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Black Crow

Heresy 223 and where we go from here

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

It is also a possibility that bookJon and bookDaenerys never meet.

 

Certainly a possibility and possibly a strong one at that. I think that its more than a touch premature to introduce Jon to a dragon at this stage in the discussion

Stepping back from both wishful thinking and the Mummers' farce, legitimacy so far as crowns are concerned is a funny thing.

Aegon the Conqueror had no legitimate claim to Westeros save that of conquest. His heirs and successors derived their legitimacy from him, and as they lost their dragons that legitimacy weakened sufficiently for Robert's Rebellion to succeed. With the death of Aerys and Rhaegar the heir became Viserys, but he was never crowned because of a lack of support - and a lack of dragons to try and enforce that supposed legitimacy. While 300 years may seem a long time its not actually very long at all when you're dealing with noble families who count their lineage in thousands of years. GRRM has spoken in the past of how some of the story is influenced by Jacobitism and this is very relevant. Although the Stuarts had ruled Scotland for hundreds of years they only occupied the English throne for a bare 85 years between 1603 and 1688 so when Bonnie Prince Charlie tooled up 57 years after that it was a bit hard to convince Englishmen that he was the rightful lawful king. There was more too it than that of course but it does form a good analogy for the return of the Targaryens.

Moving on to Danaerys the Dragonlord and her own Seven Men of Moidart. She has her dragons and she has her thin claim to legitimacy [as in a presumed right to the throne]. This, although she doesn't know it yet, will be trashed by Young Aegon also claiming that same legitimacy and even [if some clown proposes it] R+L=J.

God bless the King! (I mean our faith's defender!) 
God bless! (No harm in blessing) the Pretender. 
But who Pretender is, and who is King, 
God bless us all! That's quite another thing!

So in the end, just as GRRM outlined back in 1993 its not going to come down to legal claims to the throne, but to Danaerys' dragons and her Dothraki donkey wallopers and that isn't going to be a pretty sight calculated to warm the hearts of her loving subjects. And then, at the end of the day when Danaerys the Slayer has gone to her eternal rest, is anyone seriously going to bid for the throne on the basis of being a Targaryen and therefore the rightful king.

The Targaryen claim to the throne died on the Trident and Danaerys is doomed

Edited by Black Crow

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Did we ever discuss the White Walkers to be the souls (for lack of a more fitting term) of the nightwatch brothers bound to the Night's King by sorcery? And if Jon is the inversion of the Night's King, he has to 'unbound' them?

I am thinking of this because it is something that would work in the books but not in the show, forcing the show to invent the Night King.

 

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32 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Did we ever discuss the White Walkers to be the souls (for lack of a more fitting term) of the nightwatch brothers bound to the Night's King by sorcery? And if Jon is the inversion of the Night's King, he has to 'unbound' them?

I am thinking of this because it is something that would work in the books but not in the show, forcing the show to invent the Night King.

 

Old Nan's stories have the white walkers being created first, then the Long Night, then the Battle for the Dawn, then the Wall is built, and then 13 Lord Commanders later we get the Nights King, so presumably the white walkers were made long before he was caught sacrificing to the Others. Don't you think the LC was executed or at the very least imprisoned within the Wall?

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