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Heresy 223 and where we go from here


Black Crow

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55 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

- She sees something in her flames that convinces her the end is nigh, and accordingly, this also must be an era in which AA will return

I would throw this out the window. First we know that the long Night was a period in the midst of a very long winter. That means there is a winter before and after the Long Night. And then we know where this winter ended: somewhere in the Reach before Oldtown. 

At this point there is no conclusion based on the legends of old that the end TM is nigh for all of Westeros or even Planetos.

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20 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

I'm pretty sure this vision has nothing to do with Jon or the Wall. Many of the images in this vision are related to events in the south, and I believe the towers are as well. 

Let's start with Mel's vision:

A few things stand out here. Mel asks to see R'hllor's king, his instrument. While she thinks it's Stannis, the visions that immediately follow have nothing to do with Stannis and even less to do with Jon.

The towers are specifically said to be by the sea, not just some body of water. This is relevant because the rest of the vision brings up some major Euron imagery. The dark tide rising up is reminiscent of Bran's dream when the sea came to Winterfell, as well as Moqorro's warning of Euron "sailing on a sea of blood". 

In another part of her POV chapter, Mel specifically refers to a bloody tide:

Shadows in the shape of skulls: Aeron's vision included Euron on a pile of skulls before he transitioned to the IT.

Bodies locked together in lust: dwarves capering for Euron's amusement.

And of course, dragons.

Here is the passage from The Forsaken:

When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

Here is Aeron's second vision:

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

It seems pretty clear to me that Aeron and Mel are having some overlapping visions. Both feature a red/bloody sea, lots of skulls, "bodies locked together in lust", and dragons. I think we have discussed before that some big events will show up in everyone's visions around the time they occur, such as the red wedding being shown to Dany in Qarth but also the GOHH in the Riverlands. Apparently, Euron taking power, forcing Tyrion & Penny into sex slavery (I imagine this is how he gets Cersei to be his mate), and successfully using the hellhorn to get dragons are going to leave major ripples in the vision-net of Planetos...

But back to the towers by the sea. IMHO, we should be looking at castles/cities  that are on the Southeastern coast of Westeros, since that's where Euron is, and whose fall would have some meaning to the story. There is really only one that fits and is specifically said to have towers:

The castle Three Towers is located at the entrance to the Whispering Sound which leads to Oldtown, at the northern end of the Redwyne Straits. It is the seat of House Costayne. We have had foreshadowing that Euron is planning a trap for his enemies, making them think they can trap him in the straits but then using the holy blood from his collection of priests to summon krakens. Hence the "sea of blood" that Mel, Aeron and Moqorro all saw will be literal, and located immediately in front of the Three Towers castle. 

What do you think? 

Yeah, I think you're right...

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14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The white lady... well I think its quite wrong to interpret her as a white walker. Yes GRRM does say that his ones are beautiful, like the Sidhe made of ice, rather than the warmed over corpses paraded by the mummers, but being made of ice presents certain "difficulties" in forming a relationship with warm blooded humans. In any case, after he was overthrown it was found that he and his men had been sacrificing to the Others, which suggests doing a Craster.

The Night King's bride is most likely a wight. She has pale white skin and the most significant feature is the blue eyes. She's literally the corpse bride. The NK probably fell in love with a wight. GRRM has written a short story about necrophilia so this would not be totally off base for him. 

In the first GoT chapter where we see wights, they are dead bodies. The WW were probably trying to trick the Night's Watch into letting wights inside. It might be an attempt at breaching the Wall, a magical ward that keeps the fire and ice magic separate. The corpse bride might have been another attempt to trick the Lord Commander and perform ritual magic that broke the warding magic of the Wall. It doesn't succeed, of course. 

I bet that fire and ice magic stuff cannot pass the Wall without the NW or the LC permitting it explicitly. It's established that dragons cannot pass over the Wall. And the wights probably couldn't walk back to the wall, so they lay there as corpses. But if the NW allows it, these two elements might be able to pass the barrier. A human LC would never allow anything Other to move through, so the WW may have to resort to deception. 

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On 6/5/2019 at 1:14 PM, Matthew. said:

However, if we don't read the "Red Sword" as literal, I feel as though Dany is a more intuitive fit for all of the signs and portents that Mel seems to value--she emerged from the fire beneath the red comet with newly 'forged' weapons in the dragons, and that act possibly played a role in significantly strengthening fire magic. Under that scenario, AAR becomes a more dangerous figure, a true fire messiah who has come to radically reorder the world--something more in line with Benero's preaching, or the Stallion that Mounts the World prophesy.

... or the show ending? :leaving:

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Exactly so and I think that its dangerous to confuse the two or at least up to a point, that is the old heresy that there's a connection between the tree-huggers and the white walkers, but the connection I think is the Starks. One of the biggest weaknesses of the Mummers' version was that GRRM provided the outcomes for Bran and Jon, but obviously never told them anything anent how those outcomes were arrived at. 

This remains the joy of Heresy. While the disciples of R+L=J are left frustrated and bewildered by the collapse of their predictions we are still able to to theorise and discuss the massive gap between where we are now in book terms and those outcomes - which don't seem too far away from what we miserable heretics have been discussing all along

 

[smug... moi?]

Something happened long ago in Asshai that threw off the season, likely long before the Long Night and the Other's.  I believe this was the ancestors of the Starks, working some dark magic to gain power over ice and the weather.  When the Children decided to create the Others, they did so by sacrificing members of this bloodline, thousands of years later.

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

I would throw this out the window. First we know that the long Night was a period in the midst of a very long winter. That means there is a winter before and after the Long Night. And then we know where this winter ended: somewhere in the Reach before Oldtown. 

At this point there is no conclusion based on the legends of old that the end TM is nigh for all of Westeros or even Planetos.

As a matter of objective truth, LN 2.0 might not be the end of Planetos, but what's more relevant is what Melisandre believes; explicitly, she thinks an era of great darkness, and the night that never ends are coming.

For some reason or another, Melisandre decided to come westward, and unlike Thoros, it wasn't because she was sent, so what was the inciting incident? It may have been a bit of information she picked up from a traveler in Asshai, or something she read, or perhaps some incident in Volantis, but my personal inclination is that she saw something in her flames that convinced her that she was living in the era of AAR.
 

14 minutes ago, MaesterSam said:

... or the show ending?

Roughly speaking, Dany's rally in Ep. 6 seems like a fulfillment of the Stallion that Mounts the World, and aligns more closely with what Benero (and Show World Kinvara) want out of their fire messiah. It also overlaps with Euron's expectation that the world will be broken and remade, and that this was heralded by the red comet.

 

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1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

 I bet that fire and ice magic stuff cannot pass the Wall without the NW or the LC permitting it explicitly.

This is something I've pondered as well, since Othor and Jafer are able to pass through the Wall without it invalidating their magic. Both Mormont and Jon Snow are present, so one prospect is that they were able to pass the wards because they were 'granted' passage by the LC, and an alternative prospect would be that they were granted passage by a Stark, a descendant of Bran the Builder. 

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On 6/6/2019 at 2:53 AM, Black Crow said:

The Targaryens think he/she is a good thing but we don't know why. The Red Lot think he/she is a good thing but differ as to whether he/she is to go North [Mel] or next door to Volantis [Benero] which suggests a certain confusion as to whether the Great Other is an individual. Salador Saan on the other hand warns that Azor Ahai perhaps aint so good by citing the story of his slaying his beloved wife in order to create his sword - mirrored both by Mel's private thoughts and Benero's preaching of how those who aint the elect will be doomed, with a very strong hint that they will be doing the dooming

I'm glad you brought this up, because on a recent reread I noticed that GRRM really emphasized how Dany had to pay a high price to get her dragons:

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Mirri Maz Duur smiled. “Only a maegi can save your rider now, Silver Lady.”
“Is there no other way?”
“No other.”
Khal Drogo gave a shuddering gasp.
“Do it,” Dany blurted. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. “Save him.”
There is a price,” the godswife warned her.
“You’ll have gold, horses, whatever you like.”
“It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life.”
“Death?” Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. “My death?” She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur promised. “Not your death, Khaleesi.”
Dany trembled with relief. “Do it.”

Quote

Jhogo looked terrified as he struggled with the stallion’s weight, afraid to touch the dead flesh, yet afraid to let go as well. Only a horse, Dany thought. If she could buy Drogo’s life with the death of a horse, she would pay a thousand times over.

Of course, a horse can't buy life for Drogo. Dany misunderstood at first, but she quickly learns.

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The Dothraki were shouting, Mirri Maz Duur wailing inside the tent like nothing human, Quaro pleading for water as he died. Dany cried out for help, but no one heard. Rakharo was fighting Haggo, arakh dancing with arakh until Jhogo’s whip cracked, loud as thunder, the lash coiling around Haggo’s throat. A yank, and the bloodrider stumbled backward, losing his feet and his sword. Rakharo sprang forward, howling, swinging his arakh down with both hands through the top of Haggo’s head. The point caught between his eyes, red and quivering. Someone threw a stone, and when Dany looked, her shoulder was torn and bloody. “No,” she wept, “no, please, stop it, it’s too high, the price is too high.” More stones came flying.


 

The price is too high, but it's not paid yet. 

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Dany turned to the godswife. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.”
“No,” Mirri Maz Duur said. “That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price.”
Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost. “The price was paid,” Dany said. “The horse, my child, Quaro and Qotho, Haggo and Cohollo. The price was paid and paid and paid.” She rose from her cushions. “Where is Khal Drogo? Show him to me, godswife, maegi, bloodmage, whatever you are. Show me Khal Drogo. Show me what I bought with my son’s life.”

There is one more price to pay: Dany kills Drogo and his funeral pyre is what wakes her dragons. It's not clear which of the deaths actually paid for the dragons' life ( Dany's sword), but there was certainly lots of blood sacrifice involved. A high price was paid.

Now here is Selyse in ASOS:

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“Lord husband,” said Queen Selyse, “you have more men than Aegon did three hundred years ago. All you lack are dragons.”
The look Stannis gave her was dark. “Nine mages crossed the sea to hatch Aegon the Third’s cache of eggs. Baelor the Blessed prayed over his for half a year. Aegon the Fourth built dragons of wood and iron. Aerion Brightflame drank wildfire to transform himself. The mages failed, King Baelor’s prayers went unanswered, the wooden dragons burned, and Prince Aerion died screaming.”
Queen Selyse was adamant. “None of these was the chosen of R’hllor. No red comet blazed across the heavens to herald their coming. None wielded Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes. And none of them paid the price. Lady Melisandre will tell you, my lord. Only death can pay for life.”


 

If we accept the dragons as a flaming sword, then Dany fits the prophecy 100%. The others really don't come close. Jon was not born amidst salt and smoke - he was born in a tower in the dry mountains of Dorne (and that's only if he is Rhaegar's son, but if he's not, then he is not of Aerys and Rhaella's line and has no link to fire at all, making him even less qualified). 

If Aegon is real and born on Dragonstone, he still missed the window of time while the star was bleeding to acquire a flaming sword. It was a short window, maybe a few weeks, at the very end of AGOT and first half of ACOK. Neither Jon nor Aegon did anything special during this time. The red star bleeding is directly linked with AA's rebirth and drawing his sword from the fire - and neither of these events, even metaphorically, happened to the other two potential Dragons in our story. Dany, on the other hand, literally woke dragons from stone the very night that the red comet appeared, after sacrificing her husband in a perfect AA parallel. 

To be honest, I never liked the idea of the dragons being the flaming sword. I know it's been around for a while, and is supported by a direct quote from Xaro:

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“When I went to the Hall of a Thousand Thrones to beg the Pureborn for your life, I said that you were no more than a child,” Xaro went on, “but Egon Emeros the Exquisite rose and said, ‘She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.’ When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” He wiped away the tears. “I should have slain you in Qarth.”

Dany fits the AA prophecy so perfectly in every other way though, that I think I've managed to convince myself that if there is indeed an AA Reborn figure in this story, it simply has to be her. We'll know for sure if her supporters start coming back to life after being killed. Which is entirely possible, given that the Red Priests support her cause, and we know they can resurrect. 

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2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood.

 

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

the visions that immediately follow have nothing to do with Stannis and even less to do with Jon.

The eyeless faces with sockets weeping blood are three men of the nine rangers that Jon sent. This was a prediction that most definitely came true. She later found Jon north of the Wall looking at the heads of Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, and Garth Greyfeather impaled on poles by the Weeper.

IMO the shadows in the shapes of skulls are a description of wights, and the skulls that turned to mist sound like white walkers. When you stab a white walker with obsidian, it dissolves into a mist, but since they disappear during daylight hours, I wonder if they can turn into mist at will also?

As for "bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky" - this one is different than the others. To me it sounds like the weeping bloody sockets was the present, the skulls were the future, and the last bit was the past circumstances that lead to the return of dragons.

Whenever Aerys burned a man, he raped Rhaella, and clawed at her with his long nails. Daenerys was the product of one of those rapes. I believe she fulfilled the princess that was promised prophecy, which I also believe indicates a Targaryen descendent that successfully hatched dragon eggs.

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

The towers are specifically said to be by the sea, not just some body of water. This is relevant because the rest of the vision brings up some major Euron imagery. The dark tide rising up is reminiscent of Bran's dream when the sea came to Winterfell, as well as Moqorro's warning of Euron "sailing on a sea of blood". 

Possibly. There is precedent for the sea to be connected to the Ironborn, but I still think it could be a reference to Westwatch. The bay that it touches opens up into the Sunset Sea.

2 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.

“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

Here is Aeron's second vision:

The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed …

The visions that Damphair had do sound similar to Melisandre's visions in the flames. I also like placing importance on Euron, because I think he will become a major character in the next book, but it is also possible that both of our interpretations are true. The original synopsis places great significance on the growing threat from the north. Melisandre said the vision applied to where the "heaviest blow" will occur. Perhaps the white walkers, wights, and Euron's men will all face off at Kings Landing? You have suggested Three Towers in Oldtown, but where is the seat of Westeros? Which castle is home to the Iron Throne? That being said there is some precedence to use Oldtown: It's where Aegon the Conqueror first visited Westeros prior to his conquest.

 

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On 6/6/2019 at 4:09 PM, alienarea said:

In my understanding the man getting sacrificed in Bran's vision is a Bran Stark and the Night's King.

A belated response, but my take on that scene was that we were witnessing a Stark being sacrificed to consecrate the heart tree, creating a blood bond with the old gods--that this is how certain human blood lines came to inherit the magic of the CotF.

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20 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The eyeless faces with sockets weeping blood are three men of the nine rangers that Jon sent. This was a prediction that most definitely came true. She later found Jon north of the Wall looking at the heads of Black Jack Bulwer, Hairy Hal, and Garth Greyfeather impaled on poles by the Weeper.

You're right, that part of the vision pertains to events at the Wall. But it still doesn't really fit with her request to see Stannis, or R'hllor's king/instrument, does it? She wants to see her king, and is shown these three eyeless dead guys. From there, she sees skulls, then the visions that I believe relate to Euron. So to repeat, she asks to see R'hllor's chosen, and he shows her 1) corpses, 2) skulls, and 3) Euron. If this is an answer to her request, then R'hllor is telling her that his chosen one is death - death and Euron. 

Euron, of course, is waiting for a new god to rise from the graves (death) and charnel pits (skulls). So it all kind of fits, and makes me excited for how scary he will end up being! 

Of course it's also possible that the flames simply don't show her what she asks for, and this is the root of the misunderstanding. Mel thinks the visions she receives are an answer to her questions, but what if they are not? They could be "random" events that she is tapping into, and misinterpreting in their meaning. This possibility is supported by the fact that Aeron saw some of the same things without asking for them. Maybe this is just what's  being shown right now, to anyone who taps into the info network regardless of method or reason. 

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO the shadows in the shapes of skulls are a description of wights, and the skulls that turned to mist sound like white walkers. When you stab a white walker with obsidian, it dissolves into a mist, but since they disappear during daylight hours, I wonder if they can turn into mist at will also?

This is certainly a valid interpretation, and may very well be true. 

But we do also have this passage from TWOIAF:

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Yet even more than the fisherman, ironborn esteem their reavers. “Wolves of the sea,” the men of the westerlands and riverlands named them in days of yore, and rightly. Like wolves, they oft hunted in packs, crossing stormy seas in their swift longships and descending on peaceful villages and towns up and down the shores of the Sunset Sea to raid, rob, and rape. Fearless sailors and fearsome fighters, they would appear out of the morning mists to do their bloody work and be back at sea before the sun had reached its zenith, their longships laden with plunder and crowded with wailing children and frightened women.

So the ironborn are also associated with appearing out of mists. 

That being said, later in that same vision she clearly sees Hardhome, so you may have the right of it on this one. 

ETA: I found another link between Euron and mists. During ADWD, he captured the Shield Islands, where he killed many people. Now look at this from TWOIAF (Iron Islands chapter):

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One by one, all the remaining footholds in the green lands were lost. The most telling blow was struck by King Garth VII, the Goldenhand, King of the Reach, when he drove the ironmen from the Misty Islands, renamed them the Shield Islands, and resettled them with his own fiercest warriors and finest seamen to defend the mouth of the Mander.

So at the time of Mel's vision (approximately), Euron was killing many people (skulls) on the Shield Islands (mist). 

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On 6/5/2019 at 2:35 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Kind of an off topic, but throwing this out for posterity...There was a line in ADWD chapter 42 where Asha hears a few comparisons between Robert and Stannis and learns that it's a sore subject. The knights were estimating that it will take them 15 days to get from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell, but only 10 days if Robert were leading them. It made me wonder if this is supposed to be a clue to help us with the Rebellion timeline?

I think it's safe to say Robert marched as fast as possible, resting only as much as he could stand to. 

But, I'm not sure we have enough details on Robert's activities during the Rebellion to do anything with this information.

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On 6/6/2019 at 5:51 AM, Direwolf Blitzer said:

What if AAR is the Dragon, with three heads? Maybe Jon AND Dany AND (f)Aegon will fulfill the prophecy. 

 

This could be a barrel of red herrings, too. Dany is most likely Targaryen, because the dragons love her (we have proof of this phenomenon in Brown Ben Plumm), but @markg171 has a masterful thread elsewhere proving (to me anyway) that she's been lied to about the circumstances of her birth.  While we don't know what this means, exactly, what if Dany is Rhaegar's daughter, and not his sister? Certainly possible. He is looking right at her when he says there must be another.

I had forgotten he claimed the Nightfort! I'm not trying to suggest he is anyone reborn, or is even a proper noun Night King. But he is, like NK, loving an unnatural woman and giving her his soul. The more I ruminate on this the more I think it will happen. 

Here's a related thread: How many people in Westeros are unnaturally alive? Coldhands, Dondarrion (RIP), Stoneheart. Maybe Mel and Moqorro. I would put Victarion on this list, too, with his weird "pork crackling" arm. (And what are the odds that Euron is skinchanging or somehow spying on the Dusky Woman; 110%?)

Can I please get a link to Markg171's post about Dany's birth? I'd love to read it.

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13 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

This is certainly a valid interpretation, and may very well be true. 

But we do also have this passage from TWOIAF:

So the ironborn are also associated with appearing out of mists. 

That being said, later in that same vision she clearly sees Hardhome, so you may have the right of it on this one. 

ETA: I found another link between Euron and mists. During ADWD, he captured the Shield Islands, where he killed many people. Now look at this from TWOIAF (Iron Islands chapter):

So at the time of Mel's vision (approximately), Euron was killing many people (skulls) on the Shield Islands (mist). 

When trying to decipher The Prophet and other titled chapters dealing with the Greyjoy’s, I noted oodles of parallels between the north, Aemon Targaryen, Bloodraven, and the Ironborn Greyjoys.

The north is described as a great sea. If the men of the Watch die north of the Wall they become like “drowned men” and are resuscitated by the cold wind - a parallel to Damphair’s drowned followers who he revives by blowing air into their lungs. Both rise harder and stronger, literally fulfilling the Greyjoy words of “what is dead can never die”

Aeron Damphair asked the men, “Was the storm raging when he (Balon) fell?” “Aye, “ a youth said…Aeron then said, ”The Storm God cast him down,”.   This is a parallel to Aerys II who was also brought down by a Storm Lord (Robert Baratheon).

These are just a few examples that demonstrate that GRRM has deliberately written dual meanings for Melisandre’s visions. They apply to current events at the Wall and to the geographical areas involving the Greyjoys. This is why I said both of our explanations are correct. Two major Targaryen family members resided at and beyond the Wall on the great northern sea, while Euron and Victarion harry the Sunset and Narrow seas. Even the vision of dragons applies to both sides, because I suspect Euron and Victarion will succeed in securing one or more of Dany's dragons.

 

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9 hours ago, Matthew. said:

For some reason or another, Melisandre decided to come westward, and unlike Thoros, it wasn't because she was sent, so what was the inciting incident? It may have been a bit of information she picked up from a traveler in Asshai, or something she read, or perhaps some incident in Volantis, but my personal inclination is that she saw something in her flames that convinced her that she was living in the era of AAR.

I tend to believe that Selyse was first in GRRM's outlines and then he realized that she needed some "fire" in her lonely life. Thus Melisandre was born. Much like Thoros is a proxy for his drinking buddy Robert, Melisandre may well be a misunderstood proxy for Selyse. And then Melisandre started growing and growing. 

So there may not be an answer why Melisandre is there. Or any details to the service time Thoros has left before he returns to Myr to get a new position. 

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15 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Something happened long ago in Asshai that threw off the season, likely long before the Long Night and the Other's.  I believe this was the ancestors of the Starks, working some dark magic to gain power over ice and the weather.  When the Children decided to create the Others, they did so by sacrificing members of this bloodline, thousands of years later.

Actually, I think that you may be partly right here, differing only as to the likely significance of the Starks.

While we're given stories about the conflict between the First Men and the Children and about bringing down the Hammer of the Waters; the Long Night and the dodgy seasons are never explained nor blame aportioned. We should perhaps take a step back so far as Westeros is concerned. Something, long ago, occurred in Asshai or even beyond Asshai, which screwed the seasons. What we have been told is how that far off event impacted on Westeros and its people - including the Starks of course, although none of them were aware of its cause, far less responsible for it.

A good analogy might be the eruptions of Krakatoa. Europe was completely oblivious to them and yet they affected the climate dramatically. I'm not suggesting that the cause on Martin's world was necessarily as straightforward, but that it wasn't necessarily connected with Westeros and its peoples and that what GRRM is writing about is how those peoples then and now are coping with the consequences of something over which they have neither knowledge nor control

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23 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Actually, I think that you may be partly right here, differing only as to the likely significance of the Starks.

While we're given stories about the conflict between the First Men and the Children and about bringing down the Hammer of the Waters; the Long Night and the dodgy seasons are never explained nor blame aportioned. We should perhaps take a step back so far as Westeros is concerned. Something, long ago, occurred in Asshai or even beyond Asshai, which screwed the seasons. What we have been told is how that far off event impacted on Westeros and its people - including the Starks of course, although none of them were aware of its cause, far less responsible for it.

A good analogy might be the eruptions of Krakatoa. Europe was completely oblivious to them and yet they affected the climate dramatically. I'm not suggesting that the cause on Martin's world was necessarily as straightforward, but that it wasn't necessarily connected with Westeros and its peoples and that what GRRM is writing about is how those peoples then and now are coping with the consequences of something over which they have neither knowledge nor control

I disagree. I think the seasons and the repeated events are clearly inspired of two outside works: the Marvel comics Dr Strange storyline with his time-controlling Eye of Agamotto, and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Both works are centered around controlling and repeating time to save mankind. GRRMs world is also utilizing a type of seasonal and repeated time control to contain a growing threat.

The only known threat is the white walkers and wights soon to be invading Westeros. Whatever happened in Essos and to the far east of Asshai isn't impacting the current story. Even the Doom is over and done - it's in the past. The present story is centered on the events of Westeros. Sure, you could look for clues as to what happened in the past in Essos, but the seasonal control is only mentioned as occurring in Westeros. We never hear comments from characters in Essos about how long the current summer has lasted or that winter is coming. Braavos is always rainy and the Dothraki sea is always summer.

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11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I disagree. I think the seasons and the repeated events are clearly inspired of two outside works: the Marvel comics Dr Strange storyline with his time-controlling Eye of Agamotto, and Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Both works are centered around controlling and repeating time to save mankind. GRRMs world is also utilizing a type of seasonal and repeated time control to contain a growing threat.

The only known threat is the white walkers and wights soon to be invading Westeros. Whatever happened in Essos and to the far east of Asshai isn't impacting the current story. Even the Doom is over and done - it's in the past. The present story is centered on the events of Westeros. Sure, you could look for clues as to what happened in the past in Essos, but the seasonal control is only mentioned as occurring in Westeros. We never hear comments from characters in Essos about how long the current summer has lasted or that winter is coming. Braavos is always rainy and the Dothraki sea is always summer.

I do see what you mean regarding the seasons in Essos. I’ve thought it odd myself. Alas, I think they must experience the seasonal changes the same as Westeros. Tyrion and Arya certainly talk about the weather and climate, but they don’t talk about how the seasons in Essos are drastically different from where they left. With the narrow sea being, well, narrow, I think we would have seen more migration from Westeros to Essos if Essos weren’t as affected by the seasonal changes. Instead, we see the latter. 

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4 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I do see what you mean regarding the seasons in Essos. I’ve thought it odd myself. Alas, I think they must experience the seasonal changes the same as Westeros. Tyrion and Arya certainly talk about the weather and climate, but they don’t talk about how the seasons in Essos are drastically different from where they left. With the narrow sea being, well, narrow, I think we would have seen more migration from Westeros to Essos if Essos weren’t as affected by the seasonal changes. Instead, we see the latter. 

The thing to remember is that the seasonal control is magical and has nothing to do with the normal rotation of Planetos nor its path around the sun, so it’s quite possible that it’s only occurring in Westeros. The rest of the world may be unaffected..

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