet impact) in an old X-Files episode? Not that I have enough background in the area, but your theory of a base block organic residue developing into an inhuman lifeform gells more with the collective memory 'fear' aspect than having the Others simply be a botched weapons experiment by the CotF. Calling them Other, for one?

How that then would develop into a hive awareness is even scarier, once I considered that our primordial soup new lifeform, as a seed or heart, could copy from any organic lifeform? Adapt an advanced lifeform, like a gifted human with extras and an efficient lifeform, arachnid, and I totally creeped myself out.

X Files episode? The entire series from season 4 on revolves around the black oil (AKA Purity and black cancer) and the Colonists, who were here since the beginning of human evolution. They had to leave the planet during the ice age because their viral form couldn't handle the cold. They left behind the black oil as first seen in Piper Maru. :) 

There's also The Blob. Anyone seen that? 

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3 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

X Files episode? The entire series from season 4 on revolves around the black oil (AKA Purity and black cancer) and the Colonists, who were here since the beginning of human evolution. They had to leave the planet during the ice age because their viral form couldn't handle the cold. They left behind the black oil as first seen in Piper Maru. :) 

There's also The Blob. Anyone seen that? 

The Alien franchise went with black oily stuff too.

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On 6/7/2019 at 9:15 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

The link includes life without carbon. Here's a relevant section:

 

I was actually thinking silicon when I wrote that. Silicon is the #2 most abundant element on Earth after oxygen. #3 is aluminum. :) 

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36 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

X Files episode? The entire series from season 4 on revolves around the black oil (AKA Purity and black cancer) and the Colonists, who were here since the beginning of human evolution. They had to leave the planet during the ice age because their viral form couldn't handle the cold. They left behind the black oil as first seen in Piper Maru. :) 

There's also The Blob. Anyone seen that? 

Thanks! The channel I used to watch the X-Files on way back when changed the time slot and I went a bit woah in trying to pick up from season 3 onwards until it just became too much effort. Was it Tunguska?

Black oil ick will always mean aliens to me!

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11 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Thanks! The channel I used to watch the X-Files on way back when changed the time slot and I went a bit woah in trying to pick up from season 3 onwards until it just became too much effort. Was it Tunguska?

Black oil ick will always mean aliens to me!

Actually the black oil first appeared in Season 3, not 4. My bad. Tunguska was Season 4. That's the one where the meteorite was discovered that might have traces of alien bacteria and Mulder and Krycheck get thrown into the gulag. Interestingly, AH84001 was discovered the same year, 1996. :) 

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You have most definitely explained "what" the white walkers are, but left out their origin - unless I missed that part? Have you considered that the white walkers are flesh made ice?

I am thinking one of the take aways from Varamyr's chapter is to describe his human spirit floating free of his body. I theorize that white walkers are human spirits that have been transformed and solidified using magic to create an ice body, which would fulfill the author's description of a "different sort of life". This would also - in my opinion - be in line with GRRMs statement that he didn't know if the white walkers had their own culture. If death of the human body is the price for this different sort of life, then it is a type of afterlife, and not bound by human society or culture. It would also explain why they dissipate into a mist when the magic spell is broken by obsidian. After the spell is broken the spirit is released and left untethered, floating in the breeze like Varamyr, until it too ends up going into the trees, rocks, and streams. I suppose it's also possible to go into an animal if the original human were also a skinchanger and still had a connection to something living.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The Alien franchise went with black oily stuff too.

As a former D&D player from the late 70s and early 80s, I'm also reminded of Gary Gygax's gelatinous cube. LOL And then there are Lovecraft's Shoggoth. Speaking of Lovecraft, there is a creature called Han, AKA The Dark One that's made of cold mist. :) 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You have most definitely explained "what" the white walkers are, but left out their origin - unless I missed that part? Have you considered that the white walkers are flesh made ice?

I am thinking one of the take aways from Varamyr's chapter is to describe his human spirit floating free of his body. I theorize that white walkers are human spirits that have been transformed and solidified using magic to create an ice body, which would fulfill the author's description of a "different sort of life". This would also - in my opinion - be in line with GRRMs statement that he didn't know if the white walkers had their own culture. If death of the human body is the price for this different sort of life, then it is a type of afterlife, and not bound by human society or culture. It would also explain why they dissipate into a mist when the magic spell is broken by obsidian. After the spell is broken the spirit is released and left untethered, floating in the breeze like Varamyr, until it too ends up going into the trees, rocks, and streams. I suppose it's also possible to go into an animal if the original human were also a skinchanger and still had a connection to something living.

Maybe they've always existed in the Lands of Always Winter but had no reason to come south? Or maybe they're elemental creatures like the dragons. 

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What if, by arriving in Lands of Always Winter, they not only use the flesh of the living, but have bent Winter to their Will, as an adaptative measure? 

What if, they are a sort of emptiness that consumes? 

It would make it necessary for the elements and magics, or gods, the whole of creation, to stand against them. 

They called them Winter, but those of Winter have stood against them and used the Cold in building the Wall that was made to hold them back. They called them Death, but they do not represent death, more a defiance of death as, like said above, the flesh still moves and the spirit might as well be trapped within it. They called them Night, but even night is part of day. 

They are the sort of dark that can be defined as the antithesis or compete absence of Light.

They are completely incompatible with any of the facets of the cycle of life or 'normality'. They are Other.

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48 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

Maybe they've always existed in the Lands of Always Winter but had no reason to come south? Or maybe they're elemental creatures like the dragons. 

I believe they are elemental creatures like dragons. Dragons are said to be magical creatures of "fire made flesh". I think the white walkers are their inverted parallel - the other side of the magic coin - and flesh made ice. Both seem to require human sacrifice to create. Drogon does seem to have some of Drogo's qualities. Maybe his spirit went into the dragon? Some of the historical Targaryens believed that they too could be transformed into dragons. Where did they get this idea? Perhaps there is an unknown magical ritual that can transform a human spirit into a white walker?

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You have most definitely explained "what" the white walkers are, but left out their origin - unless I missed that part? Have you considered that the white walkers are flesh made ice?

I am thinking one of the take aways from Varamyr's chapter is to describe his human spirit floating free of his body. I theorize that white walkers are human spirits that have been transformed and solidified using magic to create an ice body, which would fulfill the author's description of a "different sort of life". This would also - in my opinion - be in line with GRRMs statement that he didn't know if the white walkers had their own culture. If death of the human body is the price for this different sort of life, then it is a type of afterlife, and not bound by human society or culture. It would also explain why they dissipate into a mist when the magic spell is broken by obsidian. After the spell is broken the spirit is released and left untethered, floating in the breeze like Varamyr, until it too ends up going into the trees, rocks, and streams. I suppose it's also possible to go into an animal if the original human were also a skinchanger and still had a connection to something living.

It's a series, Feather Crystal. The WHAT is +20000 words alone. There's another one on the way about their armor as "mirror" (tipping a toe into their magic, their current strategic goals), . Then another would explore their armor as camouflage going into magic and their conception/making. And then finally one about the CotF in particular (basically that they've got nothing to do with the Others). So, that's a series of about 100k words total.

Our first essay establishes that they are highly intelligent spiders who just look humanoid. That is why they would have no culture. I doubt you consider the manticores as having some sort of culture.

Your proposal is off imo, because dead people become wights, and all the Others look like each other's twin. That said, the Corpse Queen story, suggests some conception process where she ended up using human "seed and soul", but not in the way exactly as you describe. If say Varys' cutting was used by a human sorcerer to empower the Others (wake them or gift seed to the Corpse Queen), then Varys still has a soul.

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3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I believe they are elemental creatures like dragons. Dragons are said to be magical creatures of "fire made flesh". I think the white walkers are their inverted parallel - the other side of the magic coin - and flesh made ice. Both seem to require human sacrifice to create. Drogon does seem to have some of Drogo's qualities. Maybe his spirit went into the dragon? Some of the historical Targaryens believed that they too could be transformed into dragons. Where did they get this idea? Perhaps there is an unknown magical ritual that can transform a human spirit into a white walker?

Dragons have been born before without sacrifice.

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3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's a series, Feather Crystal. The WHAT is +20000 words alone. There's another one on the way about their armor as "mirror" (tipping a toe into their magic, their current strategic goals), . Then another would explore their armor as camouflage going into magic and their conception/making. And then finally one about the CotF in particular (basically that they've got nothing to do with the Others). So, that's a series of about 100k words total.

Our first essay establishes that they are highly intelligent spiders who just look humanoid. That is why they would have no culture. I doubt you consider the manticores as having some sort of culture.

Your proposal is off imo, because dead people become wights, and all the Others look like each other's twin. That said, the Corpse Queen story, suggests some conception process where she ended up using human "seed and soul", but not in the way exactly as you describe. If say Varys' cutting was used by a human sorcerer to empower the Others (wake them or gift seed to the Corpse Queen), then Varys still has a soul.

My apologies for asking and discussing a question in advance of a section that has yet to be posted, but in my defense was never mentioned as a future subject. 

Yes the dead raise as wights, but my proposal would include a sacrificial ritual where humans voluntarily are sacrificed explicitly to be transformed. 

As for looking alike - what does a spirit look like anyway? We have physical forms in various heights, weights, ages, and features, but spirits are invisible - at least to most - and nothing says they resemble their prior physical form.

The Other that became a queen was most likely still in human form as the LC who was the Nights King should have great difficulty giving his seed to a body of ice. His member surely would have froze off, unless you decipher that bit as cutting off his own manhood as an offering?

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Dragons have been born before without sacrifice.

I understand that Sheepeater may have been hatched without the burning of human sacrifice, but I don’t think that we can know that for sure. I expect magic is necessary for development, because as magic waned so did their existence, growing smaller and smaller until even their eggs ceased to hatch.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Dragons have been born before without sacrifice.

Wonders if these were wilder or riskier for their owners.

 

Everybody's kind of talking about spirit transfer for Others, just with different window dressing and terminology.

I' m convinced there's a direct human to dragon transformation method and you get after effects in the gene pool like babies with lizard tails, and crazy firebug Targs who keep trying to burn themselves back into dragon form, like they know to spark their firy blood and hope it ignites the transformation.  But it don't.   But some kind of crossover event between species is what formed the basis of the dragon bonding of Targs.  Blood brothers with drakes.  They lost the magic song to do it with.  The song that Otherizes folks has been sung more recently, looks like.

 

The wet blanket of science, applied to the long night:

The surface temperature would plummet well below the human survival range, like, fast.   So..... let's not focus on that.

 

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The spirit must be formless, else the host it inhabits would change to look like it. Orell’s eagle continued to look like an eagle even after both Orell and Varamyr were inside and I doubt Thistle would have begun looking like Varamyr had he succeeded in taking her body. 

30 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Wonders if these were wilder or riskier for their owners.

 

Everybody's kind of talking about spirit transfer for Others, just with different window dressing and terminology.

I' m convinced there's a direct human to dragon transformation method and you get after effects in the gene pool like babies with lizard tails, and crazy firebug Targs who keep trying to burn themselves back into dragon form, like they know to spark their firy blood and hope it ignites the transformation.  But it don't.   But some kind of crossover event between species is what formed the basis of the dragon bonding of Targs.  Blood brothers with drakes.  They lost the magic song to do it with.  The song that Otherizes folks has been sung more recently, looks like.

 

The wet blanket of science, applied to the long night:

The surface temperature would plummet well below the human survival range, like, fast.   So..... let's not focus on that.

 

Not to stray too far off topic, but I suspect Rhaella’s multiple miscarriages, stillbirths, and children that died in infancy were only excuses, and were in actuality sacrificial attempts to hatch dragon eggs. 

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

As for looking alike - what does a spirit look like anyway? We have physical forms in various heights, weights, ages, and features, but spirits are invisible - at least to most - and nothing says they resemble their prior physical form.

If shadowbabies can be recognizably Stannis, I'm sure we can extend this to be the case for souls.

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Other that became a queen was most likely still in human form as the LC who was the Nights King should have great difficulty giving his seed to a body of ice. His member surely would have froze off, unless you decipher that bit as cutting off his own manhood as an offering?

Indeed that could be the offering imo. In general this tends to be a reoccurring male offer to make or strengthen gods: see also the Unsullied and their warrior goddess, or when Dany chops up a "snake" and charrs it in a brazier to make her dragons grow (and a one-eyed snake is another name for ...). 

 

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I understand that Sheepeater may have been hatched without the burning of human sacrifice, but I don’t think that we can know that for sure. I expect magic is necessary for development, because as magic waned so did their existence, growing smaller and smaller until even their eggs ceased to hatch.

No, I mean like every dragon before these three were hatched without a magical human sacrifice. The egg was laid in a cradle or hatched in a clutch. It required sacrifice now, because the eggs had already petrified.

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Just saying... 

If they are light enough not to depress snow they are light enough to be blown away by a person breathing somewhat intensely, let alone engage in a swordfight. 

I think not leaving tracks on snow is part of their ice-manipulating magic and serves to make them untraceable and even creepier in the narrative sense. 

Martin has come up with some pretty cool aliens in Tuf, it would not be unprecedented for him, but I think this particular feature at least is magic. 

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1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Just saying... 

If they are light enough not to depress snow they are light enough to be blown away by a person breathing somewhat intensely, let alone engage in a swordfight. 

I think not leaving tracks on snow is part of their ice-manipulating magic and serves to make them untraceable and even creepier in the narrative sense. 

Martin has come up with some pretty cool aliens in Tuf, it would not be unprecedented for him, but I think this particular feature at least is magic. 

Mass and density are related, but not the same thing. Something may float on water for example, but still have enough mass for me unable to displace it by breathing, especially on a solid area. I can blow 1 kg of plumes in the air, but not 1 kg of pillow.

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7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Mass and density are related, but not the same thing. Something may float on water for example, but still have enough mass for me unable to displace it by breathing, especially on a solid area. I can blow 1 kg of plumes in the air, but not 1 kg of pillow.

Also, one of the childhood events that secured spiders in the 'scary mofo' camp for me?

Picture 10 year old me, fresh off of watching Julian Sands and co. get snacked on, yeah? Now it's summer and we're using a water reservoir as a pool. It's surrounded by grass and trees, lots of bugs and yummy stuff. 

Have you ever seen spiders run on water? At your face? When the water's height is about your nose? Close enough you can count all their eyes and watch the twitching mouthpieces?

Cripes. To this day I can pick up a spider on a dust pan to put it outside, but I still do it completely chicken skinned and shivering.

Sure thing the 'Spider Others' would walk on ice. It's just too bad we have yet to see them skitter across water calm as you please. Not the wights, the Others themselves.

But then that would just give up the game, yeah?

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22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Mass and density are related, but not the same thing. Something may float on water for example, but still have enough mass for me unable to displace it by breathing, especially on a solid area. I can blow 1 kg of plumes in the air, but not 1 kg of pillow.

I'm not sure what you are mean.

They are more or less human size or shaped with feet so it comes down to the pressure applied by their feet on the snow. This should be low enough not to disturb snow at all. Think of it like that. Would a pound of sugar leave a depression in snow? It would, so an Other should weigh a fraction of that. To such a being a breeze would be like a hurricane and attempting to lift and hold anything lighter than a feather would topple it. Let alone getting in a swordfight. Because it would have the density of something like a balloon. 

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