Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

10 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

This is an interesting point. Why was the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone and not in KL with the KING who was about to be attacked? Surely paranoid Aerys would have wanted all possible reinforcements to protect the capital with him in it. Unlike the Redwyne fleet, the Targaryen fleet wasn't even participating in a siege. They should have been at KL. 

Was this the result of another of Rhaegar's mysterious commands, like placing the KG in Dorne? You would think with his wife and children in KL, he would want to keep it safe. 

Maybe Rhaegar hid the real Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. The one's killed in King's Landing were look alikes. 

 

[Mychel_Redfort]

On 6/10/2019 at 4:40 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I too have my doubts that Daenerys was really only 14. We do have inconsistencies with dates in the books. I just posted one yesterday in a Tyrion chapter that someone noted this last summer lasted nine years while everyone else said ten. It was a weird detail that made me wonder if GRRM just made a mistake or if it was an intentional clue that has something to do with the time loops.

My possible explanation this isn't an inconsistency :

Jeor Mormont tells us "This summer has lasted nine years" in AGOT, Tyrion III
Jon tells us "This summer had lasted ten years" in AGOT, Jon VII
Cressen tells us this summer lasted "Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days" in ACOK, Prologue as it just finished.

It was still summer during AGOT, so maybe it was closer to nine years than to ten years during Tyrion III, and the opposite during Jon VII, some months later ?

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

My possible explanation this isn't an inconsistency :

Jeor Mormont tells us "This summer has lasted nine years" in AGOT, Tyrion III
Jon tells us "This summer had lasted ten years" in AGOT, Jon VII
Cressen tells us this summer lasted "Ten years, two turns, and sixteen days" in ACOK, Prologue as it just finished.

It was still summer during AGOT, so maybe it was closer to nine years than to ten years during Tyrion III, and the opposite during Jon VII, some months later ?

I guess it's possible. I had thought A Game of Thrones began in Jan 298, with A Clash of Kings beginning in Dec 298, A Storm of Swords beginning in mid 299, and Feast/Dance beginning in Jan 300. The glitch in the matrix was just a passing thought. I don't know how many chapters are between Tyrion II and Jon VII, but both seem early on in the book.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Tyrion III is Chapter 21, and Jon VII Chapter 52, for a total of 72 chapters, so Jon VII is past two-thirds of the book.

And by the way, the Purple Wedding happened on January the first 300 AC, that's the only date we know for sure, so Feast & Dance must begin later than January 300, Tyrion has spent some time in the dungeons and on trial.

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

Tyrion III is Chapter 21, and Jon VII Chapter 52, for a total of 72 chapters, so Jon VII is past two-thirds of the book.

And by the way, the Purple Wedding happened on January the first 300 AC, that's the only date we know for sure, so Feast & Dance must begin later than January 300, Tyrion has spent some time in the dungeons and on trial.

Yes, Joffrey's wedding to Margaery was the first day of the new year, but also the very near the end of A Storm of Swords. Tyrion's trial occurs at the end too. The beginning of Feast and Dance is the aftermath. I think these things all occur in January 300.

[Mychel_Redfort]

5 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, Joffrey's wedding to Margaery was the first day of the new year, but also the very end of A Storm of Swords. 

Sorry ? The Purple Wedding, Tyrion VIII, is Chapter 60 of ASOS, and there are 20 chapters and the epilogue after it.

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

Sorry ? The Purple Wedding, Tyrion VIII, is Chapter 60 of ASOS, and there are 20 chapters and the epilogue after it.

I meant time-wise with regards to what is happening. 20 chapters could be only a month's time. I'm not saying I know how long the span of time is, but it's not that long. The story is expanding in width (breadth?) more than in length of time, encompassing more detail, but happening all at the same time.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

12 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I guess it's possible. I had thought A Game of Thrones began in Jan 298, with A Clash of Kings beginning in Dec 298, A Storm of Swords beginning in mid 299, and Feast/Dance beginning in Jan 300. The glitch in the matrix was just a passing thought. I don't know how many chapters are between Tyrion II and Jon VII, but both seem early on in the book.

It's simply GRRM allowing the reader to track the passage of time. Which was at a much faster pace in Book 1. He at least started it thinking it was 1/3 of the series. 

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

It's simply GRRM allowing the reader to track the passage of time. Which was at a much faster pace in Book 1. He at least started it thinking it was 1/3 of the series. 

Asha Greyjoy is captured by Stannis and his men at Deepwood Mott in ADWD chapter 26 The Wayward Bride. By chapter 42 The Kings Prize they are just leaving Deepwood Mott and beginning the 300 mile march on Winterfell. By the end of chapter 42 they have been marching for about 30 days. The next time we read about Asha and Stannis is chapter 62 The Sacrifice. Asha thinks to herself that they had been three days from Winterfell for nineteen days. I am unsure if we should add those 19 days onto the 30 from chapter 42, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that  from chapter 26 all the way to 62 is less than two months.

[St Daga]

This thread has really been moving. Trying to catch up and am seeing some great discussion.

On 6/9/2019 at 11:46 AM, MaesterSam said:

So in other words ... there was a massive offering to the Drowned God on the night Daenerys was born? Interesting. We already know the Storm God was present as well, hence her name, Stormborn. Maybe we should start including the ironborn in our X + Y = ? theories. 

 

On 6/10/2019 at 7:11 AM, Jova Snow said:

I have  question about Daenerys, you know how she is called Stormborn and was supposed to born when a storm wrecked Dragonstone in summer time? This quote is usually used to question her identity, but during my aDWD rereading - favorite book! - I have realized we do have  mention of a storm during the rebellion! Only it's not about Dragonstone and Rhaella but about the Sisters and Ned, at the start of RR Ned tried to go White Harbor from Fingers, during a storm the Fisherman died but daughter made sure they ended up in Sisters. According to Lord Bowell Ned fathered a child with that woman. Since the Lord of Sisterton names that child as Jon the story is disregarded by the fandom, but if there was actually child born/conceived? then they will be Stormborn? Am I going crazy?  

While investigating parentage ideas for some of our characters, I have come to really wonder about Dany's "Stormborn" nickname. It's very interesting. Over the years, I have even tried to tie her parentage to Robert Baratheon. After all, Robert was the Storm Lord when she was conceived (and maybe born, depending on the time line). The Baratheon's have all the Storm imagery around them, in their nicknames, their castle, their history, since the time of Durran Godsgrief and Elenei. Also, just the fact that Robert seems to be sewing his seed will little care for what he might eventually reap over the years is interesting to me, especially in the light of Robert wanting to kill Dany. If he was her father, it would make him a kinslayer, something that is seen as pretty terrible in Westeros. I have also tried to tie Dany's nickname to the idea that GRRM is using it as a hint that Dany perhaps is a bastard, either born in the Stormlands or born of at least one parent from the Stormlands. Over the years, these little thoughts and idea's have been pretty soundly rejected, and I understand that they are pretty out there.

But, the other person who really has some "storm" imagery around him is Euron "I am the storm" Greyjoy. Of course, the Greyjoy's worship the Drowned God, who seems to be in opposition to the Storm God. But how powerful could a man be if he could harness both the Drowned and Storm Gods? The Gods of water and air! He wants to control Krakens and Dragons! Euron is working at some massive endgame, and he is also noted to have many bastards, mongrels, he calls them. He is also unafraid to use them in any way he wants, including sacrifice, so... what if he is Daenerys' father? What does he really want with her?

I am not even sure how this could work in the time line, but I think Euron is certainly old enough to be her father. I see him at least as old as Ned and Robert, perhaps a bit older, considering that he is younger than Balon (but older than Victarion), and Balon would have fathered all of his children by the time of the Harrenhal Tourney (based on Theon, his youngest, being 9-10 at the time of the Greyjoy Rebellion. Euron is also noted to be the handsomest of all of Quellon Greyjoy's sons, and handsome looks can lead to passionate encounters which can lead to children. Women seem drawn to him, even if he is creepy as shit! 

Dany herself is a bit of a storm. She can leave chaos and destruction in her wake, even if her intentions are for the best, and like many great storms, she seems to gather strength and numbers, as she grows. Like a hurricane building strength before it makes landfall! This reminds me of Euron, although his intentions are probably in no ones best interest but his own. I think Dany is truly hoping to make the world better, or at least to make life better for the people around her. 

Certainly, another way to look at the reported storm that struck Dragonstone at her birth is that the Storm God was actually trying to destroy her before she could become some great, mythical "stallion who mounts the earth" who is set to destroy live as it is known. In this vein, I have questioned that the whom ever the Fisherman's daughter was, might have been pregnant with Dany when Ned snuck her out of the Vale. The storm that nearly sunk the boat near the Sisters was meant to kill Dany at that time to. But, does this storm come from the water or the air? I vary on this thought. Much of the imagery surrounding the Fisherman's Daughter seem to point to Ashara Dayne, as I have discussed on a Davos thread on this board several years ago, and discussed with @PrettyPig on a couple occasions, and who has a nice theory on this over at The House of Black and White. (I hope I am getting that correct, sometimes I am confused on avatar's between one board and other boards). However, I am not completely sold that the Fisherman's daughter was Ashara, and I think it could have been Lyanna. But Ashara fit's better, including the symbolism around several ship's that touch on this topic, like the Sloe-Eyed Maid, the Merry Midwife, and the Storm Dancer.

Also, while I am spouting tinfoil, I will just jump right off a cliff and mention I question Dany's eye color. We are told early in our story that what she wears will "bring out" the violet in her eyes. The only reason this stands out to me is because if I wear green, then it will "bring out the green" in my bluish eyes, but most people will say I have blue eyes. But they are not really a true blue, but they are not green either. I wonder if Dany's eyes are not a true purple, nor a true blue! In her first chapter, it's a deep plum silk, and than later in that chapter, Illyrio makes a deal about how no one could deny Dany is of Valyrian decent based on her purple eyes. But... if you have purple eyes, why do you need to wear a color to bring out "the violet" in your eyes? It seems Rhaegar's eyes are a shade of indigo, which could be more blue than purple. We also have the Baratheon's with stunning blue eyes that actually might have descended from Orys Baratheon and his Valyrian lineage. Either way, I speculate that Dany's eyes are  a shade of blue that can be enhanced to purple (a la Elizabeth Tayler). and this would not be unheard of, since we have other Targaryen's who have had blue eyes, notably Good Queen Alysanne, and I don't think anyone disputes she is full-blooded Targaryen. So, deep blue is in the genetics just as much as shades of purple. So, violet eyes could tie her to Ashara as a mother, but if Dany's eyes are more blue that can be enhanced to look purple, then perhaps this open up a few other options for her parents. (disclaimer on Rhaella, as we have no physical description of her, she might actually have blue or blue-ish eyes, and Dany inherited this color from her and Dany really is Aerys and Rhaella's child)

[Brad Stark]

As much as I want to explore alternative Dany parentage theories, I have a hard time believing her father could be anyone other than Aerys or Rhaegar.  If she didn't have any Targaryen blood, I don't think she could hatch and bond her dragons. 

This and the ssm pretty much put a nail in the coffin for Ned arriving in Dorne after the siege and finding Lyanna dying while giving birth to Jon.  The timing just doesn't work. 

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga I love your observation about Daenerys' eye color, if RAD then Daenerys' could be indigo and not haunting violet though Targaryens with non-Targaryen mothers usually takes after the mother when they are the first child but we don't have a rule like that with Targaryen mothers. Daenerys wearing purple to accent her eyes while Aegon hiding his purple eyes as blue with hair color is a great contrast. 

[Melifeather]

I agree that it's important for Dany to be of Targaryen blood in order to hatch the dragons. I see no reason to doubt that she is Aerys and Rhaella's daughter, but I do struggle with believing she's as young as she thinks she is, unless the events surrounding her marriage to Drogo occurred prior to the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that it's important for Dany to be of Targaryen blood in order to hatch the dragons. I see no reason to doubt that she is Aerys and Rhaella's daughter, but I do struggle with believing she's as young as she thinks she is, unless the events surrounding her marriage to Drogo occurred prior to the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

I am not sure what her marriage date has to do with her age.  This was a political marriage and she was very young by our standards, so young the show had to make her older.

Anyhow, I want to make her younger so Jon can be born to a dying Lyanna by Ned's side.   That doesn't seem possible without making her non Targaryen.  I don't think there is any way to make a case either Aerys or Rhaegar lived longer than we think. 

I talked earlier about Ned taking an unusually long time to get from the Vale to Winterfell, and may have run another errand.  Perhaps he met Lyanna then, who made her promise, and then came back to get Jon after Lyanna was dead.

Or maybe one of the further out there theories about Jon's parentage is right.   But GRRM all but outright confirmed Lyanna is Jon's mother. 

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

As much as I want to explore alternative Dany parentage theories, I have a hard time believing her father could be anyone other than Aerys or Rhaegar.  If she didn't have any Targaryen blood, I don't think she could hatch and bond her dragons. 

 

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that it's important for Dany to be of Targaryen blood in order to hatch the dragons. I see no reason to doubt that she is Aerys and Rhaella's daughter, but I do struggle with believing she's as young as she thinks she is, unless the events surrounding her marriage to Drogo occurred prior to the beginning of A Game of Thrones.

It is hard to imagine that someone without Targaryen blood could hatch or control dragons, but we know that there were other dragon riding families in the Valyrian Freehold and some of those families sprinkled their bloodlines throughout cities like Lys and Myr and Volantis, so it's possible Dany has this blood and no Targaryen blood at all.  She could be a poor impostor implanted to believe she is a Targaryen, and people who can believe in themselves can accomplish amazing things. Sometimes I think that is where GRRM is going with this whole storyline. Sometimes I think it has to be about the blood-lines that he has placed before us as important. Stark, Targaryen, Arryn, Baratheon/Durrandon, etc. The way that Sansa is almost brainwashed to forget she is Sansa Stark and believe she is Alayne Stone make me think this could happen even with an older child. 

Dany might very well turn out to be a direct Targaryen descendant, but it seems like Rhaegar is more likely, at least to me. RAD is certainly possible! I have even toyed with the possibility of Rhaegar and Elia having a third child. Would Elia have risked her own life to carry a third child for Rhaegar? We are told that someone died giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone, but there is no hint of Rhaella ever having a difficult delivery, where as we are told one more pregnancy for Elia would mean her death. And yes, I have already been laughed at by expressing this idea, which doesn't bother me. Any constructive criticism would be great. I know it's a very cracked pot concept!

 

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I love your observation about Daenerys' eye color, if RAD then Daenerys' could be indigo and not haunting violet though Targaryens with non-Targaryen mothers usually takes after the mother when they are the first child but we don't have a rule like that with Targaryen mothers. Daenerys wearing purple to accent her eyes while Aegon hiding his purple eyes as blue with hair color is a great contrast. 

I actually like the idea that Aegon/fAegon/Young Griff is doing the very same thing, but to make him appear to not be what he thinks he is, while Dany could be trying to appear to be something she isn't. Thank you for pointing this out! Dany might very well turn out to be what the text has told us, the child of Aerys and Rhaella, but there is so much about her storyline that puts that into question. I don't want to reopen lemon-gate, but some stuff in Dany's story seems to be clues leading us toward some kind of discovery about her identity. "Remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?"-Quaithe  So enticing, so vague, so many possibilities!

Honestly, if Dany's eyes turn out to have hints of blue in them but can be enhanced to make them look violet, that seems like a great nod to Rhaegar and Ashara as Dany's parents. Dany has some star imagery that doesn't seem to fit the Targaryen's, but that could fit her Dayne past.

 

[St Daga]

7 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Or maybe one of the further out there theories about Jon's parentage is right.   But GRRM all but outright confirmed Lyanna is Jon's mother. 

Do you think that George's SSM statement about Jon and Dany being born 8 or 9 moons apart could hint to us that Lyanna could be both of their mothers. If she had a immediate turn around and got pregnant again (much like my barn cats!). I have wondered if the moon cycle phase in Planetos is 30 days, not like our own earth's 28ish day cycle. Could he be hiding something in plan sight with that SSM?

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I am not sure what her marriage date has to do with her age.  This was a political marriage and she was very young by our standards, so young the show had to make her older.

Anyhow, I want to make her younger so Jon can be born to a dying Lyanna by Ned's side.   That doesn't seem possible without making her non Targaryen.  I don't think there is any way to make a case either Aerys or Rhaegar lived longer than we think. 

I talked earlier about Ned taking an unusually long time to get from the Vale to Winterfell, and may have run another errand.  Perhaps he met Lyanna then, who made her promise, and then came back to get Jon after Lyanna was dead.

Or maybe one of the further out there theories about Jon's parentage is right.   But GRRM all but outright confirmed Lyanna is Jon's mother. 

 

I guess I saw GRRM's smile when D&D answered who they thought Jon's mother was as meaning they got it wrong. I think he'd be more pleased if they were wrong rather than guessing correctly, because he really wants to surprise the reader.

My hang-up is GRRM's comment that Dany is nine months younger than Jon. Since I believe Jon was born nine months after the Harrenhal Tourney that places his birth month into Aug 282 and Dany's birth month into May 283 - which could have happened, but then it doesn't explain how she was turning 14 while pregnant when Robb was turning 15. My brain is still kicking the details around so I hope it leads to an "aha" moment soon!

If Ashara is living at home as Wylla, then Lady Lenore very well might be Queen Rhaella. Actually her disguise as a septa would fit this theory since Aerys made Rhaella sleep with two septas in order to keep away illicit lovers. Plus there's the relevance to Aegon - she would be Young Griff's grandmother if he turns out to be the real deal.

I don't think Ned took an unusual amount of time in getting from the Vale to Winterfell. He did have the longer trek than Robert, but he may have made it home by the time the fighting in Gulltown died down, and left Winterfell right around the same time Robert was leaving Storms End. While Robert was fighting near Summerhal, Ned was making his way down to meet up with Jon Arryn. Surely there were other unnamed battles in the Riverlands to keep them occupied while Robert was marching from Summerhall, Ashford, and then Stoney Sept? The part of the Rebellion that I'd like to learn more about is the gap between Stoney Sept and the Trident, because of the retreat back north.

 

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga do you think there is a merit to fAegon? I had no problem with it at first then it become an rlj/anti-Elia fest, and it's just so complicated, Illyrio is Blackfyre, Serra is Blackfyre, Varys Brightflame, Serra and Varys are siblings etc. I think Serra is a descendant of Saera Targaryen and lost her hands to grey plague so Illyrio never kept her hands. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

The way that Sansa is almost brainwashed to forget she is Sansa Stark and believe she is Alayne Stone make me think this could happen even with an older child.

Sansa is unique in that she's become a hybrid of the First Men and of the Andals genetically, socially, and politically. She may have lost her wolf, but she's learned how to play the game of thrones from watching Cersei - so I think she's become pretty adept. What worries me more than losing her wolf however, is how excited she is for her match with Harry the Heir. If she's to become as ruthless as the game of thrones requires, she's got to put girlish fantasies behind her and focus on the political benefits.

Sansa's identity as Alayne is a parallel of Ashara. This is why I think Ashara is Wylla. They are a parallel and an inversion, because while they both have assumed different identities, Ashara stuck with her new identity, while Petyr's plan for Alayne is to reveal herself as Sansa at the right moment.

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

We are told that someone died giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone, but there is no hint of Rhaella ever having a difficult delivery, where as we are told one more pregnancy for Elia would mean her death.

I think this is a great point, but for a different reason. She gave birth to eleven children: Rhaegar, Viserys, then eight others before Daenerys. IMO those eight others were actually child sacrifices in attempts to hatch dragon eggs, but it did provide a good backstory for Rhaella to fake her own death.

I had offered the theory that Lady Lenore is actually Queen Rhaella, but the storm was actually a good reason too for causing distress in childbirth, even though Rhaella was somehow well enough to crown Viserys after learning of Aerys death.

Rhaella may have thought it safer for all of them to split up. Sadly she gave her grandson priority over her own daughter, leaving newborn Dany with Viserys and Ser Willem, and took baby Aegon away into Essos. Ser Willem explains her absence by saying she died in childbirth. 

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Dany's story seems to be clues leading us toward some kind of discovery about her identity. "Remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?"-Quaithe  So enticing, so vague, so many possibilities!

IMO Quaithe wants Dany to remember who she is so that she'll stop fiddle-fucking around in Meereen and go to Westeros, instead of being lured into turning to her dragonlord roots to force her will upon the Yunkai etc with dragonfire.

[St Daga]

28 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

do you think there is a merit to fAegon? I had no problem with it at first then it become an rlj/anti-Elia fest, and it's just so complicated, Illyrio is Blackfyre, Serra is Blackfyre, Varys Brightflame, Serra and Varys are siblings etc. I think Serra is a descendant of Saera Targaryen and lost her hands to grey plague so Illyrio never kept her hands. 

I don't have a good feel for him. Initially, I thought he was fake, probably Illyrio's child by his wife, and there was a Blackfyre connection, although at that time, I didn't know anything about Saera Targaryen. Much of my idea that he was fake was based on the idea that Jon was Rhaegar's son, and I didn't think GRRM would give us two hidden princes. Once I realized how little there was to connect Jon and Rhaegar, I looked at Young Griff like he could be the real deal, Rhaegar's heir. I have also toyed with the idea that Young Griff is just some child plucked off the street's of Lys and manipulated into thinking he was Aegon Targaryen. If this is the case, then the real Aegon could be Quentyn Martell or even Samwell Tarly. I know theories exist that make Young Aegon the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar, but that one is hard for me to conceptualize.  I see possibilities all over the place, but not one of them seems more possible than another, and they are all probably wrong.