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Kaapstad

Did the writers confirm Jon’s ending?

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2 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

The new big bad that he somehow awakens like they seem to do on Supernatural. Seriously though most of the wildlings were kids so I would say protect them from bears and shit. 

So his new life long mission is Wildlife management.. In my head Jon just stays beyond the wall, finds a Wildling beauty named Val and finally finds some form of peace. 

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1 hour ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

The new big bad that he somehow awakens like they seem to do on Supernatural. Seriously though most of the wildlings were kids so I would say protect them from bears and shit. 

Are there any left? The huge undead army must have killed everyone on their way down. Remember the undead bear which D&D kinda forgot to show on the long night? There really aren’t any threats left and I think Jon has better things to do than hunt animals lol. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

Are there any left? The huge undead army must have killed everyone on their way down. Remember the undead bear which D&D kinda forgot to show on the long night? There really aren’t any threats left and I think Jon has better things to do than hunt animals lol. 

Didn't the 'amazing' zombie polar bear shank our favorite drunken red priest?

There was more of that crap?!

Edited by It_spelt_Magalhaes

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On 6/2/2019 at 12:12 PM, Kaapstad said:

In the alternate ending which is almost the same as his one except it has Jorah coming out of the tunnel along with Tormund, the writers say that Jon is still a part of the Nights Watch. He is ranging to the Far North and he isn’t going to stay with the Wildlings. He doesn’t intend to marry or have kids and intends to keep his NW vows. This is seeming to be a very depressing ending for Jon :(

 

Thoughts?

"Depressing" is a relative term, but I think if you understand the character then you understand that this is a happy ending for him. When Jon was leaving Winterfell and was talking to Tormund about taking Ghost, it was subtext that they were talking about Jon, the White Wolf. So when they say "He'll be happier there" and "He belongs there" that's meaning to be understood about Jon.

Bran repeats an idea that these characters are always "where you're supposed to be" and in the end montage this is where they are - where they belong, where they're happier for being. It's only depressing if the audience doesn't understand the characters and think to put their own idea of happiness onto them. After all, you know what they say about "one man's heaven.."

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5 hours ago, Kaapstad said:

Sansa and Bran did not manipulate him. I would say Dany did by seducing him into bending the knee. He was just a complete dolt when it came to Dany. Had he listened to Sansa or asked her before bringing Dany along, none of this mess would have happened. 

Bran was posted up outside right after Dany told Sam about killing his family. He felt it was imperative that Jon know R+L=J right at that moment (knowing full well Sam was feeling vulnerable and particularly anti-Dany), despite the fact Jon had already ridden a dragon. 

He then proceeded to not tell anyone about Euron’s ambush, and felt no need to warn Jon of his vision of a dragon’s shadow over KL. 

When he gets to KL later, he says things like “why do you think I came all this way” and “you were right where you needed to be”. 

I’m not sure if it was intended for Bran to look like a villain mastermind, but he def came off like one.

All he had to do was say “hey Jon, I had a vision of a dragon over KL, it feels pretty ominous, maybe you should try to talk to Daenerys”, and everything could have been averted.

Though he wouldn’t have been King...

As for Sansa, she’s been using Jon since season 6.

The moment she realized he wasn’t useful enough, she leaves to get the Vale and doesn’t tell him about it, she publicly undermines him at every opportunity, she’s only ever nice when he gives her something, and she snitched on him immediately, despite promising she wouldn’t. 

That was the relationship Jon was a total dolt about. Like she obviously didn’t care about him, and she treated him like a tool to further her own gains.

She’s even only right about Dany in hindsight, because the show gave her no reason to think like that.

Sansa didn’t know about the Tarly’s (who deserved execution), she didn’t know about anything she did in Essos, she didn’t know about “bend the knee”, she didn’t know ANYTHING about her, she just didn’t like her because. 

(FWIW I think in the books, Dany will kill Harry the Heir when she takes out fAegon, and that will be why Sansa hates her)

You say if Jon listend to Sansa this mess wouldn’t have happen, but how much would have changed if Sansa honored her promise to Jon and Bran spoke up about the things he was seeing?

Also Jon bent the knee on his own after Dany lost a dragon saving his ass. There was no seducing on her part. As rushed and awkward as their relationship was, they both fell in love.

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19 minutes ago, King Wyman said:

You say if Jon listend to Sansa this mess wouldn’t have happen, but how much would have changed if Sansa honored her promise to Jon and Bran spoke up about the things he was seeing?

Also Jon bent the knee on his own after Dany lost a dragon saving his ass. There was no seducing on her part. As rushed and awkward as their relationship was, they both fell in love.

A few thoughts I had after reading your comments.  I discuss and analyze on these boards at times as if there was no 3YR but if we believe that Bran truly saw the future ( since in a previous season he obviously saw Drogon in KL) then he knew how everything would turn out and just made sure all the pieces were in place to insure it.    I guess he couldn’t say too much because it would possibly change the way things turned out.   Makes you wonder why we bother to debate about what ifs and what could have been at all.. Maybe if there was NO BRAN then things would be different though....lol.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, John Meta said:

"Depressing" is a relative term, but I think if you understand the character then you understand that this is a happy ending for him. When Jon was leaving Winterfell and was talking to Tormund about taking Ghost, it was subtext that they were talking about Jon, the White Wolf. So when they say "He'll be happier there" and "He belongs there" that's meaning to be understood about Jon.

Bran repeats an idea that these characters are always "where you're supposed to be" and in the end montage this is where they are - where they belong, where they're happier for being. It's only depressing if the audience doesn't understand the characters and think to put their own idea of happiness onto them. After all, you know what they say about "one man's heaven.."

Problem being, they have never shown us that the Starks would be happy to never see each other again. Where was that in the text? We are meant to believe that curiosity about the West or going to the Wall or being Queen matters more to these characters than each other? Where is that supported? We are left to suppose they really don't care about each other that much. 

I think we all would have said that the trajectory of their stories was to get back home to each other. 

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, John Meta said:

"Depressing" is a relative term, but I think if you understand the character then you understand that this is a happy ending for him. When Jon was leaving Winterfell and was talking to Tormund about taking Ghost, it was subtext that they were talking about Jon, the White Wolf. So when they say "He'll be happier there" and "He belongs there" that's meaning to be understood about Jon.

Bran repeats an idea that these characters are always "where you're supposed to be" and in the end montage this is where they are - where they belong, where they're happier for being. It's only depressing if the audience doesn't understand the characters and think to put their own idea of happiness onto them. After all, you know what they say about "one man's heaven.."

I never understood that conversation in that context. I thought what it meant was that in that scene Jon was a depressed man. Dany was dragging him South into a war for a throne he did not care about. That’s why he says that to Tormund in a longing sort of way as he doesn’t want to go south. He would be happy just staying in Winterfell.

 They may throw a few lines here and there but I never really got the impression he liked staying with the wildlings. His only good interactions were with Tormund and really Ygritte.

They never showed that Jon liked hunting and wandering about and drinking which is what the wildlings do all the time. Show Jon seemed to care about his family when he asked them to visit at Castle Black. The show failed to sell that ending to me if that’s what they really intended. Maybe if he had made a few more wildling friends like Sam and Edd and the other 3-4 guys like in the Nights Watch( those who died fighting the giants in the wildling invasion) I would have believed it. But just Tormund. Nah. 

As I said before LOTR has a similar ending where Frodo leaves Middle Earth forever but still has Gandalf, Celebron, Galadriel, Elrond with him at the end. In the Inheritance cycle (a LOTR rip-off and not that good), Eragon leaves Alagaesia forever never to return but he has his dragons and 5 other close friends. 

It’s a tired old trope which all fantasy series use and is nothing new (I honestly think him staying in the North would be breaking the trend) but Jon’s case especially strikes me as especially sad amongst the peers  

 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Ned’s siblings did not stay in Winterfell so why expect all his children to stay there.  They all have their on life to live.  Ned/Catlyn seemed ok with Sansa marrying Joffrey and moving south, Arya marrying a lord and moving away, Jon joining the Watch, Bran becoming a Knight somewhere, do not know about Rickon yet, Robb ruling Winterfell

It is my understanding in medieval times for nobles, 1st born sons inherited everything, girls married and moved away, 2nd born sons might stay around in case something happen to the 1st born sons, any other sons moved away joining the military, etc..

The pack stays together has a nice ring but not realistic as they grow older.

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4 hours ago, Raebo said:

Ned’s siblings did not stay in Winterfell so why expect all his children to stay there.  They all have their on life to live.  Ned/Catlyn seemed ok with Sansa marrying Joffrey and moving south, Arya marrying a lord and moving away, Jon joining the Watch, Bran becoming a Knight somewhere, do not know about Rickon yet, Robb ruling Winterfell

It is my understanding in medieval times for nobles, 1st born sons inherited everything, girls married and moved away, 2nd born sons might stay around in case something happen to the 1st born sons, any other sons moved away joining the military, etc..

The pack stays together has a nice ring but not realistic as they grow older.

No they don’t but they literally moved to the 4 corners of the remote world. Arya somewhere out there on the sea. Jon somewhere in the remote regions of the North. And Sansa alone in Winterfell. Probably the only Stark in Westeros as I don’t consider Bran a Stark anymore. Don’t think that’s what Ned had in mind. Also Ned and his siblings did not have to deal with the trauma of having their entire family cut down one by one in a brutal way. 

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1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

No they don’t but they literally moved to the 4 corners of the remote world. Arya somewhere out there on the sea. Jon somewhere in the remote regions of the North. And Sansa alone in Winterfell. Probably the only Stark in Westeros as I don’t consider Bran a Stark anymore. Don’t think that’s what Ned had in mind. Also Ned and his siblings did not have to deal with the trauma of having their entire family cut down one by one in a brutal way. 

Ned and Benjen lost Lyanna, their brother and father. Ned ruled Winterfell and Benjen joined the NW. This isn’t that different. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Ned and Benjen lost Lyanna, their brother and father. Ned ruled Winterfell and Benjen joined the NW. This isn’t that different.  

But they didn't have to deal with brutal torture. the new Starks died and suffered brutally. Ned got the best death but Sansa and Arya had to watch the trauma of the beheading. Robb was beheaded at a wedding, his direwolf head sewed onto him and Catelyn's body thrown naked into the river and Arya had to watch it all. Sansa was assaulted by Joffrey, she had to deal with constantly insulting her brothers and her family herself, look at her father's head, look at her family sword besmirched at Joffrey's hands etc. You would think after this much trauma they would stick together atleast for a few years. They are pretty young to go their separate ways so soon and when they did part they went to the corners of the world unlike Ned and Benjen and his siblings. Catelyn and her sister were not that far from each other. Not to mention, the show grimly did imply death for Arya and Grey Worm. Ned and his family got comparably very quick deaths with no psychological torture

 

 

Edited by Kaapstad

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Jon belongs to the North, or better, the real North. It's not that depressive ending for Jon. He may feel guilty for betraying Daenerys, (but Daenerys betrayed herself first) but as Tyrion said, he will ask that question 10 years later.

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1 hour ago, Kaapstad said:

But they didn't have to deal with brutal torture. the new Starks died and suffered brutally. Ned got the best death but Sansa and Arya had to watch the trauma of the beheading. Robb was beheaded at a wedding, his direwolf head sewed onto him and Catelyn's body thrown naked into the river and Arya had to watch it all. Sansa was assaulted by Joffrey, she had to deal with constantly insulting her brothers and her family herself, look at her father's head, look at her family sword besmirched at Joffrey's hands etc. You would think after this much trauma they would stick together atleast for a few years. They are pretty young to go their separate ways so soon and when they did part they went to the corners of the world unlike Ned and Benjen and his siblings. Catelyn and her sister were not that far from each other. Not to mention, the show grimly did imply death for Arya and Grey Worm. Ned and his family got comparably very quick deaths with no psychological torture

 

 

True but the concept that they are no longer a pack makes no sense. If there is a whiff of danger to Sansa both Jon and Arya would fight their way back to help her. I think they would do the same for Bran. 

They will always put each other (Sansa, Arya, Jon maybe not Bran) over others always. That’s what I got from the Last of the Starks

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

True but the concept that they are no longer a pack makes no sense. If there is a whiff of danger to Sansa both Jon and Arya would fight their way back to help her. I think they would do the same for Bran. 

They will always put each other (Sansa, Arya, Jon maybe not Bran) over others always. That’s what I got from the Last of the Starks

In Alt Shift X's analysis, he thought Arya going West is a metaphor for her death as no one has returned from there alive. Its similar to how they killed Grey Worm offscreen through butterfly fever. He still didn't sound so sure about Jon. Personally, as I keep whittling between headcanons, I would stick to the him ending up at the wall the most. He gets to meet Sansa every now and then and also go visit the Wildlings. Don't forget there may be broken men like Sam who may be sent there and he can oversee the outcasts and make friends. I don't think Bran needs protection as he can pretty much see everything going on there. I need to bring some sort of a happy ending to Jon. Its not the concept of him going off with the wildlings which bothers me but no one going with him does. Suppose, they had Sam and Tyrion and Jorah going with him, I would have jumped with joy. Maybe its just me but I never got the feeling of his attachment to the NW like with his family and NW brothers.

Jon's relationship with LC Mormont, Sam, Edd, Pyp, Grenn, Uncle Benjen and Sansa and Arya were unique. I didn't get a feel of that with any of the wildlings except Ygritte. They tried to shoehorn it into the plot by having Jon tell Tormund "I wish I was going with you" but it should be show not tell. I don't buy it. Maybe if Val was there on the show and they had made Jon have more friends on that side like in the NW, I would have believed it

Edited by Kaapstad

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4 minutes ago, Kaapstad said:

In Alt Shift X's analysis, he thought Arya going West is a metaphor for her death as no one has returned from there alive. Its similar to how they killed Grey Worm offscreen through butterfly fever. He still didn't sound so sure about Jon. Personally, as I keep whittling between headcanons, I would stick to the him ending up at the wall the most. He gets to meet Sansa every now and then and also go visit the Wildlings. Don't forget there may be broken men like Sam who may be sent there and he can oversee the outcasts and make friends. I don't think Bran needs protection as he can pretty much see everything going on there. I need to bring some sort of a happy ending to Jon. Its not the concept of him going off with the wildlings which bothers me but no one going with him does. Suppose, they had Sam and Tyrion and Jorah going with him, I would have jumped with joy. Maybe its just me but I never got the feeling of his attachment to the NW like with his family and NW brothers.

Jon's relationship with LC Mormont, Sam, Edd, Pyp, Grenn, Uncle Benjen and Sansa and Arya were unique. I didn't get a feel of that with any of the wildlings except Ygritte. They tried to shoehorn it into the plot by having Jon tell Tormund "I wish I was going with you" but it should be show not tell. I don't buy it. Maybe if Val was there on the show and they had made Jon have more friends on that side like in the NW, I would have believed it

My headcanon is he stays at the Wall and does go to Winterfell from time to time. He’s the Benjen to Sansa’s Ned. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:37 PM, Kaapstad said:

Sansa and Bran did not manipulate him. I would say Dany did by seducing him into bending the knee. He was just a complete dolt when it came to Dany. Had he listened to Sansa or asked her before bringing Dany along, none of this mess would have happened. 

We didn't watch the same show ^^

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2 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

We didn't watch the same show ^^

 Clearly. I mean I can't see in any single way how Sansa manipulated him. That Vale thing is stupid as she really had no idea of Littlefinger would bring his army and if he did, turn on Jon at the last moment. Bran manipulating him is arguable as he told him his identity. But maybe he saw alternate scenarios and chose the best one?

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27 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

We didn't watch the same show ^^

Only person Sansa tried to manipulate was Tyrion. Sansa seemed concerned about Jon. If it was up to her Jon wouldn’t have gone south to meet Dany in season 7. And he definitely wouldn’t have gone down after the Long Night. 

Jon is older and doesn’t listen to his little sister. Which is why she did told Tyrion. 

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9 hours ago, Raebo said:

Ned’s siblings did not stay in Winterfell so why expect all his children to stay there.  They all have their on life to live.  Ned/Catlyn seemed ok with Sansa marrying Joffrey and moving south, Arya marrying a lord and moving away, Jon joining the Watch, Bran becoming a Knight somewhere, do not know about Rickon yet, Robb ruling Winterfell

It is my understanding in medieval times for nobles, 1st born sons inherited everything, girls married and moved away, 2nd born sons might stay around in case something happen to the 1st born sons, any other sons moved away joining the military, etc..

The pack stays together has a nice ring but not realistic as they grow older.

Well half the kids of that generation were killed so only Ned and Benjen were left. When Benjen left to go the wall Robb had been born as well as Jon. There were three Starks in Winterfell at that time.

We also can't compare situations because they didn't grow up normally. They have been shunted, separated and abused. They all end up by themselves and not only that, Benjen visits Ned, It doesn't seem like Sansa will ever see Jon or Arya again. Maybe we'd feel less like this if Brienne and Pod were with Sansa at the end or Gendry was on the boat with Arya. Their isolation is uncharacteristic considering the flow of the story has been about them being unwillingly isolated from each other.

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