Arya, Jeyne and the Uncloaking

[Jeyne Jeyne]

Arya's gonna kill Ramsay (maybe, I think).

With Justin possibly not being able to leave Jeyne at the Wall with Jon either dead or barely clinging to life after being Caesared, he might take her with him to Braavos to keep her (and the chance of being Lord of WF) safe. Somehow, Jeyne hears about the HoBaW temple's suicide pool. Admittedly I can't Imagine how Jeyne would be able to obtain this information about the temple's pool or even understand the language (if I'm remembering correctly the people of Braavos speak a different language).

 Jeyne may want to peace out after she gets the tip of her nose cut off and loses all hope about moving on with her life and/or just can't continue living after what Ramsay's done to her.  Arya sees Jeyne's face on the wall at the HoBaW and wears her face for some reason and is able to relive Jeyne's memories.  
[Then came a tug and a soft rustling as the new face was pulled down over the old. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage. She heard the priest say, “Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe.” The girl took a deep shuddering breath, and realized it was true. No one was choking her, no one was hitting her. Even so, her hand was shaking as she raised it to her face.]

Arya being Arya, the same girl who put Raff the Sweetling on her list after (and amongst two other reasons) hearing him boast about raping a thirteen year old in front of her father , would want to inflict punishment on a person like Ramsay. Also when Arya is experiencing what the "Ugly Girl" went through she thinks the  girl's father should've been the one dead.

[“Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us.” “Did you kill him?” “She asked the gift for herself, not for her father.” You should have killed him.]

I Imagine at some point all is this is happening during the Uncloaking festival. Arya finally taking off her "mask" and reclaiming her identity and the uncloaking/removing of Jeyne's forced acceptance of Ramsay's cloak as Arya Stark.

Arya wearing Jeyne's face catches a ride with Justin and co back to Westeros. Ditches Massey and goes to WF to kill Ramsay. Arya kills Ramsay with his own dogs 

like in the show

but not because the dogs were hungry but because Arya would have learned how to kill a man with his own dog with the faceless men (like how Jaqen kills Weese).

 [His ugly spotted dog stood on his chest, lapping at the blood pulsing from his neck, and every so often ripping a mouthful of flesh out of the dead man’s face.

“Damnedest thing,” she heard a man say. “He had that bitch dog since she was a pup.”

Arya lifted her gaze from the dead man and his dead dog. Jaqen H’ghar was leaning up against the side of the Wailing Tower.]

Also Arya has a lot of similarities and parallels to Artemis (Goddess of the hunt, moon, the wilderness and wolves/stags) who kills a man with his own hunting dogs so a bit more "evidence" for Arya killing Ramsay.

I know there's plenty of holes in this prediction but I do think at the very least Jeyne is definitely headed towards Braavos and Arya killing Ramsay.
Also sorry  for the janky format and if it's hard read/doesn't make sense.

[thehandwipes]

I love the idea of Arya returning to Winterfell disguised as fArya.  That would be really interesting, though I'd hate to see Jeyne go out like that.

[Jeyne Jeyne]

30 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

I love the idea of Arya returning to Winterfell disguised as fArya.  That would be really interesting, though I'd hate to see Jeyne go out like that.

Same. This theory is kinda grim.

I would love if Jeyne in the future books could overcome her abuse, reunite with Sansa and live out the rest of her life peacefully but it may be too optimistic for a story like ASoIaF.

[Ygrain]

I had toyed with a similar idea, as well. Years ago, prior the show, we discussed a fitting end for Ramsay, and being torn to pieces by his own dogs, preferably starting from the crotch, was my personal favourite. It also makes sense for Arya to be the one carrying out the sentence as a retribution for Jeyne Poole, and since poor Jeyne is so broken, her looking for the gift would make sense, as well. Learning about Jeyne's plight under Arya's identity would definitely compel the real Arya to take this very personally, and since her training provides her with the right means... you're so dead, Ramsay!

Just one thing, please: put the show references into the spoiler tags, they're forbidden by gods old and new in the book part of the forum.

 

[Jeyne Jeyne]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I had toyed with a similar idea, as well. Years ago, prior the show, we discussed a fitting end for Ramsay, and being torn to pieces by his own dogs, preferably starting from the crotch, was my personal favourite. It also makes sense for Arya to be the one carrying out the sentence as a retribution for Jeyne Poole, and since poor Jeyne is so broken, her looking for the gift would make sense, as well. Learning about Jeyne's plight under Arya's identity would definitely compel the real Arya to take this very personally, and since her training provides her with the right means... you're so dead, Ramsay!

Just one thing, please: put the show references into the spoiler tags, they're forbidden by gods old and new in the book part of the forum.

 

I wonder if Arya might actually be able to make the dogs  "target" certain parts of the body too.  

There's the little detail of Weese's dog messing at his ear maybe it's because Jaqen possibly put something in there or maybe it was some other  faceless man trick but I may be reading too much into it.

[Finally someone brought a crossbow and shot the spotted dog dead while she was worrying at one of Weese’s ears.]

Although if I'm remembering correctly the dog attacked Weese's throat first not his ear ( my own little "theory" fell apart so quickly).

Thank you for telling me about the show spoiler thing!! I'm new to posting and just skimmed the help thread.

[sweetsunray]

I hope not, for a few reasons:

1 - I don't expect Arya to get to WF before the end of tWoW, so that would mean an entire book length of more Ramsay terror. The sooner he dies, the better imo.

2 - Jeyne is broken, but I'd rather have George write her in a manner that she survives and overcomes being defined by what that sicko did to her

3- The Pink Letter at the end of aDwD gives the impression that Ramsay won, Stannis is dead and all the people fighting for Ned's girl was a waste, and on top of that you have Jon's caesaring. That's already the bleakest impression you can end the book with. To move the story forward from this point, some of this was a lie, and the sacrifice of the old men fighting actually changed the balance. To return to the same situation as we started with in aDwD, but with even worse numbers for the anti-Bolton side is just moving backward, and in a way that is unrecoverable. The forces are already down to green boys and old men with these Mountain Clans, Umbers, Karstarks, Bear Island, remnant of Cerwyn and WF men (who survived the end of aCoK) and then you have Manderly's knights in aDwD. If they're gone, and the Boltons are still in power as they are during aDwD, with Freys, Dustins, etc then that becomes an insurmountable issue that imo no Vale army can resolve, let alone wildlings.

4- We know that tWoW includes at least one chapter that dates back before the writing of the PL, before the Battle at the Ice Lakes, with a POV within the Stannis camp. And it looks like George will give us more POV chapters to show us what goes down in the Wolfswood, at the lakes, at WF all leading up to the PL. Why would George spend several chapters on confirming the PL's outcome in tWoW? The sole reason that makes sense when he has only a third of the story to go is because the picture that the PL gives the reader is a false one, and he can only show us that by taking us through those battles. Along with all the book evidence for it, this is the main reason why I believe Cantuse's Nigth Lamp Theory: Stannis wins the battle of Ice, lures 2000 Freys onto the weakened ice and they're dead, but then pretends to be dead to send his own men into WF under disguise and conquer it from the inside, and/or lures forces away to the Dreadfort.

5- The HotU visions of Dany include a vision of Stannis as one of the lies she has to slay. She may not battle him directly, but I think he's still around by the time she makes it to Westeros, which is the end of tWoW according to George. Or rather, her arrival will be the final nail in his coffin of support, especially if Aegon has already been hailed and welcomed by the people south of the Neck. Stannis is the last trueborn Baratheon of the Baratheon dynasty (and Shyreen, but she'll be dead by then). So, Aegon conquering SE, KL and the IT and Dany bringing a legitimized Edric Storm along from Essos and taking Dragonstone, is the politiccal end for Stannis. And if Stannis can make it that far in the series, then house Bolton is no more way before that.

6 - Now, I do think Ramsay's fate is to end up being eaten by his girls, but way way earlier in the story, and I suspect Mance is part of that plot. We were shown in Jon's chapters what a swordsman Mance truly is. We are told by Roose what a poor swordsman Ramsay is. Theon remembers being trained on swordsmanship on the spiral stairs of the castle of WF. And Mance really wanted to know the whereabouts of the crypts. Theon's beliefs about Ramsay's fiercesomeness are distorted (understandably). In his mind, Ramsay can search and follow and find them all, despite there being a blizzard where you can't see a few meters ahead of you. He was utterly scared of being done for traipsing around WF with the hot water and Mance's spearwives to rescue Jane. But you could barely see anyone in the blizzard. Theon's mentality in his escape-with-Jeyne chapter is one where the reader thinks everyone will find out within minutes what is happening and Ramsay chasing them instantly. But that's a false image. The guards who shot an arrow on one of the spearwives, more than likely don't even know who the hell jumped off the walls and escaped. The two spearwives with Theon and Jeyne are dead already, so they don't live to tell tales. Meanwhile you also have two armies leaving through two gates (Manderlys and Freys). In all that disorderliness and a blizzard on top, the remaining spearwives and Mance had enough time to set-up their own escape plan, including Squirrel who was heading for the godswood (squirrels tend to successfully hide in trees). The fact that Theon and Jeyne make it to Stannis's camp without Ramsay on their heels further proves that Jeyne's disappearance likely wasn't even noticed hours later. In all that time, Mance wasn't going to keep singing songs in WF's hall. But he had blood sausages on hand to lay a false trail for Ramsay's girls to follow, and thus to misdirect Ramsay into a location where he could end up trapped with his dogs. His fellow hunter men have been culled already on top of it. So, imo Ramsay follows his girls who follow the blood sausage trail into the crypts, never to come out alive.

[TheThreeEyedCow]

I like the theory. I think it's a plausible one.

One aspect that has stuck in my mind was a small comment made by the narrator during one of Theon's chapters. It was something to do with how Ramsey's 'bitches' were quite fond of Theon. He'd slept among them. And Theon gave one of the dogs his food as it was too difficult for him to chew. Dogs don't forget where food comes from...  

So I'm left with this lingering image of Ramsey attempting to set his girls on Theon and them simply not attacking him. Perhaps even turning on their master.

But, as I say. I think your theory is plausible. Arya has the means and the motive to act. Dareon 'the deserter' angered her. So we know that despite never being at the wall or in contact with Jon since WF, events there are close to her heart. So if she somehow learns of Jon's fate, that could be the motivator she needs to head to the North, and not the RL - which is where I expect her to go. 

[thehandwipes]

Arya returning to WF disguised as the girl pretending to be her, to avenge the abuse she suffered in Arya's name, certainly seems like something George would write.  Though I don't think it fits narratively.  Roose and Ramsay are done, stick a fork in them.  And I'm not convinced the Massey expedition makes it any further than the chaos at the Wall.

But I think if GRRM saw this theory, he'd wish he was the one who thought of it.

[Jeyne Jeyne]

7 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I hope not, for a few reasons:

1 - I don't expect Arya to get to WF before the end of tWoW, so that would mean an entire book length of more Ramsay terror. The sooner he dies, the better imo.

2 - Jeyne is broken, but I'd rather have George write her in a manner that she survives and overcomes being defined by what that sicko did to her

3- The Pink Letter at the end of aDwD gives the impression that Ramsay won, Stannis is dead and all the people fighting for Ned's girl was a waste, and on top of that you have Jon's caesaring. That's already the bleakest impression you can end the book with. To move the story forward from this point, some of this was a lie, and the sacrifice of the old men fighting actually changed the balance. To return to the same situation as we started with in aDwD, but with even worse numbers for the anti-Bolton side is just moving backward, and in a way that is unrecoverable. The forces are already down to green boys and old men with these Mountain Clans, Umbers, Karstarks, Bear Island, remnant of Cerwyn and WF men (who survived the end of aCoK) and then you have Manderly's knights in aDwD. If they're gone, and the Boltons are still in power as they are during aDwD, with Freys, Dustins, etc then that becomes an insurmountable issue that imo no Vale army can resolve, let alone wildlings.

4- We know that tWoW includes at least one chapter that dates back before the writing of the PL, before the Battle at the Ice Lakes, with a POV within the Stannis camp. And it looks like George will give us more POV chapters to show us what goes down in the Wolfswood, at the lakes, at WF all leading up to the PL. Why would George spend several chapters on confirming the PL's outcome in tWoW? The sole reason that makes sense when he has only a third of the story to go is because the picture that the PL gives the reader is a false one, and he can only show us that by taking us through those battles. Along with all the book evidence for it, this is the main reason why I believe Cantuse's Nigth Lamp Theory: Stannis wins the battle of Ice, lures 2000 Freys onto the weakened ice and they're dead, but then pretends to be dead to send his own men into WF under disguise and conquer it from the inside, and/or lures forces away to the Dreadfort.

5- The HotU visions of Dany include a vision of Stannis as one of the lies she has to slay. She may not battle him directly, but I think he's still around by the time she makes it to Westeros, which is the end of tWoW according to George. Or rather, her arrival will be the final nail in his coffin of support, especially if Aegon has already been hailed and welcomed by the people south of the Neck. Stannis is the last trueborn Baratheon of the Baratheon dynasty (and Shyreen, but she'll be dead by then). So, Aegon conquering SE, KL and the IT and Dany bringing a legitimized Edric Storm along from Essos and taking Dragonstone, is the politiccal end for Stannis. And if Stannis can make it that far in the series, then house Bolton is no more way before that.

6 - Now, I do think Ramsay's fate is to end up being eaten by his girls, but way way earlier in the story, and I suspect Mance is part of that plot. We were shown in Jon's chapters what a swordsman Mance truly is. We are told by Roose what a poor swordsman Ramsay is. Theon remembers being trained on swordsmanship on the spiral stairs of the castle of WF. And Mance really wanted to know the whereabouts of the crypts. Theon's beliefs about Ramsay's fiercesomeness are distorted (understandably). In his mind, Ramsay can search and follow and find them all, despite there being a blizzard where you can't see a few meters ahead of you. He was utterly scared of being done for traipsing around WF with the hot water and Mance's spearwives to rescue Jane. But you could barely see anyone in the blizzard. Theon's mentality in his escape-with-Jeyne chapter is one where the reader thinks everyone will find out within minutes what is happening and Ramsay chasing them instantly. But that's a false image. The guards who shot an arrow on one of the spearwives, more than likely don't even know who the hell jumped off the walls and escaped. The two spearwives with Theon and Jeyne are dead already, so they don't live to tell tales. Meanwhile you also have two armies leaving through two gates (Manderlys and Freys). In all that disorderliness and a blizzard on top, the remaining spearwives and Mance had enough time to set-up their own escape plan, including Squirrel who was heading for the godswood (squirrels tend to successfully hide in trees). The fact that Theon and Jeyne make it to Stannis's camp without Ramsay on their heels further proves that Jeyne's disappearance likely wasn't even noticed hours later. In all that time, Mance wasn't going to keep singing songs in WF's hall. But he had blood sausages on hand to lay a false trail for Ramsay's girls to follow, and thus to misdirect Ramsay into a location where he could end up trapped with his dogs. His fellow hunter men have been culled already on top of it. So, imo Ramsay follows his girls who follow the blood sausage trail into the crypts, never to come out alive.

I'm a little eeh about the Stannis-surprise-ice-attack. It seems, imo a teensy bit too chance based for someone like Stannis to take a possible risk on but small details that seem so out of place or strangely focused on usually lend to having significance later on. I think in regards to the Bolton's defeat not only would the uniting north families come into play/ be one of the factors however Roose may have some counter to "push back" but I think the one who would actually be a complete surprise to Roose and Ramsay is Lady Dustin. She is someone they wouldn't have suspected a betrayal from since her hatred of the Starks is seemingly stronger than her hatred towards the one responsible for her beloved nephew's death. 

[She was fond of my late son and suspects you of having some part in his demise.]
[Lady Barbrey is a woman who knows how to nurse a grievance.] 

Imo the the northern houses and Lady Dustin would be the end of Roose but Arya will kill Ramsay. Arya is too connected to the Boltons and North without even being in Westeros. 

 [I would sooner my men die fighting for Ned’s little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks.]

What would be the point of her witnessing Jaqen murdering Weese with his own loyal dog? So Mance could kill Ramsay with some sausages? What is the point of Arya reliving the horrible abuse of one of the faces she wears? For us the readers to know how Arya wants to kill sadistic people? We already know that about her, it's already been an established character trait since before her list. Jeyne has no other significance besides being force to impersonate Arya, once Arya reclaims her identity, what purpose does Jeyne serve? I guess the other reason she could still be significant in the story is telling Sansa how much of a monster Petyr is but Sansa already has seen what Little Finger is capable of. 

Jeyne is a character who fixates about beauty. She thinks she was pretty but not as beautiful as Sansa, she gets upset about having similar enough features to Arya because Arya had a horsey face, and recalls how beautiful Theon was. How can Jeyne be happy if the tip of her nose is removed? If the possibility of Shireen's cruel death exists why not Jeyne's? Both girls are completely innocent and undeserving of such sad endings but so were the mother and child captured by Clegane and co, so was the Mad Huntsman's wife and so many more minor non POV characters.

But like you pointed out it would take Arya till possibly the ending chapters of Winds to reach WF.  Also that was a fun theory to read! I've seen that theory of Dany legitimizing Edric, getting rid of Stannis's claim and it makes so much sense!!  There's so many possibilities for TWOW. I tend to focus on favorite characters, ignoring that other characters exist and are also connected to certain plots. 

Sorry for all the run on sentences and my horrible grammar mistakes, hopefully it's all still readable. 

[Jeyne Jeyne]

3 hours ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

I like the theory. I think it's a plausible one.

One aspect that has stuck in my mind was a small comment made by the narrator during one of Theon's chapters. It was something to do with how Ramsey's 'bitches' were quite fond of Theon. He'd slept among them. And Theon gave one of the dogs his food as it was too difficult for him to chew. Dogs don't forget where food comes from...  

So I'm left with this lingering image of Ramsey attempting to set his girls on Theon and them simply not attacking him. Perhaps even turning on their master.

But, as I say. I think your theory is plausible. Arya has the means and the motive to act. Dareon 'the deserter' angered her. So we know that despite never being at the wall or in contact with Jon since WF, events there are close to her heart. So if she somehow learns of Jon's fate, that could be the motivator she needs to head to the North, and not the RL - which is where I expect her to go. 

Like Mance I never considered Theon but both make sense and both have the means and motive too! Lady Dustin also has a motive to want Ramsay dead.  With Lady Dustin empathizing and defending Theon they could team up and take out Ramsay together. Lady Dustin motivated by the murder of her nephew and Theon for the torture and abuse he had to endure.

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

I'm a little eeh about the Stannis-surprise-ice-attack. It seems, imo a teensy bit too chance based for someone like Stannis to take a possible risk on but small details that seem so out of place or strangely focused on usually lend to having significance later on. I think in regards to the Bolton's defeat not only would the uniting north families come into play/ be one of the factors however Roose may have some counter to "push back" but I think the one who would actually be a complete surprise to Roose and Ramsay is Lady Dustin. She is someone they wouldn't have suspected a betrayal from since her hatred of the Starks is seemingly stronger than her hatred towards the one responsible for her beloved nephew's death. 

Have you read Cantuse's Night Lamp theory? If so, then Stannis did not just set up camp at these lakes by "chance". The devil is in the details with George.

Sure, Lady Dustin may come into play. If she does, will she wait almost an entire book to do so? I doubt it.

7 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

Imo the the northern houses and Lady Dustin would be the end of Roose but Arya will kill Ramsay. Arya is too connected to the Boltons and North without even being in Westeros. 

Actually, she is already doing so by proxy. She did not "save her mother" personally either. She does not help take down Frey men personally. She does not directly inform the Iron Bank about Hardhome. It is done by proxy. Just that all these men battle for Ned's Little Girl and Mance is there to save her from Ramsay already serves Arya's role in it, whether she is there or not. George rarely has Arya hit big secondary characters herself. But even her most minor actions have a ripple effect. That is because she's a Valkyrie type in the story. Take the Weasel soup at Harrenhal. She didn't make the soup; she didn't throw it at anyone; she didn't even kill anyone. Nevertheless, the skirmish and power exchange from Amory Lorch to Roose Bolton is dedicated to her and all she did was whisper Jaquen's name (a fake name no less) and help carry the soup.

So, no, Arya does not need to do this personally at all. It is already set in motion in her name anyway.

18 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

What would be the point of her witnessing Jaqen murdering Weese with his own loyal dog? So Mance could kill Ramsay with some sausages? What is the point of Arya reliving the horrible abuse of one of the faces she wears? For us the readers to know how Arya wants to kill sadistic people? We already know that about her, it's already been an established character trait since before her list. Jeyne has no other significance besides being force to impersonate Arya, once Arya reclaims her identity, what purpose does Jeyne serve? I guess the other reason she could still be significant in the story is telling Sansa how much of a monster Petyr is but Sansa already has seen what Little Finger is capable of. 

The point is that we the readers learn about basilisk. George plants and teaches us about certain things in certain arcs only to end up using it in another. We learn about the strangler in Cressen's prologue, only to have it appear a book later in Tyrion's POV when Joffrey dies.

Arya reliving the abuse tells us that wearing those faces comes with a price and how that is part of the magic. And it's a parallel to Bran witnessing the memory of the man who got executed before a heart tree (as souls go into trees). It also reveals that the Ugly Girl became a face without coming to drink from the pool. Her last memory is one of being beaten to death by her father.

So that we know that Arya condemns injustice and sadism regardless who the victim is. Her empathy and need for justice extends beyond being abused herself, beyond her family being murdered, beyond her class, beyond her countrymen. She is the most empathic character in the books without any discrimination. And George has to remind us of this, time and time again. Plenty of people here believe her to be a psychopath, because she cares not one jot for an abusive person. If we only had her empathy to smallfolk and unknowns of the first book to refer to, then they would have an argument that she closed that off. Arya never does.

Jeyne served her proxy-purpose for getting men to fight, for men and women to infiltrate the castle and save her, for Theon to return from being Reeked. And she should have her own purpose after this, I very much hope, instead of killing her to make the girl she impersonated finish the job that others are already doing.

30 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

Jeyne is a character who fixates about beauty. She thinks she was pretty but not as beautiful as Sansa, she gets upset about having similar enough features to Arya because Arya had a horsey face, and recalls how beautiful Theon was. How can Jeyne be happy if the tip of her nose is removed? If the possibility of Shireen's cruel death exists why not Jeyne's? Both girls are completely innocent and undeserving of such sad endings but so were the mother and child captured by Clegane and co, so was the Mad Huntsman's wife and so many more minor non POV characters.

Jeyne was a child and no less shallow than Sansa was initially, but she also saw something in a man like Dondarrion. To think she could not be happy if she lost only the tip of her nose is beyond sad.

Yes, many innocent and undeserving characters die. Not that many do by suicide and for a) a shallow beauty reason b) because they were raped. George has a lot of horrific things happen, features rape regularly, but he always does it with the greatest care and respect to the topic. Having her being saved, then escape the Wall and whatever mayhem awaits her there and then sail to Braavos and commit suicide because of this is imo a cheap way of handling the subject. 

[Jeyne Jeyne]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Have you read Cantuse's Night Lamp theory? If so, then Stannis did not just set up camp at these lakes by "chance". The devil is in the details with George.

Sure, Lady Dustin may come into play. If she does, will she wait almost an entire book to do so? I doubt it.

Actually, she is already doing so by proxy. She did not "save her mother" personally either. She does not help take down Frey men personally. She does not directly inform the Iron Bank about Hardhome. It is done by proxy. Just that all these men battle for Ned's Little Girl and Mance is there to save her from Ramsay already serves Arya's role in it, whether she is there or not. George rarely has Arya hit big secondary characters herself. But even her most minor actions have a ripple effect. That is because she's a Valkyrie type in the story. Take the Weasel soup at Harrenhal. She didn't make the soup; she didn't throw it at anyone; she didn't even kill anyone. Nevertheless, the skirmish and power exchange from Amory Lorch to Roose Bolton is dedicated to her and all she did was whisper Jaquen's name (a fake name no less) and help carry the soup.

So, no, Arya does not need to do this personally at all. It is already set in motion in her name anyway.

The point is that we the readers learn about basilisk. George plants and teaches us about certain things in certain arcs only to end up using it in another. We learn about the strangler in Cressen's prologue, only to have it appear a book later in Tyrion's POV when Joffrey dies.

Arya reliving the abuse tells us that wearing those faces comes with a price and how that is part of the magic. And it's a parallel to Bran witnessing the memory of the man who got executed before a heart tree (as souls go into trees). It also reveals that the Ugly Girl became a face without coming to drink from the pool. Her last memory is one of being beaten to death by her father.

So that we know that Arya condemns injustice and sadism regardless who the victim is. Her empathy and need for justice extends beyond being abused herself, beyond her family being murdered, beyond her class, beyond her countrymen. She is the most empathic character in the books without any discrimination. And George has to remind us of this, time and time again. Plenty of people here believe her to be a psychopath, because she cares not one jot for an abusive person. If we only had her empathy to smallfolk and unknowns of the first book to refer to, then they would have an argument that she closed that off. Arya never does.

Jeyne served her proxy-purpose for getting men to fight, for men and women to infiltrate the castle and save her, for Theon to return from being Reeked. And she should have her own purpose after this, I very much hope, instead of killing her to make the girl she impersonated finish the job that others are already doing.

Jeyne was a child and no less shallow than Sansa was initially, but she also saw something in a man like Dondarrion. To think she could not be happy if she lost only the tip of her nose is beyond sad.

Yes, many innocent and undeserving characters die. Not that many do by suicide and for a) a shallow beauty reason b) because they were raped. George has a lot of horrific things happen, features rape regularly, but he always does it with the greatest care and respect to the topic. Having her being saved, then escape the Wall and whatever mayhem awaits her there and then sail to Braavos and commit suicide because of this is imo a cheap way of handling the subject. 

I googled the theory as soon as I finished reading your summary of it! It seems too interesting a theory to pass up reading!

And I'm flip flopping so much on this now! Mance killing Ramsay seems a bit too impersonal. Lady Dustin and Theon have stronger and deeply personal motives to want Ramsay brutally torn apart by dogs.

I think I phrased that weirdly. I meant Arya not physically being there but still having such an effect makes her too  involved for her not to show up and in person have an even bigger impact. Like her warging Nymeria and pulling Catelyn out, Catelyn becoming Lady Stoneheart/Mother Merciless, Arya having names like Cat and Mercy, and Arya learning mercy from Sandor, it all is leading to a reunion. Possibly a reunion of Arya giving the gift of mercy to Mother Merciless.
That's the thought process I have for connecting all these pieces we have so far. Like with how Arya warges into Nymeria, the Frey's lie of Robb's men turning into wolves at the wedding, Nymeria having a large wolf pack unafraid of men in the River Lands, meat becoming scarcer, meat is meat even if it's from humans,men are prey to the wolves and a possible Frey wedding. It's all there it just needs to be connected. There's also Lady Stoneheart in the River Lands and the Brotherhood without Banners hanging Lannisters and Freys. All connected to Arya who is all the way in Braavos.

The Ugly Girl came to them and asked for the gift for herself. How would she ask for the gift of death if her father killed her? The hideous crunching noise is from her father caving in her cheekbone beating her not from her death.  The memories and nightmares are bits and pieces from the face's owner. That wasn't the Ugly Girl's last memory it was one single memory.

[“Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us.” “Did you kill him?” “She asked the gift for herself, not for her father.” You should have killed him.]

I've never understood why people thought Arya was a psychopath, she only kills people who are immediate threats to her life and actual monsters like Clegane and co and like you pointed out she's incredibly empathetic towards others. She's shown kindness and protectiveness of others more than she's actually killed.

Good point about other characters already set up to finish what they started! The northmen already have their plans in motion but they still need to get Rickon.

It's a sad book, there's Catelyn who only wanted to protect her family and now she's Lady Stoneheart hanging children for just being associated with the Freys and Lannisters, Tysha, the Mad Huntsman's wife and sister, the Ugly Girl, Weasel, the woman and her son and plenty of others.
Sansa still has people helping her, she still has hope and lemon cakes and friends. Jeyne Poole only has Theon who might be getting beheaded. No one is protecting Jeyne, they're protecting Arya. And if I'm recalling correctly her family might even be dead, I think her father was already murdered but it's been a while since I've read the earlier books. 

¿Also GRRM handling rape in a respectful way? Dany falls in love with the man who raped her. George writes detaily about Dany's thirteen year old body in such a gross way. He also does the same for Sansa. The man's books are a good read but he's still has flaws with his writing, especially when it comes to his perverted detailed descriptions of female children's bodies.

[sweetsunray]

37 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

¿Also GRRM handling rape in a respectful way? Dany falls in love with the man who raped her. George writes detaily about Dany's thirteen year old body in such a gross way. He also does the same for Sansa. The man's books are a good read but he's still has flaws with his writing, especially when it comes to his perverted detailed descriptions of female children's bodies.

We disagree on Drogo raping Dany. That was a show thing. Though I get the "age" thing. But then again, I remember my favourite teen book that I read at the age of 11-12, where the protagonist is a 14-year old who saves a man in his early 20s from getting his head chopped off (he saved her from rape and killed the cow drivers who tried to rape her, for which he ends up convicted). She saves him by offering herself as bride, which in the middle ages was how convicted men could be saved, and they both get banished, and she has her wedding night that night in the fields and wild. There's no way, I would in the RW condone a man of 22-23 sleeping with a 14-year old, but I've got no issues with it in that book, or with Drogo (despite the fact I don't particularly like Drogo as a human being for his slaving ways).

ETA: Anyway, I'm not saying that everything of Cantuse's theories will be as he proposes it will be, not in detail... but reading how he puts the pieces together for the Night Lamp Theory basics does help in how you can read George's writing, and how he gives clues. It's similar with Radio Westeros's proposal on what Lady Stoneheart and the BwB will do most likely in the Riverlands.

[Jeyne Jeyne]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

We disagree on Drogo raping Dany. That was a show thing. Though I get the "age" thing. But then again, I remember my favourite teen book that I read at the age of 11-12, where the protagonist is a 14-year old who saves a man in his early 20s from getting his head chopped off (he saved her from rape and killed the cow drivers who tried to rape her, for which he ends up convicted). She saves him by offering herself as bride, which in the middle ages was how convicted men could be saved, and they both get banished, and she has her wedding night that night in the fields and wild. There's no way, I would in the RW condone a man of 22-23 sleeping with a 14-year old, but I've got no issues with it in that book, or with Drogo (despite the fact I don't particularly like Drogo as a human being for his slaving ways).

From what I remember a thirteen year old Dany initially said no and Drogo kept touching her until he got the response from Dany to continue which read to me like a forced consent but this is a fantasy book so fantasy world rules apply. 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

From what I remember a thirteen year old Dany initially said no and Drogo kept touching her until he got the response from Dany to continue which read to me like a forced consent but this is a fantasy book so fantasy world rules apply. 

She starts to cry. he says no and rubs her tear away. Dany tries to converse with him, asking questions, and Drogo says "no" several times. They take their time in each other's company before they even undress. And when he draws her to his lap he asks her "no?" and she replies, "yes". I propose you read it again.

[Jeyne Jeyne]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

She starts to cry. he says no and rubs her tear away. Dany tries to converse with him, asking questions, and Drogo says "no" several times. They take their time in each other's company before they even undress. And when he draws her to his lap he asks her "no?" and she replies, "yes". I propose you read it again.

I remember reading that when I was seventeen it must have left a bad impression :/ .
But back to Jeyne, it's not like I think she is vain/shallow or that her nose getting the chop would be the sole reason for her not wanting to live anymore, it's a possible supporting reason. Her having a facial scar would be the final straw for her. Her father is dead, she's been abused in all gruesome ways possible and with only the pretense of her being someone else protecting her for now and then having the tip of her nose cut off may be what makes her lose hope in ever living a life she wanted. But there's the holes I've pointed out already with this theory of mine. How would she learn of the temple's pool? How could the subject be brought up organically? Would someone conveniently speaking the common language mention it in passing? Lots of missing pieces!

Read the Lamp theory and I'm coming around on the Stannis ice lake booby trap theory. It has pieces that could easily be connected and with that exchange between Theon and Stannis it just seems even more likely.
[You have no high ground here, no walls to hide beyond, no natural defenses.”

“Yet.”]
But I'm not too sure about Stannis whipping out LightBringer for the absolute most extra laser-light-show. I thought the theory was building up to just using the false light trick to lure the Frey army onto the ice and that's reasonable and clever but the LightBringer blinding the army seemed out of place with the rest of the theory. How would Stannis avoid blinding people from his army? Was he suppose to stand there and just hold up the sword while closing his eyes? Admittedly I skimmed the rest after reaching the LightBringer charging part. I thought the burning of RattleShirt made the sword light-show possible because people were tricked into believing RS was Mance.

[Jeyne Jeyne]

8 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

Arya returning to WF disguised as the girl pretending to be her, to avenge the abuse she suffered in Arya's name, certainly seems like something George would write.  Though I don't think it fits narratively.  Roose and Ramsay are done, stick a fork in them.  And I'm not convinced the Massey expedition makes it any further than the chaos at the Wall.

But I think if GRRM saw this theory, he'd wish he was the one who thought of it.

Why do you think Massey won't be able to get out of the Wall situation? I also think Massey is bound for failure but I'm leaning more towards him not be able to acquire the sellswords Stannis tasked him with.  

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

Why do you think Massey won't be able to get out of the Wall situation? I also think Massey is bound for failure but I'm leaning more towards him not be able to acquire the sellswords Stannis tasked him with.  

Well, there is bound to be fighting between NW brothers, free folk, Selyse's knights, throw in a Karstark, and for all we know the Wall comes down at Castle Black.

[thehandwipes]

44 minutes ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

Why do you think Massey won't be able to get out of the Wall situation? I also think Massey is bound for failure but I'm leaning more towards him not be able to acquire the sellswords Stannis tasked him with.  

I'm convinced the Ides of Marsh will effectively destroy the NW.  In addition to the groups sweetsunray just mentioned I'd add Davos and the survivors of Hardhome.

Narratively, I think Massey's group serves one, possibly two, purposes.  First it brings Jeyne to the Wall.  I don't think Jon stays dead for long, three days seems natural.  Knowing Jeyne is not Arya, he must at that point conclude she is dead.  This, combined with his NW brothers stabbing him to death, convinces him to head north.  Lured by Bran, Ghost, looking for Benjen, something, he goes north of the Wall.

The second is that it might bring Asha to the Wall.  I know she's supposed to stay with Stannis but I'm not convinced.  That puts three POV's plus Jon at the Wall.  That means events at the Wall are going to be huge deal very early in TWOW.  Massey is unlikely to able to walk away from that and I really don't see that sellsword story going anywhere.  He'll almost certainly decide its more important to protect the Queen and Shireen.

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, Jeyne Jeyne said:

How would she learn of the temple's pool? How could the subject be brought up organically? Would someone conveniently speaking the common language mention it in passing?

Some kindly soul, seeing how depressed and damaged she is, might talk to her and tell her about this ultimate solution for her pains. Or, Arya herself might bump into her, just like she did with Samwell, and though Arya may not be able to recognize her after her ordeal, she might recognize Arya. Or, Arya might hear from someone about a girl from Westeros who had escaped untold horrors in the North, and investigate.

Come to think of it: Jeyne definitely has a role to play - she must reveal that this was all LF's doing, because while Ramsay did the deed, LF was the one who had Jeyne broken in that brothel of his and concocted the plan. Whoever she confesses to, the information must then reach Sansa, because she was Jeyne's friend and because vengeance on LF should be the crown of her arc. And since the two sisters have a lot to talk through, passing this information through Arya would make sense.

Oh, one thing about Ramsay: if Stannis wins, with his penchant for harsh justice, I can totally see him having Ramsay stripped naked and chased through the woods with his own dogs, until they finally hunt him down and do to him what he deserves. That would be cute, as well.