Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[asongofheresy]

42 minutes ago, JNR said:

Sansa was a distraction for sure.  Olenna certainly knew Sansa would be seen as a primary suspect because of how Joffrey had treated her, and that's why Sansa was also used as the unwitting means to bring the poison to the dinner.  Olenna absolutely minimized the time in which the poison would be associated with herself.

However, re the pigeon pie, do you mean only certain slices were poisoned, or the entire pie was poisoned? 

If it was slices, how were only those slices poisoned?  If it was the whole pie, why didn't everyone who ate some drop dead?

The case for the hair net doesn't have these issues.  It explains the whole, long sequence involving Ser Dontos acting as Sansa's "Florian the Fool," and Dontos' instructions to Sansa to wear the hair net the night of the wedding feast.  

And of course, there is this extremely helpful bit to tip off the attentive reader:

And when we add all this up, we also see that the Ghost of High Heart predicted it:

So GRRM really did get all his ducks in a neat row on this mystery, IMO.  It was well set up and well executed, and thus, completely unlike the sort of bullshit Benioff and Weiss came up with on their own, once the canon was exhausted.

But it isn't even one of his more impressive or complex mysteries -- it's one of the simpler ones.   And that's why he was okay about donating the answer to Rolling Stone... though he still had to play his evasive games, because that's just who he is and has always been. (We can be pretty sure he was evasive with Benioff and Weiss, too, and sadly, they didn't have the skills to set up their resolutions in anything resembling a competent manner.)

Not the pie itself but the lemon creme maybe? I think Tyrells needed Tyrion out  the picture, along with LF, not Joffrey because they could manipulate Joffrey through Margaery and Loras but they needed Sansa for North. 

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Not the pie itself but the lemon creme maybe? I think Tyrells needed Tyrion out  the picture, along with LF, not Joffrey because they could manipulate Joffrey through Margaery and Loras but they needed Sansa for North. 

I don't think the Tyrells could give two shits about Sansa. They made her promises, but they were only pumping her for information.

Why do you doubt the purple jewels were the poison? The poison used was called "the strangler" and it looks like a purple crystal:

Quote

Clash of Kings - Prologue

The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death. It was made from a certain plant that grew only on the islands of the Jade Sea, half a world away. The leaves had to be aged, and soaked in a wash of limes and sugar water and certain rare spices from the Summer Isles. Afterward they could be discarded, but the potion must be thickened with ash and allowed to crystallize. The process was slow and difficult, the necessaries costly and hard to acquire. The alchemists of Lys knew the way of it, though, and the Faceless Men of Braavos . . . and the maesters of his order as well, though it was not something talked about beyond the walls of the Citadel. All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill.

Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

 

[asongofheresy]

@Feather Crystal it's simply because I am biased to Tyrells. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

I'd just like to point out that GRRM never confirms Lyanna is Jon's mother in Book Canon. 

We have this from D&D:

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4

This from GRRM:

 It is hard to believe it is over, if truth be told.   The years have gone past in the blink of an eye.  Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner?  I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was.   Fortunately, they did.

All this confirms is that GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was and they gave the correct answer. This does not mean that it confirms Lyanna as book canon as Jon's mother, it doesn't even mention her name. Do we need to list all the known differences between the show and the books? Just because Lyanna is Jon's mother in the Show, doesn't mean it is 100% certain she will be in the Book. 

It also doesn't confirm RLJ. The father is never mentioned, neither is Rhaegar's name. 

I felt the need to point these two facts out as it seems most people all over the internet mistakenly take it for granted that GRRM both confirmed Lyanna as Jon's mother and confirmed RLJ. Neither is true.

Regardless of the theory, ASOIAF theory crafters should do their best to base their theories as solidly in Book Canon as possible. Otherwise all they're doing is putting duct tape on a snowman.
 

[alienarea]

15 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'd just like to point out that GRRM never confirms Lyanna is Jon's mother in Book Canon. 

We have this from D&D:

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4

This from GRRM:

 

 

All this confirms is that GRRM asked D&D who Jon's mother was and they gave the correct answer. This does not mean that it confirms Lyanna as book canon as Jon's mother, it doesn't even mention her name. Do we need to list all the known differences between the show and the books? Just because Lyanna is Jon's mother in the Show, doesn't mean it is 100% certain she will be in the Book. 

It also doesn't confirm RLJ. The father is never mentioned, neither is Rhaegar's name. 

I felt the need to point these two facts out as it seems most people all over the internet mistakenly take it for granted that GRRM both confirmed Lyanna as Jon's mother and confirmed RLJ. Neither is true.

Regardless of the theory, ASOIAF theory crafters should do their best to base their theories as solidly in Book Canon as possible. Otherwise all they're doing is putting duct tape on a snowman.
 

In theory you are right. But, if they had answered, for example, Ashara Dayne and it were true, why would they change it to Lyanna in the show?

You could answer because they cut Ashara and never named Dawn and so on, but then I were to reply that if they were moving away from the books suggested ending they could have cut Bran and go for a better ending.

I do not like Lyanna as Jon's mother at all and argued against it for years, but unfortunately it is true.

Rhaegar, however, is a different cup of ... coffee ;)

Thank you, Robert Baratheon, for slaying the emo prince. And if your best friend hadn't been utterly stupid, he would have told you about Cersei and followed up with killing Daenerys and KL would still be untorched.

[Brad Stark]

This is why I said GRRM all but confirmed it was Lyanna.   

D&D changed Coldhands to Benjen, likely knowing that wasn't true. 

We don't know who fAegon's mother was.  It is unlikely it is Lyanna.   But his absence from the show means some of his plot transfers to Jon.

[Melifeather]

Do we need to start a list of all the things that got changed on the show to emphasize what Lord Aegon the Compromiser just said? Do you believe Benjen is Coldhands? Or that Jon was named Aegon? Or that there's a leader of the white walkers called the Nights King and all you have to do is kill him and they all disappear? Or that Rhaegal becomes an ice dragon? Dragons can't fly over the Wall!

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do we need to start a list of all the things that got changed on the show to emphasize what Lord Aegon the Compromiser just said? Do you believe Benjen is Coldhands? Or that Jon was named Aegon? Or that there's a leader of the white walkers called the Nights King and all you have to do is kill him and they all disappear? Or that Rhaegal becomes an ice dragon? Dragons can't fly over the Wall!

That is all true, and I don't defend neither the show nor its writers, but GRRM had enough time to clear up some of it.

[JNR]

9 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

most people all over the internet mistakenly take it for granted that GRRM both confirmed Lyanna as Jon's mother and confirmed RLJ. Neither is true.

Regardless of the theory, ASOIAF theory crafters should do their best to base their theories as solidly in Book Canon as possible.

You've certainly wound up in the right forum. 

The same points you make above, I've been making almost seven years now. 

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

But, if they had answered, for example, Ashara Dayne and it were true, why would they change it to Lyanna in the show?

It's a fair question, but it's hard to guess why they smashed the canon in any of the ways we know they did.  

Take the question of how Westeros gets a new king.  D&D echoed the canon for years and years -- that it happens via claim-driven succession.  As late as the first episode of season eight, Sam told Jon right to his face that Jon was and had always been the true king of Westeros for this exact reason: Jon had the best claim.

And then, in a completely arbitrary break with both canon and their own overwhelming precedent, D&D gave us that finale, with its bizarrely unfunny skit in which the various nobles voted to pick Bran as their king, knowing Bran had no claim of any sort.  So what D&D choose to do just seems irrational to me at times.

9 hours ago, alienarea said:

I do not like Lyanna as Jon's mother at all and argued against it for years, but unfortunately it is true.

She's a strong candidate, no doubt.

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know who fAegon's mother was.  It is unlikely it is Lyanna.   But his absence from the show means some of his plot transfers to Jon.

Do you mean D&D took Book Aegon's plot and assigned some of it to Show Jon?

I think what they did was much simpler: they just deleted Book Aegon's storyline. 

Then they made up a storyline for Show Jon that had little/nothing to do with past or future books (other than that D&D foolishly decided Show Jon's real name was Aegon). 

[asongofheresy]

@alienarea you're right maybe he should release TWOW in two parts like ADWD instead, maybe even break ADWD to three so TWOW sample chapters would be released as well. One that focuses on North and the Wall, one focuses on southern Westeros plots and another just for Essos? 

@JNR why do you think D&D deleted Aegon plot when we had Jorah with Greyscale, Golden Company with Cersei, Aegon and Daenerys conflict? I think D&D didn't wanted Aegon, much like fandom, only to realize it was impossible without him. 

[JNR]

11 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

@JNR why do you think D&D deleted Aegon plot when we had Jorah with Greyscale, Golden Company with Cersei, Aegon and Daenerys conflict?

Well, it's quite simple. 

In the books, Aegon spent his life going up and down the Rhoyne for many years, and then in ADWD, invaded Griffin's Roost and Storm's End with the Golden Company backing him.  That's the sum total of his storyline so far.

But in the show, no one does either of these things -- not Jon or anyone else.  

Furthermore, all the characters from Book Aegon's life are simply deleted.  There is no Septa Lemore, no Haldane, no Jon Connington, no Rolly, no Ysilla etc., etc.   All gone with the wind.

We can guess how the books will likely go, but that doesn't seem to suggest Show Jon was Book Aegon either.

For instance, if in the next book Aegon and Dany get into serious conflict over the Iron Throne, that will be completely different from what happened on the show... in which Jon met Dany and immediately bent the knee.  Then Dany turned around, and, still kneeling, Jon kissed her ass.  And then he went on kissing her ass for two straight seasons.   I'd be quite surprised if Book Aegon does anything remotely along such lines.

In fact, Show Jon was strongly determined never to rule Westeros. He must have said he didn't want to be king ten different times, and indeed, he never was king.  What happens to Book Aegon, though?  We'll find out... (JNR said, hoping it was true and suspecting it wasn't).

[Melifeather]

The show also never properly released Jon from the Watch. He was resurrected. Does that mean his oath to the Nights Watch ended when he died? When he was resurrected, why didn't he remain as the Lord Commander? In the books, Edd Tollett is sent to Long Barrow with a bunch of spearwives to reopen that castle. Satin replaced Edd and would be second in command.

[St Daga]

On 6/12/2019 at 2:07 PM, Jova Snow said:

I think Aegon is son of Elia and Rhaegar, that's the easiest way. Any other theory is so complex to make sense and explain within the books.

It's easiest in some ways, because it doesn't require as much speculation and weaving of possible motivations. Some of the fact that he isn't introduced until the fifth book holds me back from trusting. Although, if he always existed in GRRM's mind, then I suppose he would be introduced some where in the second book of the original trilogy, which could be possible. Young Griff's certainty of who he is reminds me of Dany's certainty of who she is, and I doubt that she really is the child of both Rhaella and Aerys. I could be very wrong about that, however. Young Griff/Aegon could very well be exactly who he thinks he is.

 

On 6/12/2019 at 2:39 PM, Brad Stark said:

We are told Rhaella had numerous miscarriages. 

We don't know if anyone died giving birth on Dragonstone.   If someone made up the story to explain where Rhaella went or where Dany came from, they could have made that part up.

It the sense of being told about miscarriages, this is really no different than being told a woman died giving birth on Dragonstone, or that Dany was the child that was born there. These are all things we have been told and all if it might be incorrect. And I standby a major difference in a miscarriage resulting in the death of a child with no threat to the mother's health (with some blood loss than can happen in a successful labor), and a miscarriage that risks the health of the mother. Even if we are told that Rhaella had multiple miscarriages, we are never given the impression that her health was in danger or that there was a rest period for her between attempted pregnancies. We are told that about Elia. But again, all of this information might not be what happened in reality. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

You've certainly wound up in the right forum. 

The same points you make above, I've been making almost seven years now. 

It's a fair question, but it's hard to guess why they smashed the canon in any of the ways we know they did.  

Take the question of how Westeros gets a new king.  D&D echoed the canon for years and years -- that it happens via claim-driven succession.  As late as the first episode of season eight, Sam told Jon right to his face that Jon was and had always been the true king of Westeros for this exact reason: Jon had the best claim.

And then, in a completely arbitrary break with both canon and their own overwhelming precedent, D&D gave us that finale, with its bizarrely unfunny skit in which the various nobles voted to pick Bran as their king, knowing Bran had no claim of any sort.  So what D&D choose to do just seems irrational to me at times.

She's a strong candidate, no doubt.

Do you mean D&D took Book Aegon's plot and assigned some of it to Show Jon?

I think what they did was much simpler: they just deleted Book Aegon's storyline. 

Then they made up a storyline for Show Jon that had little/nothing to do with past or future books (other than that D&D foolishly decided Show Jon's real name was Aegon). 

Show Rhaegar must have been trying to one up his ancestors. I'm the father of TWO Aegons!

[asongofheresy]

@JNR you're right D&D deleted most but I would say not all of Aegon plot was excluded, we had Jorah and Tyrion in Volantis with Stonemen when in reality we should have them in Rhoyne and Selhorys, we had Golden Company coming to Westeros for Cersei with  man leading them looking more like Aegon than Harry Strickland, we also had Daenerys seeing her nephew Aegon as rivals when she didn't had any problems with Jon. 

@St Daga I would say Aegon will be son of Rhaegar and Elia since his ruined skull was emphasized in text. I could see TTP or Daario as Blackfyres

 

[Matthew.]

11 hours ago, alienarea said:

In theory you are right. But, if they had answered, for example, Ashara Dayne and it were true, why would they change it to Lyanna in the show?

You could answer because they cut Ashara and never named Dawn and so on, but then I were to reply that if they were moving away from the books suggested ending they could have cut Bran and go for a better ending.

I do not like Lyanna as Jon's mother at all and argued against it for years, but unfortunately it is true.

Rhaegar, however, is a different cup of ... coffee

I would have to agree; broadly speaking, it's possible that they answered that someone else was Jon's mother, and decided to do Lyanna anyway, but that feels unlikely. The conversation about Jon's mother happened in 2006, five years before Season 1, and ten years before Show Jon's mother is revealed--that's ample time to plan for establishing House Dayne (or Wylla, or whomever else) if any of those alternatives were the "real" answer.

In theory, GRRM could be doing some kind of anti-climactic non-reveal ("Parentage mystery? What do you mean? Weren't you paying attention when Eddard and Robert have that conversation about Wylla?") that is meant to play upon the reader's impulse to search for mysteries and patterns where they don't actually exist--and that D&D, in turn, didn't like that idea and decided to do Lyanna as Jon's mother, but that still feels untrue to me. If anything, D&D's impulse for changes trends toward removing anything that requires flashbacks, establishing additional history and lore, and budgeting for new characters and locations, all of which had to be done for Lyanna.

Though, as you say, none of that necessarily tells us anything about Jon's father--only that they had a conversation with GRRM about Jon's mother.

[St Daga]

On 6/12/2019 at 2:08 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Fire and blood are about magic not conquest - at least that is my takeaway. I think the reason why Drogon won't take Dany back to Meereen is because even he knows she's not a dragonlord slaver - she's the princess that was promised meant to preserve the Targaryen legacy in Westeros.

I guess I question whether the Targaryen legacy in Westeros is meant to be preserved. It seems like we have several Targaryen's who want to produce the PtwP, while we have several who do not, Baelor I and Aerys I, who seem determined not to have children. It is possible that Drogon doesn't want to take Dany back to Meereen because he senses the danger for her in that city, but he's not trying to take her back to Westeros, either. Just a little dragon nest in the Dothraki Sea.

 

On 6/12/2019 at 2:08 PM, Feather Crystal said:

The irony for Dany is that she won't be able to change her destiny. She will probably die in Essos. Quaithe is trying to help Dany find her way to Westeros, because the wheel of time gave her a different set of circumstances than what they would have been had the wheel not been reset during the Harrenhal Tourney. If Dany ever figures it out, it'll probably be at the last minute when it's too late, meaning that she'll be killed before she can go to Westeros.

If Dany never makes it to Westeros, what is the Dance of the Dragon's 2.0 that GRRM seems to be hinting at? Honestly, I have wondered if Dany is ever going to get her ass to Westeros, but I do think that is the intent of the author. He even talks about her and her dragons and Dothraki as a great threat (like the Other's) in his 1993 outline.

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I guess I question whether the Targaryen legacy in Westeros is meant to be preserved. It seems like we have several Targaryen's who want to produce the PtwP, while we have several who do not, Baelor I and Aerys I, who seem determined not to have children. It is possible that Drogon doesn't want to take Dany back to Meereen because he senses the danger for her in that city, but he's not trying to take her back to Westeros, either. Just a little dragon nest in the Dothraki Sea.

 

If Dany never makes it to Westeros, what is the Dance of the Dragon's 2.0 that GRRM seems to be hinting at? Honestly, I have wondered if Dany is ever going to get her ass to Westeros, but I do think that is the intent of the author. He even talks about her and her dragons and Dothraki as a great threat (like the Other's) in his 1993 outline.

The Dance of the Dragons 2.0 will be Young Griff and the Greyjoy Bros w/dragons.

[Brad Stark]

The past war between blacks and greens was "The Dance of the Dragons".   The book is titled "A Dance with Dragons".

I don't doubt this book title was a reference to the war.  But I think the slightly different wording is evidence against the popular theory that the book was supposed to be about another war between Targaryens, like fAegon and Dany, and that the actual battle the book was named for hasn't happened yet.

[Melifeather]

GRRMs short story The Princess and the Queen actually details the Dance of the Dragons. It features the elder daughter (Rhaenyra) fighting over the line of succession against her younger half-brother Aegon II, who initially wasn't expecting to inherit and didn't even really want it until his mother convinced him he had the better claim.

Rhaenyra and Aegon II had the same father, but different mothers. I have noticed that GRRM has featured several elder daughters passed over in favor of a  younger son as heirs to their family's seat. It's actually Cersei's main motivation of "who" she is. She's got a big chip on her shoulder with regards to Casterly Rock, and Tywin tried to placate her by making her a queen. Then there's Arianne who nearly started a war, because she was worried her father was going to pass over her inheritance to her younger brother Quentyn. I'd like to see GRRM flip the medieval mysogyny on its head and replace every seat of power with a woman. If he does that we'll have a Queen on the Iron Throne and a Queen in the North. 

I can see Daenerys and Young Griff reprising the roles of Rhaenyra and Aegon, especially if it turns out they too share Aerys as a father, but have different mothers. Is it possible Aerys raped Elia? Probably not. That seems far fetched. But I wouldn't be the first to wonder if Rhaegar was actually Daenerys father too. The inversion would be the younger daughter (Dany) taking the line of succession away from the elder brother (Young Griff).