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Heresy 223 and where we go from here


Black Crow

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20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

around the time that Mel was coming west.

When, exactly, did she come West? I have always been under the impression that she arrived recently, after Stannis left King’s Landing following Jon Arryn’s death. There is no mention of Mel being in King’s Landing while Stannis was there. Furthermore, he has been lord of Dragonstone since Robert became king, why did her interest pique now?

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

remain torn between Jon and Dany for AAR; i

I read something interesting that has intrigued me and provides answers for a few ASOIAF mysteries. The Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai prophecies have become jumbled or broken with time. Parts are missing. I think in order for Azor Ahai to be reborn, Nissa Nissa does as well. In this case, we need TWO people to fill TWO roles. (Keep in mind, I’m not saying Daenerys can’t be Azor Ahai and Jon Nissa Nissa.)

Also, regarding AA’s  sacrifice of NN, the text says that all of her soul and warmth went into Lightbringer. I posit that NN becomes the female Other that the Night’s King falls in love and rules with. 

I also suspect that the Last Hero and AA are the same person. The last hero had 12 companions who joined him, making a total of 13. The Night’s King was the 13th Lord Commander. I think AA, who if my theory holds true may be a Stark since it is heavily implied the Night’s King was a Stark, is approached by his former love and gives into this temptation. (The whole Batman quote of you die a hero or live long enough to become a villain.)

20 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

and I think your last paragraph is exactly what the shadowbinders from Asshai are afraid of - that Dany is on a more dangerous path.

I suspect Quaithe may be guiding Daenerys on this dangerous path, though, albeit perhaps unintentionally. The talk of treasons feeds the Targaryen paranoia in her. 

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On 6/6/2019 at 8:45 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

I know we have discussed this in the past and that you have a different interpretation, but I think Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised is akin to the Greek and Roman gods, for instance. Zeus and Jupiter are the same, just different names in different cultures.  AA is more of an "eastern"/Asshai name whereas the Prince that was Promised, I think, has Valyrian roots.

To be fair, the show did this poorly, but if something similar happens in the books (RE: Dany's jealousy) I wouldn't be surprised.  Throughout Dance (and the Meereenese Blot has excellent essays on this that even GRRM has said are well-done and that the author "got it") Daenerys has a growing paranoia - preoccupied with the treasons prophecy, etc.  Not that there weren't legitimate attempts to thwart her rule! But the more I reflect on her chapters in Dance, it is her descending into a paranoid state that, as we know, has not behooved Targaryen's in the past. .  So, I wouldn't say that she was jealous per se, but she saw how people loved Jon and flocked to him and raved about him and followed him, and I think that fed a paranoia that was already there.  That said, I think the show did a piss poor job of showing this paranoia because that paranoia started when she heard the treason prophecies (which the show cut), and grew during the Meereen insurgency (which they failed to show her mental state during that time).

Reminds me of Robert Frost's Fire and Ice poem. 

Interesting take! I like it.  The road to hell being paved in good intentions and what not.

But he is a king at the Night's Fort, and if the rumors of the Night's King being a Stark are true, the Night's King was killed by his brother, Lord Stark, but Stannis had his brother killed (Renly), which would be an inversion.

I theorize that Jon is the Nights King and Ramsay is his "brother". Recall the Nights King was taken down by the Lord of Winterfell. Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are brothers in bastardy and share the same last name. Stannis has no relation to Ramsay who is the current Lord of Winterfell. Jon also already "spied" his Other woman (Ygritte) north of the Wall. He also chased her down and loved her, fulfilling that part of the story as well. Melisandre may be undead, but she's not one of the Others that lived north of the Wall.

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17 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I theorize that Jon is the Nights King and Ramsay is his "brother". Recall the Nights King was taken down by the Lord of Winterfell. Jon Snow and Ramsay Snow are brothers in bastardy and share the same last name. Stannis has no relation to Ramsay who is the current Lord of Winterfell. Jon also already "spied" his Other woman (Ygritte) north of the Wall. He also chased her down and loved her, fulfilling that part of the story as well. Melisandre may be undead, but she's not one of the Others that lived north of the Wall.

Interesting take. Did you see in my other reply to you regarding Stannis killing Renly being an inversion of the Lord of Winterfell killing his brother the Night’s King?

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1 hour ago, JNR said:

HBO's already told us the next show will feature "the true origin of the white walkers."  There are a hundred ways they could have marketed the Long Night show without saying GOT's version was bullshit, but they did say that.

It's a corporate press release, and it seems questionable to read so much into it. It might indeed mean that the Prequel will tell a different story that is more accurate to Martin's ideas of the Others--but it might just as easily mean it'll be a different story because Jane Goldman has largely had to chart her own path*, and she's presenting an interpretation of the Others that fits with the narrative and character's she's going to present.

The two might also share the same underlying plot point (eg, the CotF create the Others), but wildly different details of presentation, by virtue of GOT not really having much narrative to speak of when it comes to the Others. It might also mean nothing at all, being a corporate press release hyping a show that hadn't (at that point) even begun filming.

*On this point:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/arts/television/george-rr-martin-nightflyers-game-of-thrones.html

Quote

How does Goldman’s vision vary from your original concept, with the “Age of Heroes” and the coming of the first White Walkers?

Well, she had to add something. If you look at the published books so far, there’s really very little material about that — a sentence here, a sentence there. Old Nan tells a tale that takes up a paragraph. So Jane had to create the characters, the settings and some of the events, and we had to look at everything that was said and say, “O.K., here’s what was said at this point, we need to make it consistent to that.” We kicked around some ideas and I made some suggestions. But mostly it’s been Jane running with it. It’s set thousands of years before “Game of Thrones.” King’s Landing does not exist. The Iron Throne does not exist. There are no dragons there.

Like everything else that he hasn't actually written, it sounds like the underlying ideas are vague and highly flexible, open to gardening.

1 hour ago, JNR said:

For instance, the show version was way out of the timeline (given in both the books and the show's own DVD History features) in putting the Long Night thousands of years too early -- prior to the Pact. 

According to Histories and Lore, the show's timeline is:
War between men and CotF > Hammer of the Waters > CotF Create the NK "to turn men's numbers against them" > The Pact > Hundreds of years pass, and the NK turns up with an army to slaughter both humans and CotF, prompting the LN
 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

When, exactly, did she come West? I have always been under the impression that she arrived recently, after Stannis left King’s Landing following Jon Arryn’s death.

I'm not sure precisely when, but I'm operating under the assumption that she began heading west while Viserys was still alive (so Dany would still be Lady of Dragonstone...well, I suppose that also depends on whether Young Griff is the real deal, or whether the WB is right about Aerys II shaking up the line of succession). I raise that primarily because, if Dany is the one Mel is actually seeking, that might be yet another portent that has been misapplied to Stannis.

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16 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Interesting take. Did you see in my other reply to you regarding Stannis killing Renly being an inversion of the Lord of Winterfell killing his brother the Night’s King?

Yes I did, and that is actually what I see Jon doing. The Pink Letter indicates that Ramsay has Mance in a cage, which is what happened to Garin the Great. The Nights King tale has the Lord of Winterfell allying with King Beyond the Wall Joramun to take down the 13th Lord Commander who became the Nights King. If history is unraveling and undoing outcomes, the the Nights King should prevail this time with or without the King Beyond the Wall.

15 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

It's a corporate press release, and it seems questionable to read so much into it. It might indeed mean that the Prequel will tell a different story that is more accurate to Martin's ideas of the Others--but it might just as easily mean it'll be a different story because Jane Goldman has largely had to chart her own path*, and she's presenting an interpretation of the Others that fits with the narrative and character's she's going to present.

The two might also share the same underlying plot point (eg, the CotF create the Others), but wildly different details of presentation, by virtue of GOT not really having much narrative to speak of when it comes to the Others. It might also mean nothing at all, being a corporate press release hyping a show that hadn't (at that point) even begun filming.

*On this point:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/arts/television/george-rr-martin-nightflyers-game-of-thrones.html

Like everything else that he hasn't actually written, it sounds like the underlying ideas are vague and highly flexible, open to gardening.

According to Histories and Lore, the show's timeline is:
War between men and CotF > Hammer of the Waters > CotF Create the NK "to turn men's numbers against them" > The Pact > Hundreds of years pass, and the NK turns up with an army to slaughter both humans and CotF, prompting the LN
 

I'm not sure precisely when, but I'm operating under the assumption that she began heading west while Viserys was still alive (so Dany would still be Lady of Dragonstone...well, I suppose that also depends on whether Young Griff is the real deal, or whether the WB is right about Aerys II shaking up the line of succession). I raise that primarily because, if Dany is the one Mel is actually seeking, that might be yet another portent that has been misapplied to Stannis.

The timeline is a bit off if they have the Nights King prior to the Long Night. The Long Night is suppose to come first, then the Wall, and then 13 Lord Commanders later, the Nights King.

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes I did, and that is actually what I see Jon doing. The Pink Letter indicates that Ramsay has Mance in a cage, which is what happened to Garin the Great. The Nights King tale has the Lord of Winterfell allying with King Beyond the Wall Joramun to take down the 13th Lord Commander who became the Nights King. If history is unraveling and undoing outcomes, the the Nights King should prevail this time with or without the King Beyond the Wall.

The timeline is a bit off if they have the Nights King prior to the Long Night. The Long Night is suppose to come first, then the Wall, and then 13 Lord Commanders later, the Nights King.

I would agree with this timeline. I’ll be open. We will see how it is portrayed once it starts. For instance, the press release may have been comprised by someone at HBO unaffiliated with the project, only given a summary to write the release on, not realizing the bits they are picked from the summary make the whole thing sound off base.

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17 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I would agree with this timeline. I’ll be open. We will see how it is portrayed once it starts. For instance, the press release may have been comprised by someone at HBO unaffiliated with the project, only given a summary to write the release on, not realizing the bits they are picked from the summary make the whole thing sound off base.

I think their confusion is coming from the mummer's version which showed the Nights King as the leader of the white walker and wight army, when in fact the Nights King had married and turned his command on the Wall into a monarchy, but was brought down because he was caught sacrificing to the Others, and was accused of keeping the Watch in his thrall. It all sounds like propaganda to justify removing him, and I imagine he was taken prisoner and executed, so how would he then become the leader of all the white walkers and wights???

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26 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The timeline is a bit off if they have the Nights King prior to the Long Night. The Long Night is suppose to come first, then the Wall, and then 13 Lord Commanders later, the Nights King.

Oh, it's definitely off, I'm just saying that it isn't the timeline that is occasionally presented in Heresy, which places the LN prior to the Pact, and recontexutalizes the LH seeking out the CotF as a surrender; in show world, "the creation of the first WW" and "the LN" are incidents separated by thousands of years.

I do, however, think that the Hammer wasn't the final incident that prompted the Pact--I think the CotF and their allies (eg, the Crannogmen) created the first Green Men as their trump card to pressure men into the Pact.

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think their confusion is coming from the mummer's version which showed the Nights King as the leader of the white walker and wight army, when in fact the Nights King had married and turned his command on the Wall into a monarchy, but was brought down because he was caught sacrificing to the Others, and was accused of keeping the Watch in his thrall. It all sounds like propaganda to justify removing him, and I imagine he was taken prisoner and executed, so how would he then become the leader of all the white walkers and wights???

What it really boils down to is that we have limited information about the Others. We have seen them a handful of times (Game Prologue, Sam in Storm, Hardhome letter in Dance) We have a lot of circumstantial evidence to point to things but not a lot of concrete. Perhaps the Night’s King was tied to the Winterfell weirwood as a blood sacrifice to the Old Gods by his Stark brother after losing and something happened akin to what we were shown? 

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17 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Oh, it's definitely off, I'm just saying that it isn't the timeline that is occasionally presented in Heresy, which places the LN prior to the Pact, and recontexutalizes the LH seeking out the CotF as a surrender; in show world, "the creation of the first WW" and "the LN" are incidents separated by thousands of years.

I do, however, think that the Hammer wasn't the final incident that prompted the Pact--I think the CotF and their allies (eg, the Crannogmen) created the first Green Men as their trump card to pressure men into the Pact.

Well, the text does present the Pact as the beginning of a four thousand year long friendship and marked the end of the Dawn Age and the beginning of the Age of Heroes. It's said to have endured through the Age of Heroes, the Long Night, and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, up until the Andals came, which makes it sound like it was broken afterward.

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3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

When, exactly, did she come West? I have always been under the impression that she arrived recently, after Stannis left King’s Landing following Jon Arryn’s death. There is no mention of Mel being in King’s Landing while Stannis was there. Furthermore, he has been lord of Dragonstone since Robert became king, why did her interest pique now?

The earliest reference to her comes in AGoT and a meeting of the small council, shortly after Trouserless Bob turned up his toes. The threat from Stannis is discussed and mention is made of a rumour that he had hired a shadow-binder from Asshai.

That suggests that she'd only recently arrived

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16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

The earliest reference to her comes in AGoT and a meeting of the small council, shortly after Trouserless Bob turned up his toes. The threat from Stannis is discussed and mention is made of a rumour that he had hired a shadow-binder from Asshai.

That suggests that she'd only recently arrived

Excellent. Thank you for the textual source. 

So, if he has been Lord of Dragonstone for approximately 14 years, why has she only recently arrived? I accept that the lands to the east, such as Asshai, may not have thorough knowledge of the affairs of Westeros, but the discussions in Qarth make it seem like there is some knowledge, plus mercantile travel would still yield knowledge, especially with Stannis as Master of Ships. 

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I would agree with this timeline. I’ll be open. We will see how it is portrayed once it starts. For instance, the press release may have been comprised by someone at HBO unaffiliated with the project, only given a summary to write the release on, not realizing the bits they are picked from the summary make the whole thing sound off base.

For clarity, the "first WW made before the Pact" timeline doesn't come from the press release about the prequel show, it comes from the Histories and Lore DVD extras.

Here's the press release for the show:

Quote

Taking place thousands of years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the world's descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. And only one thing is for sure: from the horrifying secrets of Westeros's history to the true origin of the White Walkers, the mysteries of the East, to the Starks of legend...it's not the story we think we know.

Other bits of information are that GRRM calls the show "The Long Night," though it's presently filming under the working title of "Bloodmoon." Naomi Watts plays the main character, "a charismatic socialite hiding a dark secret." And finally, Jane Goldman was responsible for coming up with a lot of the actual details of characterization and narrative, so it's not yet clear if all of that "it's not the story we think we know" business is because the Prequel is going to break away from D&D to present something that's more true to GRRM's books, or if it's going to break away from both D&D and the books to tell its own story.

32 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

So, if he has been Lord of Dragonstone for approximately 14 years, why has she only recently arrived?

If her fires were warning that LN 2.0 was coming, and that dragons would soon wake from stone, it may be that her visions prompted her to come west, that she didn't know until recently that this was the era in which AAR would be born.

Something I've considered in the past is that Melisandre is somewhat odd in that she's not just a Red Priest, but also a shadowbinder that trained in Asshai; while I can't prove this, I suspect that the shadowbinders and the people of the Shadow Lands have dragon lore (and other types of knowledge) that is unknown to the rest of the world. I suspect that Mel is conflating R'hllorist dogma with things that she learned in Asshai.

That whole "wake dragons from stone" part is particularly curious, as the Red Priesthood does not otherwise appear to have been interested in coming west to help the Targaryens bring their dragons back, so I think that whatever ritual Mel is going to perform, it's something she learned in Asshai.

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1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Something I've considered in the past is that Melisandre is somewhat odd in that she's not just a Red Priest, but also a shadowbinder that trained in Asshai; while I can't prove this, I suspect that the shadowbinders and the people of the Shadow Lands have dragon lore (and other types of knowledge) that is unknown to the rest of the world. I suspect that Mel is conflating R'hllorist dogma with things that she learned in Asshai

I have an unusual theory about this. I don’t think Melisandre is a TRUE shadowbinder. Yes, she creates a shadow demon but Davos actually never uses the word shadowbinder in reference to it. He only refers to it as sorcery. She may be a soThe only time shadowbinder is used is by Tyrion and my the maester in the prologue. Both times it is used in a more derogatory manner, like a disparaging comment against those from Asshai. Quaithe is a known shadowbinder who wears a wooden mask but Melisandre wears no such mask. Perhaps I am mistaken but I understood shadowbinders to wear such masks. 

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

So, if he has been Lord of Dragonstone for approximately 14 years, why has she only recently arrived? I accept that the lands to the east, such as Asshai, may not have thorough knowledge of the affairs of Westeros, but the discussions in Qarth make it seem like there is some knowledge, plus mercantile travel would still yield knowledge, especially with Stannis as Master of Ships. 

I don't know exactly how it works out, my guess is that it is related to the previous red priest at court, Thoros. 

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Game of Thrones talked about rumors Stannis was seeking counsel from a Shadowbinder.  Maybe it is the other way around, Stannis sought out Melisandre.   It would be perfectly in Melisandre's character to believe Azor Ahai was looking for her - that's why Stannis, he thought she was important and believed in her and she needs to be important.  She certainly isn't going to name Renly or someone else who doesn't want her around. 

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5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The earliest reference to her comes in AGoT and a meeting of the small council, shortly after Trouserless Bob turned up his toes. The threat from Stannis is discussed and mention is made of a rumour that he had hired a shadow-binder from Asshai.

That suggests that she'd only recently arrived

Well the text is not clear on that. Here is the exact quote from Game :

Quote

AGOT, Tyrion IX

169-059   "What of Stannis? He's the elder, not Renly. How does he feel about his brother's claim?"

169-060   His father frowned. "I have felt from the beginning that Stannis was a greater danger than all the others combined. Yet he does nothing. Oh, Varys hears his whispers. Stannis is building ships, Stannis is hiring sellswords, Stannis is bringing a shadowbinder from Asshai. What does it mean? Is any of it true?"

Clash's Prologue could suggest Selyse has changed her faith recently :

 

Quote

ACOK, Prologue

P02-109   "I am pleased to hear it, my lord." Lady Selyse was as tall as her husband, thin of body and thin of face, with prominent ears, a sharp nose, and the faintest hint of a moustache on her upper lip. She plucked it daily and cursed it regularly, yet it never failed to return. Her eyes were pale, her mouth stern, her voice a whip. She cracked it now. "Lady Arryn owes you her allegiance, as do the Starks, your brother Renly, and all the rest. You are their one true king. It would not be fitting to plead and bargain with them for what is rightfully yours by the grace of god."

P02-110   God, she said, not gods. The red woman had won her, heart and soul, turning her from the gods of the Seven Kingdoms, both old and new, to worship the one they called the Lord of Light.

P02-111    "Your god can keep his grace," said Lord Stannis, who did not share his wife's fervent new faith.

But there's also this quote from Littlefinger :

Quote

ACOK, Tyrion III

215-010   Tyrion made a show of glancing over the writing again. There had been some niggling phrase... "Done in the Light of the Lord," he read. "A queer choice of words, that."

215-011   Pycelle cleared his throat. "These words often appear in letters and documents from the Free Cities. They mean no more than, let us say, written in the sight of god. The god of the red priests. It is their usage, I do believe."

215-012   "Varys told us some years past that Lady Selyse had taken up with some red priest," Littlefinger reminded them.

Here Selyse's turn of faith doesn't seem to be so new.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

A Glamor can hide many things. ;)

Very true...

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

In my understanding the man getting sacrificed in Bran's vision is a Bran Stark and the Night's King.

This could fit what I suggested earlier that the Night’s King was sacrificed to a weirwood and then he became an Other.

2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know exactly how it works out, my guess is that it is related to the previous red priest at court, Thoros. 

I can by a certain amount of missionary work, so to speak. They are tasked with spreading their religion. But I don’t recall her referencing Thoros or he her.

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Game of Thrones talked about rumors Stannis was seeking counsel from a Shadowbinder.  Maybe it is the other way around, Stannis sought out Melisandre.   It would be perfectly in Melisandre's character to believe Azor Ahai was looking for her - that's why Stannis, he thought she was important and believed in her and she needs to be important.  She certainly isn't going to name Renly or someone else who doesn't want her around. 

Can you honestly see Stannis searching for a red priestess/sorcerer/ shadowbinder, especially while Robert is still alive? Now, I could see Selyse doing it, but not Stannis.

 

7 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

Here Selyse's turn of faith doesn't seem to be so new.

Ah, an excellent quote that does seem to settle the issue. I can’t see Thoros and Selyse being fast friends but if she was converted to the faith, she was probably easily won over by Melisandre when she appeared. 

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