Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[St Daga]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Sansa is unique in that she's become a hybrid of the First Men and of the Andals genetically, socially, and politically. She may have lost her wolf, but she's learned how to play the game of thrones from watching Cersei - so I think she's become pretty adapt. What worries me more than losing her wolf however, is how excited she is for her match with Harry the Heir. If she's to become as ruthless as the game of thrones requires, she's got to put girlish fantasies behind her and focus on the political benefits.

Sansa's identity as Alayne is a parallel of Ashara. This is why I think Ashara is Wylla. They are a parallel and an inversion, because while they both have assumed different identities, Ashara stuck with her new identity, while Petyr's plan for Alayne is to reveal herself as Sansa at the right moment.

The highlighted is interesting, since you are comparing Sansa and Cersei, since we know how upset Cersei was not to get her ideal match, which was Rhaegar. What might Sansa do if her match to Harry doesn't work out? Because Sansa does have some Cersei-like qualities that are very worrisome!

I too like that Wylla is a false identity, although I think she is Lyanna and not Ashara. But I can see how you come to this idea, working within your inversions. If Wylla is Ashara, then who made her assume such an identity, or did she assume it herself, as the inversion to Littlefinger actually forcing the identity of Alayne on Sansa. I have always found in interesting how Alayne and Lyanna are so similar, just syllables in different orders. A-Lay-Ne could be Lay-A-Ne, which is similar to Lyanna. Wyalla also is a bit like this. 

Arya has also assumed multiple identities, while Sansa so far has only assumed one, and one that she risks loosing herself in. Arya has never really lost who she is, in spite of multiple identity changes. Honestly, I think Wylla could work for either Lyanna or Ashara, in just depends how the theory around it works out. I don't believe Wylla was a real person, only an assumed identity for someone else. Someone important to our pre-rebellion story line.

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had offered the theory that Lady Lenore is actually Queen Rhaella, but the storm was actually a good reason too for causing distress in childbirth, even though Rhaella was somehow well enough to crown Viserys after learning of Aerys death.

Rhaella may have thought it safer for all of them to split up. Sadly she gave her grandson priority over her own daughter, leaving newborn Dany with Viserys and Ser Willem, and took baby Aegon away into Essos. Ser Willem explains her absence by saying she died in childbirth.

Rhaella may be Septa Lemore. I like the connections you make with the septa's that Aerys made her spend time with. However, I am not sold that Rhaella was pregnant at the end of the rebellion. Of course, she might have been. If she was, and Dany is her child, that would work. If she was not, and Dany is her grandchild, that would also work. And even if she chose to be with Aegon, IF he turns out to be the real deal and Rhaegar's heir, then Rhaella would have chosen to nurture the most important heir, which does make sense to me, considering the Targaryen's are trying to preserve their dynasty.

25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

57 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Dany's story seems to be clues leading us toward some kind of discovery about her identity. "Remember who you are, Daenerys. The dragons know. Do you?"-Quaithe  So enticing, so vague, so many possibilities!

IMO Quaithe wants Dany to remember who she is so that she'll stop fiddle-fucking around in Meereen and go to Westeros, instead of being lured into turning to her dragonlord roots to force her will upon the Yunkai etc with dragonfire.

As I said, there are so many possibilities for what this could mean, but the one you propose, for Dany to get her ass in gear and get to Westeros, does make sense. Except why be so vague? Why not just say "get your ass to Westeros, child". I mean, what do the dragon's really know about Dany? That she is their mother? Okay. That she is fire and blood, and not meant to plant olive trees? I can see this too. But to me, fire and blood is about conquest, not really about ruling, so what is Dany's endgame in Westeros if she is only meant to conquer and not to rule? That confuses me! Unless Dany's death is already preordained, and to make the cycle of events work, Dany needs to attempt or be succeed in conquest in Westeros and then she needs to die? Or is it all about the Other's in the end? Fire versus ice? It makes me head spin in circles, honestly!

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga I think Aegon is son of Elia and Rhaegar, that's the easiest way. Any other theory is so complex to make sense and explain within the books. I am curious about Lemore though, I identity Haldon with Walys Flowers but have no idea about Lemore. I think she is not Ashara more so after the Shena tinfoil I wrote, she is not Wenda as I identify her as Lady of Leaves, Malora makes sense but I think she is mother of Haldon and thus little bit older than what I imagine, Ashara wasn't the only Lady in Waiting for Elia and certainly not the only Dornish one among them, maybe there was someone else Elia trusted more than Ashara especially after the possibility of RAD?

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

As I said, there are so many possibilities for what this could mean, but the one you propose, for Dany to get her ass in gear and get to Westeros, does make sense. Except why be so vague? Why not just say "get your ass to Westeros, child".

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

But to me, fire and blood is about conquest, not really about ruling, so what is Dany's endgame in Westeros if she is only meant to conquer and not to rule?

Fire and blood are about magic not conquest - at least that is my takeaway. I think the reason why Drogon won't take Dany back to Meereen is because even he knows she's not a dragonlord slaver - she's the princess that was promised meant to preserve the Targaryen legacy in Westeros.

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

That confuses me! Unless Dany's death is already preordained, and to make the cycle of events work, Dany needs to attempt or be succeed in conquest in Westeros and then she needs to die? Or is it all about the Other's in the end? Fire versus ice? It makes me head spin in circles, honestly!

The irony for Dany is that she won't be able to change her destiny. She will probably die in Essos. Quaithe is trying to help Dany find her way to Westeros, because the wheel of time gave her a different set of circumstances than what they would have been had the wheel not been reset during the Harrenhal Tourney. If Dany ever figures it out, it'll probably be at the last minute when it's too late, meaning that she'll be killed before she can go to Westeros.

[Brad Stark]

GRRM said that D&D were correct when they guessed Jon's mother after the show ended.   He didn't outright say they guessed Lyanna or that is was the same in the show and books.   But I have a hard time believing they guessed someone other than Lyanna and were correct, especially if it is one of the more obscure possibilities. 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

We are told that someone died giving birth to Dany on Dragonstone, but there is no hint of Rhaella ever having a difficult delivery, where as we are told one more pregnancy for Elia would mean her death. And yes, I have already been laughed at by expressing this idea, which doesn't bother me. Any constructive criticism would be great. I know it's a very cracked pot concept!

We are told Rhaella had numerous miscarriages. 

We don't know if anyone died giving birth on Dragonstone.   If someone made up the story to explain where Rhaella went or where Dany came from, they could have made that part up.

[Melifeather]

9 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM said that D&D were correct when they guessed Jon's mother after the show ended.   He didn't outright say they guessed Lyanna or that is was the same in the show and books.   But I have a hard time believing they guessed someone other than Lyanna and were correct, especially if it is one of the more obscure possibilities. 

Oh that's right. I forgot they said they had gotten it right, but that still doesn't mean that they portrayed the correct answer on the show. 

How would Ashara be an obscure possibility? There are a number of things in the text to support her as Jon's mother.

[alienarea]

I am honestly and without any irony very impressed how devoted most of you are to speculating and analyzing the story again and again year after year.

When I spent enough time in our bathroom staring at the ornaments of the Italian floor tiles, I see faces staring back at me. But in the end, they are just ornaments on Italian floor tiles.

Since the thread is still about heresy, here's mine:

GRRM is a hack, and the books are a Frankenstein monster sewn together from short stories, standalone scenes, gore and porn. And he doesn't have enough parts left to create an end worth reading.

 

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I am honestly and without any irony very impressed how devoted most of you are to speculating and analyzing the story again and again year after year.

When I spent enough time in our bathroom staring at the ornaments of the Italian floor tiles, I see faces staring back at me. But in the end, they are just ornaments on Italian floor tiles.

Since the thread is still about heresy, here's mine:

GRRM is a hack, and the books are a Frankenstein monster sewn together from short stories, standalone scenes, gore and porn. And he doesn't have enough parts left to create an end worth reading.

 

Oh, come on now. You keep checking back to see what everyone is saying, so you must still have some interest. 

[alienarea]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh, come on now. You keep checking back to see what everyone is saying, so you must still have some interest. 

Yes, but currently I'm only interested in watching when the train jumps the tracks.

[asongofheresy]

@alienarea do you think GRRM will have an easier time if he wrote ASOIAF as novellas? I think GRRM should have a five year gap after killing Jon Snow and giving Daenerys disanteria, with Tyrion thrown into Stonemen water. I will be free of them at last. 

[alienarea]

9 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@alienarea do you think GRRM will have an easier time if he wrote ASOIAF as novellas? I think GRRM should have a five year gap after killing Jon Snow and giving Daenerys disanteria, with Tyrion thrown into Stonemen water. I will be free of them at last. 

I would have preferred Benjen to have Jon's part until the wildlings attack the wall and then get killed for good. That is more believable than Jon Snow becoming Lord Commander.

Stannis dying at the Blackwater.

If there isn't a backstory to the white walkers, make them a wildling fraction based on CotF wood dancers.

Let a giant kill a dragon.

Skip Essos. Make the Dothraki the inhabitants of Dorne.

...

[JNR]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

I am honestly and without any irony very impressed how devoted most of you are to speculating and analyzing the story again and again year after year.

When I spent enough time in our bathroom staring at the ornaments of the Italian floor tiles, I see faces staring back at me. But in the end, they are just ornaments on Italian floor tiles.

It may be that the series will never be finished, or if it is, it will suck in a broad sense. 

I wasn't too terribly impressed with AFFC, or GRRM's handling of the Meereenese Knot in general, and to this day, think he'd have done better just to let Dany keep moving west.

However, most of Heresy has been about the puzzles.  And in some cases, solutions have already been revealed to us, so we can see how carefully he set things up to yield that outcome.

For instance, in the Rolling Stone interview, he asked the interviewer this:

Quote

You’ve read the books?

Yes.

Who kills Joffrey?

And when the poor guy clearly has no idea, GRRM goes on to tell him:

Quote

In the books – and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal – the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hairnet, so that if anyone did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

He's still being evasive, but you can see the way his mind works. 

He considered himself obligated to provide enough information concerning Olenna's means, motive, and opportunity for us to conclude the boldfaced.  And he did provide it IMO, in various ways that made good logical sense.  Example: Olenna quizzes Sansa, finds out Joffrey is a monster, and thus we know Olenna's motive was very strong to save Margaery from similar treatment.  

So we do know, if we're sharp enough, that she was Littlefinger's hidden partner in crime even though the canon never says so explicitly.

I think in the end we'll find virtually all his puzzles work this way.  The solutions will not seem pulled out of somebody's ass, as they did on LOST (which is why GRRM hated it so much), or the series finale of GOT (which is why everyone hated it so much), but will instead fall into place neatly, fitting well. 

Whether we ever get the book that includes them remains to be seen, though.

[asongofheresy]

20 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I would have preferred Benjen to have Jon's part until the wildlings attack the wall and then get killed for good. That is more believable than Jon Snow becoming Lord Commander.

Stannis dying at the Blackwater.

If there isn't a backstory to the white walkers, make them a wildling fraction based on CotF wood dancers.

Let a giant kill a dragon.

Skip Essos. Make the Dothraki the inhabitants of Dorne.

...

Benjen POV would be fantastic, I think Tyrion should die during Ser Mandon Moore's attack or during the Vale business. And Essos should be focused on Qarth and the Three Sisters of Free Hold. Instead of Dorne and Iron, he could shape Reach and Riverlands, Vale and Stormlands maybe trailing after. 

[asongofheresy]

@JNR I still think it is possible the poison was in pigeon pie and Shae had a hand in the plan, Sansa was a distraction and LF needed to frame her through Shae, main target was Tyrion not Joffrey. 

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh that's right. I forgot they said they had gotten it right, but that still doesn't mean that they portrayed the correct answer on the show. 

How would Ashara be an obscure possibility? There are a number of things in the text to support her as Jon's mother.

Ashara, Wylla and the Fisherman's daughter are not obscure possibilities.   Rhealla would be an example of an obscure possibility we can rule out, the probability D&D would guess her is incredibly low, although we can't rule her (or almost anyone) out based on canon.

The show gave us Benjen as Coldhands, most likely based on its popularity as a fan theory.   I wouldn't be surprised if the show gave us something else deliberetly wrong based on another fan theory.   And show Jon was a composite of book Jon and fAegon, so even if something really will happen the same way in the books, it could happen with fAegon. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Asha Greyjoy is captured by Stannis and his men at Deepwood Mott in ADWD chapter 26 The Wayward Bride. By chapter 42 The Kings Prize they are just leaving Deepwood Mott and beginning the 300 mile march on Winterfell. By the end of chapter 42 they have been marching for about 30 days. The next time we read about Asha and Stannis is chapter 62 The Sacrifice. Asha thinks to herself that they had been three days from Winterfell for nineteen days. I am unsure if we should add those 19 days onto the 30 from chapter 42, but it doesn't really matter. The point is that  from chapter 26 all the way to 62 is less than two months.

That's Book 5 though. Book 1 was written at a much faster pace as it was started as 1/3 books. Book 5 is part of the messy aftermath of abandoning the 5 year gap and your example depicts Stannis's hellish slow march through a blizzard to Winterfell. 

Asha spends 18 days thinking they are 3 days distance from Winterfell.

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

That's Book 5 though. Book 1 was written at a much faster pace as it was started as 1/3 books. Book 5 is part of the messy aftermath of abandoning the 5 year gap and your example depicts Stannis's hellish slow march through a blizzard to Winterfell. 

Asha spends 18 days thinking they are 3 days distance from Winterfell.

The line "three days from Winterfell for nineteen days" is a quote from the chapter and yes, I know that three days is the distance. Originally they were going to march 300 miles in 15 days - that's 20 miles per day, so basically those last 19 days were 60 miles.

The story so far spans three years: 298, 299, and 300. If he planned a trilogy then he likely intended for each third to encompass one year. A Game of Thrones is part 1 and lasts one year. Clash and Storm are part 2, and Feast and Dance are part 3. IMO Storm overlaps Feast and Dance for a bit in Jan of 300.

[Melifeather]

I think Benjen is dead. If I'm right about the wildlings being the Others, then they got the whole ranging party. They only used Othor and Jafer to infiltrate and attack Mormont, but they also served a second purpose: lure the Watch into sending a search party for Benjen and the rest of the missing rangers. It worked too, because LC Jeor Mormont put together a large group which ended when they were nearly annihilated at the Fist of the First Men. This was a strategic plan to whittle the numbers of the Watch.

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhealla would be an example of an obscure possibility we can rule out, the probability D&D would guess her is incredibly low, although we can't rule her (or almost anyone) out based on canon.

The show cut out the entirety of JonCon and Young Griff therefore no introduction to Septa Lemore.

[JNR]

15 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

@JNR I still think it is possible the poison was in pigeon pie and Shae had a hand in the plan, Sansa was a distraction

Sansa was a distraction for sure.  Olenna certainly knew Sansa would be seen as a primary suspect because of how Joffrey had treated her, and that's why Sansa was also used as the unwitting means to bring the poison to the dinner.  Olenna absolutely minimized the time in which the poison would be associated with herself.

However, re the pigeon pie, do you mean only certain slices were poisoned, or the entire pie was poisoned? 

If it was slices, how were only those slices poisoned?  If it was the whole pie, why didn't everyone who ate some drop dead?

The case for the hair net doesn't have these issues.  It explains the whole, long sequence involving Ser Dontos acting as Sansa's "Florian the Fool," and Dontos' instructions to Sansa to wear the hair net the night of the wedding feast.  

And of course, there is this extremely helpful bit to tip off the attentive reader:

Quote

"You do look quite exquisite, child," Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she tottered up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown that must have weighed more than she did. "The wind has been at your hair, though." The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa's hair net.

And when we add all this up, we also see that the Ghost of High Heart predicted it:

Quote

I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs.

So GRRM really did get all his ducks in a neat row on this mystery, IMO.  It was well set up and well executed, and thus, completely unlike the sort of bullshit Benioff and Weiss came up with on their own, once the canon was exhausted.

But it isn't even one of his more impressive or complex mysteries -- it's one of the simpler ones.   And that's why he was okay about donating the answer to Rolling Stone... though he still had to play his evasive games, because that's just who he is and has always been. (We can be pretty sure he was evasive with Benioff and Weiss, too, and sadly, they didn't have the skills to set up their resolutions in anything resembling a competent manner.)