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Black Crow

Heresy 223 and where we go from here

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Posted (edited)

Welcome to Heresy 223, the very long running thread which takes a slightly sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire, and at the same time a much wider look at the nature of the conflict - and its actors. At this point in time we still find ourselves dealing with the fallout from the ending of the Mummers' version. Clearly, once it had outrun GRRM's published text adaptation gave way to making it up as it went along, but yet on the other hand certain outcomes were revealed unto the Mummers to allow them to close it. We're not here to discuss those [incomplete] outcomes, but yet on the other hand they are out there and they allow us not just a degree of vindication, but justify our pursuit of themes far beyond an obsession with the "parvenu Targaryens" * 

If you're new to the thread, welcome. Sometimes the ideas raised here can be regarded as crackpot but the thread provides a forum to raise them in a civilised manner. We've discussed a lot in our time so these ideas may not come as a complete surprise. All that I'll warn is that primarily we look at Westeros, the Starks and at the magical otherlands beyond the Wall. 

:commie:

 

*currently by favourite expression

Edited by Black Crow

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9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s not really my point though.  I’m not arguing that Harrenhal had anything to do with the birth of the prince that was promised. But I don’t think that Rhaegar believed that his job was ended by simply conceiving the lad.  Instead, we have Aemon’s notion that the birth of dragons were proof that Dany was the prince(ess) that was promised.  Aemon also believed that he had to help prepare Dany for her role.  We also have the notion that the prince that was promised is only one of the three heads of the dragon.

So while Rhaegar may have believed that either he or his child fit the role of the prince that was promised, Rhaegar was also of the belief that there were two others needed to be one of the three “heads of the dragon”.  Rhaegar also probably believed that he also had to actually hatch one or more dragons to fulfill the prophecy.

I further think that the prince that was promised isn’t merely a dragon rider.  After all, the Targaryens (or maesters) had been trying to translate the prophecy for over a thousand years.  In that time frame we’ve had dragon riders come and go, but apparently not the prince that was promised.

So if we add one other clue, that the riddle of the prince that was promised was the sphinx, this perhaps alludes to the idea of a Valyrian sphinx.  A dragon with the head of a human.  

Adding it all up, I think Rhaegar’s ultimate goal was not only to give birth to the prince that was promised, or even to hatch a dragon, but in addition was to transfer the consciousness of the prince that was promised into the dragon.  Making a dragon with the consciousness of a Targaryen.  Perhaps the idea that the dragon has three heads means that three consciousnesses are needed to be transferred into the dragon to fully “wake the dragon”.  

So Rhaegar needed additional sources of king’s blood.  Either to be used as sacrifices to help hatch the dragons, or as one of the three necessary consciousnesses needed to be transferred into said dragon.

And that’s what I think Rhaegar may have been doing at Harrenhal.  He was trying to create a royal bastard (or bastards), a child (or children)with a certain mixture of king’s blood to help fulfill the true meaning of the prophecy.  

This reads like a cooking recipe where you just buy the instant dragon body at the discounter after you have found all the other ingredients. 

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Posted (edited)

I've always thought dragons sometimes had human conciousness, similar to the Warg bond.  This is the riddle of the sphynx, a dragon with a human 'head' being a mind or soul. 

Viserys or Mirri Maz Duur ended up in Viserion.

Drago ended up in Drogan.

Like the Warg bond, the transfer makes the person think like a dragon- they don't entirely retain their own memories and motivations, or at least they are becoming secondary to what the dragon wants. 

The first dragon was made from an ancestor of the Dragon Lords, hence the bond to their blood and importance of keeping it pure.  They are the blood of the dragon in a literal sense. 

Summerhall involved the intentional willing sacrifice of Aegon and his son, and it worked and hatched at least one dragon.   Someone present betrayed Aegon and immediately killed the baby dragon and witnesses. 

Edited by Brad Stark

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53 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I've always thought dragons sometimes had human conciousness, similar to the Warg bond.  This is the riddle of the sphynx, a dragon with a human 'head' being a mind or soul. 

Or is it the other way around and that the dragon and the direwolf take over their human hosts? Danaerys certainly seems to have been guided and Jon Snow's beserker rages can plausibly be interpreted as his being taken over by Ghost.

Conversely of course, the decline of the Targaryens once they'd lost their dragons can be likened to the decline of the Mummers' version once they no longer had GRRM's text to guide them

:D

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If our subject is dragons then I would love to talk about Winged Snake of Winterfell. I believe Winged Snake is directly tied to Azor Ahai prophecy and HotU visions, as Melisandre says AA will wake a dragon from stone and HotU visions show a stone beast with shadow fire. I believe someone/something woke the Stone Beast with Shadow Fire yet we never learn the true cause, I suspect Rickon is the reason for dragon to wake? But I need a reread with before-after of Winged Snake chapter. 

Another subject I am currently interested in is Order of the Green Hand / Red Hand of Rhllor - we know Red Hand found in Volantis specifically, and we learn Wyman Manderly is member of Green Hand. I suspect Olenna Redwyne is a potential member but how relevant they will be after coin revelation? Are these two groups enemies? Are there any members of Blue Hand? 

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32 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

If our subject is dragons then I would love to talk about Winged Snake of Winterfell. I believe Winged Snake is directly tied to Azor Ahai prophecy and HotU visions, as Melisandre says AA will wake a dragon from stone and HotU visions show a stone beast with shadow fire. I believe someone/something woke the Stone Beast with Shadow Fire yet we never learn the true cause, I suspect Rickon is the reason for dragon to wake? 

GRRM once remarked that as a character Mel is seriously misunderstood. He didn't really expand on that but I'm rather of a mind that what he meant was that people read too much into her character and elevate the importance of what she says and does. This I think was a major point of her one and only POV chapter, exploring her motives and exposing her chicanery.

In short, while the Rhlloristas might be playing their part in aspects of this story its a mistake to read it in her terms of Rhllor [and his servant Azor Ahai] against the Great Other. 

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM once remarked that as a character Mel is seriously misunderstood. He didn't really expand on that but I'm rather of a mind that what he meant was that people read too much into her character and elevate the importance of what she says and does. This I think was a major point of her one and only POV chapter, exploring her motives and exposing her chicanery.

In short, while the Rhlloristas might be playing their part in aspects of this story its a mistake to read it in her terms of Rhllor [and his servant Azor Ahai] against the Great Other. 

Interesting take! I took his inclusion of her chapter to add some clarity to her motives. She honestly believes in this great fight and tries to interpret signs the best that she can make sense. Never mind that her acts can appear idiotic at best and horrifying at worst. But across history, people have done crazy things in the name of their religion (The Crusades, etc)

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12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Conversely of course, the decline of the Targaryens once they'd lost their dragons can be likened to the decline of the Mummers' version once they no longer had GRRM's text to guide them

And who better equipped by circumstances and nature to overthrow D&D, in their final days of unhinged, Aerys-like decisionmaking, than we Heretics?

:thumbsup:

Let the Rebellion begin.

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7 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Interesting take! I took his inclusion of her chapter to add some clarity to her motives. She honestly believes in this great fight and tries to interpret signs the best that she can make sense. Never mind that her acts can appear idiotic at best and horrifying at worst. But across history, people have done crazy things in the name of their religion (The Crusades, etc)

Yes, I think there's no doubt that Mel truly believes, but I think that her mistake is in trying to fit her beliefs to Westeros - and in too many readers thinking she's right. The Crusades are indeed a good example.

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15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM once remarked that as a character Mel is seriously misunderstood. He didn't really expand on that but I'm rather of a mind that what he meant was that people read too much into her character and elevate the importance of what she says and does. This I think was a major point of her one and only POV chapter, exploring her motives and exposing her chicanery.

In short, while the Rhlloristas might be playing their part in aspects of this story its a mistake to read it in her terms of Rhllor [and his servant Azor Ahai] against the Great Other. 

People may interpret Mel as a Littlefinger, playing the Game of Thrones.   While she is interested in power, I don't think she is selfish.  GRRM did give her more real magic than almost anyone else, so I don't think we can say she isn't important.   I see her still being a slave or prisoner, maybe even unwillingly, and she needs to accomplish something to earn her freedom. 

We also have the ssm where we are told Melisandre sought out Stannis as aa on her own.   Why?

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Anyone familiar with Zoroastrianism?  I took this as 1 possible source for Melisandre.   

The other being the aspects of Christianity, especially during the middle ages, about the devil and hell.  There is surprisingly little on this in the Bible, but lots of priests got people fired up about an us vs them good vs evil battle. 

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My take is that Melisandre has some personal reason for going against the Great Other. There have been stories of wildlings taken prisoner and sold into slavery, so I wonder if she used to be a wildling? This "Melony lot 7" must mean something and I don't think GRRM will leave us hanging. 

I also believed her when she tried to befriend Jon Snow. She gave him information about his "smiling enemies" that she thought would help him, but he was stabbed anyway. I still don't believe she meant the mutineers, because Bowen Marsh was never two-faced with Jon. 

I'm not sure what Melisandre needs Jon Snow for. Did she see the mutiny in her flames? I think she expected it and that is why she and Selyse left the hall while Jon was giving his big speech.

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I like the theory of Melisandre being Maggy the Frog, I wonder what does Qarth know about Long Night beside the two moons story. I am also interested in House Bracken, they rule Stonehenge, both bracken and fern are tied to magic like rune magic, healing, rain making, and exorcism, I wonder if Brackens have negative view on magic and the reason Aegor covered his skull with gold is to make sure he won't end up as a wispering skull? I also think there is a connection between House Bracken, Ryswell and the Dothraki. Maybe first man include proto Dothraki as well? 

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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Anyone familiar with Zoroastrianism?  I took this as 1 possible source for Melisandre.

Yes, GRRM's said in past interviews that the Red Faith is roughly based on this.

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

her mistake is in trying to fit her beliefs to Westeros - and in too many readers thinking she's right

She's made quite a few mistakes. 

She is much too confident in the accuracy of her interpretations of the future, derived from her flame visions... but her POV chapter reveals she frequently relies on guesswork, and then persuades herself into believing her guesswork is actually fact. 

Quote

 

"I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall."

"Eastwatch?"

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different, but that was oft the way with visions. "Yes. Eastwatch, my lord."

 

Here, despite her clear initial uncertainty, she just arbitrarily decides that what she saw in the flames must be wrong. 

This is typical of the way she often draws false conclusions, delivers bad advice, and creates horrific outcomes.  Stannis -- who has relied on her advice more than any other major player in the series -- may soon discover that for himself in the next book.

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On 6/2/2019 at 9:00 AM, SirArthur said:

This reads like a cooking recipe where you just buy the instant dragon body at the discounter after you have found all the other ingredients. 

Sort of.  The fat man (GRRM) does love his recipes.

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

She's made quite a few mistakes. 

She is much too confident in the accuracy of her interpretations of the future, derived from her flame visions... but her POV chapter reveals she frequently relies on guesswork, and then persuades herself into believing her guesswork is actually fact. 

Here, despite her clear initial uncertainty, she just arbitrarily decides that what she saw in the flames must be wrong. 

This is typical of the way she often draws false conclusions, delivers bad advice, and creates horrific outcomes.  Stannis -- who has relied on her advice more than any other major player in the series -- may soon discover that for himself in the next book.

Yes, the impression I get is that like Thoros she is an exile, cast forth from the Temple to spread the faith among the unbelievers because she has upset people at home [including Master Benero] once too often.

While Thoros abandoned and then found his faith, Mel on the other hand is looking for vindication. she wants the glory of finding Azor Ahai and she fastens on Stannis because of the link to Dragonstone - and I wouldn't be in the least little bit surprised if we find in the end that it was Selyse who persuaded her that Stan is the Man.  Certainly she has no notion of the big bad beyond the Wall until Ser Davos reads that letter.

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57 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Maybe the butterflies of Naath are little dragons, too?

piranhas with wings :devil:

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