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Heresy 223 and where we go from here


Black Crow

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12 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Yes, the impression I get is that like Thoros she is an exile, cast forth from the Temple to spread the faith among the unbelievers because she has upset people at home [including Master Benero] once too often.

While Thoros abandoned and then found his faith, Mel on the other hand is looking for vindication. she wants the glory of finding Azor Ahai and she fastens on Stannis because of the link to Dragonstone - and I wouldn't be in the least little bit surprised if we find in the end that it was Selyse who persuaded her that Stan is the Man.  Certainly she has no notion of the big bad beyond the Wall until Ser Davos reads that letter.

Well, that may not be true (re notion of what’s beyond the wall) I recall her conversations with Maester Aemon who says something to the affect of “its the war of the dawn of which you speak. But who is the prince that was promised?”  When I have read it, I took it to mean she was referring to something unfamiliar to many but those who have studied it - such as Aemon. Perhaps she didn’t know where the Great Other would arrive (the five forts, etc) but when she heard Davos’ reading of the letter she realized it must be the wall.  

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51 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@alienarea Naath and Qarth are my favorite places of asoiaf hope they will be explored more in the series

Doubtful I'm afraid. GRRM has said we may see something of Valyria as it was, but not Asshai, so I think the further afield is unlikely

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Well, that may not be true (re notion of what’s beyond the wall) I recall her conversations with Maester Aemon who says something to the affect of “its the war of the dawn of which you speak. But who is the prince that was promised?”  When I have read it, I took it to mean she was referring to something unfamiliar to many but those who have studied it - such as Aemon. Perhaps she didn’t know where the Great Other would arrive (the five forts, etc) but when she heard Davos’ reading of the letter she realized it must be the wall.  

My point is that she didn't come to Westeros intending to confront the big bad wolf. She ended up on Dragonstone and pulled a Manx cat trick with Stannis. She hadn't thought beyond that and apparently never knew about the Wall until the letter turned up out of the blue. once it did of course she convinced herself that Destiny [the tall one on the left] awaited up there, but it was never part of her original plan.

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20 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Perhaps she didn’t know where the Great Other would arrive (the five forts, etc) but when she heard Davos’ reading of the letter she realized it must be the wall

Something like that.  I think she was uncertain as to exactly where and more than that, exactly when.

But she did understand the basic threat.  Here, again, her POV chapter makes things quite clear:

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She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night.

Her private thinking there echoes exactly what she said two books earlier in ASOS ... before the letter shows up:

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The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.

So this is not just something she latched onto because of the letter Davos brought up... not just a tale told to Stannis.  It's the heart of her whole faith, the core reason she has been chanting since ACOK that the night is dark and full of terrors.

She had been expecting a second Long Night long before Stannis, and she understood correctly that it represented a mortal threat to human life. 

But all that said, she is still remarkably dense when it comes to understanding certain aspects of her visions.   We, as readers who are not blinkered by her dogma, can do better.

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21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Something like that.  I think she was uncertain as to exactly where and more than that, exactly when.

But she did understand the basic threat.  Here, again, her POV chapter makes things quite clear:

Her private thinking there echoes exactly what she said two books earlier in ASOS ... before the letter shows up:

So this is not just something she latched onto because of the letter Davos brought up... not just a tale told to Stannis.  It's the heart of her whole faith, the core reason she has been chanting since ACOK that the night is dark and full of terrors.

She had been expecting a second Long Night long before Stannis, and she understood correctly that it represented a mortal threat to human life. 

But all that said, she is still remarkably dense when it comes to understanding certain aspects of her visions.   We, as readers who are not blinkered by her dogma, can do better.

I agree fully with your summation here. I do think she honestly thinks the ends (defeating the great other) justify whatever means it takes to get there (burning people alive, blood sacrifice through leeches, killing Renly, etc) 

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2 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I agree fully with your summation here. I do think she honestly thinks the ends (defeating the great other) justify whatever means it takes to get there (burning people alive, blood sacrifice through leeches, killing Renly, etc) 

Isn't it pure Darwinism, kill or be killed? Only Sith deal in absolutes, and the red robes fit as well.

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I think Melisandre's visions are actually providing accurate information, even though she interprets them incorrectly. For example, when she saw a “wooden face, corpse white” with a thousand red eyes, accompanied by a boy with a wolf's face, she assumed they were servants of the Great Other. We know the vision was of Bloodraven and Bran, but we don't know yet if they are "servants of the Great Other" or any other alternate theory as to what they are doing in that cave of skulls, but my main point is Melisandre does see them even if she's not sure what she is seeing. 

Melisandre asks to see Azor Ahai, hoping for Stannis, but sees only Jon surrounded by skulls, his face changing between that of a man and that of a wolf. If she was asking to see Azor Ahai and saw Jon, is this confirmation that Jon is Azor Ahai? The wheel of time is inverted so there should be an opposite ending than the historical one. In the past the Nights King was defeated, but if Jon is the Nights King reborn he will win against the Lord of Winterfell this time. 

I don't think Jon can be both Azor Ahai and the Nights King, but since the Nights King should win this time, he might appear to be like an Azor Ahai type hero in the flames. Azor Ahai is an Essos figure and historically quite the opposite from the Night's King. If Melisandre is looking for a hero, then she would do well to know her Westerosi history, because the Last Hero was more like Azor Ahai and defeated the Others. That being said, it would appear that Jon's version of the Nights King will turn out to be the (last) hero this time.

Shortly after Jon receives a letter announcing the upcoming wedding of Ramsay Bolton and Arya Stark, Melisandre informs him that she has seen in her flames a grey girl, fleeing from her marriage on a dying horse and assumes that it must be Arya. She may not have identified the girl correctly, but the vision did come true.

Melisandre tells Jon that she can show him how to use his "power", but he remains wary of her. She then warns Jon that she has seen that three of the nine rangers he has sent out will die, and that she has seen their faces with empty sockets, weeping blood. This prediction comes true, because the next time Melisandre talks to Jon he's north of the Wall looking at the heads of Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, and Garth Greyfeather impaled on poles by the Weeper. Jon then asks her to look in her flames to see the fates of the other six rangers. He adds that Ser Denys Mallister at the Shadow Tower believes the wildlings might try to force their way across the Bridge of Skulls and this is when she brings up the vision of the towers by the sea submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. Someone asks if it's Eastwatch, and the only towers that come to her mind was Eastwatch so she said "yes" not realizing that it was probably the abandoned towers of Westwatch-by-the-Bridge and the Shadow Tower after all. The Bridge of Skulls is the only opening in the Wall without having to climb over or breach the Wall itself, and could be vulnerable to an invasion.

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51 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melisandre asks to see Azor Ahai, hoping for Stannis, but sees only Jon surrounded by skulls, his face changing between that of a man and that of a wolf. If she was asking to see Azor Ahai and saw Jon, is this confirmation that Jon is Azor Ahai? The wheel of time is inverted so there should be an opposite ending than the historical one. In the past the Nights King was defeated, but if Jon is the Nights King reborn he will win against the Lord of Winterfell this time. 

She did ask for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, not for Azor Ahai reborn. I'm actually not sure what she asked for, the text only specifies Azor Ahai.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. 

There are two things here. The first is she asks for a glimpse of AA, not for AA reborn. A part of Ghost is in Jon and a part of Jon is in Ghost. If we follow the old idea that Ghost is not a puppy, we can come to the possibility that "glimpes" of other people are inside him. So a glimpse of Azor Ahai can in theory wander through skinchangings down the ages. Or the old baby skinchanging idea. It does not only work with the WW, it also works with Jon. If AA is down in the Winterfell crypts in some "long slumber until Britain the North needs his help", then his sleeping body could have skinchanged baby Jon hiding in the crypts. And the glimpse remains, in fact it is the reason why Jon is called into the crypts. The baby that appeared in Winterfell and has a Bael the bard story literally was in the crypts.

The other thing is Devan. Why is this scene even there ? Devan is the old Lightbringer grisper back from when she had her symbolic god burning with Stannis on Dragonstone. Devan was one of the last who escaped King's Landing (reborn is salt and smoke hint hint). So she asks for Azor Ahai and her next action is to ask the symbol for AA for a drink. That's the overlooked part of the text. For someone looking at the scene through may be a weirwood net, someone who can not see the vision, it appears that she sees something and her first word after that is "Devan". 

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3 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

She did ask for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, not for Azor Ahai reborn. I'm actually not sure what she asked for, the text only specifies Azor Ahai.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow. "Devan," she called, "a drink." Her throat was raw and parched. 

There are two things here. The first is she asks for a glimpse of AA, not for AA reborn. A part of Ghost is in Jon and a part of Jon is in Ghost. If we follow the old idea that Ghost is not a puppy, we can come to the possibility that "glimpes" of other people are inside him. So a glimpse of Azor Ahai can in theory wander through skinchangings down the ages. Or the old baby skinchanging idea. It does not only work with the WW, it also works with Jon. If AA is down in the Winterfell crypts in some "long slumber until Britain the North needs his help", then his sleeping body could have skinchanged baby Jon hiding in the crypts. And the glimpse remains, in fact it is the reason why Jon is called into the crypts. The baby that appeared in Winterfell and has a Bael the bard story literally was in the crypts.

The other thing is Devan. Why is this scene even there ? Devan is the old Lightbringer grisper back from when she had her symbolic god burning with Stannis on Dragonstone. Devan was one of the last who escaped King's Landing (reborn is salt and smoke hint hint). So she asks for Azor Ahai and her next action is to ask the symbol for AA for a drink. That's the overlooked part of the text. For someone looking at the scene through may be a weirwood net, someone who can not see the vision, it appears that she sees something and her first word after that is "Devan". 

Melisandre has used "reborn" in conjunction with Azor Ahai before:

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The bleeding star has come and gone, and Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai reborn!" 

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The Lord of Light has seen his children in their peril and sent a champion to them, Azor Ahai reborn.

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Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

 

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9 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

The point is that her query is not correct. 

I don't think we need to be so literal. It cannot be Azor Ahai, because he was a historical figure from thousands of years ago. If the heroic figure Mel saw was indeed Azor Ahai and he is alive in the current story, by necessity he would be "reborn". 

My point is that Melisandre saw a heroic figure in her flames fighting against the army of the Great Other and thought she was looking at Azor Ahai reborn. She wants to align herself with this person. She thought she found him when she found Stannis, but the flames are telling her that the man she thought was Azor Ahai is actually Jon Snow and she doesn't realize it.

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think Melisandre's visions are actually providing accurate information, even though she interprets them incorrectly.

I would agree with this as well. She clearly sees things, but I don't think she necessarily understands what she sees. Don't we all do this to some regard though? We look at things with rose colored glasses.

 

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19 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I would agree with this as well. She clearly sees things, but I don't think she necessarily understands what she sees. Don't we all do this to some regard though? We look at things with rose colored glasses.

 

I think she considers what is going on around her. For example, when she saw the girl riding on a dying horse, Jon had just gotten the letter that Ramsay was marrying Arya, so Mel concludes that the girl must be Arya. The same is with the tower and the black and bloody tide. She doesn't know what Westwatch-by-the-Bridge looks like nor realize that it too is adjacent to a large body of water - the Bay of Ice - so when somebody suggests Eastwatch she assumes it must be that tower, because it's adjacent to water.

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think she considers what is going on around her. For example, when she saw the girl riding on a dying horse, Jon had just gotten the letter that Ramsay was marrying Arya, so Mel concludes that the girl must be Arya. The same is with the tower and the black and bloody tide. She doesn't know what Westwatch-by-the-Bridge looks like nor realize that it too is adjacent to a large body of water - the Bay of Ice, so when somebody suggests Eastwatch she assumes it must be that tower, because it's adjacent to water.

Indeed, I wouldn't necessarily say she was looking at things through rose-coloured spectacles but she does fit or rather cram what she sees into preconceptions which may not be appropriate to the time and place. If she passionately believed in R+L=J would she see things differently? And why doesn't she see dragons? Benero and the rest of the crowd at head office are busy proclaiming Danaerys the Dragonlord to be Azor Ahai and are gearing up to attack the Old Blood of Valyria lurking behind the Black Walls of Volantis. They can't both be right. 

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16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think she considers what is going on around her. For example, when she saw the girl riding on a dying horse, Jon had just gotten the letter that Ramsay was marrying Arya, so Mel concludes that the girl must be Arya. The same is with the tower and the black and bloody tide. She doesn't know what Westwatch-by-the-Bridge looks like nor realize that it too is adjacent to a large body of water - the Bay of Ice - so when somebody suggests Eastwatch she assumes it must be that tower, because it's adjacent to water.

Excellent points. She uses what knowledge she has and make an assumption based in that knowledge. I think the fault though lies with her...allowing her assumption to be viewed by others as absolute fact. I think the in book characters take her word as gospel and don’t realize the amount guess work (educated guesses or not) goes into it

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2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, I wouldn't necessarily say she was looking at things through rose-coloured spectacles but she does fit or rather cram what she sees into preconceptions which may not be appropriate to the time and place. If she passionately believed in R+L=J would she see things differently? And why doesn't she see dragons? Benero and the rest of the crowd at head office are busy proclaiming Danaerys the Dragonlord to be Azor Ahai and are gearing up to attack the Old Blood of Valyria lurking behind the Black Walls of Volantis. They can't both be right. 

It’s kinda funny, if you think of it, that she behaves like many of us do at times. We have our theories and sometimes when new information in gleaned we try to cram our theory to fit the new info. (I do this, too, so I am not calling anyone out!!! haha)

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I had joked about a week ago that the show was an inversion to the book, but the opening credits showing the opening in the Wall to the left of the screen before flipping the view to having it on the right makes me think that joke may have some truth in it. The wildlings were following the white walkers and wights down the Milkwater, but once they got close to the Wall Morna White Mask made a comment saying the white walkers and wights should now be behind them - which to me indicates that they know the white walkers are leading the army of the dead west and towards the Bridge of Skulls. I'm thinking Melisandre's vision is correct - she's just interpreting it incorrectly. It's not Eastwatch, but Westwatch where the black and bloody tide breaches the Wall.

The truth is where you are standing. :hat:

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9 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Excellent points. She uses what knowledge she has and make an assumption based in that knowledge. I think the fault though lies with her...allowing her assumption to be viewed by others as absolute fact. I think the in book characters take her word as gospel and don’t realize the amount guess work (educated guesses or not) goes into it

Her mistake is trying to interpret it to fit the current circumstances. 

6 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

It’s kinda funny, if you think of it, that she behaves like many of us do at times. We have our theories and sometimes when new information in gleaned we try to cram our theory to fit the new info. (I do this, too, so I am not calling anyone out!!! haha)

I understand what you're saying. It is kinda funny and GRRM's comment about her being "misunderstood" is actually the author speaking to us through the text telling us to disregard the current circumstances and pay attention to what the "flames" are actually showing us.

 

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24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Her mistake is trying to interpret it to fit the current circumstances. 

I understand what you're saying. It is kinda funny and GRRM's comment about her being "misunderstood" is actually the author speaking to us through the text telling us to disregard the current circumstances and pay attention to what the "flames" are actually showing us.

 

Yes! An excellent point re:flames!

I briefly taught high school English, and while discussing a text one day, I had a student dispute another student’s claim with a solid piece of textual evidence. Usually, I would let them discuss civilly with little interruption on my part as long as they were being respectful and on topic. However, the student whose claim was disputed actually said, “well we can ignore that.” I jumped in at that point, explaining that writing, especially published writing, goes through numerous revisions, and you simply can’t dismiss something because it doesn’t fit your theory. 

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