Jump to content
James Steller

Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

Recommended Posts

Queen Alicent and her darling son.

'Ditching KL? Sure, but only after emptying the money drawer. Let us see how she deals with that.'

Not the bloodthirsty or power grabbing, almost par for the course, that shocked me, but in essence starving out the Seven Kingdoms' capital? That was some next level skeevyness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

@Lord Varys I love you. You're my hero.

The biggest villain of the Dance? Definitely Alicent Hightower.

It really is odd, though, how horrified she was at the death of Lucerys Velaryon. Given how badly she wanted her children to usurp Rhaenyra, did she really think it could be resolved without bloodshed? Three of the Nine regions of Westeros supported Rhaenyra en masse while at least three of the other ones were deeply divided.

Edited by James Steller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, James Steller said:

It really is odd, though, how horrified she was at the death of Lucerys Velaryon. Given how badly she wanted her children to usurp Rhaenyra, did she really think it could be resolved without bloodshed? Three of the Nine regions of Westeros supported Rhaenyra en masse while at least three of the other ones were deeply divided.

She was horrified because she and Otto then started to realize that they might all die screaming. Rhaenyra had more dragons, and she could have retaliated then and there by torching the city - or, perhaps worse for them, by having Rhaenys and Daemon fly to Oldtown to torch it.

In any case, she realized that they would not reach a compromise then - which, it seems, was still a pipe dream they had not yet completely buried. I mean, yes, the Green Council staged a coup, stole the throne and the treasury, killing and imprisoning a lot of people in the process, but they never struck against Rhaenyra or her family directly. The impression one gets is that those people were drunk with their apparent successes while 'the whore' was in confinement on Dragonstone, ignorant of what was happening. It is rather easy to think yourself invincible if your enemy doesn't even know what you are doing. By the time Aemond returned from Storm's End they seem to have gotten so many seemingly positive responses from all across the Realm that they likely started to believe their own lies - that Rhaenyra no longer had any friends - and that things would go as smoothly for them as they went for Viserys I in 101 AC (the news from the Vale and the North would have arrived sometime later, considering that Lucerys had a rather short flight to Storm's End).

And this wasn't completely outlandish - after all, Prince Viserys had no dragon in 101 AC, and the only dragonrider supporting him was Daemon. Corlys had Rhaenys, Laenor, and eventually Laena as dragonriders. If they had wanted to start a war in 103 AC when the Old King died they could have done so. Great Council or not, any castle visited by Vhagar would have torn down the three-headed dragon in favor of the seahorse of House Velaryon...

But once Aemond had actually killed one of his nephews and Rhaenyra's own son it was clear that there would be war - and a war that could no longer be prevented or stopped by negotiation and compromise. Aemond made it all-out war the same way Joffrey did when he took Ned's head.

If Lucerys hadn't been killed there would have been no Blood and Cheese and thus a reasonably good chance that the war wouldn't have escalated.

After all, the original strategy of both sides was to isolate the other side and look like the effective victor by getting as many declarations of loyalty from the lords as possible. The Greens thought that Rhaenyra would see 'reason' when they showed her that KL, the Crownlands, the Reach, and the West stood firmly with them. They were not prepared for a proper war. Vice versa, Daemon originally planned to goad Aegon II into doing something stupid (which Aemond later did). He had no intention to escalate the war, he intended to limit it to the Crownlands and the lands up to Harrenhal.

Luke's murder destroyed all that.

But I'd agree that Alicent clearly isn't worst of the lot. She certainly is to be blamed for the outbreak of the war, being the driving force behind the coup that started it, but she is not to be blamed for the escalation and most of the cruelties throughout the war - here most of the blame on the Green side lies at the feet of both Aegon II and Aemond (and only a little bit at Daeron's).

However, her actions at the end of the war and during the Regency really blacken her reputation. Her schemes with Larys Strong and Perkin the Flea are ugly, her plans to use and murder the Sea Snake are despicable as is her 'advice' to her son to mutilate his own nephew piece by piece.

Her true colors are revealed when she tries to force her granddaughter to murder her king and cousin. You can scarcely sink lower than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/3/2019 at 2:53 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Viserys I for setting up the whole thing.

Viserys I had his vicious moments, but he wasn't much of a villain, just astoundingly incompetent.

On 6/5/2019 at 10:45 AM, the Last Teague said:

Rhaenyra was also bloodthirsty. But the narrative gives little exposition to her vile acts. We only hear "many heads appeared on pikes". Even the forced prostitution of her haf-sister and mother-in-law is only a rumour.

Little exposition to her vile acts? She demands to have her 10-year-old brother tortured for saying the obvious, has Vaemond murdered in defiance of her father's decree and gives Dalton carte-blanche to murder, rob, enslave and rape like the Ironborn of old. And let's not even get started on her decisions in KL. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Rhaenyra's vile acts in the narrative. She is Cersei 0.5; every time she appears, she either does something vile, something stupid or something vile & stupid.

Edited by Myrish Lace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

Viserys I had his vicious moments, but he wasn't much of a villain, just astoundingly incompetent.

Little exposition to her vile acts? She demands to have her 10-year-old brother tortured for saying the obvious, has Vaemond murdered in defiance of her father's decree and gives Dalton carte-blanche to murder, rob, enslave and rape like the Ironborn of old. And let's not even get started on her decisions in KL. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of Rhaenyra's vile acts in the narrative. She is Cersei 0.5; every time she appears, she either does something vile, something stupid or something vile & stupid.

Rhaenyra is no Cersei. Rhaenyra is a sympathetic figure in my opinion, albeit moreso in the beginning. Her tragedy was that if she’d been born a boy, she would have had no problems being taken seriously in Westeros. But it didn’t matter how wise, capable, or brave she was, millions would reject her out of hand because she was a woman. She wasn’t always a violent or malicious person like Cersei was (the girl who pushed her friend down a well). Rhaenyra’s vile actions were mostly reactions to what other people did against her or her family. I don’t approve of a lot of what she did, but she was in a lose-lose situation. Even after all that she did, I still felt sorry for her when she lost her children, her war, and her life. Because no matter how unlikable she became, Aegon II was worse.

Edited by James Steller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Rhaenyra is no Cersei. Rhaenyra is a sympathetic figure in my opinion, albeit moreso in the beginning. Her tragedy was that if she’d been born a boy, she would have had no problems being taken seriously in Westeros. But it didn’t matter how wise, capable, or brave she was, millions would reject her out of hand because she was a woman. She wasn’t always a violent or malicious person like Cersei was (the girl who pushed her friend down a well). Rhaenyra’s vile actions were mostly reactions to what other people did against her or her family. I don’t approve of a lot of what she did, but she was in a lose-lose situation. Even after all that she did, I still felt sorry for her when she lost her children, her war, and her life. Because no matter how unlikable she became, Aegon II was worse.

Yeah, as things turned she made some mistakes, but she was never cruel because it was her nature or innermost desire. She only lashed out at people who threatened her or her family (the people citing the famous 'question Aemond sharply' line usually - and rather maliciously - omit that Alicent first demanded that Luke - who was then 4-5 years old! - was to lose his eye, too).

In the end she is a rather tragic figure, not a tyrant or mad lunatic. It is also implied that she was overall far too soft. Alicent and Helaena and Tyland were allowed to keep their heads, she did not give the Kingslanders fire and blood when they rioted and killed the royal dragons, etc. Her own consort cuckolded her, and her own courtiers mocked her body and appearance behind her back, her sons died left and right in a war she never wanted, etc.

But she was light years better than all her half-brothers. Less stupid/cruel than Aemond, infinitely more competent, sane, and forgiving than Aegon II, and much stronger than Daeron. Her sons all grew into very fine lads, Jacaerys and Viserys can easily be numbered among the best Targaryens we met so far.

And in the end she did win the war. The fact that she died doesn't change that. Her enemies were destroyed in the field by her people, flying her banner, her people killed Aegon II and unanimously put her son on the Iron Throne. Had she not left the ship to return to Dragonstone she would have returned to KL with Cregan Stark (as her new consort?) or Jeyne Arryn to retake her throne and punish her enemies. When she left Duskendale she had already won the war. She just didn't know it yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/4/2019 at 9:22 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

That is, if  you believe Queen Rhaenyra's children were legitimate.  I know, I know.  Appearance is not proof.  But yeah.  It's enough to create doubt for any reasonable person given that the Targaryens had a unique look to them.   I am taking Rhaenyra's side on this because the burden of proof was on the Hightowers to prove her children were illegitimate.  The status quo was they are legit, so to change it, the Hightowers must prove they were not. 

The thing is that, even if it could be proven that Rhaenyra first three sons weren't Laenor's, she still was his father's chosen heir. That didn't change. If you will, the discussion would be whether Jace or Aegon the Younger would come after her.  And that'd be an interesting discussion, to be sure, since as a queen she could have legitimated them, but Daemon may have something to say.  But in any case, it wouldn't involve the possibility of Aegon the Elder inheriting the throne.

On 6/5/2019 at 1:51 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, actually, I think Aegon II is much worse. Aemond still knew bounds when the war started, and his cruelest acts were done in the spur of the moment when he was very angry, but Aegon II just was an utter shit head no matter in what state of mind he was.

I'm not sure I agree on that one. Aemond murdered Lucerys when they were 19 and 14 respectively. With no provocation from Lucerys, and when no war had been declared. And I wouldn't call it "spur of the moment". While in Storm's End, he defies Luce to a duel (“You came here as a craven and a traitor. I will have your eye or your life, Strong.”) only to be stopped by Borros. After Maris provokes him, he asks permission to Borros to follow him. Then there's a persecution under the rain, and a fight. All this should take enough minutes for any sane man to calm down.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But she was light years better than all her half-brothers. Less stupid/cruel than Aemond, infinitely more competent, sane, and forgiving than Aegon II, and much stronger than Daeron.

To be fair, Daeron seems to be a fine lad too. He was strong enough, for a 15 year old boy. He certainly fought more battles that Rhaenyra during the war, and was crucial in submitting the Reach.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And in the end she did win the war. The fact that she died doesn't change that. Her enemies were destroyed in the field by her people, flying her banner, her people killed Aegon II and unanimously put her son on the Iron Throne.

The downside of Rhaneyra's victory is that while "her side" won, her cause lost. History remembers her as an usurper and a tyrant, she's not counted in the list of kings (while her half-brother is), the jurisprudence that women are to be prevented from accessing the throne is established, her own sons don't do any effort to restore her memory, and her immediate descendants will turn out to be particularly misogynist.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure I agree on that one. Aemond murdered Lucerys when they were 19 and 14 respectively. With no provocation from Lucerys, and when no war had been declared. And I wouldn't call it "spur of the moment". While in Storm's End, he defies Luce to a duel (“You came here as a craven and a traitor. I will have your eye or your life, Strong.”) only to be stopped by Borros. After Maris provokes him, he asks permission to Borros to follow him. Then there's a persecution under the rain, and a fight. All this should take enough minutes for any sane man to calm down.

FaB made the thing more complex. Aemond was apparently not obsessed with hate because he lost his eye. Aegon II later celebrating shows what kind of person he is.

33 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

To be fair, Daeron seems to be a fine lad too. He was strong enough, for a 15 year old boy. He certainly fought more battles that Rhaenyra during the war, and was crucial in submitting the Reach.

He was a follower and never lead anyone or anything. Jacaerys Velaryon was as old as Prince Daeron - he was a true leader of men, a king in the making, but Daeron failed at Tumbleton. We can be reasonably sure that there would have been no brutal sack nor infighting if a true leader had been there.

33 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

The downside of Rhaneyra's victory is that while "her side" won, her cause lost. History remembers her as an usurper and a tyrant, she's not counted in the list of kings (while her half-brother is), the jurisprudence that women are to be prevented from accessing the throne is established, her own sons don't do any effort to restore her memory, and her immediate descendants will turn out to be particularly misogynist.

Rhaenyra was never a champion of women's right or other such nonsense. She was simply the chosen heir of her father. Her own decrees reflect that she didn't give crap about changing laws in favor of women. It came back to haunt her, of course, but she simply was no champion of women's rights nor interested in changing the succession laws in general.

Rhaenyra's side won, in a sense, the same way as Aegon the Uncrowned's side won against Maegor - many of the survivors of the original campaign also sided with Jaehaerys I in 48 AC - but this didn't change reality. Rhaenyra lost the Iron Throne and her half-brother was restored to the Red Keep (not the Iron Throne ;-)), and that's why he is the proper king just like Maegor was, despite him - like Aegon II - also being a usurper.

If Stannis died at Winterfell but his sellsword would put Queen Shireen on the Iron Throne his side would win the war, too, but he would still not be counted as king because he never sat the throne or ruled properly.

How much Rhaenyra's sons did to honor her memory is, at this point, completely unclear. We don't know who decided to not count Rhaenyra as a proper monarch - if that's the case at all. What we do know now is that Aegon II did not make an attempt to erase the memory of his half-sister. He did not decree she never was a queen, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aemond was apparently not obsessed with hate because he lost his eye. Aegon II later celebrating shows what kind of person he is.

I still think he was nastier than his elder brother. As I see it, Luce's murder is inexcusable and much worse than anything Aegon II did. And actually doing something is worse than celebrating. But your mileage may vary. :)

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He was a follower and never lead anyone or anything. Jacaerys Velaryon was as old as Prince Daeron - he was a true leader of men, a king in the making, but Daeron failed at Tumbleton. We can be reasonably sure that there would have been no brutal sack nor infighting if a true leader had been there.

I wasn't comparing Daeron to Jace. I was replying to your statement that Rhaenyra was "light years better than all her half-brothers". Daeron may have done better, but I don't think that we can dismiss what he did. He single-handedly won battles, he was the first to confront Hugh... Considering he was only 15, I don't think it's really fair to say that Rhaenyra was "much stronger than Daeron" and "light years" better than him.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra was never a champion of women's right or other such nonsense.

Of course. I don't think anyone is claiming that.

I was just stressing that history paints Rhaenyra in such a bad light that future women are prevented from ruling just because of the "memories of the woes that had befallen the realm when last a woman sat the Iron Throne". For a hundred years after her death "Maegor's teats", a curse referring to her, was common amongst Kingslanders. And in the series we have the super-strict Stannis, who insists on calling "ser" to his enemy Jaime Lannister because he refuses to lie, calls her "a traitor" who died "a traitor's death". That's not the legacy of someone who won.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

21 hours ago, James Steller said:

Rhaenyra is no Cersei.

I dunno, between forbidden bodyguard romance with implications of treason, attempt to pass three bastard sons for legal heirs, a bunch of self-sabotaging decisions and violent reprisals against the very people she needed the most... there is a bunch of parallels big and small. GRRM wasn't subtle about it

21 hours ago, James Steller said:

Her tragedy was that if she’d been born a boy, she would have had no problems being taken seriously in Westeros. But it didn’t matter how wise, capable, or brave she was, millions would reject her out of hand because she was a woman.

Eh, Cersei makes similar complaints and it rings hollow in both cases. Complicated legalities aside, Rhaenyra (and Cersei) march to their doom precisely because they are stupid, vile and incapable. Their poor qualities as people and as rulers catch up with them long before the whole "she was a woman" stick can.

To illustrate the point, let's take Lords Paramount and the whole Borros Baratheon debacle. There are seven LPs in all of Westeros. Yet it doesn't occur to Rhaenyra to keep in touch with Borros (who also happens to be her relative). There is no mention of Borros meeting any of Black leaders before. He is stranger. And in a feat of baffling arrogance they just presume to have his loyalty. There isn't even a bone for Borros - no dragon to stand with him, no royal ward, no marriage, zilch. Jeyen Arryn got a dragonrider; Tully was swayed by a dragonrider arriving in Riverlands; Stark got promises of marriage; Greyjoy got opportunity to murder, enslave, rape and steal. No wonder Borros dropped her like a hot potato. It wasn't about Rhaenyra's gender; her offer was just insulting.

But wait, there is more! Mere 12 pages before Lucerys' death (and three pages before his departure from Dragonstone) Rhaenyra is visited by Aegon II's envoy, Grand Maester Orwyle. Rhaenyra has Orwyle assaulted and robbed. Yet it doesn't occur to her or any of her advisers that - after such blatant disregard for envoy status - the safety of her own envoys might be in question. Mistreating a defenseless old man must have felt really awesome for Rhaenyra to risk her own sons' lives for it.

Madness. Madness and stupidity.

21 hours ago, James Steller said:

She wasn’t always a violent or malicious person like Cersei was (the girl who pushed her friend down a well). 

Rhaenyra wanted a 10-year-old tortured and had Vaemond brutally murdered for saying the obvious long before the Dance. It's pretty clear to me that Rhaenyra was no less violent and malicious than Cersei.

Edited by Myrish Lace

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I still think he was nastier than his elder brother. As I see it, Luce's murder is inexcusable and much worse than anything Aegon II did. And actually doing something is worse than celebrating. But your mileage may vary. :)

Aegon II had his half-sister brutally killed, burned hundreds of people who actually played a crucial role in driving Rhaenyra out of KL, he had a boy beheaded who may have been his half-brother while pardoning said boy's guardian and his thugs along with the master mind behind them (Larys Strong), he had a KG try to murder his half-sister or nephews, he started executing people at court, etc.

Aemond did cruel things as well, killing Luke, eradicating the Strongs, pointlessly burning castles and villages, etc., but unlike Aegon II Aemond really seemed to have had an anger management problem - he could not control himself when he was really angry. Aegon II, on the other hand, never overreacted. His ugly deeds are part of his day-to-day routine.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I wasn't comparing Daeron to Jace. I was replying to your statement that Rhaenyra was "light years better than all her half-brothers". Daeron may have done better, but I don't think that we can dismiss what he did. He single-handedly won battles, he was the first to confront Hugh... Considering he was only 15, I don't think it's really fair to say that Rhaenyra was "much stronger than Daeron" and "light years" better than him.

My point is that Rhaenyra - while not the greatest of leaders herself - was a much better leader than Daeron, because Daeron never led anyone. He just followed where other led. He never won any battles, either, considering that he himself admits that his dragon did. The comparison with Jace was supposed to illustrate that 14-15-year-olds really can and do lead men in this world - but Daeron 'the Daring' was not one of them. He was a failure in that department, and him failing there greatly contributed to the eventual defeat of the Greens. If Daeron had been able to take over the Hightower army, Aegon II would have won the Dance of the Dragons.

4 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I was just stressing that history paints Rhaenyra in such a bad light that future women are prevented from ruling just because of the "memories of the woes that had befallen the realm when last a woman sat the Iron Throne". For a hundred years after her death "Maegor's teats", a curse referring to her, was common amongst Kingslanders. And in the series we have the super-strict Stannis, who insists on calling "ser" to his enemy Jaime Lannister because he refuses to lie, calls her "a traitor" who died "a traitor's death". That's not the legacy of someone who won.

It is quite clear that Rhaenyra is not remembered fondly by the Kingslanders. But we know why this is the case - because she had tax them heavily because the Greens had emptied the treasury. The popularity of a ruler because of rather concrete policies has little to do with how a war went.

And as I said - Stannis is not some impartial observer here. His own ancestor, Borros Baratheon, was one of the main Green leaders and heavily involved both in the beginning and the end of the Dance. The chances that history classes at Storm's End paint a balanced view of the Dance are not that good - history classes at Winterfell and the Eyrie would also not paint Rhaenyra Targaryen as 'a traitor' because that would make Cregan Stark and Jeyne Arryn traitors, too.

And we do know that Aelora Targaryen was Princess of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne during the reign of King Aerys I. Apparently there were people who believe that women could and should inherit the Iron Throne even after the Dance of the Dragons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My Lords, my Ladies, honoured Sers,

Last evening I was sure I was going to give you Lord Larys Strong, the Clubfoot as the nastiest villain of the Dance. I did a quick re-read before posting and now I think he might need a category of his own :P

Aegon II, Alicent and Rhaenyra are really beyond stupid. They are spectacularly incompetent. And different degrees of nasty, but definitely all quite nasty as you have all pointed out already. Aemond is a comic book villain who is even nastier, but is generally away from court so we don't get to see up him close. Otto, Criston and Daemon  are close competition for all of the above.

But when it comes to really devious, deep cunning scum baggery and skull duggery, the Clubfoot stands apart. Granted, we will have taken a lot of insinuations as fact, as this Napoleon of low intrigue spins his web from behind the scenes, even from hiding. Let's look at his foul deeds as well as what else he is alleged to have to his 'credit'.

1. Allegedly had his father and brother murdered at Harrenhall.

2. Member of the green council that conspired to seize the throne from the late King's designated heir, murdering Lord Beesbury at the council meeting.

3. Allegedly spread the rumour about Rhaenyra presenting the toddler Maelor's head in a chamber pot to his mother.

4. May have influenced the Two Betrayers to switch sides at Tumbleton.

5. Likely spread the rumour Helaena was murdered.

6. Switched allegiance to (and was likely the mastermind behind) Ser Perkin the Flea's faction that took power in the Red Keep. Unclear what other role he played in destabilising KL.

7. Switched back to the Greens when Boros came knocking.

8. Switched to the Blacks when he conspired with Corlys (after lying to him Aegon II was going to have him killed) to assassinate Aegon II.

Now at the very end, you can say assassinating Aegon II was not a bad thing at all (even if you are a Green sympathiser), he was about to start carving up his nephew piece by piece to keep the Lads and Cregan's winterwolves at bay. Aegon II and Alicent had also proved themselves completely unworthy rulers by being unable to bring peace to the realm after Rhaenyra's death with their pettiness. The very fact that armies sworn to the Blacks were still taking to the field and marching on KL is proof of their complete lack of political ability.

So it's an irony that the crime Cregan accused Larys of in the end and had him executed him for was perhaps the one that redeems him from his litany of vile deeds that preceded it!

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2019 at 1:35 AM, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra is only considered a traitor by Stannis - whose own ancestor was a rather prominent Green and whose house actually suffered considerable for their mistaken allegiances during the Dance. His view on the matter is about as unbiased as Robb's view on whether his dear father was a traitor or not.

He is a dead man walking, and fingers crossed that he will die 'a traitor's death', too. Rhaenyra didn't actually die a 'traitor's death', considering she was fed to a dragon by some thugs, without a proper trial or sentence. Aegon II was no king while he did that. He was just some warlord.

Those things have nothing to do with the personality or story of the people involved. Alicent and Cersei are ambitious social climbers, while Rhaenyra was not. She was born to the purple, Alicent and Cersei are trying to cling to usurped power and they will fail.

Rhaenyra never tried to place anyone but herself on the Iron Throne. She never had any intention to abdicate in favor of any of her sons. The question of her own succession is never properly settled during her short reign.

Cersei doesn't have financial problems - the Iron Throne does. Cersei Lannister is the richest person in the Seven Kingdoms.

And unlike in Cersei's case, the parentage of Rhaenyra's sons is irrelevant. They are her sons no matter what - unlike Cersei's children which are not Robert's sons and thus have no claim to the throne.

Have you read FaB? She is the underdog before many lords of the Realm declare for her. Originally she has only the houses Stannis has at the beginning of the war, too. And like he she is betrayed by Storm's End

Catelyn was never a gold digger trying to incite her husband the king against his oldest child from a previous marriage. Alicent and Cersei's political lives are pretty much the same. They live with kings they do not love, they try to incite said kings against their families (brothers in Cersei's case, brother and daughter in Alicent's case), they conspire with their father to steal the throne, etc.

Chances even are that Cersei is going to get the same miserable death Alicent got - to see her children (and possibly her entire noble house) be destroyed before she herself is allowed to die.

In his quote Stannis talks about many different traitors, and he one of the rare characters that shows deliberation and waging of actions by other characters naming Jaime Lannister both Kingslayer and Ser in the same letter.

Rhaenyra was executed promptly as traitor, similarly the way she treated Sir Vaemond or Lord Otto Hightower executing them without trial. Aegon II was recognized as king by roughly half of Westeros at the time.

Cersei and Rhaenyra were both spoiled princesses, being daughter of Tywin Lannister one of the most powerful lords in the land doesn't require much social climbing, she also became the Queen of Westeros in her youth and her sons are supposed heirs if she made them with Robert.

Cersei supposes to rule as regent to whole of Westeros, debt of Iron Throne is tied to those who pretend to rule it.

For someone who post's here quite often, it would do you to have some rereads:

Quote

"A hasty coronation was held the next day. The arrival of Ser Steffon Darklyn, late of Aegon’s Kingsguard, was an occasion of much joy on Dragonstone, especially when it was learned that he and his fellow loyalists (“turncloaks,” Ser Otto would name them, when offering a reward for their capture) had brought the stolen crown of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. Three hundred sets of eyes looked on as Prince Daemon Targaryen placed the Old King’s crown on the head of his wife, proclaiming her Rhaenyra of House Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men. The prince claimed for himself the style Protector of the Realm, and Rhaenyra named her eldest son, Jacaerys, the Prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne."

Rhaenyra's heir was Jacaerys her firstborn child, when she crowned herself queen she named him prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne.

Parentage of children is very relevant, also they were bastards and her own family considered them such with enough to have it tip scale and some joining their cause and gathering enough support to start Civil War over it.

By her words if that was true, she would be committing high treason, only problem is that Westeros doesn't have parentage test, but judging from what Martin is written so far that is one of more certain things. 

Have you read F&B or you still stick to older material and  presumptions about that period since Your interest is recorded from the first mentions of material?

Rhaenyra has strongest navy ( Velaryon's of Stannis time aren't same as then), greatest number of Dragons, and gains support of Riverlands, Vale, North, Iron Islands, and lot of Reach houses join.

While Greens have Westerlands, Crownlands (though they often swap sides), Hightower and some of Reach, Triarchy joins later but looses while Velaryon still have 2/3rd's of their navy, Stormlands don't join in until it is too late and even then with mediocre number of soldiers.

Numbers of men dead in various battles are also off, since Blacks loose much more, but Greens give up without that much losses. I believe it is to fact that Dance is written in after the Asoiaf has been set up , so those House would still need to be powerful.

Alicent is from one of the wealthiest houses in the realm, her being as counselor and woman stricken with grief and wanting vengeance, but loving her family reminds me of fate of Catelyn and Stoneheart, though much more ambitious and vain person, that is my opinion, it may not be the fact, but Cersei and Rhaenyra are certainly more similar.
 

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

In his quote Stannis talks about many different traitors, and he one of the rare characters that shows deliberation and waging of actions by other characters naming Jaime Lannister both Kingslayer and Ser in the same letter.

Jaime Lannister is a dude he knows. It is clear that he doesn't give historical people the same consideration. He didn't talk about Princess Rhaenyra there, did he, or about Ser Daemon Blackfyre nor did he give the brothers Toyne the Sers they likely had, etc.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra was executed promptly as traitor, similarly the way she treated Sir Vaemond or Lord Otto Hightower executing them without trial. Aegon II was recognized as king by roughly half of Westeros at the time.

From what we know both Ser Vaemond and Otto Hightower and the others actually did get a trial. Ser Vaemond's death sentence may actually be decided not by Rhaenyra but by Lord Corlys considering he felt betrayed by his scheming and ambitious Velaryon nephews.

Aegon II was no longer a king the moment Rhaenyra sat the Iron Throne. People thought he was dead or didn't know where he was. People who are not there are not king of anything. There is a reason why half the Green army wanted to crown a new king - Daeron the Daring, Hard Hugh Hammer, Trystane Truefyre, etc.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Cersei and Rhaenyra were both spoiled princesses, being daughter of Tywin Lannister one of the most powerful lords in the land doesn't require much social climbing, she also became the Queen of Westeros in her youth and her sons are supposed heirs if she made them with Robert.

If you don't understand the difference of being born to the proper purple and just being a rich dude's daughter you don't understand the intricacies of rank in an aristocratic society.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra's heir was Jacaerys her firstborn child, when she crowned herself queen she named him prince of Dragonstone and heir to the Iron Throne.

Her presumed heir, not her formally installed heir. He died before she took the Iron Throne. I know she named him heir when she had her coronation on Dragonstone, but being an heir is not the same as being a king.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Parentage of children is very relevant, also they were bastards and her own family considered them such with enough to have it tip scale and some joining their cause and gathering enough support to start Civil War over it.

Nobody ever offered any proof for those calumnies, just as Stannis still doesn't have any proof for his claims. He doesn't know that he is 'the rightful heir'. He just wants to believe it.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

By her words if that was true, she would be committing high treason, only problem is that Westeros doesn't have parentage test, but judging from what Martin is written so far that is one of more certain things. 

This wouldn't be high treason. Just sleeping around.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra has strongest navy ( Velaryon's of Stannis time aren't same as then), greatest number of Dragons, and gains support of Riverlands, Vale, North, Iron Islands, and lot of Reach houses join.

Not at the beginning of the Dance. She first has to send her envoys and her consort has to take Harrenhal. Only then does she gain actual levies. The support of the houses who pledge themselves to Jacaerys come even later. Declarations mean little, what's important is whether actual men come. And they do come slowly.

31 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Alicent is from one of the wealthiest houses in the realm, her being as counselor and woman stricken with grief and wanting vengeance, but loving her family reminds me of fate of Catelyn and Stoneheart, though much more ambitious and vain person, that is my opinion, it may not be the fact, but Cersei and Rhaenyra are certainly more similar.

Catelyn loved her lord husband, too, who also was part of her family. Did Alicent Hightower ever love Viserys I, her husband and king?

And she is clearly one of the worst social climbers, being merely the daughter of a younger son of a previous Lord of Oldtown. She is not Tywin's daughter, she is Kevan's daughter, if one wants to compare them to the Lannisters of the main series. And Kevan's daughters are not exactly important, influential, or particularly wealthy. Her marrying the king is a huge accomplishment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fire and Blood made it pretty clear that we're supposed to be Team Rhaenyra, even if Rhaenyra isn't necessarily a hero. Jaehaerys passed a law forbidding the children of second wives from stealing the inheritance of the children of first wives, Viserys had half the lords of the realm swear to uphold his decree to have Rhaenyra as his designated heir, almost of all of the "hero houses" (Stark, Manderly, Blackwood, etc.) supported Rhaenyra's claim, and all of her children were established as likable and honorable. We're even told that in the last years of Alicent Hightower's life, after she'd gone mad with grief, she mourned everyone except for her late husband Viserys, implying that she really didn't care for him, and only married Viserys as a way of furthering her house's power. Maybe we can excuse her for that, given the way Westerosi society operates, but it still paints the Hightowers as manipulators. 

With that in mind, I would argue that Otto Hightower and Criston Cole are the two greatest villains of the Dance. Otto was Tywin with less finesse: he schemed his way to the top and did everything he could to install himself as the de-facto leader of Westeros. Criston Cole was motivated solely by his rage at being spurned by Rhaenyra (despite the fact that he was a sworn member of the kingsguard, and therefore bound to celibacy), and spent fifteen years of life determined to ruin her life in any way he could. He's the definition of an entitled man, and thousands of people died because of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ser Hedge said:

My Lords, my Ladies, honoured Sers,

Last evening I was sure I was going to give you Lord Larys Strong, the Clubfoot as the nastiest villain of the Dance. I did a quick re-read before posting and now I think he might need a category of his own :P

He definitely does. While he is certainly also a nod to a Varys as people who have no clue what he is about might judge him, he certainly is one of the filthiest players in the Dance. He is responsible for so much of the bloodshed simply by prolonging the war and setting people up to rule and fail (Trystane Truefyre, Aegon II himself, etc.).

And I still don't understand what he was about - an idea I'd have liked, and something that existed as a potential plot germ in an earlier manuscript version of the Dance which had more descendants of Jaehaerys I than just the children of Aemon, Baelon/Alyssa, Daella, and Saera is the idea that Larys Strong was about the Iron Throne himself. I really would have liked to see a third and fourth cadet branch of House Targaryen besides the families of the two main pretenders, siding with this or that faction throughout the war, ever trying to aggrandize themselves. This would have worked very well if George had bothered to give Jaehaerys I younger siblings and/or had given his children more descendants who lived into the Dance.

If George had made Lyonel Strong a grandson of Jaehaerys I through the female line the Clubfoot could have been driven by the desire to remove all his well-bred cousins by fueling their hatreds, preparing to claim the ultimate price himself once the rivals were all gone. And in a sense, such plans are still there with the puppet kings Trystane Truefyre and Aegon III - who, had Larys Strong not been arrested by Lord Cregan - would have eventually become the Clubfoot's third puppet (the restored Aegon II was Strong's puppet as well, having essentially no power over his own government).

55 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Fire and Blood made it pretty clear that we're supposed to be Team Rhaenyra, even if Rhaenyra isn't necessarily a hero. Jaehaerys passed a law forbidding the children of second wives from stealing the inheritance of the children of first wives, Viserys had half the lords of the realm swear to uphold his decree to have Rhaenyra as his designated heir, almost of all of the "hero houses" (Stark, Manderly, Blackwood, etc.) supported Rhaenyra's claim, and all of her children were established as likable and honorable.

It is not just those, but basically all her close allies as well, except Daemon. Corlys Velaryon, Rhaenys Targaryen, Addam and Alyn Velaryon.

55 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We're even told that in the last years of Alicent Hightower's life, after she'd gone mad with grief, she mourned everyone except for her late husband Viserys, implying that she really didn't care for him, and only married Viserys as a way of furthering her house's power. Maybe we can excuse her for that, given the way Westerosi society operates, but it still paints the Hightowers as manipulators. 

This is why I think we have to blame Alicent more for things than Otto. Yes, Otto would have been the guy to push his daughter to seduce and marry Viserys I, making her pawn rather than a player back in the 100s. But after Otto was dismissed as Hand and returned back to Oldtown until Viserys I recalled him in 120 AC, Queen Alicent became the leader of Hightower faction at court, and it seems she retained that position until the end. Unlike Tywin, Otto Hightower was never a powerful lord in his own right. Alicent Hightower became a queen consort and a Targaryen by marriage, giving her a much greater status than her father could ever hope to have. She is repeatedly referred to as the leader of the Green faction, just as her personal quarrel with Rhaenyra is both the root and the core of the entire conflict. Otto's issues Daemon seem to be secondary by comparison. Also, Criston Cole seems to have become Alicent's creature, not Otto's.

And while Otto quickly lost the favor of his new king, Aegon II, Alicent always remained the informal co-ruler of her sons, be it Aegon II or Aemond.

55 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Criston Cole was motivated solely by his rage at being spurned by Rhaenyra (despite the fact that he was a sworn member of the kingsguard, and therefore bound to celibacy), and spent fifteen years of life determined to ruin her life in any way he could. He's the definition of an entitled man, and thousands of people died because of it. 

Yeah, Cole is not only one of the worst people on the mere human level, but also responsible for many cruel acts during the Dance - the first murder of the war, the first proper executions of the war, the attempted murder of Rhaenyra/her sons via a Kingsguard, the sack of Duskendale and various other holdings in the Crownlands, the attempt to kill Rhaenyra/her sons/any other dragonriders by risking the life of his own king at Rook's Rest.

In general, another comment on the Vaemond Velaryon thing:

The guy was not only executed for repeating the calumnies about Rhaenyra's sons, he was also executed because he tried to steal the lordship of Driftmark from Corlys Velaryon's other descendants. Because after (and alongside) Laenor Velaryon's sons Laena Velaryon's daughters by Daemon Targaryen also had claims to Driftmark - claims that were much stronger than those of the oldest son of Corlys' younger brother.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And I still don't understand what he was about - an idea I'd have liked, and something that existed as a potential plot germ in an earlier manuscript version of the Dance which had more descendants of Jaehaerys I than just the children of Aemon, Baelon/Alyssa, Daella, and Saera is the idea that Larys Strong was about the Iron Throne himself.

Yes - Clubfoot is an intriguing character, not easy to comprehend especially with lack of POVs in F&B.

There are good arguments to be made for Otto and Alicent Hightower in terms of fomenting the coup and starting the Dance.  Regarding brutality of the war itself, probably Criston Cole or the Betrayers. If one could reduce everything to a pivotal turning point, it was definitely Aemond's kinslaying at Storm's End that made war inevitable. I have less sympathy for arguments blaming Rhaenyra. What she blameless? No, but she was named heir by the Viserys and affirmed by the nobility in 105 AC. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime Lannister is a dude he knows. It is clear that he doesn't give historical people the same consideration. He didn't talk about Princess Rhaenyra there, did he, or about Ser Daemon Blackfyre nor did he give the brothers Toyne the Sers they likely had, etc.

From what we know both Ser Vaemond and Otto Hightower and the others actually did get a trial. Ser Vaemond's death sentence may actually be decided not by Rhaenyra but by Lord Corlys considering he felt betrayed by his scheming and ambitious Velaryon nephews.

Aegon II was no longer a king the moment Rhaenyra sat the Iron Throne. People thought he was dead or didn't know where he was. People who are not there are not king of anything. There is a reason why half the Green army wanted to crown a new king - Daeron the Daring, Hard Hugh Hammer, Trystane Truefyre, etc.

If you don't understand the difference of being born to the proper purple and just being a rich dude's daughter you don't understand the intricacies of rank in an aristocratic society.

Her presumed heir, not her formally installed heir. He died before she took the Iron Throne. I know she named him heir when she had her coronation on Dragonstone, but being an heir is not the same as being a king.

Nobody ever offered any proof for those calumnies, just as Stannis still doesn't have any proof for his claims. He doesn't know that he is 'the rightful heir'. He just wants to believe it.

This wouldn't be high treason. Just sleeping around.

Not at the beginning of the Dance. She first has to send her envoys and her consort has to take Harrenhal. Only then does she gain actual levies. The support of the houses who pledge themselves to Jacaerys come even later. Declarations mean little, what's important is whether actual men come. And they do come slowly.

Catelyn loved her lord husband, too, who also was part of her family. Did Alicent Hightower ever love Viserys I, her husband and king?

And she is clearly one of the worst social climbers, being merely the daughter of a younger son of a previous Lord of Oldtown. She is not Tywin's daughter, she is Kevan's daughter, if one wants to compare them to the Lannisters of the main series. And Kevan's daughters are not exactly important, influential, or particularly wealthy. Her marrying the king is a huge accomplishment.

I am rather loath to keep replying to someone who even confronted with written evidence just skimms over those as trivial details and holds on his own head canon.

Stannis isn't obsessed with Rhaenyra or other named traitors, but he seems to be by what is just in his own mind. He is certain to have more grudge toward Lannisters than ancient feud, even then Baratheon's were more close to Black branch with Rhaenys.

There are absolutely no mentions of any sort of trials for captured Greens during very short Rhaenyra's reign, and also Lord Corlys since he was ill it is unlikely that he had anything to do with execution of his cousin and feeding his corpse to dragon.

Rhaenyra wasn't either sitting the Iron Throne at the time, she even sold her crown to buy for escape, Aegon did capture Dragonstone ancient seat of the house, so he was certainly lord of that at the time.

I don't understand even half of the expression you use , to me it looks like you are relying too much on shade of evening purple juices.

Cersei became Queen with 18 years and is Robert's queen for 14 years until his death and  children were presumed heirs to the Iron Throne uncontested until the revelation made by members of Small Council. 

She named her firstborn her heir when she crowned herself for Queen on Dragonstone, it doesn't get anymore specific that get, I don't tend to even consider Your absurd argument that it is irrelevant until she conquered the throne, because of many of her actions in enforcing them as her heirs.

Lot of lords would disagree, and second branch who had dragons too.

Rhaenyra was supposed Underdog for a few months if so, that is until even real battles started, that isn't also counting corrupted Goldcloaks and criminal elements of King's Landing that were also on Black sides.

Catlyn has pov chapter , we don't have such for any of the F&B characters. 

It is You who are comparing Alicent and Cersei not me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Both sides had their share of villains, people talk mostly of the Green side here in them only who can be considered as truly one is Aemond.

Most prominent Black villains are Daemon and Rhaenyra, with one ordering one of most loathsome crimes in the series, scheming his way to the top of Targaryen inheritance by whatever means, corrupting any sort of organisation or institution, wishing to place the Betrayers instead of Lannisters and Baratheons possibly desolving any semblance of order in the Kingdom.

Rhaenyra is more pathetic sort of villain, though one none the less. She ordered people to death and asked for torture of children even before any conflict started which puts in doubt her own tragedies hardening her heart.

 Noble men like Tyland, and even her own allies. Most vile period of history so far  in the King's Landing happened during her governance of the city, she never expressed regret for the deaths of children of her Targaryen family. Citizens of Kings Landing likened her rule to that of Maegor and other numerous examples.

Most of all her being the rightful heir doesn't excuse even a small part of her crimes, and even that was disputed rightly so by decisions of Great Council, traditions and laws of succession, having bastard children and trying to place them as heirs to the throne. 

Her own example of being chosen as heir for the explicit reason that Deamon wouldn't rule which was negated by them marrying later which would be to detriment of the realm, and clearly shown incompetence during her short reign.

Edited by Eltharion21

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

I am rather loath to keep replying to someone who even confronted with written evidence just skimms over those as trivial details and holds on his own head canon.

Be my guest. Discussing things with you usually leads nowhere.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis isn't obsessed with Rhaenyra or other named traitors, but he seems to be by what is just in his own mind. He is certain to have more grudge toward Lannisters than ancient feud, even then Baratheon's were more close to Black branch with Rhaenys.

Who cares about Stannis' mind? The man is a liar and hypocrite. He has no proof that Cersei's children are not Robert's, just as he has no proof that Shireen is his child. Hair color proves nothing. Yet he presumes to move against children he treated as his nephews and niece his entire life the moment his brother closed his eyes. That's disgusting - as is him sleeping around with the foreign priestess-sorceress, using her magics as a means to kill his brother and a loyal man protecting his nephew from his 'care'. He stoops as low as to lie to the entire North about burning Mance Rayder. He preaches justice and delivers injustice when nobody looks (and it profits him).

Stannis is also quite sure that Cersei murdered Jon Arryn - if the man is wrong about then I'm sure we can trust his 'judgment' of historical figures he only knows through history classes given him by Cressen.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

There are absolutely no mentions of any sort of trials for captured Greens during very short Rhaenyra's reign, and also Lord Corlys since he was ill it is unlikely that he had anything to do with execution of his cousin and feeding his corpse to dragon.

The treason of the men Rhaenyra executed was obvious. There was no need for trials (Nettles and Alyn Velaryon excluded, of course).

Corlys Velaryon sees his dear nephews as traitors. He had no issue with them being executed. And as far as we know rebels don't get proper trials. Vaemond condemned himself by doing what his king had explicitly forbidden, making things much worse for him by not only repeating what was forbidden, but also by using that as a means to try to steal what wasn't his.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra wasn't either sitting the Iron Throne at the time, she even sold her crown to buy for escape, Aegon did capture Dragonstone ancient seat of the house, so he was certainly lord of that at the time.

A usurper - and Aegon II was a usurper - killing his rightful monarch isn't a proper execution. For that he would have to actually establish himself as the proper and rightful monarch. But that wasn't done before he had his half-sister killed.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Cersei became Queen with 18 years and is Robert's queen for 14 years until his death and  children were presumed heirs to the Iron Throne uncontested until the revelation made by members of Small Council. 

No such revelation ever happened. Ned could have revealed it, but he botched it. Stannis only has 'the evidence in his own head'.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

She named her firstborn her heir when she crowned herself for Queen on Dragonstone, it doesn't get anymore specific that get, I don't tend to even consider Your absurd argument that it is irrelevant until she conquered the throne, because of many of her actions in enforcing them as her heirs.

It matters, because the Dance of the Dragons has nothing to do with Rhaenyra's succession. It was about the succession of Viserys I. Nobody in the Realm had a problem with Jacaerys Velaryon's character or personality, and nobody rose against Rhaenyra because of the rumors of the parentage of her children.

Even the Green Council wasn't sure about whether they loathed 'the Strongs' because of their parentage or because gay Laenor was their father and they would continue his wanton ways because they were his seed. Those are all ridiculous arguments brought forth by ambitious and malevolent pricks.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Lot of lords would disagree, and second branch who had dragons too.

Care to give quotes about those lots of lords?

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra was supposed Underdog for a few months if so, that is until even real battles started, that isn't also counting corrupted Goldcloaks and criminal elements of King's Landing that were also on Black sides.

The reason why we are discussing this is that this underdog position makes Rhaenyra more like Stannis. Apparently you agree with that now.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Catlyn has pov chapter , we don't have such for any of the F&B characters.

We do have strong evidence that Alicent Hightower never loved her husband and king. We don't need her POV for that. And, to be clear, I thought Alicent was more her father's pawn for years. I thought there was a good chance that she loved her husband, felt mistreated and overlooked by him, having some real justified concerns. But as it turns out she apparently only seduced and married the man to get power and prestige for herself, her children, her father and brothers. That puts her squarely in 'villain territory'.

24 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

It is You who are comparing Alicent and Cersei not me.

The point was to illustrate that Alicent was even more a social climber than Cersei - Cersei was the daughter of one of the greatest lords of Westeros. For her the jump to queen was not that far. But Alicent essentially put up from the gutters by Viserys I. She was the daughter of a second son of the Lord of Oldtown. While her father served as Hand she could, perhaps, expect to make a great match with some heir of a great house, but by right of birth and station of both herself her normal matches would be younger sons of the Hightower bannermen or, perhaps, the household knights and heirs of petty lords sworn to Oldtown.

Normally, Alicent Hightower should expect as great a match as Daeron Velaryon, the father of Queen Daenaera - and he married a Harte.

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Most prominent Black villains are Daemon and Rhaenyra, with one ordering one of most loathsome crimes in the series, scheming his way to the top of Targaryen inheritance by whatever means, corrupting any sort of organisation or institution, wishing to place the Betrayers instead of Lannisters and Baratheons possibly desolving any semblance of order in the Kingdom.

While Daemon is a rather dark character, there is essentially no proof that he did any of the fouls deeds people lay at his feet during the reign of Viserys I. There is no proof that he murdered Laenor or the Strongs, just unconfirmed rumors. Chances are not that bad that he seduced Rhaenyra only because he hoped to marry her to become prince consort at her side - but even that's unclear because we never get his POV.

What's quite clear that the guy sucked at everything he did if he was truly about power because he never got any by those alleged schemes. Which could imply that he is actually guilty in (m)any of them.

Ran has made a pretty convincing case that this nonsense about Daemon wishing to give the Two Betrayers Casterly Rock and Storm's End was just that - slanderous nonsense. There is no direct/good source for this claim, and the fact that he just suggested and failed at convincing Rhaenyra to grant them Stokeworth and Rosby through marriage makes it rather unlikely that he would come up with such unrealistic nonsense.

But that he was an ass goes without saying.

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Rhaenyra is more pathetic sort of villain, though one none the less. She ordered people to death and asked for torture of children even before any conflict started which puts in doubt her own tragedies hardening her heart.

As I told you, she demanded the torture of Aemond to find out where his treason came from only after Alicent demanded the mutilation of Lucerys - something you apparently have no issue with.

Putting traitors to death is the right of both a monarch and a ruling lord - which Rhaenyra was both as queen and Princess of Dragonstone.

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Noble men like Tyland, and even her own allies.

Tyland deserved what he got. He was a traitor and should have died a traitor's death.

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Most vile period of history so far  in the King's Landing happened during her governance of the city, she never expressed regret for the deaths of children of her Targaryen family. Citizens of Kings Landing likened her rule to that of Maegor and other numerous examples.

Who cares what the rabble think? One day they love you, the other day they try to kill you. Just as they love and kill your dragons. There is no reason why Rhaenyra should publicly pretend to feel remorse over the deaths of children she did not authorize to kill. Especially not children she likely did not particularly care for, anyway.

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Most of all her being the rightful heir doesn't excuse even a small part of her crimes, and even that was disputed rightly so by decisions of Great Council, traditions and laws of succession, having bastard children and trying to place them as heirs to the throne.

This is all irrelevant because nobody actually rebelled against King Viserys I during his lifetime, nor did anyone dare to challenge the king's right to name his own successor.

You would have a case if Viserys I had executed half or his entire council when he tried to name Rhaenyra his heir, replacing them with yes-men to get through with that. Sort of like Maegor had to execute a string of septons to find one who married him to Tyanna in 43 AC. But this didn't happen, did it?

27 minutes ago, Eltharion21 said:

Her own example of being chosen as heir for the explicit reason that Deamon wouldn't rule which was negated by them marrying later which would be to detriment of the realm, and clearly shown incompetence during her short reign.

Well, if Viserys I had had issues with that, he could have changed the succession after Rhaenyra had married her uncle, no? The only opinion that matters on the succession is the king's.

In general:

Regardless how one plays this - with the Black side being the guys in the right, the guys who didn't start the war, the guys who didn't shed the first blood, the guys who nearly always reacted to Green aggression, we have to conclude even the worst people on the Black side look actually pretty good.

They always have the fact that they fight for the just cause on their side. Combine that with the fact that there are literally no brutal sacks commanded/done by any Blacks, that Blacks only commit atrocities in retaliation to Green aggression (this even includes the Ironborn considering they only invaded the West after the West invaded the Riverlands) the Greens look rather bad collectively. The Greens are to be blamed for the sacks of Duskendale, Bitterbridge, Spicetown, High Tide, and Tumbleton - and in part for the riots in KL.

Decent Greens are very few - and those people we scarcely know: Rickard Thorne, Grover Tully (I guess), Jason Lannister (if we count him as Green), one assumes the other Westermen mentioned, and with some caveats, Marston Waters, Grand Maester Orwyle (if we count him as Green), and, perhaps, Borros Baratheon (I'd say he was also a coward and a fool, but not exactly cruel guy). Aside from those most Greens mentioned are either turncloaks, brutal/savage/cruel people, or people involved in the original coup which makes them all traitors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×