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James Steller

Who was the Biggest Villain of the Dance?

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9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree.

He saved the Targaryen dynasty from the Faith. Yes, this is true. But let's not forget that the war against the Faith was not entirely one-sided.

He should've stepped down when Aegon and Rhaena pressed their claims and asked to be named the Prince of Dragonstone and/or Hand of the King. Naming Aerea as his heir is ludicrous considering that Aerea was the rightful Queen in the first place...AFTER Maegor killed her father.

Maegor did not have the best claim.

Aegon had the best claim. Then it was Aerea and then Rhaella. Then Viserys, Jaehaerys, Rhaena and Alysanne in that order. Only after Alysanne, did Maegor have a claim. So that made Maegor 8th in line. The only person that has a weaker claim than Maegor is Visenya, his mother.

And even she would've been a better ruler.

Maegor won trial of 7. So new gods seemed to accept M as a king. Another thing is that there are no any inheritance laws that would tell us who should be next king. Or anyone who disagreed with his claim could try to argue with his lawyer Balerion. After all that WoMD had already made one man with even weaker claim as a king.

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11 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Maegor won trial of 7. So new gods seemed to accept M as a king. Another thing is that there are no any inheritance laws that would tell us who should be next king. Or anyone who disagreed with his claim could try to argue with his lawyer Balerion. After all that WoMD had already made one man with even weaker claim as a king.

The new gods aren't real. Well, maybe the Stranger is in a fashion but the others are not. Or if they are, they have no real power.

R'hllor, the old gods and the Many-Faced God Death are the ones that matter, the ones with power.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2019 at 9:02 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree.

He saved the Targaryen dynasty from the Faith. Yes, this is true. But let's not forget that the war against the Faith was not entirely one-sided.

He and/or Aegon could also have made peace with the Faith. End their polygamy and incest nonsense. There were other ways to deal with the Faith than all-out war.

Quote

Aegon had the best claim. Then it was Aerea and then Rhaella. Then Viserys, Jaehaerys, Rhaena and Alysanne in that order. Only after Alysanne, did Maegor have a claim. So that made Maegor 8th in line. The only person that has a weaker claim than Maegor is Visenya, his mother.

It is not clear whether people thought Maegor should come before or after the Conqueror's granddaughters. Some argued that he came only after Rhaena and later also Alysanne, others that he came before them. Visenya tried to settle this issue by marrying Maegor to Rhaena.

But it is quite clear that everybody in Westeros thought Maegor came only after Aegon, Viserys, and Jaehaerys. This only changed after Maegor - then the rider of Balerion (which he wasn't back during his father's reign) - had already usurped the throne. Only then were people starting to dismiss Aegon as 'the Pretender' and 'the Uncrowned'. And that was most likely because many people simply didn't dare defy Maegor openly.

And after Aegon the Uncrowned's death there were also those who thought that Aerea and Rhaella were the rightful heirs, coming instead/before both Maegor and Jaehaerys I.

 

Edited by Lord Varys

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On 6/24/2019 at 7:28 AM, Loose Bolt said:

Maegor won trial of 7. So new gods seemed to accept M as a king. Another thing is that there are no any inheritance laws that would tell us who should be next king. Or anyone who disagreed with his claim could try to argue with his lawyer Balerion. After all that WoMD had already made one man with even weaker claim as a king.

No, there were inheritance laws in the sense that both King Aegon I and his son and successor King Aenys I had chosen and anointed heirs. The Conqueror chose and anointed his eldest son Aenys, and King Aenys chose and anointed his eldest son, Aegon. People knew who the next in line was. And we also know that the Conqueror himself had confirmed the existing succession laws in the Seven Kingdoms during his reign which, for the most part, would have revolved around male primogeniture, i.e. that a father is followed by his oldest trueborn son.

You are right that Maegor's victory in the Trial of Seven helped him establish that he was king now, but this only happened after he had already usurped the crown. After all, he crowned himself back on Dragonstone and not only after he had won the Trial of Seven.

21 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The new gods aren't real. Well, maybe the Stranger is in a fashion but the others are not. Or if they are, they have no real power.

R'hllor, the old gods and the Many-Faced God Death are the ones that matter, the ones with power.

Oh, I think the Seven are as real as the others. Davos sees something on his rock in the Narrow Sea, doesn't he? He has as much reason to buy that the Seven spoke to him than Melisandre has that a deity called R'hllor is showing her visions in the fire. People believing religious doctrine doesn't tell us anything about the actual existence of the divine beings behind the doctrine.

But Maegor winning the Trial of Seven certainly helped him establish that the Seven were not opposed to his rule. That dealt a significant blow to the cause of the Faith Militant and the High Septon - at least until Maegor burned the Sept of Remembrance without provocation. That certainly helped him establish his reputation as a false king and tyrant. After all, he didn't give them an ultimatum. He just woke up, jumped his dragon, and burned them all.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, there were inheritance laws in the sense that both King Aegon I and his son and successor King Aenys I had chosen and anointed heirs. The Conqueror chose and anointed his eldest son Aenys, and King Aenys chose and anointed his eldest son, Aegon. People knew who the next in line was. And we also know that the Conqueror himself had confirmed the existing succession laws in the Seven Kingdoms during his reign which, for the most part, would have revolved around male primogeniture, i.e. that a father is followed by his oldest trueborn son.

To me it seemed that Aenys almost lost his throne and Maegor and his mother reconquered kingdoms.

In fact I suspect that only Targs who had both means and will to fight back were Maegor and Visenya. King Aenys seemed totally incapable of doing anything useful and his children were either too young or just hiding to save themselves.

So Maegor had same right to his crown as his late father. After all both gained their crowns with fire and blood.

22 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

R'hllor, the old gods and the Many-Faced God Death are the ones that matter, the ones with power.

Actually 7 have millions of followers in their flock in Westeros, when that fire demon has only thousands and Many Faced God even less . Old gods are not active political power either. So for anyone who are worried about their reputation among people and want to have less problems should try to evade making septons and septas angry. Or the Faith has real power in Westeros.

Another thing is that we do not actually know how much power any supernatural powers have, bc they do not work for free. Or anytime something odd happens somebody had to sacrify something to pay that "miracle". So it is possible that laws of nature are different in Planetos and "gods" are just a way to try to understand how those work. 

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11 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

To me it seemed that Aenys almost lost his throne and Maegor and his mother reconquered kingdoms.

One can make such a case - and I made that in the past - but FaB made it pretty clear that Maegor and Visenya both saw Maegor as a successor of Aenys and Aegon. And Maegor did present himself as his father's son when he demanded fealty and homage from the lords, etc.

But I certainly agree that King Aenys effectively abandoning KL and the Iron Throne did not exactly help the cause Aegon the Uncrowned later on.

11 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

In fact I suspect that only Targs who had both means and will to fight back were Maegor and Visenya. King Aenys seemed totally incapable of doing anything useful and his children were either too young or just hiding to save themselves.

Well, Aegon was not hiding. He was besieged by the Poor Fellows. He lacked the means to challenge his traitorous usurping uncle at once, but he did barely a year after Maegor's usurpation.

11 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

So Maegor had same right to his crown as his late father. After all both gained their crowns with fire and blood.

If you go by that logic then everything is permitted - which it is not. Renly trying to usurp the crowns of Joffrey/Tommen/Stannis is seen as wrong. It doesn't change that you can successfully pull something like that off, but it does mean you basically break a lot of rules when doing so.

And Maegor actually had no interest handing the throne to some strong/treacherous dude after his death. He wanted a son of his own body as heir, and while he didn't have any such heirs he had his brother's children and grandchildren as presumptive heirs.

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On 6/23/2019 at 2:02 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

I agree.

He saved the Targaryen dynasty from the Faith. Yes, this is true. But let's not forget that the war against the Faith was not entirely one-sided.

He should've stepped down when Aegon and Rhaena pressed their claims and asked to be named the Prince of Dragonstone and/or Hand of the King. Naming Aerea as his heir is ludicrous considering that Aerea was the rightful Queen in the first place...AFTER Maegor killed her father.

Maegor did not have the best claim.

Aegon had the best claim. Then it was Aerea and then Rhaella. Then Viserys, Jaehaerys, Rhaena and Alysanne in that order. Only after Alysanne, did Maegor have a claim. So that made Maegor 8th in line. The only person that has a weaker claim than Maegor is Visenya, his mother.

And even she would've been a better ruler.

WrongThe eldest child of the eldest child, that was the lawful determining factor, Jaehaerys is little more than another usurper.

 

Maegor usurped the throne because his brother and his nephews clearly did not have the strength and resolve to put down the Faith's rebellion like it needed to be, and only after the dirty work was completed did the cowardly piece of shit on Quicksilver try and take his throne.

 

The biggest mistake Maegor made was not burning Oldtown to cinders alongside his mother. Second biggest was excessive brutality to Viserys. Thats it.

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On 6/25/2019 at 10:55 AM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think the Seven are as real as the others. Davos sees something on his rock in the Narrow Sea, doesn't he? He has as much reason to buy that the Seven spoke to him than Melisandre has that a deity called R'hllor is showing her visions in the fire. People believing religious doctrine doesn't tell us anything about the actual existence of the divine beings behind the doctrine.

But Maegor winning the Trial of Seven certainly helped him establish that the Seven were not opposed to his rule. That dealt a significant blow to the cause of the Faith Militant and the High Septon - at least until Maegor burned the Sept of Remembrance without provocation. That certainly helped him establish his reputation as a false king and tyrant. After all, he didn't give them an ultimatum. He just woke up, jumped his dragon, and burned them all.

No, I completely disagree.

Davos does have just as much reason to believe in the Seven. But Melisandre's god, R'hllor, gives her power and knowledge.

On 6/30/2019 at 5:17 PM, Vashon said:

WrongThe eldest child of the eldest child, that was the lawful determining factor, Jaehaerys is little more than another usurper.

 

Maegor usurped the throne because his brother and his nephews clearly did not have the strength and resolve to put down the Faith's rebellion like it needed to be, and only after the dirty work was completed did the cowardly piece of shit on Quicksilver try and take his throne.

 

The biggest mistake Maegor made was not burning Oldtown to cinders alongside his mother. Second biggest was excessive brutality to Viserys. Thats it.

If the eldest child of the eldest child is the lawful determining factor, then Prince Aegon the Uncrowned should have been King Aegon II of House Targaryen after his father King Aenys died.

And then after Aegon was killed in battle by Maegor, then the Iron Throne and the Seven Kingdoms will then pass to Aerea, making her Queen of the Andals and the First Men and the Lady of the Seven Kingdoms.

Jaehaerys is an usurper. But so is Maegor and Maegor is the worst out of the two fo them. He should have immediately stepped aside or made a counteroffer when Aegon the Uncrowned became of age and embraced his birthright.

While I think burning Oldtown would have been an even bigger mistake on Maegor's part, I do think that the Starry Sept should have been burned alongside the Sept of Remembrance.

Maegor wasn't just excessively brutal to Viserys, he was excessively brutal with everyone for no real reason whatsoever. When Prince Aegon left the West for King's Landing, Maegor should have abdicated the throne in favor of some concessions:

  1. that he, Maegor, be named the Prince of Dragonstone and given dominion over all the islands in Blackwater Bay
  2. that he, Maegor, be named the Hand of the King

That is all.

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It seems to me that once Maegor had taken the crown there was no going back for him. If he had surrendered that crown to Prince Aegon then the many people who were against him would be free to seek the new king's favor to harm Maegor while his old friends would abandon him seeing has he essentially wasn't someone to count on or stake your future on.

So in essence I think that Maegor had to many enemies and not enough of a hold on a King Aegon II to ensure that taking off the crown wasn't essentially signing his own death sentence a few years from then. After all it is most often very, very dangerous for a ruler to leave possible claimants alive in the kingdom and since Maegor had once claim the crown on his own, odds were that he could try that again. Hence King Aegon II might think that a safely dead Maegor, which would also bring in popularity points to him, would be better than a possible dangerous Maegor who might also be a PR burden for the new ruler's House.

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Alicient, Otto and Aemond for me

 

Alicient- started the whle thing when Aegon was born

Otto- pushed it further because he wanted daemon out of the way

Aemond- legit made it untenable when he kill luke 

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OP

I haven’t fully read the book but I ve seen an in-depth review of the early chapters. I don’t like how they decided to make Visenya a monster. It feels unnecessary to make the warrior queen Targaryen a piece of work. There’s an aweful lot of “women of Britain, know your place” behind that. I don’t see why every Targaryen woman who isn’t being locked up in a tower has to break bad.

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On 7/29/2019 at 1:42 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

OP

I haven’t fully read the book but I ve seen an in-depth review of the early chapters. I don’t like how they decided to make Visenya a monster. It feels unnecessary to make the warrior queen Targaryen a piece of work. There’s an aweful lot of “women of Britain, know your place” behind that. I don’t see why every Targaryen woman who isn’t being locked up in a tower has to break bad.

Visenya isn't a monster. She is actually not a particularly flashed out character. There is not even particularly good evidence that she actually poisoned King Aenys, the thing she is somewhat more openly associated with in TWoIaF. There is some talk about her becoming a more bitter and cold person later in life, and more obsessed with sorcery and the like after her physical strength waned in old age.

But she isn't a monster, she didn't push her son into or was directly involved in Maegor killing any of his nephews (she isn't there when Maegor kills Aegon the Uncrowned and she is already dead when he has Viserys tortured and killed). She also convinced Maegor to pardon crucial lords siding with Aegon the Uncrowned after the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye.

And back in her youth/middle age she was clearly the champion of House Targaryen, saving Aegon's life, creating the Kingsguard, etc.

Thus one should describe her as a rather complex grey character who is in desperate need to be flashed out some more in comparison to some of the other characters in FaB not so much as a monster.

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Visenya isn't a monster. She is actually not a particularly flashed out character. There is not even particularly good evidence that she actually poisoned King Aenys, the thing she is somewhat more openly associated with in TWoIaF. There is some talk about her becoming a more bitter and cold person later in life, and more obsessed with sorcery and the like after her physical strength waned in old age.

But she isn't a monster, she didn't push her son into or was directly involved in Maegor killing any of his nephews (she isn't there when Maegor kills Aegon the Uncrowned and she is already dead when he has Viserys tortured and killed). She also convinced Maegor to pardon crucial lords siding with Aegon the Uncrowned after the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye.

And back in her youth/middle age she was clearly the champion of House Targaryen, saving Aegon's life, creating the Kingsguard, etc.

Thus one should describe her as a rather complex grey character who is in desperate need to be flashed out some more in comparison to some of the other characters in FaB not so much as a monster.

I felt George was going very Nero with Maegor and with Visenya as the ambitious mother who tried to usurp the children Aegon had with Rhaella. Which was the woman Aegon actually loved whereas he grew increasingly distrustful of Visenya towards the end of his reign. Not to mention the clear comparison between Cersei and Joffrey.

Its also implied that she threatened to kill the arryn boy unless the Vale surrendered. 

The counterpoints to this are limited to saving Aegons life and creating the Kingsguard. These really don’t offset the bad.

Plus it’s the fact that the bad is implied to be a direct consequence of her being somebody who wanted her place in the sun. Whereas Rhaella is depicted as the cheery, happy girly one and is essentially martyred by the Dornish. A woman who deserved to be loved and a true Queen to Aegon and the realm; by never asking for anything for herself. 

Theres a lot of moralising going on with those two. The subtext being, Dany should be more like Rhaella and less like Visenya.

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12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I felt George was going very Nero with Maegor and with Visenya as the ambitious mother who tried to usurp the children Aegon had with Rhaella. Which was the woman Aegon actually loved whereas he grew increasingly distrustful of Visenya towards the end of his reign. Not to mention the clear comparison between Cersei and Joffrey.

It is actually Rhaenys, not Rhaella. But I agree in principle that the narrative of the relationship between Aegon and his sister-wives is not exactly a particularly innovative or interesting story.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Its also implied that she threatened to kill the arryn boy unless the Vale surrendered. 

That is not really implied - but even if it were implied it would have been part of the war. Rhaenys threatened Meria Martell, too, and later did bring fire and blood to Dorne repeatedly. Aegon burned down hundreds of people at Harrenhal - possibly thousands - so I don't see Visenya as particularly singled out as a problematic person here.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

The counterpoints to this are limited to saving Aegons life and creating the Kingsguard. These really don’t offset the bad.

Plus it’s the fact that the bad is implied to be a direct consequence of her being somebody who wanted her place in the sun. Whereas Rhaella is depicted as the cheery, happy girly one and is essentially martyred by the Dornish. A woman who deserved to be loved and a true Queen to Aegon and the realm; by never asking for anything for herself. 

There are hints that Visenya indulging Maegor is a more complex issue. For one, he was her only child and born rather late in life when she may have essentially expected to never have a child at all. This could have made their bond much stronger than it would have been under normal circumstances.

Furthermore, there are also rather strong albeit subtle hints that King Aenys is not actually the son of Aegon the Conqueror - meaning that, if Visenya was aware of this fact, her support of Maegor looks less self-serving and egoistical than it would if Aenys was most definitely the son of Aegon the Conqueror. Rhaenys certainly is idealized as a saint after her early death in the mind of Aegon I, his son, and the smallfolk of Westeros, but she is also rumored to have been frivolous and to have entertained lovers. Also, she seems to have suffered from a milder version of the 'Targaryen madness' that's rather prevalent in many of her descendants. She is described as being changeable and prone to flights of fancy, etc. - something we see both in King Aenys and Queen Rhaena farther down the road.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Theres a lot of moralising going on with those two. The subtext being, Dany should be more like Rhaella and less like Visenya.

Dany is already more like Rhaenys than Visenya insofar as her character is concerned. Visenya is a hard woman, an actual warrior also fascinated/interested in magics, something Dany is definitely not. Dany is pretty playful with men, for instance, actually has a good sense of humor, etc.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is actually Rhaenys, not Rhaella. But I agree in principle that the narrative of the relationship between Aegon and his sister-wives is not exactly a particularly innovative or interesting story.

That is not really implied - but even if it were implied it would have been part of the war. Rhaenys threatened Meria Martell, too, and later did bring fire and blood to Dorne repeatedly. Aegon burned down hundreds of people at Harrenhal - possibly thousands - so I don't see Visenya as particularly singled out as a problematic person here.

There are hints that Visenya indulging Maegor is a more complex issue. For one, he was her only child and born rather late in life when she may have essentially expected to never have a child at all. This could have made their bond much stronger than it would have been under normal circumstances.

Furthermore, there are also rather strong albeit subtle hints that King Aenys is not actually the son of Aegon the Conqueror - meaning that, if Visenya was aware of this fact, her support of Maegor looks less self-serving and egoistical than it would if Aenys was most definitely the son of Aegon the Conqueror. Rhaenys certainly is idealized as a saint after her early death in the mind of Aegon I, his son, and the smallfolk of Westeros, but she is also rumored to have been frivolous and to have entertained lovers. Also, she seems to have suffered from a milder version of the 'Targaryen madness' that's rather prevalent in many of her descendants. She is described as being changeable and prone to flights of fancy, etc. - something we see both in King Aenys and Queen Rhaena farther down the road.

Dany is already more like Rhaenys than Visenya insofar as her character is concerned. Visenya is a hard woman, an actual warrior also fascinated/interested in magics, something Dany is definitely not. Dany is pretty playful with men, for instance, actually has a good sense of humor, etc.

 

Shes described as having the Arryn boy on her lap, dragon behind her and asking Lady Arryn to surrender. There’s an implicit threat here and at the very least “I have your son”.

Cersei loves her children as well. Morathi from Warhammer loves her children as well. It’s not actually a sympathetic trait as it’s very Lady Macbeth in how it’s done.

They would still have been her sisters children.

That could be interpreted as simply being the life and soul of the party. It’s a positive trait. Rumours being a key point.

Changeable and flights of fancy could simply be referring to her being very girly from the POV of a Maester. Plus it’s not in the league of Visenya looking into magic and having a crazy son.

For now. Dany is extremely young and her personality isn’t fixed. Dany has just embraced the idea of being a conqueror and she was actually all for wanting to lead the attack at Mereen. Plus the level of violence she has is more in line with Visenya than Rhaenys. Also, her creating the dragons and entering the House of the Undyingg involved magic so that element is there and only going river get stronger. Even earlier than this you have Jorah encouraging her to be more ruthless. So she might have been like Rhaenys now but her arc involves her becoming a dragon and a conquerer closer to Visenya. Her doing a Rhaegar and deciding she wants to be a Knight isn’t out if the question either; especially if George does a time skip.

Edited by Tyrion1991

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12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Shes described as having the Arryn boy on her lap, dragon behind her and asking Lady Arryn to surrender. There’s an implicit threat here and at the very least “I have your son”.

While there is this aspect, too, the real threat here is not to Ronnel Arryn but the threat to the Eyrie and Queen Sharra herself. Vhagar can fly up the Giant's Lance and reduce the Eyrie to a smoking ruin - that's the reason why Queen Sharra gave in, not so much because of her boy. Because, frankly, Visenya Targaryen had landed in the castle yard. Her dragon was there, too, but she herself was also vulnerable to attack by archers.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

They would still have been her sisters children.

Sure, but within the framework of the world this story takes place in Queen Rhaenys' bastard would not be eligible to the Iron Throne. The children Maegor later persecuted and killed where Queen Rhaenys' grandchildren, not her children. King Aenys had only a half-sibling in Maegor.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

That could be interpreted as simply being the life and soul of the party. It’s a positive trait. Rumours being a key point.

Changeable and flights of fancy could simply be referring to her being very girly from the POV of a Maester. Plus it’s not in the league of Visenya looking into magic and having a crazy son.

It is clear that if Aenys Targaryen was not the Conqueror's son then this must never have become publicly revealed and believed fact - because that would mean he wouldn't have succeeded Aegon the Conqueror as king and that his children would have faced considerable hardships justifying their own claims to the throne against Maegor - yet we have known since AGoT that King Aenys succeeded the Conqueror and Aenys' son Jaehaerys succeeded his uncle King Maegor.

It could mean that Rhaenys was just more girlish and the like, but it could also be the way the more problematic traits of the Targaryen bloodline are described when they don't manifest themselves as strongly as they do in others.

12 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

For now. Dany is extremely young and her personality isn’t fixed. Dany has just embraced the idea of being a conqueror and she was actually all for wanting to lead the attack at Mereen. Plus the level of violence she has is more in line with Visenya than Rhaenys. Also, her creating the dragons and entering the House of the Undyingg involved magic so that element is there and only going river get stronger. Even earlier than this you have Jorah encouraging her to be more ruthless. So she might have been like Rhaenys now but her arc involves her becoming a dragon and a conquerer closer to Visenya. Her doing a Rhaegar and deciding she wants to be a Knight isn’t out if the question either; especially if George does a time skip.

Dany is still a very feminine woman. She is neither a warrior nor even a proper general. She has made two sketchy battle plans and she knows how to persuade and convince men of her point of view, but she doesn't understand proper warfare yet. That certainly could change, but she is never going to become a proper warrior. She is both too small and delicate for that kind of thing nor inclined or willing to train at arms.

In that sense, Visenya is a completely different person. And you have to keep in mind that Rhaenys is as much of a Conqueror as Visenya or Aegon. She subdued the Stormlands, she flew above the Field of Fire, she burned Dorne until she was killed there, etc. You don't have to be a proper warrior-like woman to be a Conqueror.

I don't particularly like the fact that George essentially made all the female dragonriders very conventional women who failed to capitalize on or use her dragons in meaningful events - even Queen Rhaena doesn't do anything significant with Dreamfyre. As a dragonrider one doesn't have to be a warrior to actually use the dragon in war - which is why it sucks that neither Rhaena nor a daughter or granddaughter of Jaehaerys I or Rhaenyra during the Dance made use of their dragons in a war or violent conflict.

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I had no issues with how Targaryens were portrayed in Fire and Blood. It made the majority of them look ridiculous and at times the author appeared to be mocking them. 

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On 7/30/2019 at 9:11 AM, Lord Varys said:

I don't particularly like the fact that George essentially made all the female dragonriders very conventional women who failed to capitalize on or use her dragons in meaningful events - even Queen Rhaena doesn't do anything significant with Dreamfyre. As a dragonrider one doesn't have to be a warrior to actually use the dragon in war - which is why it sucks that neither Rhaena nor a daughter or granddaughter of Jaehaerys I or Rhaenyra during the Dance made use of their dragons in a war or violent conflict

I think this is because the smart thing is to not use your dragons and only keep them around as an implied threat. Barth states this and you can tell its in line with GRRM's own viewpoint on use of dragons. When dragons are used, more problems are caused later or they arrive at a stalemate. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think this is because the smart thing is to not use your dragons and only keep them around as an implied threat. Barth states this and you can tell its in line with GRRM's own viewpoint on use of dragons. When dragons are used, more problems are caused later or they arrive at a stalemate. 

Hmmm, in a war you have to use them, especially if the other side is also using them. There is no threat if war has already started.

I do like your dislike for the Targs tho, there're too many Targ sucker around here.

Edited by frenin

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