Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The crystal of the seven has seven facets to reflect the seven aspects of the deity. 

Where is it mentioned in the books, who currently owns it?

[MaesterSam]

On 6/10/2019 at 4:15 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I do tend to take the "mad" accusation with a grain of salt. It's standard procedure to denigrate and charge the defeated foe with "crimes" in order to justify taking them down. They also portray him as paranoid, but wouldn't you be a bit wary when one of your vassal houses takes you prisoner? Then you've got this spymaster Varys whispering suggestions of a coup. Aerys doesn't immediately lock his son up, but he does take some precautions. Does this sound like a madman to you, or someone pretty level headed?

Exactly. He was right to be paranoid, as Tywin and Rhaegar (whether together or individually) were plotting to depose him. Tywin almost succeeded at Duskendale, then Rhaegar tried to do it via the Harrenhal tourney and presumably a Great Council to agree Rhaegar should be king; lastly, Tywin succeeded on his second try and Aerys was betrayed and killed. If Varys was conveying even a fraction of all this to Aerys, Aerys would have to be insane to not be paranoid and afraid. 

He probably did have some personality quirks/flaws, which made it easier for Pycelle (the Lannister-loyal maester who sent all the info on happenings in KL to the Citadel, there to be recorded as history) to build the narrative of the Mad King. Not getting a haircut for years is a bit extreme (though less so if he was dreaming of daggers in the dark, and he was right in the end to fear blades). The slow roasting of living men was also not ok. But other men have done things just as bad (Ramsay, Gregor Clegane) and are not called "mad". 

On 6/10/2019 at 4:15 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I wonder if Rhaegar was an airhead. Lets look at some of the events more objectively. There could be some innocent explanations. What might be another reason to hold the Harrenhal Tourney? Was it perhaps simply a celebration for the return to Spring? It seems an inopportune time to plan a coup if your wife is pregnant with your second child and you're not going to be around. What if Rhaegar had no intention of starting a Rebellion? Would he have been absent for so long for his own war if rebellion was what he intended? 

That's an amusing thought. 

Another possibility is that Rhaegar wanted to overthrow Aerys peacefully. He didn't want a rebellion or a war: he wanted to hold a Great Council and essentially get the lords' blessing to take over the kingship. It had a high likelihood of working: we know from the various POVs that Rhaegar was very well liked by virtually everybody, and many people thought he would make a great king and certainly a better king than Aerys. This would be a way to end the reign of the mad king without bloodshed; even Aerys could stay alive and maybe live out his days on Dragonstone. Too bad it didn't work out. 

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Where is it mentioned in the books, who currently owns it?

I don't think that there is one in the way that we have Dawn. Its just a standard bit of kit symbolising their faith.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/14/2019 at 12:33 PM, Black Crow said:

As those of you who have been around for a while will know I prefer to keep things simple and above all grounded. What's important here is not to get confused by the Mummers' version.

GRRM has basically confirmed the identity of Jon Snow's mother and there really isn't much mileage in looking at multiple candidates. What's important is the emphasis on "mother", which confirms what we miserable heretics have long argued; that she, not a parvenu Targaryen prince is important.

Then we have the outcomes, or at least some of them. He revealed who will become High King, [and its not Jon], and as to the principal characters, who lives and who dies in the end, but obviously told nothing as to how those outcomes came about and in particular how Bendigeidfran, the blessed crow, became high king  

Young Griff/Aegon doesn't feature, simply because his outcome wasn't revealed and the whole mystery of his identity and his backers hasn't been touched in the books. The Mummers had absolutely nothing to base a story on and in any case what we do have is a complication in introducing another Targaryen pretender. Its a complication they could do without and in all honesty one that GRRM could probably have done without.

Returning to Jon Snow here we have another gaping hole in the story. We last saw him bleeding out in the yard at Castle Black, yet he makes it to the end, but doesn't make High King far less sit on the Iron Throne, so the anguish among the R+L=J believers and their futile speculation as to his "real" or "Targaryen" name is a bit sad and akin to sticking their fingers in their ears and going la-la-la...

That's gone and so too is what I suspect is Jon's real purpose, never revealed to the Mummers' and that's to weave the real magic into the story. Instead of the lame return of the King and the Azor Ahai role predicted by the R+L=J believers, and dashed by that final season of the mummers' farce, what I predict we will find through Jon if GRRM ever gets around to publishing the story, is the reveal anent the Stark connection to Winter and the magic beyond the Wall which is why we got the outcome we did

And just a final thought. I'm not convinced by this time travel malarkey, other than seeing visions of what was and what might be, but if it is physically possible, what of Coldhands? Anne Groell was told he's not Benjen, but could he be Jon?

To the points of keeping it grounded and not being confused by the Mummer's version:

I know you're stating your opinion, but it is speculation that GRRM confirmed the mother. It isn't Book Canon yet, regardless of what the Mummer's said or did. There's room for his mother to be someone else. Even though this girl that we are both mind-meld thinking about can't even be proven to have been pregnant... I agree the main focus should be on figuring out the father as that's the bigger mystery. 

There's zero Book Canon that I'm aware of that points to Jon wanting to be King of Westeros and the only Book Canon from Jon's chapters I can find that even possibly points to Targaryen or anything outside of the Ice side of the story is this:

For context, this is from AGOT Jon V. Jon and Co had just been promoted into the Watch, but not yet given duties. Jon is wrestling with saying the NW vows and committing to life at the Wall, or returning to Arya, Robb and his family in Winterfell. Free of consequences as he hadn't said his vows yet. 

He had no destination in mind. He wanted only to ride. He followed the creek for a time, listening to the icy trickle of water over rock, then cut across the fields to the kingsroad. It stretched out before him, narrow and stony and pocked with weeds, a road of no particular promise, yet the sight of it filled Jon Snow with a vast longing. Winterfell was down that road, and beyond it Riverrun and King's Landing and the Eyrie and so many other places; Casterly Rock, the Isles of Faces, the red mountains of Dorne, the hundred islands of Braavos in the sea, the smoking ruins of old Valyria. All the places that Jon would never see. The world was down that road … and he was here.

Once he swore his vow, the Wall would be his home until he was old as Maester Aemon. "I have not sworn yet," he muttered. He was no outlaw, bound to take the black or pay the penalty for his crimes. He had come here freely, and he might leave freely … until he said the words. He need only ride on, and he could leave it all behind. By the time the moon was full again, he would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.

Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her?

Jon Snow turned away from the kingsroad to look behind him. The fires of Castle Black were hidden behind a hill, but the Wall was there, pale beneath the moon, vast and cold, running from horizon to horizon.

He wheeled his horse around and started for home.

IMO this is framed as a choice for Jon between the NW at the Wall (Ice), King's Landing (King of Westeros), Winterfell (Lord of Winterfell) and Valyria (Fire). 

Jon chooses Ice.

To get back to replying to the rest of your post, GRRM may have revealed outcomes to the Mummer's, and they may or may not have used them, but we do not know what they were and they are not canon. There's dozens (at least) differences between Show and Book. It's a leap of faith, to be generous, to conclude that any of their outcomes will be the same. Just because the Show told us who the High King is and what Arya etc does in their ending... doesn't mean any of it will happen the same way in Book world and it isn't an indication either way, since the Show changed so much it cannot be relied upon. As much as I'd love for Arya to live and sail for amazing adventures West of Westeros and the show actually did pretty much go with my Bran theory, we can't say we know the journey (TWOW-END) or the character endings either exactly or vaguely. We can speculate, and build on that, but it has to be treated as such. Otherwise you may end up spending years backing a theory that the author practically outright tells you like this is what I want you to conclude ...all the while deep analysis of the Book text such as Mark's (f)Dany essay and the apparently GRRM "the author gets it" approved Meereneese Blot essays substantiate that GRRM tells you one thing while showing you another. 

I would like to hear more about this Bendigeidfran. 

I agree it was best to leave Young Griff out. Even if they had done it properly and made 9 seasons of 10 episodes, YG was to much clutter for their ending. But it is a leap to say GRRM shouldn't have included him. He could be real. I'd wager if GRRM had planned for 8-9 books from the start, less people would be dismissing YG for "being introduced so late" and "unnecessarily taking up more book space". 

I too take joy in the theory that supposedly is pointed to by practically every sentence of the books...only existed in Show to make Dany jealous . 

I'd wager Jon's purpose is on the Ice side of the Song. Mayhaps as the Night's King reborn. What is the Stark connection to Winter and the magic beyond the Wall?

What do you mean by "time travel malarkey"? I thought you meant Bran until you brought up Jon existing in two bodies at once...one of them having been sent some amount of years into the past.

 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/14/2019 at 12:40 PM, Feather Crystal said:

la-la-la-la-la-la-laaa, lol, sorry! I'm holding onto my theory that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara and that the show completely changed everything after meeting with George and went to the forums for ideas on how to end their story.

I certainly would have smiled and held my tongue, as George did, if they had guessed Ashara and it was correct!

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

On 6/14/2019 at 12:59 PM, Black Crow said:

I'll not deny Ashara is an attractive possibility, but I feel that Lyanna fits better with the outcome as revealed by GRRM

Will you please share this outcome with us, George(Black Crow)?

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

To the points of keeping it grounded and not being confused by the Mummer's version:

I know you're stating your opinion, but it is speculation that GRRM confirmed the mother. It isn't Book Canon yet, regardless of what the Mummer's said or did. There's room for his mother to be someone else. Even though this girl that we are both mind-meld thinking about can't even be proven to have been pregnant... I agree the main focus should be on figuring out the father as that's the bigger mystery. 

There's zero Book Canon that I'm aware of that points to Jon wanting to be King of Westeros and the only Book Canon from Jon's chapters I can find that even possibly points to Targaryen or anything outside of the Ice side of the story is this:

For context, this is from AGOT Jon V. Jon and Co had just been promoted into the Watch, but not yet given duties. Jon is wrestling with saying the NW vows and committing to life at the Wall, or returning to Arya, Robb and his family in Winterfell. Free of consequences as he hadn't said his vows yet. 

 

 

Can I suggest a quick bit of editing in your post as your own text has appeared in the quote box 

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

To the points of keeping it grounded and not being confused by the Mummer's version:

I know you're stating your opinion, but it is speculation that GRRM confirmed the mother. It isn't Book Canon yet, regardless of what the Mummer's said or did. There's room for his mother to be someone else. Even though this girl that we are both mind-meld thinking about can't even be proven to have been pregnant... I agree the main focus should be on figuring out the father as that's the bigger mystery. 

There's zero Book Canon that I'm aware of that points to Jon wanting to be King of Westeros and the only Book Canon from Jon's chapters I can find that even possibly points to Targaryen or anything outside of the Ice side of the story is this:

 

Anyway... by way of response. All things are possible but the balance of probabilities remains that his mother was Lyanna Stark and that he is indeed as Maester Aemon declared "a son of Winterfell". That being the most likely option I'm pretty laid back on the identity of his father and don't see it as the "central mystery". While there are some intriguing possibilities, most notably Ser Arthur Dayne, the most likely is probably R+L=J, not because it makes Jon a Targaryen prince but simply down to the irony of his connection to the War.

There is indeed zero suggestion anywhere in the books to Jon having any designs on the throne that only exists in the imaginations of those believers in R+L=J who have promoted him over the years as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and that Azor Ahai bloke rolled into one. Throughout this thread's existence we miserable heretics have kicked and argued against that.

As to Bendigeidfran, see my post above as he and Bran the Blessed are one and the same.

[Lady Rhodes]

On 6/11/2019 at 2:17 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I guess it's possible. I had thought A Game of Thrones began in Jan 298, with A Clash of Kings beginning in Dec 298, A Storm of Swords beginning in mid 299, and Feast/Dance beginning in Jan 300. The glitch in the matrix was just a passing thought. I don't know how many chapters are between Tyrion II and Jon VII, but both seem early on in the book.

This may have already been mentioned (I’ve been it of touch and behind on these posts) but Joffrey and Margaery’s Marriage may be of use for calculating dates both pre and post wedding. It occurred on the first day of the new year 300, correct?

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

3 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

Exactly. He was right to be paranoid, as Tywin and Rhaegar (whether together or individually) were plotting to depose him. Tywin almost succeeded at Duskendale, then Rhaegar tried to do it via the Harrenhal tourney and presumably a Great Council to agree Rhaegar should be king; lastly, Tywin succeeded on his second try and Aerys was betrayed and killed. If Varys was conveying even a fraction of all this to Aerys, Aerys would have to be insane to not be paranoid and afraid. 

He probably did have some personality quirks/flaws, which made it easier for Pycelle (the Lannister-loyal maester who sent all the info on happenings in KL to the Citadel, there to be recorded as history) to build the narrative of the Mad King. Not getting a haircut for years is a bit extreme (though less so if he was dreaming of daggers in the dark, and he was right in the end to fear blades). The slow roasting of living men was also not ok. But other men have done things just as bad (Ramsay, Gregor Clegane) and are not called "mad". 

That's an amusing thought. 

Another possibility is that Rhaegar wanted to overthrow Aerys peacefully. He didn't want a rebellion or a war: he wanted to hold a Great Council and essentially get the lords' blessing to take over the kingship. It had a high likelihood of working: we know from the various POVs that Rhaegar was very well liked by virtually everybody, and many people thought he would make a great king and certainly a better king than Aerys. This would be a way to end the reign of the mad king without bloodshed; even Aerys could stay alive and maybe live out his days on Dragonstone. Too bad it didn't work out. 

 

Tinfoil: Rhaegar used Harrenhal tourney to essentially convene a secret Great Council. His plan was to 

 

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Can I suggest a quick bit of editing in your post as your own text has appeared in the quote box 

 

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Can I suggest a quick bit of editing in your post as your own text has appeared in the quote box 

I... can't figure out how to fix it from my phone and I don't have access to a computer.

 

My apologies. I'm just not familiar with how to edit this forums posts and it inserted my own text into a quote for seemingly no reason. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

See? *brain aneurysm*

[Black Crow]

Normally its not a problem - its using a phone, but hey, sit back and enjoy the ride

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

Well I mean, you can tell what I wrote. Lol.

[MaesterSam]

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Tinfoil: Rhaegar used Harrenhal tourney to essentially convene a secret Great Council. His plan was to 

I don't think this is tinfoil at all; I think it's quite likely. Varys figured it out and told Aerys, which is why the king attended the tourney when he hadn't left the Red Keep in years. This foiled Rhaegar's plan, though he may have attempted some communication with the various lords in secret (we know from the Reeds that Ashara may have been the go-between for the conspirators, as she danced with men from many great houses in turn). Barristan chapters also suggest there was something going on at the tourney involving Rhaegar, but that Rhaegar didn't trust him the way he did Arthur Dayne and Gerold Hightower so he never knew what it was. 

The failed attempt at a Great Council may explain why Rhaegar left Dragonstone so soon after returning, despite it being winter, and also why he "couldn't be found" by Aerys. He was secretly treating with each great house in turn, securing allies one by one. He would have gone to Dorne, and possibly Casterly Rock. The Reach fought for him at the Trident, so he may have also visited Highgarden, and probably intended to visit the other Houses as well. Then everything went awry when Lyanna disappeared and someone started the rumor that he had abducted her. We know what happens from there. 

[MaesterSam]

On 6/15/2019 at 4:47 AM, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

How does Young Griff get a dragon in this scenario?

He and Dany may not be enemies right away. We know from Tyrion and JonCon POVs that the plan/goal is for Aegon to marry Daenerys and rule together - not to fight her because he has the better claim. There will be no hostility coming from his end. And thus Dany will (at least initially) have no reason to fight him. She might even be happy to have a living relative who wants to be her friend - and her husband, which may not be all bad, as apparently he is quite attractive. She may offer to let him ride a dragon, as she did with Jon in the show. In fact, she may ask him to prove himself by riding one. And once he has, that dragon is bonded to him and he can use it as he sees fit. We saw this in the original Dance of the Dragons, when random dragonseeds were allowed a dragon and some turned their cloaks and fought against the actual Targaryens. 

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, MaesterSam said:

He and Dany may not be enemies right away. We know from Tyrion and JonCon POVs that the plan/goal is for Aegon to marry Daenerys and rule together - not to fight her because he has the better claim. There will be no hostility coming from his end. And thus Dany will (at least initially) have no reason to fight him. She might even be happy to have a living relative who wants to be her friend - and her husband, which may not be all bad, as apparently he is quite attractive. She may offer to let him ride a dragon, as she did with Jon in the show. In fact, she may ask him to prove himself by riding one. And once he has, that dragon is bonded to him and he can use it as he sees fit. We saw this in the original Dance of the Dragons, when random dragonseeds were allowed a dragon and some turned their cloaks and fought against the actual Targaryens. 

That's my guess how it goes down, except he ends up being a dragon snack. 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

That's my guess how it goes down, except he ends up being a dragon snack. 

Yes, its a plausible scenario with a number of possible outcomes, although I think that his principal purpose is to muddy the waters anent the Targaryen succession which will in turn increase the potential for conflict when Danaerys tools up and as I've said before that conflict in turn makes it the more difficult to see Jon Snow as a credible candidate

[Brad Stark]

I find it much more credible that Dany believes Jon is a Targaryen based on the dragons behavior than Sam finding an old document or Bran telling people he had a vision.   Especially after Quentyn and now fAegon get eaten. 

[Melifeather]

When Rhaenyra lost the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon II fed her to his dragon Sunfyre. This event of the wheel of time may have already been played out with Quentyn, because he was the sun's son. (The son was on fire alright)

[alienarea]

It is also a possibility that bookJon and bookDaenerys never meet.

Wouldn't it be more bittersweet and original if we knew they would have been perfect or each other, but Jon simply stays with the Nightwatch and Daenerys gets killed by fAegon? And the epilogue would reveal that fAegon isn't a Targaryen at all?