Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[alienarea]

Why did they give Greyscale to Jorah? To give Sam something to do, I guess?

On the other (no pun) hand, GRRM  could write TWoW with Jon just being wounded, not resurrected, and give his Season 8 storyline minus the exile to fAegon. And have Lady Stoneheart dealing with the Freys and Arya sail to Westworld right away.

 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Why did they give Greyscale to Jorah? To give Sam something to do, I guess?

On the other (no pun) hand, GRRM  could write TWoW with Jon just being wounded, not resurrected, and give his Season 8 storyline minus the exile to fAegon. And have Lady Stoneheart dealing with the Freys and Arya sail to Westworld right away.

 

Doesn't Jon Connington have greyscale in the books? Maybe some of JonCon's story got morphed into Jorah's on the show.

As for Arya sailing to Westworld....that would be interesting!

[Black Crow]

As those of you who have been around for a while will know I prefer to keep things simple and above all grounded. What's important here is not to get confused by the Mummers' version.

GRRM has basically confirmed the identity of Jon Snow's mother and there really isn't much mileage in looking at multiple candidates. What's important is the emphasis on "mother", which confirms what we miserable heretics have long argued; that she, not a parvenu Targaryen prince is important.

Then we have the outcomes, or at least some of them. He revealed who will become High King, [and its not Jon], and as to the principal characters, who lives and who dies in the end, but obviously told nothing as to how those outcomes came about and in particular how Bendigeidfran, the blessed crow, became high king  

Young Griff/Aegon doesn't feature, simply because his outcome wasn't revealed and the whole mystery of his identity and his backers hasn't been touched in the books. The Mummers had absolutely nothing to base a story on and in any case what we do have is a complication in introducing another Targaryen pretender. Its a complication they could do without and in all honesty one that GRRM could probably have done without.

Returning to Jon Snow here we have another gaping hole in the story. We last saw him bleeding out in the yard at Castle Black, yet he makes it to the end, but doesn't make High King far less sit on the Iron Throne, so the anguish among the R+L=J believers and their futile speculation as to his "real" or "Targaryen" name is a bit sad and akin to sticking their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la...

That's gone and so too is what I suspect is Jon's real purpose, never revealed to the Mummers' and that's to weave the real magic into the story. Instead of the lame return of the King and the Azor Ahai role predicted by the R+L=J believers, and dashed by that final season of the mummers' farce, what I predict we will find through Jon if GRRM ever gets around to publishing the story, is the reveal anent the Stark connection to Winter and the magic beyond the Wall which is why we got the outcome we did

And just a final thought. I'm not convinced by this time travel malarkey, other than seeing visions of what was and what might be, but if it is physically possible, what of Coldhands? Anne Groell was told he's not Benjen, but could he be Jon?

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Doesn't Jon Connington have greyscale in the books? Maybe some of JonCon's story got morphed into Jorah's on the show.

 

He does 

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has basically confirmed the identity of Jon Snow's mother and there really isn't much mileage in looking at multiple candidates. What's important is the emphasis on "mother", which confirms what we miserable heretics have long argued; that she, not a parvenu Targaryen prince is important.

la-la-la-la-la-la-laaa, lol, sorry! I'm holding onto my theory that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara and that the show completely changed everything after meeting with George and went to the forums for ideas on how to end their story.

[Matthew.]

15 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Young Griff/Aegon doesn't feature, simply because his outcome wasn't revealed and the whole mystery of his identity and his backers hasn't been touched in the books. The Mummers had absolutely nothing to base a story on and in any case what we do have is a complication in introducing another Targaryen pretender. Its a complication they could do without and in all honesty one that GRRM could probably have done without.

Young Griff seems important for the tone GRRM wants to set for Dany's invasion. She's supposed to represent Targaryen restoration, but instead, she's beaten to the punch by someone with a better claim; not only does she not have the better claim, but she's coming west with dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, and (presumably) Tyrion--so she's not merely invading to press an inferior claim, but she's doing it with allies that are sure to make her widely reviled.

Of course, what might follow on that thought is "if Young Griff is necessary for GRRM's plans for Dany's invasion arc, he should have gone back to the drawing board and developed an arc that doesn't demand so many extra characters and subplots."

[Gerg Sknab]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

la-la-la-la-la-la-laaa, lol, sorry! I'm holding onto my theory that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara and that the show completely changed everything after meeting with George and went to the forums for ideas on how to end their story.

If you're going to insist Ashara is Jon ToJ's mother how do you explain the fact she threw herself and her miscarried daughter (not son) off the parapets at Starfall, how do you explain the fact Ashara was disrespected at Harrenhall supposedly by either Brandon or Oberon not Eddard.

[Matthew.]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

la-la-la-la-la-la-laaa, lol, sorry! I'm holding onto my theory that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara and that the show completely changed everything after meeting with George and went to the forums for ideas on how to end their story.

This is certainly what I wish were true; I like Eddard as Jon's father (and the idea of Eddard and Ashara engaging in a courtship that began at Harrenhal, which might be true even if they aren't Jon's parents) as a narrative, and I think it's more important to have a good narrative than some gimmicky mystery, I'm just feeling pessimistic about that prospect. Of course, D&D were clearly comfortable with changing all sorts of things before they ran out of material to adapt, so who knows. 

[Black Crow]

6 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Young Griff seems important for the tone GRRM wants to set for Dany's invasion. She's supposed to represent Targaryen restoration, but instead, she's beaten to the punch by someone with a better claim; not only does she not have the better claim, but she's coming west with dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied, and (presumably) Tyrion--so she's not merely invading to press an inferior claim, but she's doing it with allies that are sure to make her widely reviled.

Of course, what might follow on that thought is "if Young Griff is necessary for GRRM's plans for Dany's invasion arc, he should have gone back to the drawing board and developed an arc that doesn't demand so many extra characters and subplots."

I'll agree with that, but what I was referencing was the likely reason for the Mummers cutting him out of their lite version

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

This is certainly what I wish were true; I like Eddard as Jon's father (and the idea of Eddard and Ashara engaging in a courtship that began at Harrenhal, which might be true even if they aren't Jon's parents) as a narrative, and I think it's more important to have a good narrative than some gimmicky mystery, I'm just feeling pessimistic about that prospect. Of course, D&D were clearly comfortable with changing all sorts of things before they ran out of material to adapt, so who knows. 

I'll not deny Ashara is an attractive possibility, but I feel that Lyanna fits better with the outcome as revealed by GRRM

[asongofheresy]

@Matthew. I believe Ashara had a living daughter Allyria with Ned that's why she knows Ashara and Ned were in love. As for Jon, I am a miserable heretic that thinks he is really Eddard's bastard with Fisherman's daughter or Lyanna for now. 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Or that Jon was named Aegon?

No, of course not, he's Aemon.

Quote

The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont. Nor was he Aemon Targaryen

(Jon IX, aGoT)

 

[Melifeather]

37 minutes ago, Gerg Sknab said:

If you're going to insist Ashara is Jon ToJ's mother how do you explain the fact she threw herself and her miscarried daughter (not son) off the parapets at Starfall, how do you explain the fact Ashara was disrespected at Harrenhall supposedly by either Brandon or Oberon not Eddard.

Hello newbie! lol, ah, I think the old hands already know my theories, but I'll try to catch you up to speed...

First of all, most of my theories are developed from the belief that the titled chapters beginning in Feast actually tell two stories. One of them is hidden among the parallels, metaphors, and symbolism. There's a small bit in the Cat of the Canals chapter that seems to imply that Robert Baratheon tried to force himself upon Ashara, but that Ned stepped in and stopped it. Ned became Ashara's hero and a romance blossomed from there. To get a more detailed explanation click here.

Sansa is retracing Ashara's steps after leaving Kings Landing. Petyr Baelish (Bael-like) is pretending to be Sansa's father. Sansa as Alayne went to live at her "father's" home in the Stepstones then moved to the Eyrie when her "father" became Lord Protector of the Eyrie. Lastly, she's raising her "half-brother" Robin Arryn. I theorize that we can sort out a similar story for Ashara.

Ashara left Kings Landing right about the time Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon. She feared people would soon notice her growing belly and draw suspicion that she was carrying a Stark bastard, so she left Kings Landing by ship just like Sansa and went looking to Ned in the Eyrie. She travelled with Ned across the Bite and was the identity of both Wylla and the Fisherman's Daughter. Ned brought Ashara home as Wylla and told the servants that she was Jon's wet-nurse. I believe he refrained from marrying her until he could broker a marriage alliance with the Dayne's, but since they were on opposite sides of the Rebellion, it wouldn't have been possible until after the war. Ashara was raising Ned's son under an assumed identity similar to how Sansa was raising Petyr's son by marriage (Robin).

After Ned married Catelyn out of political necessity, Ashara was forced to leave Jon at Winterfell, and she returned to Starfall. This is a premonition for Sansa. She too will be forced to leave the Eyrie and return to Winterfell.

Lysa tried to push Sansa out the Moon Door, but got pushed out herself instead by her husband. In Ashara's instance, her baby-daddy (Ned) helped "Wylla" push "someone" dressed in Ashara's clothing off the Palestone Tower after Ned arrived with Arthur's sword. Since we're dealing with inversions I'm leaning towards the body as being an uncle to Jon versus an aunt to Sansa. Edric Dayne said he's the child of Arthur's older brother and that Wylla was his nursemaid, so Wylla (Ashara) raised her own nephew, but remained living at home as Wylla.

Lastly, I think Edric Dayne's father was "Bael-like" in that he really wasn't Arthur's older brother. I'd like his father to also be Ned - conceived when Ned went to Starfall, but alas he's just a little too young to be Ned's.

[Gerg Sknab]

22 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Hello newbie! lol, ah, I think the old hands already know my theories, but I'll try to catch you up to speed...

First of all, most of my theories are developed from the belief that the titled chapters beginning in Feast actually tell two stories. One of them is hidden among the parallels, metaphors, and symbolism. There's a small bit in the Cat of the Canals chapter that seems to imply that Robert Baratheon tried to force himself upon Ashara, but that Ned stepped in and stopped it. Ned became Ashara's hero and a romance blossomed from there. To get a more detailed explanation click here.

Sansa is retracing Ashara's steps after leaving Kings Landing. Petyr Baelish (Bael-like) is pretending to be Sansa's father. Sansa as Alayne went to live at her "father's" home in the Stepstones then moved to the Eyrie when her "father" became Lord Protector of the Eyrie. Lastly, she's raising her "half-brother" Robin Arryn. I theorize that we can sort out a similar story for Ashara.

Ashara left Kings Landing right about the time Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon. She feared people would soon notice her growing belly and draw suspicion that she was carrying a Stark bastard, so she left Kings Landing by ship just like Sansa and went looking to Ned in the Eyrie. She travelled with Ned across the Bite and was the identity of both Wylla and the Fisherman's Daughter. Ned brought Ashara home as Wylla and told the servants that she was Jon's wet-nurse. I believe he refrained from marrying her until he could broker a marriage alliance with the Dayne's, but since they were on opposite sides of the Rebellion, it wouldn't have been possible until after the war. Ashara was raising Ned's son under an assumed identity similar to how Sansa was raising Petyr's son by marriage (Robin).

After Ned married Catelyn out of political necessity, Ashara was forced to leave Jon at Winterfell, and she returned to Starfall. This is a premonition for Sansa. She too will be forced to leave the Eyrie and return to Winterfell.

Lysa tried to push Sansa out the Moon Door, but got pushed out herself instead by her husband. In Ashara's instance, her baby-daddy (Ned) helped "Wylla" push "someone" dressed in Ashara's clothing off the Palestone Tower after Ned arrived with Arthur's sword. Since we're dealing with inversions I'm leaning towards the body as being an uncle to Jon versus an aunt to Sansa. Edric Dayne said he's the child of Arthur's older brother and that Wylla was his nursemaid, so Wylla (Ashara) raised her own nephew, but remained living at home as Wylla.

Lastly, I think Edric Dayne's father was "Bael-like" in that he really wasn't Arthur's older brother. I'd like his father to also be Ned - conceived when Ned went to Starfall, but alas he's just a little too young to be Ned's.

So you're saying that Ashara is quickening and left Kings Landing of her own volition prior to John Arryn refusing to present Eddard and Robert there? Kinda goes against Selmy's version doesn't it. So in your Jon must have been when Ned called his Banners or slightly thereafter meaning that Jon is close to a year older than Robb

[Melifeather]

13 minutes ago, Gerg Sknab said:

So you're saying that Ashara is quickening and left Kings Landing of her own volition prior to John Arryn refusing to present Eddard and Robert there? Kinda goes against Selmy's version doesn't it. So in your Jon must have been when Ned called his Banners or slightly thereafter meaning that Jon is close to a year older than Robb

I think Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal Tourney and was born nine months later in Aug 282. I think Arthur helped his sister escape Kings Landing which is a parallel to when Sandor offered to help Sansa escape. When Sansa finally does leave with Dontos help and gets on Petyr's ship, it's a parallel to when Ned and Ashara crossed the Bite. Dontos died just like the Fisherman did.

I suspect the Rebellion timeline is a lot tighter than many would imagine. I believe the tourney occurred late Nov or early Dec 281 and that Lyanna went missing in Jan 282. Brandon arrived in Kings Landing a few weeks later, and Rickard summoned. The "trial" was in Feb 282 and Jon Arryn raised his banners late Feb 282. I think Ned and Catelyn married in June or July 282 with the Battle of the Bells two weeks later, and the Sack in Jan 283.

Jon is older than Robb, but Ned lied about his name day and made sure it came after Robb's in an attempt to placate Catelyn. Robb's birth month is April, so Jon is actually 8 months older. Growing up Jon was always smaller than Robb, but obviously ahead in development and that is why he was always better at everything.

[JNR]

I enjoyed this far too much not to pass it along.  Well done.

Although I doubt the season eight finale script took anywhere near six days to write.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has basically confirmed the identity of Jon Snow's mother and there really isn't much mileage in looking at multiple candidates. What's important is the emphasis on "mother", which confirms what we miserable heretics have long argued; that she, not a parvenu Targaryen prince is important.

Then we have the outcomes, or at least some of them. He revealed who will become High King, [and its not Jon], and as to the principal characters, who lives and who dies in the end

Well, really, GRRM has never said anything along the boldfaced lines, and D&D haven't either.  It's only speculation on your part. 

I'd bet serious money that GRRM is not going to have a bunch of nobles vote to make Bran king.  And just like Show Bran, Book Bran has no conceivable claim to be King of Westeros, either.

As for character survival being consistent, that's a doubtful matter too.   GRRM's taken the time to write out explicit lists of Live vs Dead Characters several times specifically to make the point that Show World ≠ Book World.  We know the show has gone down a different road numerous times in this area, simply because D&D felt like it. 

As to the identity of Jon's mother, it really just doesn't matter that D&D correctly guessed her, or when.  Because we simply do not know what they decided to keep and what to throw out... nor do we know when they decided to do that.  But we do know, beyond any doubt, that they decided to toss out a hell of a lot from the canon.

 

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Doesn't Jon Connington have greyscale in the books? Maybe some of JonCon's story got morphed into Jorah's on the show.

It's probably true that that part of it did.  Jorah was in a boat with Tyrion when it happened, if memory serves.

But that still tells us nothing about Show Jon vs. Book Aegon, because Show Jon had nothing to do with it at all.

Show Jorah's story barely even crosses over with Show Jon's... in complete contrast to Jon Connington's story, which is all about Book Aegon.

I also have to chuckle at the idea that Jon Connington, in a future book, will wind his way to Oldtown to be miraculously cured by Sam.  Everything about that reeks of D&D's typical bullshit, IMO.

[SirArthur]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:41 AM, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'd just like to point out that GRRM never confirms Lyanna is Jon's mother in Book Canon. 

We have this from D&D:

  Quote

He asked us, "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-game-of-thrones-writers-had-to-answer-this-trick-question-2015-4

 

Wait a moment. According to D&D's interpretation Rhaegar and Lyanna is a shocking answer ? Wtf is going on ? It is a romantic option in their interpretation. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

14 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The Dance of the Dragons 2.0 will be Young Griff and the Greyjoy Bros w/dragons.

How does Young Griff get a dragon in this scenario?