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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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41 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I never said that Sansa and Jon are compatible, just that they have the potential to be compatible based on their complementary skills and shared ideals. It's silly to assume that Jon would treat Sansa the same as Ygritte.

Well, then it's silly to assume Jon would treat Sansa good. If we cannot base his behavior off of past behavior then we are just shooting in the dark no? 

 

42 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

They were strangers

Much like Sansa & Jon. They are not actually strangers, no. But they had very little interest in each other before they separated & now have or will have changed so much they will be virtually strangers. 

43 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

and even as they got closer Jon always made sure to keep her at a certain distance because at the end of the day he was using her to cover his identity and a spy.

Wouldn't he be, at the end of the day, just using Sansa as a means to the North then? 

I disagree with this. Jon had real feelings for Ygritte that he did not prioritize over his oath to the NW. But that's not the same as using her. 

44 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa on the other hand is, as far as he knows, his little sister

Agreed & since there is no history of incest between the two this makes it even less likely that he will develop sudden romantic feelings for her, no? 

45 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Just because it's pseudo incest will not stop GRRM from getting them together.

Agreed. The same as just because Sandor was semi-abusive to Sansa will not stop him from putting them together. 

There are a couple reasons why I think GRRM won't put them together. He has Jaime & Cersei together to show repeatedly that incest is taboo, foul, & generally not accepted. I don't think for one second the North-folk will accept an incestual team as their Lord & Lady. Also, as you have stated, he originally planned to have Arya & Jon together. He scratched that idea for a reason & even let us in on it. I think if he were going to write Jon with one of his siblings he would have stuck with his original idea &/or not gave the idea away if he were going to do the same thing but with a different sister. 

 

49 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

It's very likely that GRRM gave that storyline to Sansa, because there's a lot of foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa getting together romantically. 

I don't think it is very likely. In fact I don't think it's even remotely likely. 

I think more than foreshadowing a romantic relationship between Jon & Sansa your quotes show Jon & Sansa have more in common than they think. It is possibly foreshadowing a sibling relationship between them, maybe one in which they have to work together to rule the North but even that I'm skeptical of. 

If though, this is romantic foreshadowing for Jon & Sansa, what do you say to all the romantic foreshadowing between Sandor & Sansa? 

53 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Sansa has been foreshadowed to become queen multiple times & Jon has been foreshadowed as king multiple times.

I don't think Jon has been foreshadowed to be a King, I think we are being shown Jon is a king. As the son of Lyanna & Rhaegar he would be the rightful King, at least according to the Targaryen Dynasty. 

I don't know that I've seen much foreshadowing for Sansa to be a Queen either, but maybe it's there. She wanted to be Queen, but I think after she comes through all of this that will have lost all appeal to her - except maybe Queen in the North. 

 

57 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

GRRM did say that at it's core value ASOIAF is about glory returning to a certain house and since he has stressed over and over again that the Starks are the heart and heroes of this series, it's safe the assume that a Stark restoration will happen. Like I said before of all the Starks Jon and Sansa are the only ones who want children. Father and motherhood are strong themes in both of their narratives. 

But how does this equate they have to have children with each other? As far as we know Jon will never be allowed to father children & it's been a while since I've read the books but I would definitely be interested in all the quotes that show Jon wanting children. 

There can be a Stark restoration & they can both have children - with other people. My brother & I both wanted kids growing up but we didn't have them with each other. I understand it's not the same thing as in Westeros but the Westerosi don't seem very fond of incest either. 

 

59 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Thematically it would also make sense. Westeros was torn apart because of a Targaryen/Stark union (Rhaegar/Lyanna) and naturally it needs to be healed by another Stark/Targaryen union (Jon/Sansa).

We probably will have a Stark/Targaryen union in Dany & Jon. Jon is much more Stark than he will ever be Targaryen. 

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26 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I feel like you should really just open your own thread about why Jon and Sansa are perfect for each other and maybe also why Sansa and Sandor aren't.... because it's actually really not the topic here.... and maybe some ppl still would want to discuss the topic -just a suggestion.

Right now Jon is literally inside a direwolf, so...not surprised he keeps coming up. He's also a better man than any of the others she has encountered. He may act like a know it all little shit sometimes but honestly, her family is her best for protection, whether Jon, Arya, or even Bran. 

And yes Dontos lied and Garlan is a black box, ect. I know the flaws. But they show kindness and try to cheer her up and do take steps to show concern. That's why I said "maybe" but damn...the pickings are slim. The Hound is right in there with other failures, just a humorless chore who thinks scaring and threatening a 13 year old is fine behavior. Overall, I think the books do have a moral for how to treat women and Sam slays them all. Not surprising since he's a GRRM self-insert. If I was a character in ASOIAF and I didnt want to be beaten, mocked, groped, threatened, or emotionally abused, Sam is my best bet.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

And yes Dontos lied and Garlan is a black box, I know the flaws. But they show kindness and try to cheer her up and do take steps to show concern. That's why I said "maybe" but damn...the pickings are slim. The Hound is right in there with other failures, just a humorless chore who thinks scaring and threatening a 13 year old is fine behavior. Overall, I think the books do have a moral for how to treat women and Sam slays them all. Not surprising since he's a GRRM self-insert. If I was a character in ASOIAF and I didnt want to be beaten, mocked, groped, threatened, or emotionally abused, Sam is my best bet.

They show concern to manipulate her. You value kindness over honesty, but you don't know, if Sansa does. She thinks rather positively of the Hound, after he leaves. And replays his words often in her head, because imo she knows he's been telling the truth and it can be useful to her. She doesn't replay Tyrion's words or her father's or mother's, because they were never particularly honest with her.

Knowing only lies makes it easy for others to take advantage of you, knowing the truth (even if presented in a harsh way) is always better, because it leaves the choice up to you. And I think Sansa has recognized that.

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36 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right now Jon is literally inside a direwolf, so...not surprised he keeps coming up. He's also a better man than any of the others she has encountered. He may act like a know it all little shit sometimes but honestly, her family is her best protection, whether Jon, Arya, or even Bran. 

Nobody adresses, what Jon did to Gilly. Imo this was beyond cruel. She wanted to escape Craster to save her son and Jon, just takes him away from her, with a great likelihood, that he might end up being killed. I dunno for me that's just beyond heartless.

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12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Coping mechanisms can obscure inappropriate behavior too. It's unhelpful if women don't know when men cross a line, when they actually have. Just the first step of actually identifying bad behavior and naming it is a struggle, in a culture that excuses and silences so much. But at least Sansa remembers that he MADE her do something and that he THREATENED TO KILL HER. That's a start. Learning how men have violated her autonomy is important right now, since she is in the dark about a lot.

? I meant it was potentially good (depending on what you see as good) in the sense that it signifies that she could be a player. Sansa's manipulation of her memories is quite similar to what LF does. 

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Okay, psychopath...is that better? This "great quality" has fucked up their heads to the point where one attempts to murder a kid and the other does it professionally. All that killing which they enjoy makes them dangerous to innocent people and I dont mean in a bad boy kinky way. I wouldnt trust Jaime or Sandor to protect Sansa.

Neither of them are psychopaths. Psychopaths have no ability to feel empathy at all, which is clearly not true of Jaime or Sandor. The indisputable psychopaths of ASOIAF are Gregor, Ramsay, Roose, etc tier characters. You don't need to be a psychopath to be a bad person. And yes, both of them are bad people, but so what? You think GRRM would build up these complex, morally grey characters and then not have them interact with the "good guys" at all, because some "Sansa stans" don't trust them to protect Sansa (as if that's the point of the story)? Where's the dramatic tension in that? 

12 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Brienne is the only knight worthy of that role, so I will even argue with you there. The Hound is not Sansa's new direwolf, he lost that chance, and failed to respect her at many points. 

He "lost that chance?" Obviously I can't say until the books come out, but I would be willing to bet money that Sansa and Sandor meet again. This is a relationship that was introduced in Sansa's very first chapter. I'm of the opinion that all relationships set up in book one will have some sort of payoff (that includes not only Sansa-Sandor, but also Jon-Arya, Jon-Tyrion, Sansa-Cersei, Jaime-Cersei, etc) because that's how good stories work, and unlike D&D George is a good writer. You build something up, you have to pay it off.

As it happens, I think the logical conclusion to his arc is that he ends up as Sansa's "dog" in the same way he was Joffrey's dog (so in a platonic way). That was set up with the "get her a dog" thing from Robert.

6 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

I admit I made a huge assumption in my last reply, but based on Jon's personality it's fair to assume that he would not treat Sansa so awfully like Sandor does. Based on the trajectory of Sansa's narrative, the foreshadowing in her chapters, the basic outline we got from the show, and the complimentary skills of both of them it's highly likely that Jon and Sansa will work together to reclaim Winterfell in TWOW. Since Jon would never ever overstep his boundaries when it comes to the inheritance of the Starks, he would of course value the input of Sansa and listen to her. To assume otherwise is to disregard who Jon is. 

I thought the general consensus was that Stannis would reclaim Winterfell in TWOW. Sansa still has a lot of stuff to do in the Vale, plus there's the whole fAegon situation throwing a wrench into LF's plans (full disclosure: I think Sansa will at least temporarily marry fAegon). Sansa's whole arc has been building towards her being a player in the "game of thrones," and the game has never been more complicated than it is at the end of ADWD. Why would George catapult her out of that situation now? 

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I never said that Sansa and Jon are compatible, just that they have the potential to be compatible based on their complementary skills and shared ideals. It's silly to assume that Jon would treat Sansa the same as Ygritte. They were strangers and even as they got closer Jon always made sure to keep her at a certain distance because at the end of the day he was using her to cover his identity and a spy. Sansa on the other hand is, as far as he knows, his little sister, he would treat her different even as they were not so close. Just because it's pseudo incest will not stop GRRM from getting them together. After all in the original outline of ASOIAF Jon was supposed to end up with Arya. It's very likely that GRRM gave that storyline to Sansa, because there's a lot of foreshadowing of Jon and Sansa getting together romantically. 

Ok, I'm gonna stop you right there. Foreshadowing what now?? Again, all of this sounds like a huge reach. Waymar Royce as a stand-in for Jon? Want to point that GRRM quote out to me, because to me Waymar's description reads like the standard "Northern look" (plus, if you want to go that far with grey eyes, Sandor also has grey eyes lol). 

The "Sansa's heroes" things is even more ridiculous. If you go by that logic, then Sansa calling out for Florian the Fool means that she secretly wanted to bang Robb. And just because they both want children, doesn't mean they will have them with each other!

3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Lyanna<3RhaegarSansa has been foreshadowed to become queen multiple times & Jon has been foreshadowed as king multiple times. Their historical counterparts from War of the Roses (Elizabeth of York and Henry VII) were not only cousins but they got married and ushered in a golden age. Based on that it's reasonable to believe that a marriage between Jon & Sansa could usher in a golden age for the Starks. GRRM did say that at it's core value ASOIAF is about glory returning to a certain house and since he has stressed over and over again that the Starks are the heart and heroes of this series, it's safe the assume that a Stark restoration will happen. Like I said before of all the Starks Jon and Sansa are the only ones who want children. Father and motherhood are strong themes in both of their narratives. 

 Thematically it would also make sense. Westeros was torn apart because of a Targaryen/Stark union (Rhaegar/Lyanna) and naturally it needs to be healed by another Stark/Targaryen union (Jon/Sansa).

You mentioned the trajectory of the show earlier. If this 'fated' sibling romance was meant to happen, then why was it never even hinted at in the show? What the show actually suggests will happen is Jon/Dany. We already know that Jon will not become king, so that foreshadowing is bunk right off the top. 

D&D would never miss the chance to include more sibling incest. They apparently loved Jaime and Cersei so much that they changed Jaime's story completely to portray the twincest in a romantic light. If Sansa and Jon were meant to end the story as king and queen of Westeros the D-boys would've jumped at the chance. 

Edited by aromaticanalysis

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10 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I didn't think Tyrion was so nice... he made it seem like they were both equally victims in this scenario. Sorry, but this annoyed.   ...He got to choose.

This one has been done forever on here.   I won't dance the full cha cha with you because arguing it at length just takes us in a circle and feels like sports talk radio, like we're just barking for barking's sake.  But I will say that when these families set a marriage for their children they inform the kids of the engagement and the kids' role is to comply.  They don't defy the parent and proudly disinherit themselves, striking out on the road to become a beggar rather than marry as instructed.  They marry as instructed.  So he didn't have a choice in putting her through that, Tywin did. 

 Kanye says 200+ years of slavery starts to look like it was a choice.  Well....  in an academic sense, maybe.  Everybody could have offed themselves.  But that's not a choice in the serious sense.  Not when the goal is to survive the injustice, to succeed in spite of an unjust world.   And Tyr was drunk as all bang for the consumation because he really didn't want to be there.  You can read that as a lack of empathy, obviously many do.  What's on the page doesn't lead to that conclusion.   Massive awkwardness reads as empathy.  Their suffering wasn't equal, you reminded me.   Okay?    That was quite clear.    His major suffering came outside the marriage, and so too with her.   In part because he did as little as possible to add to her suffering inside the marriage.   He was more in control than her?   Um.  Again yes.  His family was conquering hers.   Did he feel in control because of that?  No.  Did I need to include the disclaimer that this wasn't an ideal situation?    

 

9 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

No one questions whether Sandor or Tyrion are compatible with her or what they will talk about. Can we please hold them all to the same standard? 

Sorry.  :dunno:.    Conversation would come easier with Jon than in her more strained relationships with Sandor and Tyrion.   Better?   

They could say things like, "But you're my sister!"    "STEP-sister.  Relax.  Marillion, start playing the porn music softly in the background!"     "No!  Don't touch that kazoo, Marillion, or so help me...    Sansa, we're more than step siblings in the sense that we are in fact blood related."

I suppose the reason for mentioning Jon and Sansa wouldn't click is because unlike an arranged marriage theirs would be a same-clan union of choice and convenience, something closer to marrying for love.   So it becomes relevant that they didn't get along very well.   So if it's going to be for love, without the power benefits of an arranged marriage, why not go all the way with it and marry someone you really do love?   Eh.  Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic.

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Nobody adresses, what Jon did to Gilly. Imo this was beyond cruel. She wanted to escape Craster to save her son and Jon, just takes him away from her, with a great likelihood, that he might end up being killed. I dunno for me that's just beyond heartless.

Certainly it is cruel. He does bad things for the greater good. 

Sansa's tale is similar to Goldilocks. This bowl of porridge is too hot, cold, ect. 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

They show concern to manipulate her. You value kindness over honesty, but you don't know, if Sansa does. She thinks rather positively of the Hound, after he leaves. And replays his words often in her head, because imo she knows he's been telling the truth and it can be useful to her. She doesn't replay Tyrion's words or her father's or mother's, because they were never particularly honest with her.

Knowing only lies makes it easy for others to take advantage of you, knowing the truth (even if presented in a harsh way) is always better, because it leaves the choice up to you. And I think Sansa has recognized that.

He did not leave choices up to her. He forced her to do something for him. He stalked her. His methods are not useful when he is mocking her for her courtesy which is her goddamn armor. 

She is looking for a bodyguard. I wouldn't call any thoughts about him positive when her options are zero to nil. Any man would good look good in comparison. Again, Brienne is the only one worthy.

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5 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

GRRM did say that at it's core value ASOIAF is about glory returning to a certain house and since he has stressed over and over again that the Starks are the heart and heroes of this series, it's safe the assume that a Stark restoration will happen.

I love this summary, it encapsulates so much of what the series is about. Jon/Sansa is a very intriguing pairing in that context, and because they slot into Ned/Cat's roles so well and because they both started out with the same delusions of grandeur, and because Jon has a parentage reveal that changes their relationship from siblings to cousins, and is a frog prince trope. In fact, Alys Karstark was very Sansa-ish and my eyes lit up in those scenes between Jon and Alys. It doesn't have to be canon for me to still ship it, and I'm sure Jon and Sansa will be major, powerful players together in the future. Once Sansa has protection she will really start helping Jon play the game. Whether he will listen is another matter, but I can just read fan fic to get my ideal scenarios realized.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Certainly it is cruel. He does bad things for the greater good. 

Sansa's tale is similar to Goldilocks. This bowl of porridge is too hot, cold, ect. 

He did not leave choices up to her. He forced her to do something for him. He stalked her. His methods are not useful when he is mocking her for her courtesy which is her goddamn armor. 

She is looking for a bodyguard. I wouldn't call any thoughts about him positive when her options are zero to nil. Any man would good look good in comparison. Again, Brienne is the only one worthy.

So how do you know Jon won't be cruel to Sansa one day?

And you don't know, that Sandor stalked her. except when he was sitting in her room of course- and yeah we all agree, that was beyond fucked up.

And I am not saying Sandor left choices up to her, even though he didn't force her to come with him in the end.

The truth, by its nature, gives you more the opportunity to chose, because you know all your options, is what I'm saying.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And you don't know, that Sandor stalked her. except when he was sitting in her room of course- and yeah we all agree, that was beyond fucked up.

These passages look stalkerish:

Quote

“She was racing headlong down the serpentine steps when a man lurched out of a hidden doorway. Sansa caromed into him and lost her balance. Iron fingers caught her by the wrist before she could fall, and a deep voice rasped at her.”

Lurching out of a hidden doorway sounds like he was waiting for her. This could just be an chance incident but then there is this incident later - 

Quote

“Turning back to the stair, Sansa climbed...

She is alone.

Quote

Down by the Mud Gate, outlined against the drifting smoke, she could make out the vague shape of the three huge catapults, the biggest anyone had ever seen, overtopping the walls by a good twenty feet. Yet none of it made her feel less fearful. A stab went through her, so sharp that Sansa sobbed and clutched at her belly. She might have fallen, but a shadow moved suddenly, and strong fingers grabbed her arm and steadied her.
She grabbed a merlon for support, her fingers scrabbling at the rough stone. “Let go of me,” she cried. “Let go.”

He just appears out of nowhere. Then later, he's waiting for her in her bed. Three times is a pattern.

22 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So how do you know Jon won't be cruel to Sansa one day?

It's true, I don't know if he would hold a sword to her throat and talk about how knights are for killing. I don't know if he would ever put a hand over her mouth and tell her, "If you scream, I'll kill you."  I don't know if he would ever take a dagger to her throat and say "Sing for your little life." There's just a lot we don't know about Jon post-resurrection. He could turn into a psychopath just like the Hound. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

These passages look stalkerish:

Lurching out of a hidden doorway sounds like he was waiting for her. This could just be an chance incident but then there is this incident later - 

She is alone.

He just appears out of nowhere. Then later, he's waiting for her in her bed. Three times is a pattern.

They live in the same place. One time she was outside, when she normally wouldn't have been. And the other time he was already on the roof. And maybe he just didn't want to talk to her, but then she almost fell so he caught her.

-so just your interpretation

bedroom- we all agree on but then again, he was a deserter and wanted to take her with him. He could hardly just  wait in front her bedroom. But it turned into something messed up- we all know that 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
content, spelling

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2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

These passages look stalkerish:

Lurching out of a hidden doorway sounds like he was waiting for her. This could just be an chance incident but then there is this incident later - 

She is alone.

He just appears out of nowhere. Then later, he's waiting for her in her bed. Three times is a pattern.

It's true, I don't know if he would hold a sword to her throat and talk about how knights are for killing. I don't know if he would ever put a hand over her mouth and tell her, "If you scream, I'll kill you."  I don't know if he would ever take a dagger to her throat and say "Sing for your little life." There's just a lot we don't know about Jon post-resurrection. He could turn into a psychopath just like the Hound. 

@aromaticanalysis and me have stated  above what a psychopath is and no Sandor is still not one

and glad that you acknowledge that we don't know how jon would treat sansa, if he'd even like her or she him, before or after resurrection 

Edited by Nagini's Neville
phrasing

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On 10/23/2019 at 9:26 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

And you don't know, that Sandor stalked her. except when he was sitting in her room of course- and yeah we all agree, that was beyond fucked up.

There's another explanation (there's always another explanation).

Sandor had been fighting all day in more fire than he'd ever imagined before. He's exhausted. He's incredibly wildfire-shellshocked. He's broken in spirit. He has no plans, no hope.

His immediate needs (as he sees it) are to get extremely drunk and then to find a hiding place. It's not Sansa he needs, but her room, where no-one will look for him, and no-one will come in except Sansa herself, and she won't betray him.

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23 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

These passages look stalkerish:

Lurching out of a hidden doorway sounds like he was waiting for her. This could just be an chance incident but then there is this incident later - 

She is alone.

He just appears out of nowhere. Then later, he's waiting for her in her bed. Three times is a pattern.

He's not a stalker, he's an elite bodyguard, the best that Lannister gold can buy. It's no surprise Joff's girl is a person of interest; that's just part of the job.

And he correctly detects something wrong with Sansa. She has only to think of a death leap with Joff, and Sandor blocks her. After that the questions start, do you want to kill us both, it's a long fall down the serpentine, does the little bird think she has wings? And he grabs at her really fast when she seems in danger of falling.

So what is he thinking? It's not hard to guess. Her father murdered before her eyes, her people butchered, a present and future with Joff and the Kingsguard. He thinks she was ready to end it all that day on the parapet, and maybe still is.

(Also he's the dog that replaces Lady, so obviously ...)

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