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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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On 9/26/2019 at 6:49 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

If it's psychological it can't be "magical"

I think it could be both, maybe. Put it this way, if GRRM is planning some surprising twist following from the Unkiss, then he can't, he won't, give it all away to some random questioner. So he points out the psychology angle, and hides the rest.

On 9/26/2019 at 6:49 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Two scene always struck me as odd though and always made me wonder...

Me too! What I notice is that the Sansa-Hound dynamic is well-described and everything fits. It just works. He gives her his life-story, and it's as powerful as anything she heard from Old Nan. And he watches as evil bastard Joffrey tries and fails to break her. So they have a connection, even though it's usually life-as-a-song crashing into life-as-hell.

The Sansa-Ilyn dynamic is not explained at all, and it's very, very weird and dark. He's not uglier than the Hound, and he doesn't personally threaten her, but she reacts in terror like he's literally undead. She has nightmares about him constantly, I don't think they ever stop. If there's magic, I think it might be here.

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16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The Sansa-Ilyn dynamic is not explained at all, and it's very, very weird and dark. He's not uglier than the Hound, and he doesn't personally threaten her, but she reacts in terror like he's literally undead. She has nightmares about him constantly, I don't think they ever stop. If there's magic, I think it might be here.

I think her first "reaction" to him is just foreshadowing. A hunch, that something horrible is going to happen, before it actually occurs is a common used tool in literature. And weirdly enough people even report that happening IRL. He'll be the one who will execute her father. And afterwards it's understandable, he triggers that traumatic event for her, whenever she sees him. And her nightmares are symptoms from that trauma.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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16 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think it could be both, maybe. Put it this way, if GRRM is planning some surprising twist following from the Unkiss, then he can't, he won't, give it all away to some random questioner. So he points out the psychology angle, and hides the rest.

Hm, I don't know... I really can't see, how the reason for the Unkiss could be both :dunno:  I mean, if she really has that memory ( meaning she truly remembers it like something that really happened) and the reason for that is magical, how can it still be psychological? 

Still thinking about that night from time to time wouldn't be out of the ordinary on a psychological level, since it was very ugh... eventful?! (traumatic,frightening, confusing... a lot to process there)

But I definitely think there could still be a magical connection between them, just that the reason for the Unkiss is either or imho. But maybe you can explain what you mean? Maybe I just don't get it :huh::blush:

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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She's not warging Sandor.  Sansa being the only Stark without a wolf will die in winter.  The others get a second chance to live as a real pack of wolves. 

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7 hours ago, Unit A2 said:

She's not warging Sandor.  Sansa being the only Stark without a wolf will die in winter.  The others get a second chance to live as a real pack of wolves. 

Has your magic snow globe shown you this? :lol:

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On 6/3/2019 at 10:57 AM, Hugorfonics said:

"Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

I doubt this is foreshadowing because there's just too much wrong with who is saying it and the content of what he's saying for it to qualify.

"turn on your girl the same way the other did on my son":

1. A direwolf wouldn't turn on a Stark

2. A direwolf was protecting a Stark and a commoner from a bully

3. Joffrey deserved it

4. Joffrey isn't his son

This idiot has no idea what would make Sansa happy. 

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26 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I doubt this is foreshadowing because there's just too much wrong with who is saying it and the content of what he's saying for it to qualify.

Well, I don't think foreshadowing means the person, who says something, that could be foreshadowing future events, has prophetic vision or is particularly wise. (especially because he is talking about a real dog here, there's a difference between symbolic meaning and literal meaning within a story) It's just for the reader and the source of foreshadowing could be literally anything. I think a lot of people think this sentence could be foreshadowing, because it gets supported by the continuing association between Lady and the Hound. 

 

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36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, I don't think foreshadowing means the person, who says something, that could be foreshadowing future events, has prophetic vision or is particularly wise. (especially because he is talking about a real dog here, there's a difference between symbolic meaning and literal meaning within a story) It's just for the reader and the source of foreshadowing could be literally anything. I think a lot of people think this sentence could be foreshadowing, because it gets supported by the continuing association between Lady and the Hound. 

It's true that foreshadowing can come in a lot of different forms, but I think it's clear that Sansa wishes she had Lady around and that a dog is no substitute. So Robert is wrong about that. If push comes to shove she'd rather have Lady alive and well.

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It's true that foreshadowing can come in a lot of different forms, but I think it's clear that Sansa wishes she had Lady around and that a dog is no substitute. So Robert is wrong about that. If push comes to shove she'd rather have Lady alive and well.

:agree: Robert is a drunk asshole. Can never forgive everyone, who was involved in Lady's killing:angry2:

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1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

:agree: Robert is a drunk asshole. Can never forgive everyone, who was involved in Lady's killing:angry2:

Right? Dude...grow a spine. He's trying to justify his lack of convictions. What a loser.

It's a radical statement, but Sansa is still a Stark.

Robert is wrong about what's best for her, the Lannisters are wrong despite trying to make her a Lannister, and LF is wrong by trying to make her Alayne.

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2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right? Dude...grow a spine. He's trying to justify his lack of convictions. What a loser.

It's a radical statement, but Sansa is still a Stark.

Robert is wrong about what's best for her, the Lannisters are wrong despite trying to make her a Lannister, and LF is wrong by trying to make her Alayne.

Robert is a weak king, who is just lazy and doesn't want to get in trouble with his wife. He knows she'll hold it against him longterm and I think he is kind of afraid of her and the Lannisters. He doesn't really care about the direwolf or about Sansa's feelings so he just throws Cersei a bone (oh, all the wolf/dog stuff :lol:) to shut her up.

I'm also really upset with Ned about it!!!:angry2:

Of course she is a Stark!! Really don't understand people questioning her "Starkness". A mystery to me. She even built Winterfell. What is she supposed to do walking around all day moping: "Oh, Winterfell, oh mom, dad, oh North.. oh Lady...wolfes.." I don't know :dunno::lol:... tbh I think for some people it's never enough no matter what she does.

The most admirable thing is, that even after all the bs she has been through, she still has her good heart and hasn't gone crazy or cruel. She is pretty strong and resilient for her to still be the way she is and I can't wait for her to recognize her strength and capabilities more :) 

She has the capability of empathy and that's a highly underestimated strength not only in this world, but also IRL. If she learns how to use that the right way and with the right people it could be a great asset.

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On 9/28/2019 at 11:11 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

This idiot has no idea what would make Sansa happy. 

"Perhaps so, Your Grace." Whitebeard paused a moment. "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."

On 9/28/2019 at 12:39 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

:agree: Robert is a drunk asshole. Can never forgive everyone, who was involved in Lady's killing:angry2:

Lady didnt to anything!!

Buuut... At the end of the day Im not what you would call an animal lover, sure I didnt want Lady to die cuz why would I, but my sympathy is with Sansa. And obviously Mycah. 

Quote

Sandor moaned, and she rolled onto her side to look at him. She had left his name out too, she realized. Why had she done that? She tried to think of Mycah, but it was hard to remember what he'd looked like. She hadn't known him long. All he ever did was play at swords with me.

How depressing is that?

On 9/28/2019 at 12:48 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right? Dude...grow a spine. He's trying to justify his lack of convictions. What a loser.

Roberts soft. Neds softer

 

On 9/28/2019 at 1:18 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

The most admirable thing is, that even after all the bs she has been through, she still has her good heart and hasn't gone crazy or cruel. She is pretty strong and resilient for her to still be the way she is and I can't wait for her to recognize her strength and capabilities more :) 

She has the capability of empathy and that's a highly underestimated strength not only in this world, but also IRL. If she learns how to use that the right way and with the right people it could be a great asset.

She has some cruel streaks to her, specifically when it comes to her thoughts on Smallfolk and the wellbeing of her Cousin

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8 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

She has some cruel streaks to her, specifically when it comes to her thoughts on Smallfolk and the wellbeing of her Cousin

Nah, i wouldn't call that cruel at all. What cruel thoughts does she have about the smallfolk? I mean they were trying to pull her of her horse and rape her, that was really traumatic. And she is just realizing that now they are cheering Margaery and asks herself, what she did, that made them hate her. 

And the thing with sweetrobin, we don't really know enough about it to judge yet. She is in a high pressure situation. 

But of course she is not completely morally white. That would make her not human. Every single person has some not so nice thoughts, but I wouldn't call that cruel streaks. Someone with cruel streaks is someone like cersei or tyrion to me

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On 9/30/2019 at 12:55 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Nah, i wouldn't call that cruel at all. What cruel thoughts does she have about the smallfolk? I mean they were trying to pull her of her horse and rape her, that was really traumatic. And she is just realizing that now they are cheering Margaery and asks herself, what she did, that made them hate her. 

Word. Thats not really cruel. But its not really empathy or signs of a good heart either. More like a healthy feudalistic view of peasants.

She carries certain airs to her, as if shes too good for this world, like early in the series when she marvels at Arya looking for rubies with smallfolk instead of lunch with the queen. 

Whats striking too is her negative view on bastards, as witnessed by her disgust at being named Stone. Sure most nobleborn are snobs (though her husband anxiously took a bastards name) but with Stark its perplexing.

Arya and Bran often think of Jon and at times tried to find him, similarly Robb thought of him enough to trust him with his kingdoms and Rickon threw a fit. In contrast Sansa thinks little of her "bastard half brother" and when made aware of Jons position and location doesn't even think of seeking him out.

None of this is that extreme, however when put into context with the story she invented about Arya being a bastard, well it borderlines cruel. Thats not a way to think of your sister, nor your half brother. 

On 9/30/2019 at 12:55 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

And the thing with sweetrobin, we don't really know enough about it to judge yet. She is in a high pressure situation. 

We know as much as she does, which is that hes being poisoned and the Harry scheme can only come into fruition with Robert dead.

Sansas in an extremely high pressure situation and Im not sure what her correct next move should be, but I know its not kinslaying.

On 9/30/2019 at 12:55 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

But of course she is not completely morally white. That would make her not human. Every single person has some not so nice thoughts, but I wouldn't call that cruel streaks. Someone with cruel streaks is someone like cersei or tyrion to me

I wouldnt call Tyrion cruel, though I agree hes not completely morally white, but hes more simlar to his wife then his sister. 

But yea, compared to Rickon the cannibal, Bran the puppet master or Arya the murderer, Sansas doing ok for a Stark.

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1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. Thats not really cruel. But its not really empathy or signs of a good heart either. More like a healthy feudalistic view of peasants.

She carries certain airs to her, as if shes too good for this world, like early in the series when she marvels at Arya looking for rubies with smallfolk instead of lunch with the queen. 

So would you disagree with my statement, that she generally speaking has a good heart? I totally don't disagree with the fact, that she is a snob at the beginning of the series. And has little understanding of what life is like for smallfolk etc. And thinks of herself as a little princess and has all those big dreams and plans. But she is raised to be that way and it is encouraged and praised, as you write yourself, all noble people are snobs with little understanding for or interest in what it's like for smallfolk. The gods made them "better", then the smallfolk. (Jaime also thinks Sansa's life would be easier, if she just married a Blacksmith and he is an adult) I can forgive all that, because I think it is very normal at that age to be very self-centered and having problems with thinking outside your box- regarding all the things that don't concern you and your little world. Arya is the same, just in a different way. That doesn't mean she is always kind, empathetic and considerate. But as the series continues, there are more moments, where she is exactly all that, then there are not. Even though she is abused constantly. She could also become very angry and cruel, telling herself to only look out for herself from now on and take advantage of people whenever she can, but she doesn't. 

The way she treats the hound and Dontos (and she also saves the woman with the dead baby during the riot) show, that she doesn't generally look down on people, who don't have her status (she also thinks highly of Lothor Brune and doesn't show any signs of disliking Mya Stone)

She warns Margery, saves Lancel there are so many other examples, that show she has a really good heart ( If you want me to I list them all ;))

And she also doesn't take Loras not being interested in her badly or as if she is entitled to his affection. She is pretty hard on herself actually in that scene. So I definitely don't think she carries herself, as if shes too good for this world. Especially after enduring all the beatings and humiliation, her self-esteem is pretty low (thinking of herself as stupid, not trusting her instincts). In the beginning of the series a little bit, yes, but that was not because of cruelty, but because of self-centeredness and ignorance all due to her age.

And the thing with Arya and even Jon (even though it might be a bit different in his case) ; I've never understood, why people take that so seriously. Dunno if you have siblings?, but I would say that is completely normal between siblings.  Me and my brother fought way worse wars and we still love each other and neither one of us is thinking we did something terrible to each other, when we were children.

I think George did the Arya-Sansa relationship brilliantly. That's very normal for sisters, who are so close in age and so different to act and feel towards each other this way.

And she was never really close with Jon (they lived in 2 different worlds), she has been taught this status mind set and her mother doesn't want him in winterfell.

But I'm sure, if Jon suddenly started opening up to Sansa, about how horrible he is feeling, how hard it is for him to be a bastard and not being accepted, she would have felt for him the way she felt for the hound and would have tried to comfort him. 

I'm not saying she is always empathetic- that would make her a very unrealistic 11-13. I'm just saying she has a lot more empathy for a broad range of people, than most people in the series. Which is remarkable to me given what she has been through. That's all :)

 

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wouldnt call Tyrion cruel, though I agree hes not completely morally white, but hes more simlar to his wife then his sister. 

Someone, who murders his former employee in cold-blood, with that person having no possibility to defend themselves and them never owing them anything in the first place and who rapes a slave girl has definitely a very cruel streak to put it lightly. 

There are other examples- he can be very ruthless and when you're crossing him, he can become cruel quickly. 

And then there is this thing with Tysha, where nobody really knows what really happened...

Imo Tyrion is very dark grey leaning towards black and in no way comparable to someone like Sansa.

Of course he can be also empathetic and kind, but that's not his only side.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

 We know as much as she does, which is that hes being poisoned and the Harry scheme can only come into fruition with Robert dead.

Well, she had to bring him down. And she had to hurry. What would you have done in her stead? If he were to shake on the mule, he might have fallen. And she learns about the Harry thing only at the end of that chapter. There is no way for us to know, what she will do in the future and how much she will be able to do against LF. But I have no doubt, that her morality will be tested in the future

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Sandor = Sansa's direwolf

Sandor = Sansa's dog

Sandor = Sansa's Door

Perhaps the Moon Door ... someone is flying out of that tower, or two ...

Yes. And no. And yes. And no ...

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On 10/1/2019 at 6:57 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, she had to bring him down. And she had to hurry. What would you have done in her stead? If he were to shake on the mule, he might have fallen. And she learns about the Harry thing only at the end of that chapter. There is no way for us to know, what she will do in the future and how much she will be able to do against LF. But I have no doubt, that her morality will be tested in the future

Ok, so there is. Alayne I in TWOW was leaked a few years back. (Its really great) Without spoiling too greatly, she does not seem to be in any hurry saving Robert.

On 10/1/2019 at 6:27 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

So would you disagree with my statement, that she generally speaking has a good heart? I totally don't disagree with the fact, that she is a snob at the beginning of the series. And has little understanding of what life is like for smallfolk etc. And thinks of herself as a little princess and has all those big dreams and plans. But she is raised to be that way and it is encouraged and praised, as you write yourself, all noble people are snobs with little understanding for or interest in what it's like for smallfolk. The gods made them "better", then the smallfolk. (Jaime also thinks Sansa's life would be easier, if she just married a Blacksmith and he is an adult) I can forgive all that, because I think it is very normal at that age to be very self-centered and having problems with thinking outside your box- regarding all the things that don't concern you and your little world. Arya is the same, just in a different way. That doesn't mean she is always kind, empathetic and considerate. But as the series continues, there are more moments, where she is exactly all that, then there are not. Even though she is abused constantly. She could also become very angry and cruel, telling herself to only look out for herself from now on and take advantage of people whenever she can, but she doesn't. 

The way she treats the hound and Dontos (and she also saves the woman with the dead baby during the riot) show, that she doesn't generally look down on people, who don't have her status (she also thinks highly of Lothor Brune and doesn't show any signs of disliking Mya Stone)

She warns Margery, saves Lancel there are so many other examples, that show she has a really good heart ( If you want me to I list them all ;))

And she also doesn't take Loras not being interested in her badly or as if she is entitled to his affection. She is pretty hard on herself actually in that scene. So I definitely don't think she carries herself, as if shes too good for this world. Especially after enduring all the beatings and humiliation, her self-esteem is pretty low (thinking of herself as stupid, not trusting her instincts). In the beginning of the series a little bit, yes, but that was not because of cruelty, but because of self-centeredness and ignorance all due to her age.

I would not disagree, generaly speaking the Stark kids (at least the 3 (4) of em) have a good heart. Which shouldnt be surprising, Ned raised them. 

The way I see it, Sansas gone from believing in fairy tales to learning the dynamics of most traits in Westeros feudalism with a healthy dose of vengeance. Shes ready to play the game. And as her husband noted, this is not a game for the Eddard Starks.

Winter is coming, ya know? Time for the wolf to show its fangs

Ps. Where does it say that the gods made noblemen better?

On 10/1/2019 at 6:27 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

And the thing with Arya and even Jon (even though it might be a bit different in his case) ; I've never understood, why people take that so seriously. Dunno if you have siblings?, but I would say that is completely normal between siblings.  Me and my brother fought way worse wars and we still love each other and neither one of us is thinking we did something terrible to each other, when we were children.

I think George did the Arya-Sansa relationship brilliantly. That's very normal for sisters, who are so close in age and so different to act and feel towards each other this way.

Yea I got a brother. Love him. We fight a decent amount, I know how it is. 

The thing is neither of the girls did anything terrible with Lady. Its all just misdirected anger. Arya understands that, because her father explained it to her, but is still upset about it. Sansa... I want the sisters to forgive each other, Im skeptical.

On 10/1/2019 at 6:27 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

And she was never really close with Jon (they lived in 2 different worlds), she has been taught this status mind set and her mother doesn't want him in winterfell.

But I'm sure, if Jon suddenly started opening up to Sansa, about how horrible he is feeling, how hard it is for him to be a bastard and not being accepted, she would have felt for him the way she felt for the hound and would have tried to comfort him. 

I'm not saying she is always empathetic- that would make her a very unrealistic 11-13. I'm just saying she has a lot more empathy for a broad range of people, than most people in the series. Which is remarkable to me given what she has been through. That's all :)

Diffrent status yes. But, still something, no? Like Rickon didnt understand why Jon had to leave but neither him nor Bran were happy. Robb, imo, married Jeyne thinking of the hardships of Jon. The guys their brother. All of them, every single one has a strong tie to Snow, except Sansa.

I got a cousin (love him, fight decently lol) hes adopted, but like thats my close family, 100%. Never thought diffrent. 

But Sansa...

Quote

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

Thats pretty fucked up. But excusable because it's childish. Yet for her to be so aghast at being a Stone, years later after learning some of game of thrones. 

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Posted (edited)
On 10/1/2019 at 6:47 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Someone, who murders his former employee in cold-blood, with that person having no possibility to defend themselves and them never owing them anything in the first place and who rapes a slave girl has definitely a very cruel streak to put it lightly. 

There are other examples- he can be very ruthless and when you're crossing him, he can become cruel quickly. 

And then there is this thing with Tysha, where nobody really knows what really happened...

Imo Tyrion is very dark grey leaning towards black and in no way comparable to someone like Sansa.

Of course he can be also empathetic and kind, but that's not his only side.

Former employer, you mean his father? (And he did owe him, Tyrion saved his city)  Yea double 1st degree murder on your dad and ex isnt a great showing of your good heart. But, as far as murder goes, its not pre meditated (well, not Shae. Tywin probably once he grabbed the first ladder step) and uh they were kinda asking for it lol.

And alright, he was drunk and went to a brothel. Afterwards he noticed she was a doped up slave when he begged her to kill or arrest him, when she didn't he fucked her again. Its not great. I wouldn't call it cruel though or any other heavier words. 

I believe Tyrions story with Tysha, it reflects what Jaime said. Sounds like two dumb teenagers in love, nothing wrong there. 

Tyrion like his wife want to be loved. Tyrion for the most part has good intentions, even when hes given up on the world he saves Penny who tried to kill him and Jorah who kidnapped him (and Cat when she kidnapped him), this wasnt to scheme it was to save lives. 

Ill say that when Tyrion reflected on traveling to Dorne he felt ashamed on how thatd impact his niece. Sansa on the other hand has yet to feel remorse for her actions. 

 

Eta.

Oh former employee lol sorry. Who? Silvertounge? He blackmailed him.

Eta2

Oh Shae? Lol employee, lol that's fucked up.

Edited by Hugorfonics

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