Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Yes! An excellent point re:flames!

haha, I didn't realize until now that "flames" could have a double meaning! GRRM did say we'd all "fight it out on the internet" once the books were published. Whenever someone posts something outrageous and another person reacts to it in a trollish manner, it's called drawing "flames". Wouldn't it be funny if we're being told (in a roundabout way) to take another look at those "flaming" theorists?

[Black Crow]

55 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Excellent points. She uses what knowledge she has and make an assumption based in that knowledge. I think the fault though lies with her...allowing her assumption to be viewed by others as absolute fact. I think the in book characters take her word as gospel and don’t realize the amount guess work (educated guesses or not) goes into it

I still think the real problem [as GRRM is suggesting] does not lie with the in-book characters taking her word as gospel, but with those book readers who conclude that this is all about a struggle between R'hllor and the Great Other - and that since R+L=J, Jon Snow must therefore be Azor Ahai.

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I still think the real problem [as GRRM is suggesting] does not lie with the in-book characters taking her word as gospel, but with those book readers who conclude that this is all about a struggle between R'hllor and the Great Other - and that since R+L=J, Jon Snow must therefore be Azor Ahai.

Ah. I was just defending Melisandre's visions as providing accurate information, but I disagree with the definition of the prince that was promised. IMO the PtwP is a dragon or a descendent of Aerys and Rhaella who succeeds in hatching dragons. Jon is neither, but he is the Nights King reborn. He was a Lord Commander that was mutinied against, and most readers don't believe he's permanently dead, which would be the reverse of the Nights King tale. If the Nights King gets to live and defeat the Lord of Winterfell, and then also defends the realm from the white walkers and wights, then he is a type of Last Hero which is nearly the same as Azor Ahai - he would be the Westerosi equivalent of an Essos folk hero.

[Black Crow]

Ah, [I can Ah too ] I wasn't suggesting anything at all about Jon but rather observing that too many readers take Mel's haverings as gospel and therefor leap from that to assume that Jon must ipso facto be Azor Ahai.

[Black Crow]

In fact, given certain outcomes revealed by GRRM to the Mummers I do have to question whether Jon merits the status accorded him by so many readers. In other words, while he's an important major character, he's also a dead one and NOT the central one.

[Melifeather]

Just now, Black Crow said:

In fact, given certain outcomes revealed by GRRM to the Mummers I do have to question whether Jon merits the status accorded him by so many readers. In other words, while he's an important major character, he's also a dead one and NOT the central one.

So you think he's dead, eh? lol

[Black Crow]

I do, but death aint what it used to be

[Brad Stark]

I wouldn't assume Jon can't be the Night King and Azor Ahai in the current version of events, because I would not assume they were different people the first time around. 

We already discussed if Azor Ahai could be the same as the Last Hero, since they both were the one who stood against the Others and ended the Long Night.   We also discussed the Last Hero having 12 companions and the Night King being the thirteenth commander.   

So if Azor Ahai and the Last Hero could be the same person and the Night King and the Last Hero be the same person, why not all three?

[Melifeather]

I think the bigger question is what did Melisandre see that led her to believe that Azor Ahai would be reborn? Did she see a flaming sword or did she see a dragon?

Jon had a dream about being armored in black and wielding a flaming sword...

Quote

ADWD Jon III

"His Grace is not an easy man. Few are, who wear a crown. Many good men have been bad kings, Maester Aemon used to say, and some bad men have been good kings."

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

Quote

ADWD - Daenerys III

I know one stands before me now, weeping mummer's tears. The realization made her sad.

"When I went to the Hall of a Thousand Thrones to beg the Pureborn for your life, I said that you were no more than a child," Xaro went on, "but Egon Emeros the Exquisite rose and said, 'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." He wiped away the tears. "I should have slain you in Qarth."

"I was a guest beneath your roof and ate of your meat and mead," she said. "In memory of all you did for me, I will forgive those words … once … but never presume to threaten me again."

Quote

ADWD - Jon XII

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

 

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I wouldn't assume Jon can't be the Night King and Azor Ahai in the current version of events, because I would not assume they were different people the first time around. 

We already discussed if Azor Ahai could be the same as the Last Hero, since they both were the one who stood against the Others and ended the Long Night.   We also discussed the Last Hero having 12 companions and the Night King being the thirteenth commander.   

So if Azor Ahai and the Last Hero could be the same person and the Night King and the Last Hero be the same person, why not all three?

If Westeros and Essos are mirrors of each other, then the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are equivalent people. If we're talking about a coin, then the Night's King is the tails side of the coin and the Last Hero/Azor Ahai is the heads side. I don't know if Essos has an equivalent person to the Nights King.

Edited to add: I take that back. Garin the Great is the same as the Night's King.

 

Sorry to edit so many times....

[Melifeather]

I note many parallels between Garin the Great and the Nights King, with the wights and stone men being the most apparent. 

Garin's curse, which is a cold fog, is an inversion (water versus air) to the cold winds that animate the dead wights.

The wights walk, because their spirit remains in the bones and the bones remember, whereas the stone men have living men inside bodies that have gone to stone from greyscale.

Garin and his 250,000 men went up against the Valyrian dragonlords and lost, even though Garin brought about a flood by appealing to Mother Rhoyne, submerging himself, his soldiers, and some of the dragonlords under water.

North of the Wall is likened to a great sea, and everyone north of it is said to be underwater. Garin was held prisoner in a cage, and Ramsay claims to have Mance in a cage.

I have theorized that the Wall was created by freezing the abated flood that was brought down by the hammer of water, and that the Nights King is entombed in the Black Gate. It is said that the Grey King cast aside his driftwood crown and walked into the sea to descend to the watery halls of the Drowned God to take his place at the right hand of the god. If he was also the Nights King, his entombment into the Black Gate could be seen as descending into a frozen watery hall.

I posit that the Grey King and the Nights King are the same person. It is thought that Garin and the Shrouded Lord are also the same person.

It's said Garin's Curse brought about the Doom of Valyria, which might be a mirror to the Long Night which is reported to have occurred prior to the mutiny of the Nights King.

[Melifeather]

It would appear that there is some overlapping between Westeros and Essos. Jon very clearly seems to be the Nights King reborn while having dreams that he’s Azor Ahai. Meanwhile Mance is hanging in a cage like Garin the Great while his “curse” is coming down upon Westeros from the north.

Daenerys is a reborn dragonlord, but who will she be going against? We need a repeat of the Last Hero with 12 friends leaving on an expedition to go out and kill her. Sort of like having the Nights King killing his queen with a sword of ice. Maybe Hizdar will kill her? Do we know of anyone else in Essos capable of forging a sword of ice? The only character associated with forging anything is Gendry, but we’ve had no inkling that he plans on going to Essos anytime soon.

[Direwolf Blitzer]

7 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The same is with the tower and the black and bloody tide. She doesn't know what Westwatch-by-the-Bridge looks like nor realize that it too is adjacent to a large body of water - the Bay of Ice - so when somebody suggests Eastwatch she assumes it must be that tower, because it's adjacent to water.

What do people think that vision is about, anyway? Perhaps Euron is the black tide? He's reaving on the coasts, anyway.

 

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the bigger question is what did Melisandre see that led her to believe that Azor Ahai would be reborn? Did she see a flaming sword or did she see a dragon?

Jon had a dream about being armored in black and wielding a flaming sword...

See, I think Jon is  AA. At the end of the day the bad guys simply are not going to win. GRRM cannot subvert all our expectations, because it would be stupid. The Long Night will not descend on Westeros forever. So when Mel asks to see AA and she sees Snow, well... yes.

(I'm sure the job of saving the world will be brutal and thankless and that Jon will not reign forever in King's Landing, but just imagine how stupid it would be if the big hero of your series stumbled through 7 books only to do... nothing. Like, I don't know, if maybe Arya kills all the Walkers, rendering the Watch meaningless, and someone else takes the throne, rendering his kingly heritage meaningless. Just spitballing here. Anyway, the narrative demands that Jon be significant, even if he doesn't get a romantic ending.)

Regarding Jon's dream, what if he gets resurrected Coldhands-style? Would fit with the black ice symbolism, though I'll grant it's a small stretch. Certainly covers the Ice and Fire bases.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the bigger question is what did Melisandre see that led her to believe that Azor Ahai would be reborn? Did she see a flaming sword or did she see a dragon?

I don't think that she saw anything particular. As we see with Master Benero the return of Azor Ahai is a major tenet of the Red religion.

That's one of her problems, in that she believes Azor Ahai will return to signal the coming of the final conflict and so she's looking for him and if necessary pull a Manx cat and make him herself.

[Lady Rhodes]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

North of the Wall is likened to a great sea, and everyone north of it is said to be underwater. 

Interesting! I hadn’t caught that! How does Patchface’s speech tie into this if we take underwater to mean North of the Wall?

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

That's one of her problems, in that she believes Azor Ahai will return to signal the coming of the final conflict and so she's looking for him and if necessary pull a Manx cat and make him herself.

What is a Manx cat?  I had one once and he did plenty of great tricks.  But I don't think you mean Melisandre played fetch with aluminum foil balls.

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that she saw anything particular. As we see with Master Benero the return of Azor Ahai is a major tenet of the Red religion.

Do we have any clues as to why she picked Stannis?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Interesting! I hadn’t caught that! How does Patchface’s speech tie into this if we take underwater to mean North of the Wall?

Patchface's little ditties are actually quite revealing and prophetic. He predicted the Red Wedding for example: 

Quote

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."

The "fool's blood" was Jinglebells. The "king's blood" was Robb Stark. The "blood on the maiden's thigh" indicate the bedding after the wedding feast. And the chains for the guests and bridegroom were the guests that were taken hostage and not killed.

Most of Patchface's ditties include references to the northern sea and living underwater. Patchface of course was resuscitated after drowning when the ship he was on sunk within sight of Storms End. He knows a bit about the dead coming back to life.

This next one is in reference to the north and the Wall:

Quote

Under the sea the old fish eat the young fish. Up here the young fish teach the old fish.

In ADWD The Sacrifice, after Stannis captured Deepwood Motte, he marched the 300 miles towards Winterfell. The march should have taken 15 days, but it stretched well past 30 days. People were dying along the way and food was running out. Four Peasebury men were caught eating Lord Fell's flesh so the queen's men burned them as a sacrifice to the Lord of Light. There were comments that they smelled so good roasting - so juicy.

The last bit about "young fish" teaching the "old fish" seems to be in reference to Shireen teaching Davos to read, and maybe Samwell Tarly helping Maester Aemon.

Here's another one about the Night's Watch:

Quote

The crow, the crow. Under the sea the crows are white as snow, I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.

The men of the Watch are called "crows", but lately they do tend to die when they venture north and become deadly wights. Maybe Patchface actually meant wight as snow?

Quote

I will lead it! We will march into the sea and out again. Under the waves we will ride seahorses, and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming, oh, oh, oh.

Patchface said the above ditty after LC Jon Snow and Selyce were talking about the wildlings at Hardhome. Selyce told Jon that they could not spare any food for them and that the children were too young to be of any help to Stannis anyway - let them die. Jon informed Selyce that he intended to lead the ranging to Hardhome to bring them food and to lead the wildlings back to the Wall. Because they are underwater the horses therefore must be seahorses. 

[JNR]

19 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

We have our theories and sometimes when new information in gleaned we try to cram our theory to fit the new info.

Yes, it's been an awkward business on this site for years, but it's more obvious than ever these days.

For instance... the theory that the show has spoiled future books.

Today, we know for sure the show has not spoiled the books in many important areas.  Everything pertaining to the show's Night King, for instance, is not spoiled, such as the resolution of the second Long Night, which is going to be a huge deal.

Everything pertaining to Sansa's marriage to Ramsay cannot be spoiled because that marriage simply never happens in the books.  Everything requiring teleportation of humans, birds, entire armies, etc on the show -- and there was a great deal of it -- cannot be spoiled, because GRRM doesn't do teleportation.

People who constantly asserted Jon will be king of Westeros in the books, and also that the show and books must be the same on important points, are now out of luck because Jon's non regis on the show.

All the same, despite all that, I'm sure fans will continue to back the theory that the show has basically spoiled the books.

[JNR]

11 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

just imagine how stupid it would be if the big hero of your series stumbled through 7 books only to do... nothing

I agree with most of your post -- the Popsicles are just not going to win -- but there really is no big hero in this series IMO.  Or even a protagonist.  

We'll see various characters do various things in defense of Westeros and I'm sure Jon will be an enormously important one, but will he be more important than, say, whoever or whatever can control Dany's dragons?  If control is ever achieved? 

That's hard for me to begin to guess... but I am at least sure GRRM will address the concept of achieving control, which the show never did.

12 hours ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

So when Mel asks to see AA and she sees Snow, well... yes.

It seems likely to me too.  What AA actually does, though, is largely up for debate.  

The Red Faith is not likely to be much more accurate about that than Mel is on her personal prophecies.

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we have any clues as to why she picked Stannis?

Sure.  From Mel:

Quote

Stannis is the Lord's chosen, destined to lead the fight against the dark. I have seen it in the flames, read of it in ancient prophecy. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. Dragonstone is the place of smoke and salt.

But Jon's observation in a later chapter is perhaps on point:

Quote

It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady.