Heresy 223 and where we go from here

[Melifeather]

30 minutes ago, St Daga said:

In this case, you think that Dawn, the blade of the Dayne's, works against fire (dragons), while the Stark blade called Ice works against ice? So, fire fighting fire and ice fighting ice? Because it seems like it might actually be fight fire with ice and ice with fire, so I see the possible opposite of what you are saying.

No. I think you fight fire with ice and ice with fire. Even though the Stark blade of old is called Ice I think it's "black ice" - a sword that burns ice. Sort of like Widow's Wail being a widow-maker or being the bane of widows. They say ice burns like fire. Maybe Ice is short for Black Ice? I'm expecting the opposite coloring of Dawn.

39 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is a good point, No matter if Dany's claim is true or not, how people will perceive her claim will be fouled by another person also claiming to be the true heir to the throne (Young Griff, whether his claim is true or not). Each claim will weaken the other, and to throw a third such claim (... if RLJ) into the ring will make the whole situation devolve into a complete fiasco. AND it won't matter, because as you point out, the Targaryen claim did end on the Trident, so if any of them want to take it back, the only thing that matters is conquest. The same way good ole Bobby B did it!

This reminds me of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series where the main character is Rand al'Thor who is also Lews Therin Telamon reborn. Lews was "the dragon" during the War of Power. Another nickname for Lews is the Kinslayer. He was the leader of the forces of Light and respected worldwide. Lews was reincarnated in the Third Age as Rand al'Thor, so Rand is "the dragon reborn".

Throughout various ages there were other men that claimed to be the dragon reborn, but while they had some evidence, they didn't fulfill all of the prophecies including scarlet and gold metallic dragon tattoos that magically appeared on Rand's forearms and heron brands on the palms of his hands. Later on in the series he loses his left hand to the top of his wrist from a fireball thrown by one of the Forsaken. Rand frequently time travels using invisible passages into the woven threads of the world. I've bolded the many similarities between ASOIAF and WOT, and Jaime, Bran, Daenerys, and Euron seem to be four aspects of Rand al'Thor.

56 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I know it's very tinfoil, but I question that this is what happened to Robb. In near death, his spirit tried to connect with Grey Wind, but when Grey Wind was killed, Robb's spirit went back into himself, while looking for a source body to inhabit. I think he tried to inhabit Catelyn's body. And I think it worked. I think what made it work was that Cat killed Aegon/Jinglebell, which worked as a blood sacrifice. Then, Robb and Cat are co-existing in Cat's body when she is killed. Did Robb's spirit again have to go searching? Or does Robb's spirit remain tethered to Cat's body in death? And when Beric's fire awakened Catelyn's remains, what spirit/soul did he really wake?

In theory, Robb couldn't inhabit Catelyn unless he took her before his spirit was severed from his own body. He had never slipped into her skin before like Bran did to Hodor, so I doubt he knew how to do this. If he and his wolf died his spirit would have been set free and floating on the wind. I'm not sure if it continues to float on the wind or if it eventually settled into the woods, stone, and streams? We weren't given any examples for what happens when both human and familiar die.

[Black Crow]

12 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In theory, Robb couldn't inhabit Catelyn unless he took her before his spirit was severed from his own body. He had never slipped into her skin before like Bran did to Hodor, so I doubt he knew how to do this. If he and his wolf died his spirit would have been set free and floating on the wind. I'm not sure if it continues to float on the wind or if it eventually settled into the woods, stone, and streams? We weren't given any examples for what happens when both human and familiar die.

I think that the problem here is that while the bond between Robb and Grey Wind existed it hadn't yet matured to the extent of the bonds enjoyed by Jon and Bran with their direwolves

[Brad Stark]

If the Starks can go back into their bodies after death, that explains warding them and putting them into the crypts.  We also have clues about "a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If the Starks can go back into their bodies after death, that explains warding them and putting them into the crypts.  We also have clues about "a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"

That's a good point and I hadn't considered that. There must be a reason why their crypts are warded. Do you suppose that once the Stark died they killed their wolf too?

[St Daga]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

No. I think you fight fire with ice and ice with fire. Even though the Stark blade of old is called Ice I think it's "black ice" - a sword that burns ice. Sort of like Widow's Wail being a widow-maker or being the bane of widows. They say ice burns like fire. Maybe Ice is short for Black Ice? I'm expecting the opposite coloring of Dawn.

I was following the idea that Dawn, a white blade, is the original sword of House Stark, or that their blade was at least a mirror of Dawn. But an inversion of a black sword does make sense to me.  I do agree that it makes sense to fight fire with ice and ice with fire. And that is part of holding the balance that is needed.

This idea of two swords also reminds me of Stormbringer (Black Blade, Stealer of Souls) and Mournblade (Ravenbrand). They are brother swords and both are black swords (so perhaps both Dawn and Ice could be white?), Stormbringer feeds on souls and I like the idea of sword drinking blood (as I think Valyrian steel Ice does) where as. This also reminds me of Lady Forlorn, another interesting Valyrian steel blade in our story. Nightfall is another sword I am very interested in. Nightfall almost seems an opposite kind of name to Dawn.

 

53 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

This reminds me of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series where the main character is Rand al'Thor who is also Lews Therin Telamon reborn. Lews was "the dragon" during the War of Power. Another nickname for Lews is the Kinslayer. He was the leader of the forces of Light and respected worldwide. Lews was reincarnated in the Third Age as Rand al'Thor, so Rand is "the dragon reborn".

Throughout various ages there were other men that claimed to be the dragon reborn, but while they had some evidence, they didn't fulfill all of the prophecies including scarlet and gold metallic dragon tattoos that magically appeared on Rand's forearms and heron brands on the palms of his hands. Later on in the series he loses his left hand to the top of his wrist from a fireball thrown by one of the Forsaken. Rand frequently time travels using invisible passages into the woven threads of the world. I've bolded the many similarities between ASOIAF and WOT, and Jaime, Bran, Daenerys, and Euron seem to be four aspects of Rand al'Thor.

I am just starting this Wheel of Time series. I am in the first book, so my knowledge on it is very little. I have heard many people make connections to the series though, almost as many connections as people see to the LotR, which I have read, although it's been several years ago now.

 

55 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

In theory, Robb couldn't inhabit Catelyn unless he took her before his spirit was severed from his own body. He had never slipped into her skin before like Bran did to Hodor, so I doubt he knew how to do this. If he and his wolf died his spirit would have been set free and floating on the wind. I'm not sure if it continues to float on the wind or if it eventually settled into the woods, stone, and streams? We weren't given any examples for what happens when both human and familiar die.

Well, we are told that Stark's are hard to kill, and by this I think it's means their skinchanger spirit, but that also might tie to killing their physical body. And yes, Robb's body might have died after the sword twisted in his heart, but his spirit might have tried very hard to live. We see Varamyr trying to take over Thistle before his true death, and the reason I think he fails is because there is no blood sacrifice to make the transition work. It almost works, he was so close to taking Thistle. Maybe because he is weak now, but we we know he is a very strong skinchanger. I think his spirit takes her before his true death. We don't ever actually see if Robb dies. The last Cat mentions is a man in a pale cloak twisting a sword in Robb's heart, but we don't know that Robb is killed in this moment, although most people would be. Again, Stark's are hard to kill.

Another difference I see is that Thistle fought Varamyr, and I don't think Catelyn fought off Robb's spirit. She is a mother and would do anything to help her children, even creepy body possession!

 

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the problem here is that while the bond between Robb and Grey Wind existed it hadn't yet matured to the extent of the bonds enjoyed by Jon and Bran with their direwolves

Since we don't have Robb's POV, it's hard to say how strong his and Grey Wind's bond was. I think it was pretty strong. And even more impressive is that Robb would have been completely untaught, pretty similar to Jon, actually. Both of them just going on instinct, but at least Jon is introduced to the idea of skinchanging being possible with his experiences north of the wall. As to Robb, instinct can take people a long way, especially if their nature is a skinchanger. And Robb might have been the first Stark to bond with their direwolf (he held Grey Wind before Jon had even found Ghost), so his bond could have been long and strong enough.

[alienarea]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's a good point and I hadn't considered that. There must be a reason why their crypts are warded. Do you suppose that once the Stark died they killed their wolf too?

That could help to explain why direwolves dwindled.

[Brad Stark]

I wish we knew when the Stark's stopped having direwolves. 

Quote

And Summer came, shooting from the dimness behind them, a leaping shadow. He slammed into Shaggydog and knocked him back, and the two direwolves rolled over and over in a tangle of grey and black fur, snapping and biting at each other, while Maester Luwin struggled to his knees, his arm torn and bloody. Osha propped Bran up against Lord Rickard’s stone wolf as she hurried to assist the maester. In the light of the guttering torch, shadow wolves twenty feet tall fought on the wall and roof

Which Rickard is this?

Quote

That one is Jon Stark. When the sea raiders landed in the east, he drove them out and built the castle at White Harbor. His son was Rickard Stark, not my father’s father but another Rickard, he took the Neck away from the Marsh King and married his daughter

Then ADWD gives us some evidence some or all the most recent lords had wolf statues:

Quote

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord Jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. 

This makes it sound like all the Lords of Winterfell from Cregan onward had a wolf statue.  A wolf statue doesn't absolutely mean they had a wolf, but is still good evidence.  We aren't told explicit which (or all) of the above Lords had stone wolves, but it reads as if some, if not most, did.

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the Starks can go back into their bodies after death, that explains warding them and putting them into the crypts.  We also have clues about "a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell"

That's a good point and I hadn't considered that. There must be a reason why their crypts are warded. Do you suppose that once the Stark died they killed their wolf too?

This idea just sort of blew my mind! Perhaps they did kill the direwolf companion, too. But why? Did they fear the Stark Lord/King and what they might do with a second life? And could this mean that both the human and direwolf bones lie in the crypts, and the iron sword wards them both? So, we know that several swords have been removed from the crypts, near the end of Clash, but the only one that should have a direwolf possibly laid with it would be the iron sword that belonged to an ancient king that Hodor claimed. Could this direwolf be the wolf that Jon saw in his dreams, when he was limping through the crypts with a crutch?  "A direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark". I really thought that was Grey Wind but now I am wondering if it means something else. I have questioned how Grey Wind could be in the crypts if his bones were at the Twins, and Lady's bones are not in the crypts, but buried in the lichyard, plus Jon notes this is a male wolf.

 

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I wish we knew when the Stark's stopped having direwolves.

A great question. Theon tells us that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the wall for 200 years, but is he correct? We hear nothing that leads us to think that Torrhen came to the Trident with a direwolf, so perhaps it was even longer in the past than the conquest? The statues of the direwolves might just have become a part of tradition, something that is added in the crypts without people really even knowing why they do it?

[Black Crow]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

Theon tells us that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the wall for 200 years, but is he correct? We hear nothing that leads us to think that Torrhen came to the Trident with a direwolf, so perhaps it was even longer in the past than the conquest? The statues of the direwolves might just have become a part of tradition, something that is added in the crypts without people really even knowing why they do it?

Its worth remembering how Bran notes how the appearance of the Stark lords changes over time with the older ones being harder and more heavily bearded than the more recent lords. 

He doesn't link this with the Conquest but it does raise an intriguing thought. If Theon reckons that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in 200 years that suggests that they had been in decline for some time previous to that last sighting. Could their decline be connected with the arrival of the dragons?

[SirArthur]

My problem with the Stark afterlife is the same as with king's blood: who decides who has it and who not ? As a reminder, only the Lords have statues and only the statues have swords on them.  There is no general protection for every male Stark with a bloodline to the Stark kings of old. The Karstarks may even be unprotected. 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I do think Varamyr's chapter was intended to show us that skinchanger spirits can be separated from the body. While the body is yet alive the spirit is tethered to it, but death severs the connection. But we also learned that skinchangers create a tether to the animals that they slip into, and as long as that animal remains alive - the tether is preserved. If the body dies the skinchanger's spirit remains tethered to it's animals and is drawn into the animal with the strongest bond. In Varamyr's instance it was One Eye. Presumably if Jon were to die his spirit remains tethered to Ghost, but what if Ghost is killed? Would this be Jon's final death? Or could he in theory be released from all tethered connections and float free like Varamyr? 

I theorize that white walkers are spirits that have been severed from all human and animal tethers, but magic encapsulates the spirit into an icy form so that it doesn't float away or go into the rocks, streams, and trees. That is why when the magic spell is broken with obsidian the ice dissolves into a mist.

The WWs are individual wargs trapped in corpses because it was the only body they were still strong enough to possess after their own death. I think I love it.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

18 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We've discussed this before.   The presence of wild dragons means a sacrifice is not needed.  I agree a sacrifice might be needed for a face on a tree.

Considering how many weirwoods originally had faces (we know it was many more than now)....that must have been one brutal Pact. What is the theory? That a human was sacrificed for each weirwood face? Does this then mean they are essentially part of the weirwood? Are they then a Greenseer?

I like the idea of the Pact having been a brutal one along these lines. That there were actual human sacrifices required. It fits with Martin's style...there must be a price paid for peace.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This is a narrative I've been pushing for a while now. Although Varamyr's prologue is explicit in laying out the "rules" of skinchanging and in particular the outcome, ie; when a skinchanger dies he [or she] is drawn into the strongest of the familiars and is trapped there until the soul is fully absorbed into the host - or the host also dies. There is no escape.

However, Varamyr never skinchanged a Direwolf, and my argument is that thanks to that particular bond [and remember that Leaf characterises Direwolves as one of the old races] the Starks are powerful enough wargs to fly free even when their original body is dead, and this I suggest can be manifested in two ways, either by riding the winds until they have need of a body and then creating one out of snow and ice [white walker] or returning to their own dead body [Coldhands].

There may be an internal conflict over this but after years of thought on the matter I believe that Jon will opt for the second.

I also believe that this will turn out to be the key element of the story, underpinning the Stark connection to Winter - and of course such a big complicated reveal as to be totally unfilmable, hence the mummers opting for their Nights King nonsense.

Would Jon slowly turn into what Coldhands is now? As in would we see Jon as a more mobile, closer to normal self, type zombie than Coldhands and he slowly... atrophies?

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth remembering how Bran notes how the appearance of the Stark lords changes over time with the older ones being harder and more heavily bearded than the more recent lords. 

He doesn't link this with the Conquest but it does raise an intriguing thought. If Theon reckons that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in 200 years that suggests that they had been in decline for some time previous to that last sighting. Could their decline be connected with the arrival of the dragons?

Or if not in decline, and you take 200 years liberally, their disappearance could be connected to the death of dragons. 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

My problem with the Stark afterlife is the same as with king's blood: who decides who has it and who not ? As a reminder, only the Lords have statues and only the statues have swords on them.  There is no general protection for every male Stark with a bloodline to the Stark kings of old. The Karstarks may even be unprotected. 

You have a good point about the other bodies in the crypts. We have Lyanna's crypt and statue with no hint of an iron sword, and from Ned's thoughts, all his children would have places in the crypts for burial, so this must be standard procedure for other Stark family members. No mention of iron to bind these bodies in the grave. I guess there is the idea that the iron swords are not in place as wards for the Kings/Lords, but as weapons for them to take up when they are called, or woken. Old Nan does say that the Other's hated iron, and I have come to wonder if perhaps iron might also be a problem for dragons and dragon binders, as well as the Others. Maybe iron could serve as a weapon to fight the threat of ice and fire?

[alienarea]

23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You have a good point about the other bodies in the crypts. We have Lyanna's crypt and statue with no hint of an iron sword, and from Ned's thoughts, all his children would have places in the crypts for burial, so this must be standard procedure for other Stark family members. No mention of iron to bind these bodies in the grave. I guess there is the idea that the iron swords are not in place as wards for the Kings/Lords, but as weapons for them to take up when they are called, or woken. Old Nan does say that the Other's hated iron, and I have come to wonder if perhaps iron might also be a problem for dragons and dragon binders, as well as the Others. Maybe iron could serve as a weapon to fight the threat of ice and fire?

Maybe that fits with the oath of the Reed children, don't have it with me right now.

I know the last line is ice and fire, and iron is in one of the lines above.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Maybe that fits with the oath of the Reed children, don't have it with me right now.

I know the last line is ice and fire, and iron is in one of the lines above.

 

Quote

 

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

 

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

 

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

 

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together. ACOK-Bran III

 

and again

Quote

You are only a boy, I know, but you are our prince as well, our lord's son and our king's true heir. We have sworn you our faith by earth and water, bronze and iron, ice and fire. ASOS-Bran I

There is something to this, the bronze being weapons of the First Men and iron being weapons of the Andals, or so we are told. Earth and water are important, but no mention of sky or wind. And ice and fire plays an important role, but is it to protect ice and fire or to destroy ice and fire or just to contain ice and fire?

[Melifeather]

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

This idea just sort of blew my mind! Perhaps they did kill the direwolf companion, too. But why? Did they fear the Stark Lord/King and what they might do with a second life? And could this mean that both the human and direwolf bones lie in the crypts, and the iron sword wards them both? So, we know that several swords have been removed from the crypts, near the end of Clash, but the only one that should have a direwolf possibly laid with it would be the iron sword that belonged to an ancient king that Hodor claimed. Could this direwolf be the wolf that Jon saw in his dreams, when he was limping through the crypts with a crutch?  "A direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark". I really thought that was Grey Wind but now I am wondering if it means something else. I have questioned how Grey Wind could be in the crypts if his bones were at the Twins, and Lady's bones are not in the crypts, but buried in the lichyard, plus Jon notes this is a male wolf.

I like the idea of a direwolf spirit down in the crypts!

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its worth remembering how Bran notes how the appearance of the Stark lords changes over time with the older ones being harder and more heavily bearded than the more recent lords. 

He doesn't link this with the Conquest but it does raise an intriguing thought. If Theon reckons that there hasn't been a direwolf sighted south of the Wall in 200 years that suggests that they had been in decline for some time previous to that last sighting. Could their decline be connected with the arrival of the dragons?

I had suggested the idea of the Wall having a door that can be opened to allow magic into the world, and closed again to contain it - but once the door is closed it might take 150 years for magic to dwindle and dissipate. That is why the dragons got smaller and smaller until finally the eggs stopped hatching. There wasn't enough magic. Even the existence of dragons couldn't keep magic "alive". The same may be true for direwolves, although I myself don't view them as magical creatures. The opposite of dragons are white walkers, and direwolves still exist north of the Wall.

Quote

Viserys had told her that the last Targaryen dragons had died no more than a century and a half ago, during the reign of Aegon III, who was called the Dragonbane. That did not seem so long ago to Dany. "Everywhere?" she said, disappointed. "Even in the east?" Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn't there be dragons too?

 

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

The WWs are individual wargs trapped in corpses because it was the only body they were still strong enough to possess after their own death. I think I love it.

I have speculated that Tormund's sickly son Torwynd was transformed into a white walker:

Quote

"Oh, I do." The grin melted away like snow in summer. "I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …" Grief twisted Tormund's face. "Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o' your king's knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him. And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him."

It may have been preferable for Torwynd to transform into a bad-ass white walker if his human life was sickly and weak.

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Considering how many weirwoods originally had faces (we know it was many more than now)....that must have been one brutal Pact. What is the theory? That a human was sacrificed for each weirwood face? Does this then mean they are essentially part of the weirwood? Are they then a Greenseer?

I like the idea of the Pact having been a brutal one along these lines. That there were actual human sacrifices required. It fits with Martin's style...there must be a price paid for peace.

All those weirwoods on the Isle of Faces have faces carved into them hinting at greenseers below, but if Bloodraven is wasting away at less than 100 years old, then surely thousands of years old greenseers have long gone into the wood? So where would the power derive from? A large number of blood sacrifice may have fed great magic there. Is there a colony of Children yet living on the island? 

45 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You have a good point about the other bodies in the crypts. We have Lyanna's crypt and statue with no hint of an iron sword, and from Ned's thoughts, all his children would have places in the crypts for burial, so this must be standard procedure for other Stark family members. No mention of iron to bind these bodies in the grave. I guess there is the idea that the iron swords are not in place as wards for the Kings/Lords, but as weapons for them to take up when they are called, or woken. Old Nan does say that the Other's hated iron, and I have come to wonder if perhaps iron might also be a problem for dragons and dragon binders, as well as the Others. Maybe iron could serve as a weapon to fight the threat of ice and fire?

I'm thinking Ned wasn't convinced enough about his own historical past to ensure his immediate family had iron swords. If Lyanna was indeed a skinchanger it might explain why Theon also saw her. Her spirit is wandering around down in the crypts too.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

16 hours ago, St Daga said:

This idea just sort of blew my mind! Perhaps they did kill the direwolf companion, too. But why? Did they fear the Stark Lord/King and what they might do with a second life? And could this mean that both the human and direwolf bones lie in the crypts, and the iron sword wards them both? So, we know that several swords have been removed from the crypts, near the end of Clash, but the only one that should have a direwolf possibly laid with it would be the iron sword that belonged to an ancient king that Hodor claimed. Could this direwolf be the wolf that Jon saw in his dreams, when he was limping through the crypts with a crutch?  "A direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark". I really thought that was Grey Wind but now I am wondering if it means something else. I have questioned how Grey Wind could be in the crypts if his bones were at the Twins, and Lady's bones are not in the crypts, but buried in the lichyard, plus Jon notes this is a male wolf.

I like the idea of a direwolf spirit down in the crypts!

Last night I was also thinking of Jaime's weirwood stump dream. He thinks he is in Casterly Rock but I think he is probably in the Winterfell crypts. And there is some kind of beast down there with him. Perhaps this same direwolf spirit?

Quote

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom." ASOS-Jaime VI

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm thinking Ned wasn't convinced enough about his own historical past to ensure his immediate family had iron swords. If Lyanna was indeed a skinchanger it might explain why Theon also saw her. Her spirit is wandering around down in the crypts too.

Rickard and Brandon's statues had swords, because these are the swords that Meera and Bran take from the crypts. It's only Lyanna that seems to have no sword, otherwise it seems like Meera would have taken that, if it was the size meant for a female. Meera complains that Rickards sword is to heavy, so if a smaller sword was available, I think she would have taken it. 

I need to go back and think on Theon's dream in which he saw Rickard, Brandon and Lyanna. Was that before or after Bran and Co removed the swords on several of the crypts?

And Ned's statue had a sword, so the tradition continued even after his death. Even though his bones were not laid to rest yet, his statue was completed and he has an iron sword.

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I have speculated that Tormund's sickly son Torwynd was transformed into a white walker:

Quote

"Oh, I do." The grin melted away like snow in summer. "I am not the man I was at Ruddy Hall. Seen too much death, and worse things too. My sons …" Grief twisted Tormund's face. "Dormund was cut down in the battle for the Wall, and him still half a boy. One o' your king's knights did for him, some bastard all in grey steel with moths upon his shield. I saw the cut, but my boy was dead before I reached him. And Torwynd … it was the cold claimed him. Always sickly, that one. He just up and died one night. The worst o' it, before we ever knew he'd died he rose pale with them blue eyes. Had to see to him m'self. That was hard, Jon." Tears shone in his eyes. "He wasn't much of a man, truth be told, but he'd been me little boy once, and I loved him."

It may have been preferable for Torwynd to transform into a bad-ass white walker if his human life was sickly and weak.

This sounds like he was turned into a wight. Do you think he became a White Walker after the wight he was in was killed? Although him being noted to be sickly and small does hint at perhaps a skinchanger or greensight type of gift. Both Varamyr and Jojen are smaller and weaker than most people their ages.

 

 

 

 

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This sounds like he was turned into a wight. Do you think he became a White Walker after the wight he was in was killed? Although him being noted to be sickly and small does hint at perhaps a skinchanger or greensight type of gift. Both Varamyr and Jojen are smaller and weaker than most people their ages.

I know it's a jump, but I think Tormund is careful about the specifics. I think the wildlings have manufactured the white walker threat in order to get through the Wall. I posit that some of the wildlings volunteered to go through the transformation and were sacrificed. Tormund either witnessed the transformation or saw him afterward.