Jump to content
My La Liz

Red Flags: Dany = Meereen Nobles

Recommended Posts

Now that the series has concluded, I reviewed my complicated feelings about Dany and a few things from the early seasons stood out to me:

1) Mirri Maz Duur

Let’s be clear, Khal Drogo may have been hot and he was super badass, but he committed atrocities as a way of life. The Dothraki were the ultimate slavers – attacking, killing, raping, enslaving – it was literally their chosen way of life. Mirri Maz Duur was the godswife at a peaceful sheep-herding village. The Dothraki raided the village. They killed many people, they raped the women, and they enslaved all of the survivors. Dany interrupted Mirri’s fourth rape and “saved” her. Mirri had just watched her peaceful village attacked and the people she knew and loved slaughtered. She “heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips.” I think I can safely say that the Dothraki were Satan incarnate to her and everyone who was a victim of their violence. Did Dany try to help? Yes, she stopped the rape in progress, but that was a drop in the bucket to Mirri. Let’s put it this way, when the slaves in Essos rose up in multiple cities and killed the masters, did anyone have any concern for their noble wives who, like Dany, may not have had any control over what their husbands did? For all we know, some of the wives of the masters may have done far more to try to help the slaves being victimized by their husbands, but no one cared when they were slaughtered by the former slaves. People didn’t care because those women were profiting (willing or not) from the slavery system and were deemed guilty by association.  Just as I’m sure Mirri didn’t care about Dany because Dany was profiting from Dothraki enslaving others – she was guilty by association. Mirri was the victim of an atrocity and yet, people (including me) cheered Dany on when she burned her alive. When I look back at that situation, I am mortified by my reaction.

And before anyone says Mirri killed an innocent, unborn child, that’s not what we were shown on screen. Mirri may have deliberately worsened Khal Drogo’s infection, but Drogo straight up deserved anything she did to him. As Mirri began the magic to “save” Drogo, she very clearly and specifically told Dany to leave and that no one could enter the tent after it began because the dead would walk inside. Jorah flatly ignored this after Dany collapsed and he carried Dany right inside the tent. You want to blame someone for the death of Dany’s child? Put the blame where it belongs.

2) Mass Crucifixion of the Meereen Nobles

At the time, while I realized Dany’s actions were brutal, all I could think of was how outrageously cruel the crucifixion of children was. Looking back… I’m American. What if someone decided to punish me for the crimes of the US government on the grounds of me being complicit because I didn’t abandon my life and try to stage a revolution? What about Hizdahr’s father who spoke out against the crucifixion of the children? He did not succeed in stopping it, but he tried. Much like Dany tried to help Mirri, but did not succeed in stopping the atrocities the Dothraki committed in Lhazareen. Why is Mirri evil and deserving of being burned alive for not giving Dany a pass, but Dany is not evil for also refusing to give the complicit (but not directly responsible) nobles of Meereen a pass? I didn’t realize how closely these two situations corresponded before, but Dany was in the exact position of many Meereen nobles when she was with the Dothraki, i.e. complicit and directly profiting, but not directly responsible. How can Dany be justified in burning Mirri for the same crime she later commits, i.e. brutally punishing atrocity without regard for direct guilt?

3) Murder of a Potentially Innocent Meereen Noble

This one actually did bother me at the time. Dany literally said maybe none of you are guilty directly before having her dragons set a guy on fire and eat him. Think about that for a minute. Dany knowingly shoved a guy forward to be set on fire and eaten by dragons (while he was still on fire no less) and she admitted that he might be totally innocent of wrongdoing. Seriously? How is that okay? No, really, who does something like that?

And who is okay with someone doing something like that?

And yet, even though this bothered me at the time, I somehow blanked it out because it didn’t fit with my image of Dany.

In conclusion, those are three massive red flags that I ignored because I loved Dany. In Season 7, I felt betrayed when I realized Dany was not a good person, but how can I blame the writers when I ignored serious red flags? And yes, I mean Season 7, not Season 8… the writing was already on the wall at that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting.  We can all have knee-jerk reactions one way or another, but you have done some serious consideration here.  As one who did not have a problem with the final season (other than being rushed and needing at least 4 more episodes) I find this fascinating.  Will be waiting eagerly to hear what others may say and think.  Thanks!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I absolutely agree that the last season was rushed. I'll never understand the decision to go with 6 episodes instead of 10.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were a lot of other red flags actually. In season one she watches her brother being killed without batting an eye.. yes he was a bad person, but he was her brother, she grew up with him, she could have at least shed a tear, show an emotion, but not, she had that stare, the same stare she had everytime she killed someone, no emotion, and a slight fascination toward what was happening before her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, My La Liz said:

And before anyone says Mirri killed an innocent, unborn child, that’s not what we were shown on screen. Mirri may have deliberately worsened Khal Drogo’s infection, but Drogo straight up deserved anything she did to him. As Mirri began the magic to “save” Drogo, she very clearly and specifically told Dany to leave and that no one could enter the tent after it began because the dead would walk inside. Jorah flatly ignored this after Dany collapsed and he carried Dany right inside the tent. You want to blame someone for the death of Dany’s child? Put the blame where it belongs.

The books always said that Mirri is responsible, but all of those dragon babies that Targaryens had were stillborn or didn't survive anyway. It's very sketchy to me. Mirri in the show doesnt actually say she did it. She just basically said "I'm glad your kid is dead." 

Anyway, I like your post and I had a similar mortified reaction to her at the end of ADWD when she wants to murder all nobles as a social group, even the people who were willing to work with her, and even after she had achieved something good, and I still agreed with her. Yikes.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, My La Liz said:

3) Murder of a Potentially Innocent Meereen Noble

This one actually did bother me at the time. Dany literally said maybe none of you are guilty directly before having her dragons set a guy on fire and eat him. Think about that for a minute. Dany knowingly shoved a guy forward to be set on fire and eaten by dragons (while he was still on fire no less) and she admitted that he might be totally innocent of wrongdoing. Seriously? How is that okay? No, really, who does something like that?

And who is okay with someone doing something like that?

In Season 6, Varys discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were supported from outside of Mereen (Volantis, Yunkai, and Astapor), so yes those Mereenese nobles that she had imprisoned (and had fed one to her dragons) were innocent.  It was rash and misdirected revenge for Selmy's death.

The fascinated look on her face as she watched him burn and get eaten...

 

Edited by Astrotherapist

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, beeeeeen said:

There were a lot of other red flags actually. In season one she watches her brother being killed without batting an eye.. yes he was a bad person, but he was her brother, she grew up with him, she could have at least shed a tear, show an emotion, but not, she had that stare, the same stare she had everytime she killed someone, no emotion, and a slight fascination toward what was happening before her.

She could have had him imprisoned and shipped back to Illyrio in Pentos but she didn't, she let him die because he stood between her, her child and power. Then Drogo has that speech about terrorising Westeros and taking the throne and she is visibly turned on by his brutality. Its not coincidence she gives her own version of that speech to the Dothraki and repeats it after the sack of Kings Landing. Drogo would be proud and he was a monster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Astrotherapist said:

In Season 6, Varys discovered that the Sons of the Harpy were supported from outside of Mereen (Volantis, Yunkai, and Astapor), so yes those Mereenese nobles that she had imprisoned (and had fed one to her dragons) were innocent.  It was rash and misdirected revenge for Selmy's death.

The fascinated look on her face as she watched him burn and get eaten...

 

And that slaves inside Meereen were assisting for payment. Daenerys is so black and white. Masters must be evil, slaves must be good. The slave is taking the money and killing unsullied and informing the enemy. Hizdahr is the one who gets terrorised and then killed.

We don't care because we know the leaders of these great families are slavers. But imagine the leaders of the great families of westeros in that position. Dany would treat them no different. 

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

She could have had him imprisoned and shipped back to Illyrio in Pentos but she didn't, she let him die because he stood between her, her child and power. Then Drogo has that speech about terrorising Westeros and taking the throne and she is visibly turned on by his brutality. Its not coincidence she gives her own version of that speech to the Dothraki and repeats it after the sack of Kings Landing. Drogo would be proud and he was a monster

Yes, but to be honest, it's not that she let him die the big red flag to me, it's the look on her face when it happends. She looks like she's either feeling nothing, or worse, like you said about Drogo's speech, she's turned on.
For comparaison, we can see Tyrion's reaction to discovering Cersei and Jaime's bodies in the rumbles, he cries... Cersei hated him his whole life, tried to have him killed, and yet, not only he tries to save her life, but he's overflown with sadness when he realises his big sister (and of course his big brother toot) is dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, My La Liz said:

1) Mirri Maz Duur

Let’s be clear, Khal Drogo may have been hot and he was super badass, but he committed atrocities as a way of life. The Dothraki were the ultimate slavers – attacking, killing, raping, enslaving – it was literally their chosen way of life. Mirri Maz Duur was the godswife at a peaceful sheep-herding village. The Dothraki raided the village. They killed many people, they raped the women, and they enslaved all of the survivors. Dany interrupted Mirri’s fourth rape and “saved” her. Mirri had just watched her peaceful village attacked and the people she knew and loved slaughtered. She “heard children crying as the riders drove them off with their whips.” I think I can safely say that the Dothraki were Satan incarnate to her and everyone who was a victim of their violence. Did Dany try to help? Yes, she stopped the rape in progress, but that was a drop in the bucket to Mirri. Let’s put it this way, when the slaves in Essos rose up in multiple cities and killed the masters, did anyone have any concern for their noble wives who, like Dany, may not have had any control over what their husbands did? For all we know, some of the wives of the masters may have done far more to try to help the slaves being victimized by their husbands, but no one cared when they were slaughtered by the former slaves. People didn’t care because those women were profiting (willing or not) from the slavery system and were deemed guilty by association.  Just as I’m sure Mirri didn’t care about Dany because Dany was profiting from Dothraki enslaving others – she was guilty by association. Mirri was the victim of an atrocity and yet, people (including me) cheered Dany on when she burned her alive. When I look back at that situation, I am mortified by my reaction.

And before anyone says Mirri killed an innocent, unborn child, that’s not what we were shown on screen. Mirri may have deliberately worsened Khal Drogo’s infection, but Drogo straight up deserved anything she did to him. As Mirri began the magic to “save” Drogo, she very clearly and specifically told Dany to leave and that no one could enter the tent after it began because the dead would walk inside. Jorah flatly ignored this after Dany collapsed and he carried Dany right inside the tent. You want to blame someone for the death of Dany’s child? Put the blame where it belongs.

I'm still not inclined to agree on this point. You are skipping the fact that Dany did not voluntarily profit off of Dothraki brutality. She was sold to Khal Drogo, much like a slave would. Given her position and possibilities she did however voluntarily do everything in her power to help Mirri. By her actions, Mirri didn't just hurt Khal Drogo, she also hurt Dany (deceived her, stripped her of her lover and her position, allegedly caused her miscarriage). Mirri even openly enjoyed Dany's suffering in the scene afterwards. She knew Dany did everything she could for her and yet decided to hurt her and smear it in her face. This is why the audience did not see Dany's revenge as an exceptionally cruel action.

Closest real-life situation to this that I can think of is giving money to a homeless person, just to have them slap you for not giving enough. And then laugh at your tears. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dokivi said:

I'm still not inclined to agree on this point. You are skipping the fact that Dany did not voluntarily profit off of Dothraki brutality. She was sold to Khal Drogo, much like a slave would. Given her position and possibilities she did however voluntarily do everything in her power to help Mirri. By her actions, Mirri didn't just hurt Khal Drogo, she also hurt Dany (deceived her, stripped her of her lover and her position, allegedly caused her miscarriage). Mirri even openly enjoyed Dany's suffering in the scene afterwards. She knew Dany did everything she could for her and yet decided to hurt her and smear it in her face. This is why the audience did not see Dany's revenge as an exceptionally cruel action.

Closest real-life situation to this that I can think of is giving money to a homeless person, just to have them slap you for not giving enough. And then laugh at your tears. ;) 

If you look at the second point I made, Dany herself did not care to distinguish between the Meereenese nobles who were actually guilty of crimes and the Meereenese nobles who were involuntarily profiting from the slavery system. If indirect guilt makes it permissible for Dany to crucify 163 human beings, how can Mirri deserve to be burned alive for killing only the individual most directly responsible for her suffering? Khal Drogo commanded the raid on Mirri's village and only Khal Drogo died as a result of Mirri's actions. Are you suggesting that Mirri should have forgiven the atrocities committed by the Dothraki because Dany stopped her fourth rape and did not let her continue to be raped? Drogo didn't deserve to be punished and should have been allowed to continue murdering, raping, and enslaving in order to avoid hurting Dany? Dany, who was literally cooing over Drogo's boo-boo and calling him her moon and stars in front of Mirri.

Let's extend your real-life situation. My boyfriend attacks a group of homeless people and kills some of them, rapes some of them, and is in the process of selling the rest into sex trafficking. I am openly adoring of my boyfriend and don't say one word about his actions to him. I realize I can save one of the homeless people because my boyfriend just loves me so much. So I help the injured person up and tell them I will get them out of there safely. Homeless person sees the opportunity to kill my boyfriend and chooses to do so not only because of what he did to them, but also to stop him from doing it to more homeless people. I have the right to be outraged? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, My La Liz said:

2) Mass Crucifixion of the Meereen Nobles

At the time, while I realized Dany’s actions were brutal, all I could think of was how outrageously cruel the crucifixion of children was. Looking back… I’m American. What if someone decided to punish me for the crimes of the US government on the grounds of me being complicit because I didn’t abandon my life and try to stage a revolution? What about Hizdahr’s father who spoke out against the crucifixion of the children? He did not succeed in stopping it, but he tried.

Your analogy is flawed.

A more fitting analogy would be that the US Congress decided to crucify a bunch of children. Some members of Congress spoke and voted against, but ultimately decided to accept the decision. An invading power arrests all members of Congress and decides to punish them for their evil ways by crucifying the most powerful of them. Regardless of how they voted. But not anyone in their employ, nor anyone who had voted for them.

As an aside, as far as I remember, we only have Hizdahr's word that his father spoke out. And I do not remember anyone reporting that Hizdahr's father took any actual action. Even though he was one of the most powerful nobles in the city, and an atrocity was being carried out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, My La Liz said:

If you look at the second point I made, Dany herself did not care to distinguish between the Meereenese nobles who were actually guilty of crimes and the Meereenese nobles who were involuntarily profiting from the slavery system. If indirect guilt makes it permissible for Dany to crucify 163 human beings, how can Mirri deserve to be burned alive for killing only the individual most directly responsible for her suffering? Khal Drogo commanded the raid on Mirri's village and only Khal Drogo died as a result of Mirri's actions. Are you suggesting that Mirri should have forgiven the atrocities committed by the Dothraki because Dany stopped her fourth rape and did not let her continue to be raped? Drogo didn't deserve to be punished and should have been allowed to continue murdering, raping, and enslaving in order to avoid hurting Dany? Dany, who was literally cooing over Drogo's boo-boo and calling him her moon and stars in front of Mirri.

Let's extend your real-life situation. My boyfriend attacks a group of homeless people and kills some of them, rapes some of them, and is in the process of selling the rest into sex trafficking. I am openly adoring of my boyfriend and don't say one word about his actions to him. I realize I can save one of the homeless people because my boyfriend just loves me so much. So I help the injured person up and tell them I will get them out of there safely. Homeless person sees the opportunity to kill my boyfriend and chooses to do so not only because of what he did to them, but also to stop him from doing it to more homeless people. I have the right to be outraged? 

 

The Meereenese nobles i think have nothing to do with this. Frankly, they consciously and willingly participated in the oppression and murder of innocent people. Dany, as I said, has been sold and forced into participating in Dothraki atrocities. For all we have seen in the show, she was a rape victim, who developed feelings for the perpetrator.

You are also omitting the fact that Mirri openly admits being responsible for Dany's miscarriage. I just watched the scene again to make sure. After she tells Dany what happened to her son, she says "I warned you. Only death can pay for life". In the previous scene she tricked her into thinking it was about his horse, but after it's done, she confesses.

And it wasn't my point that Mirri had no right to want Khal Drogo dead. Sure she did. To quote a certain smart man "given the opportunity, what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?". A perfect Mary Sue character might forgive people who kill her loved ones, but i think neither Mirri nor Dany were particularly cruel to take their respective revenge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dokivi said:

 

The Meereenese nobles i think have nothing to do with this. Frankly, they consciously and willingly participated in the oppression and murder of innocent people. Dany, as I said, has been sold and forced into participating in Dothraki atrocities. For all we have seen in the show, she was a rape victim, who developed feelings for the perpetrator.

You are also omitting the fact that Mirri openly admits being responsible for Dany's miscarriage. I just watched the scene again to make sure. After she tells Dany what happened to her son, she says "I warned you. Only death can pay for life". In the previous scene she tricked her into thinking it was about his horse, but after it's done, she confesses.

And it wasn't my point that Mirri had no right to want Khal Drogo dead. Sure she did. To quote a certain smart man "given the opportunity, what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?". A perfect Mary Sue character might forgive people who kill her loved ones, but i think neither Mirri nor Dany were particularly cruel to take their respective revenge.

Khal Drogo was already good as dead when she got to him. He'd take a dirty wound that looked like it would infect, so Dany was very worried and had Mirri make him a poultice to cure it. But it made him itch so he threw it away because he was an idiot who couldn't follow directions.

He of course became bacteremic with a raging fever frying his brain and went into septic shock. It was far too late to save him, at least without real magic. So Dany begged and Mirri did cure him of sepsis through magic. But by then it was too late and his mind was gone, as well as his unborn son.

He caused his own death because he couldn't follow directions meant to save him. 

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/3/2019 at 2:14 PM, My La Liz said:

3) Murder of a Potentially Innocent Meereen Noble

 

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how much that scene can be of any use as any "foreshadowingtm" of Daenerys abrupt and badly executed descend into massmurdering psychopathy.
The show had this odd habit of making characters kill random people without any consequences, rhyme or reason, often when it wouldn't even be in-character for them.
Another example is Jaime randomly strangling that Lannister cousin he is incarcerated with, something he'd never do in the Books (not a Lannister).

So I'm not sure how serious we are supposed to take that scene of Daenerys shoving that noble into the fire as opposed to the show runners just thinking it would be "KEWL" and show Dany as a "Boss Ass Bitch"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

Honestly, I'm not entirely sure how much that scene can be of any use as any "foreshadowingtm" of Daenerys abrupt and badly executed descend into massmurdering psychopathy.
The show had this odd habit of making characters kill random people without any consequences, rhyme or reason, often when it wouldn't even be in-character for them.
Another example is Jaime randomly strangling that Lannister cousin he is incarcerated with, something he'd never do in the Books (not a Lannister).

So I'm not sure how serious we are supposed to take that scene of Daenerys shoving that noble into the fire as opposed to the show runners just thinking it would be "KEWL" and show Dany as a "Boss Ass Bitch"

They do have him mention it to Brienne and they allude to it in the beetle speech, the word for cousin killing. He knows what he did was awful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/5/2019 at 5:53 AM, Dokivi said:

The Meereenese nobles i think have nothing to do with this. Frankly, they consciously and willingly participated in the oppression and murder of innocent people. Dany, as I said, has been sold and forced into participating in Dothraki atrocities. For all we have seen in the show, she was a rape victim, who developed feelings for the perpetrator.

 

Even if not all the crucified Meereenese nobles were guilty of the 163 crucified children, they were surely guilty of a host of other evils. Slavers bay has been the center of Slavery since forever. They are the ones who buy off pirates, raiders etc. and then tortured the new slaves into pliant laborers ready for auction to free cities. . 

Off course, there could be kind slave owners or slave owner wives who treated those under them humanly. But these type of people probably existed in Free Cities not Slavers Bay. 

All Meereen  nobles were slavers, they didn't just own them, the made them, and all slavers have whipped, tortured and executed-you cannot stay in that business without doing so, and that business in more or less the only business in Meereen. Thus, the people Daenerys crucified all have probably done a laundry list of evil. The fact they were not completely swept away by the freed slaves is already a miracle. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Br16 said:

Even if not all the crucified Meereenese nobles were guilty of the 163 crucified children, they were surely guilty of a host of other evils. Slavers bay has been the center of Slavery since forever. They are the ones who buy off pirates, raiders etc. and then tortured the new slaves into pliant laborers ready for auction to free cities. . 

Off course, there could be kind slave owners or slave owner wives who treated those under them humanly. But these type of people probably existed in Free Cities not Slavers Bay. 

All Meereen  nobles were slavers, they didn't just own them, the made them, and all slavers have whipped, tortured and executed-you cannot stay in that business without doing so, and that business in more or less the only business in Meereen. Thus, the people Daenerys crucified all have probably done a laundry list of evil. The fact they were not completely swept away by the freed slaves is already a miracle. 

 

 

The show deliberately blurred this though with the slave who wanted to be sold back into slavery because the family he lived with treated him better than the slaves who terrorised him. 

If she was executing them for these myriad suspected crimes then she should have held trials. Its not enough to assign guilt without proof. That is like saying 'he looks a bit murdery'. If Daenerys wanted to kill slavers for being slavers she should have killed the whole slaving class. She didn't, she offered amnesty to bring stability to Meereen. You can't do that and always keep perceived crimes in your back pocket to excuse all future actions. That is just bad leadership. You aren't true to your word, why should anyone be loyal to you if you can turn on them at any minute?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/5/2019 at 7:30 PM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

They do have him mention it to Brienne and they allude to it in the beetle speech, the word for cousin killing. He knows what he did was awful.

And still it's wildly out of character for Jaime (at least Book Jaime, not Larry) and it went unmentioned for 7 seasons, so....

Plus, by the time they mentioned it they had already assassinated his character several times over. And the whole series.

Edited by Orphalesion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are several red flags, wayy from book 1. Daenerys is furious at Mirri for killing Drogo and her child, yet never realize that her desire to conquer Westeros was the reason hundreds of women in the Nazare village lost their husbands and children. She has a blind spot for the pain her actions cause to people. Sometimes she can only see the pain caused by other monsters. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×