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LadyOfCastamere

Jaime's brutal dream about Cersei

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Hey there,

I am currently reading AFFC for the first time and was very surprised about the brief description of one of Jaime's dreams (page 557 in my book). In his POV-chapter he describes how he dreamt of Cersei having sex with Moonboy and how he had killed the boy and smashed Cersei's teeth the way Pia's teeth were smashed.

Frankly, that startled me a lot. I know Jaime wasn't aware of Cersei's infidelity and so he apparently dwells in massive anger and frustration, but nevertheless, the fact that he doesn't seem repelled by his own dream speaks very creepy volumes. Perhaps I'm too enveloped in my own subjective perception, but the whole picture he paints of the dream and himself is vastly brutal and though I know Jaime to be hot-headed, I did not feel that this fully in character. He can be angry and violent, yes, but it always seemed to me that even in the worst case he would stick up for his family, especially Cersei, so that full turn, even in a conscious state, was unexpected and felt odd.

It also sort of gave me an inclination to believe he might really turn out to be the valonqar. If he can brutally smash her face, choking doesn't seem so far off the table.

What did you think about it? Just a burst of emotion or ..?

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Jamie and Cersei' are much more similar to each other in the novels than they are in the TV show. In both of their POVs they have violent fantasies of attacking other characters...Jamie constantly thinks about smashing Brienne's face in, and Cersei' imagines torture for Septa Unella and Margery. Their highborn status really has ingrained in them an ugly sense of superiority.

Stillz even though they are both inherently vicious characters, Brienne's dignity and the loss of Jamies hand humbles and tames him, whereas Cersei' mentally stews in Kings Landing and just gets worse.

Edited by Uilliam

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Jaime pushed 9 year old Bran out a tower window and you're surprised by his dream? He even says "the things I do for love", which implies he's done terrible things for Cersei before. He never even hesitated. Just saw it as necessary.

IMO the smashing teeth and smashing faces in are clues to things that he's done in the past. I don't want to spoil too much of your reading, because you're not quite done, but I suspect Jaime is complicit in Lyanna's abduction and death - not alone, but part of a group that was pretending to be Rhaegar and his men, sent out by Tywin Lannister to undermine Rhaegar's support in the Riverlands. 

Jaime is pretty ruthless. GRRM writes characters that are neither strictly good nor strictly bad - just as people are in real life. People think Jaime is on a road to redemption, but the author has very cleverly lured us into caring about him, because we're privy to some of his motivations.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jaime pushed 9 year old Bran out a tower window and you're surprised by his dream? He even says "the things I do for love", which implies he's done terrible things for Cersei before. He never even hesitated. Just saw it as necessary.

IMO the smashing teeth and smashing faces in are clues to things that he's done in the past. I don't want to spoil too much of your reading, because you're not quite done, but I suspect Jaime is complicit in Lyanna's abduction and death - not alone, but part of a group that was pretending to be Rhaegar and his men, sent out by Tywin Lannister to undermine Rhaegar's support in the Riverlands. 

Jaime is pretty ruthless. GRRM writes characters that are neither strictly good nor strictly bad - just as people are in real life. People think Jaime is on a road to redemption, but the author has very cleverly lured us into caring about him, because we're privy to some of his motivations.

Okay, that is absolutely true..I've probably become too sympathetic of Jaime. But just as you said, the horrible things he did he mainly did for Cersei, not out of pleasure and so he will cease to do so once his connection with Cersei comes to an end. That he would or even could direct that terrible energy towards her as well sort of gives away that cruelty is part of his personality and I suppose I just really don't want this to be the case. It is even more surprising in this case that he grew so fond of Brienne.
Very similar to Tyrion. Tyrion never stroke me as a person that could be pushed beyond sanity by his family, but I was heavily wrong there as well. I was less surprised that he was capable of killing Tywin, but rather that he was ready to involve Shae in his murders. IMHO she never fooled him to be anything but a whore who wants a better life, so her switching side for the coin was not a surprise, either and Tyrion knew that as well.

 

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Is Jaime attracted sexually to Brienne or does he admire her knightly qualities? Does he wish to be more like her? I see Jaime as a prime example of one of GRRM's "heart in conflict with itself" characters. When he was young he probably thought knights were supposed to be honorable, but learned by experience that they do terrible things. It's his view of knighthood, whereas Sandor Clegane outright refuses to be a hypocrite and be called a knight even though everyone else thinks of him as one. He protected Joffrey, but he did whatever was asked of him - like a good and faithful dog - a bad dog that bites on cue for his master. 

Jaime talked in a sneering tone when talking about Lord Commander Gerold Hightower. He was talking to Catelyn when he said:

Quote

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

It doesn't sound like Jaime was complimenting Gerold. Sounds like people thought Gerold embodied the qualities of a knight, but Jaime is wondering why people would think that after the manner in which Rickard and Brandon died.

Jaime modeled his knighthood after the men that trained him. Jaime squired alongside Merrett Frey to Lord Crakehall, who I suspect was the leader of the raiding party that I speculated about. He either led the undercover group or rode along side Kevan Lannister. It's already documented that Kevan used to kidnap nobles in order to collect debts owed House Lannister, so maybe he'd be too recognizable to lead the fake Rhaegar raiding party? Kevan was certainly capable of overseeing Lord Crakehall and sending him out on secret missions.

It's possible that Lord Crakehall's group was the Kingswood Brotherhood or they were just copying what the Kingswood Brotherhood did to Elia on her return trip to Kings Landing. Tywin did have motive to attack Elia. If she were killed, Rhaegar would be available to marry again, and after a period of grief Tywin could propose Cersei again.

I theorize that after Elia recovered from Rhaenys birth on Dragonstone, she travelled to Dorne to visit her family and then returned from the south on the kingsroad which leads through the Kingswood, which would explain what she was doing in that area in the first place. The Kingswood Brotherhood was hoping for treasure, and injured Gerold Hightower during the attack. King Aerys sent out a detachment to put the outlaw band down led by Ser Arthur Dayne, who led because Gerold was injured. Lord Crakehill was included in that detachment, because it's said Jaime was knighted on the field after they disbanded the KWB. About a month later he was raised up as a Kingsguard at the Harrenhal Tourney.

So back to Brienne - I think Jaime thinks a lot about all the terrible things he's done as a knight and is remorseful, but not enough to stop. And then he meets Brienne who is honorable and embodies the chivalry that the knights in fairy tales have - everything that Jaime thought the job would be, so I think he admires her which is quite different than romantic love.

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Jaime has been despised most of his adult life for slaying the king. He is the Kingslayer and he'll be the Kingslayer for the rest of his life. In Jaime's eyes, he saved the realm from an evil man, which is something knights are supposed to do, but knighthood is such a twisted, hypocritical institution. Jaime mentioned that nobody even recalled that he had changed out of his kingsguard armor and wore his golden Lannister armor. Again, in Jaime's eyes he killed the king as a Lannister not as a Kingsguard. If any other knight had killed the king, he'd be a hero. He's only despised as a Kingslayer because of a technicality. He broke his vow to protect the king, so any crime committed can be forgiven and legal as long as the knight was following the orders of his lord. This is demonstrated when Beric Dondarrion finds Sandor Clegane "innocent" for killing Micah the butcher's boy. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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On 6/1/2019 at 2:16 PM, LadyOfCastamere said:

It also sort of gave me an inclination to believe he might really turn out to be the valonqar. If he can brutally smash her face, choking doesn't seem so far off the table.

What did you think about it? Just a burst of emotion or ..?

That dream for me was a manifestation of Jaime's anger towards being cheated on. I doubt he would literally smash cersei's teeth for cheating on him. Sure, he's pushed a boy out of a tower, but he wasn't doing that out of spite. He was essentially protecting himself, cersei and his children.

PLus, he isn't the same person now as he was then. Losing his hand and spending time with brienne has given him more perspective.

As for him being the valonqar, it's possible. But I doubt he would do it out of spite.

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On 6/1/2019 at 12:16 PM, LadyOfCastamere said:

Hey there,

I am currently reading AFFC for the first time and was very surprised about the brief description of one of Jaime's dreams (page 557 in my book). In his POV-chapter he describes how he dreamt of Cersei having sex with Moonboy and how he had killed the boy and smashed Cersei's teeth the way Pia's teeth were smashed.

Frankly, that startled me a lot. I know Jaime wasn't aware of Cersei's infidelity and so he apparently dwells in massive anger and frustration, but nevertheless, the fact that he doesn't seem repelled by his own dream speaks very creepy volumes. Perhaps I'm too enveloped in my own subjective perception, but the whole picture he paints of the dream and himself is vastly brutal and though I know Jaime to be hot-headed, I did not feel that this fully in character. He can be angry and violent, yes, but it always seemed to me that even in the worst case he would stick up for his family, especially Cersei, so that full turn, even in a conscious state, was unexpected and felt odd.

It also sort of gave me an inclination to believe he might really turn out to be the valonqar. If he can brutally smash her face, choking doesn't seem so far off the table.

What did you think about it? Just a burst of emotion or ..?

Jamie is a damaged person, like most Westerosi we meet. They live in a brutal society based on violence.  Order is maintained by violence and when that order breaks down, it just begets more violence.  From lords to small folk, they're greedy and self serving by and large, and some of them are straight up sadistic.  Jamie doesn't seem paticularly evil by comparison, just pragmatically brutal.

Dream Jamie smashing in Dream Cersei's teeth for her betrayal is actually pretty tame.  Victarion murdered his wife for the same.  I do think Jamie will be the valonqar, although I think it'll take more than her betrayal for him to do it.  

In the chapters before that Cersei has been treating him awfully as well, insulting, degrading, mocking, and hitting him.   He also raped her next to her dead son, so. . . yeah. ASOIAF is just full of broken people who abuse each other.

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On 6/1/2019 at 3:16 PM, LadyOfCastamere said:

Hey there,

I am currently reading AFFC for the first time and was very surprised about the brief description of one of Jaime's dreams (page 557 in my book). In his POV-chapter he describes how he dreamt of Cersei having sex with Moonboy and how he had killed the boy and smashed Cersei's teeth the way Pia's teeth were smashed.

Frankly, that startled me a lot. I know Jaime wasn't aware of Cersei's infidelity and so he apparently dwells in massive anger and frustration, but nevertheless, the fact that he doesn't seem repelled by his own dream speaks very creepy volumes. Perhaps I'm too enveloped in my own subjective perception, but the whole picture he paints of the dream and himself is vastly brutal and though I know Jaime to be hot-headed, I did not feel that this fully in character. He can be angry and violent, yes, but it always seemed to me that even in the worst case he would stick up for his family, especially Cersei, so that full turn, even in a conscious state, was unexpected and felt odd.

It also sort of gave me an inclination to believe he might really turn out to be the valonqar. If he can brutally smash her face, choking doesn't seem so far off the table.

What did you think about it? Just a burst of emotion or ..?

Dreams are weird, though. People dream of themselves doing all kinds of strange, even violent, things that only seem strange when they wake up. So in this case, while it may be reflective of Jaime's anger and sense of betrayal toward Cersei, I don't think it means he intends, or even wants, to smash her teeth in.

As for him being the valonqar, I think he is just as likely a candidate as any other little brother, but I don't think it will come as a fit of rage from being cheated. Like with Aerys, I imagine Jaime would kill Cersei only if he felt it was for the good of the realm.

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