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Is the hound Sansa's 'new direwolf'?

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On 9/27/2019 at 10:20 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, I don't know... I really can't see, how the reason for the Unkiss could be both :dunno:  I mean, if she really has that memory ( meaning she truly remembers it like something that really happened) and the reason for that is magical, how can it still be psychological? 

Nothing subtle - I was only thinking that the psychology side is a given; it doesn't go away even if new explanations appear. It's just how she experienced the event at the time.

The non-magical angle is pretty good, anyway. Cersei has already primed Sansa to expect a sex attack from a battle-crazed soldier, so Sansa's reaction to the not-a-kiss makes total sense. And much later, she sort of weaves the incident into her world of song and story. It's very Sansa.

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She's often trying to make unromantic, terrifying, or dangerous situations lighter and more happy than they already are, so I think the reality of the situation is that whatever Sandor wanted to do, it was actually unromantic, terrifying, and dangerous. And I dont mean "dangerous" in a bad boy kinky way like some SanSan's see it. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 9/30/2019 at 5:31 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Roberts soft. Neds softer

This. What Ned did was unforgiveable.

Robert - not so much. I mean, as a king and a father, the decision to kill Lady was good:

  • Joffrey can't be left alone half a day with a Stark girl without provoking a direwolf to bite him.
  • Lady is big and scary enough to face off Ilyn and the Hound simultaneously. She looked so serious that both Barristan and Renly came running to assist.
  • As it turned out, none of the direwolves grew up to be 'safe' pets, exactly. Ask Luwin. Ask Tyrion.
On 10/1/2019 at 9:09 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I wouldnt call Tyrion cruel, though I agree hes not completely morally white, but hes more simlar to his wife then his sister. 

He's not sadistic, if that's what you mean; I don't think he gets a kick out of seeing people suffer. But sometimes he just forgets that other people suffer, or he doesn't care, or he thinks his agenda is that much more important:

  • Repeatedly sending the Hound out into a firestorm, 'forgetting' his fear of fire
  • Planning revenge on Lysa by burning the Vale (this is real, he wanted to discuss the plan with Tywin)
  • He is relieved not to have to rape Tommen (to teach Cersei a lesson). He is a monster - no normal person could think like that.

Actually, I think his green eye is what he shares with Cersei. A green eye for hunger, and a black eye for rage, I think it says somewhere. Looks like his compassionate side (genuine) doesn't show up in eyes.

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10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's often trying to make unromantic, terrifying, or dangerous situations lighter and more happy than they already are, so I think the reality of the situation is that whatever Sandor wanted to do, it was actually unromantic, terrifying, and dangerous. And I dont mean "dangerous" in a bad boy kinky way like some SanSan's see it. 

Yeah, Sandor was extremely unstable, aggressive, out-of-control. On balance though, I don't think he ever intended a rape or even a kiss. The song he asked for and got was words and a tune. That's all.

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1 minute ago, Springwatch said:

Yeah, Sandor was extremely unstable, aggressive, out-of-control. On balance though, I don't think he ever intended a rape or even a kiss. The song he asked for and got was words and a tune. That's all.

“They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too...He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide...The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well.” - Brienne V, AFFC

He could have done anything, that was why it was dangerous. Just wanting a song softens the situation again.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She's often trying to make unromantic, terrifying, or dangerous situations lighter and more happy than they already are, so I think the reality of the situation is that whatever Sandor wanted to do, it was actually unromantic, terrifying, and dangerous. And I dont mean "dangerous" in a bad boy kinky way like some SanSan's see it. 

Hm, that's very interesting. I've heard that before. But what is another moment where she does that? Of course the hound is very violent, no question about that. But what is another moment, when she is turning something traumatic into something romantic? Normally she reacts to traumatic experiences differently Joffery, Payne, the riot: she has nightmares and thinks about those in horror. 

I think with the hound it's a mixture- it's not so clear. I was very surprised, that she thought about him so positively after he was gone. And she also never forgets, that he threatened to kill her. She just isn't as upset about it, as you'd expect her to be.

Tbh does adding the kiss, but otherwise leaving the scene as it was, really even make it more romantic? Imo that would make it worse. 

No question that IRL, she'd likely have trauma (or trauma induced symptoms) for that experience, but I think in that case GRRM just decided, that she wouldn't have one. It's a story after all and the characters, even though for the main part, crafted very well, don't always react/behave psychologically completely realistically. He has done the same thing with Danny before, she also never showed any symptoms from her time with Drogo, even though that's highly unlikely IRL.

I was always under the impression, that Sansa actually always had a very good understanding, when it came to Sandor's nature, but for some reason still thinks quite positively about him. 

Whenever she was interacting with him, she always showed a high instinct of self preservation and caution and rejection, whenever he became violent (basically most of the time), but still whenever she thought about him she acknowledged the complexity of his character, showed him empathy and didn't judge him as harshly as he probably would have deserved. 

But yeah, it will be interesting to see, if it stays that way. Would be interesting to see how she reacts, when they see each other again.

Does the fact, that he threatened to kill her 3 time and put a blade against her throat twice will play a bigger role in the future (or will become a bigger problem) or will GRRM just sweep it under the rug?

I don't think that Sansa has forgotten about it (since she never edits it out other memory of the Blackwater) but will it suddenly play a bigger role, when she sees him again?

I also just think it's modeled after the Beauty and the Beast- I know ppl don't want to hear about that/or don't take it seriously, which probably has to do with the fact, that not everybody is so familiar with the original fairytale- and that inherently is kinda a story about abuse or at least has strong abusive elements to it in the beginning of the story.

The threat of being killed by the beast looms over the beauty from the beginning, since the beast tells her father, he is going to kill him, unless one of his daughters is willing to die for him. So she goes to his castle believing she is going to die.

It's not in every version exactly like that, but in a lot of them.

 

 

 

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If we want to speculate that Sansa will get herself a new dire-wolf, recall that there is a spare dire-wolf hanging around the Riverlands.

That would be Arya's direwolf, of course.  Most fans are looking forward to the reunion of Arya and Nymeria.  But Arya is in the process of losing her Stark identity - of becoming "No-one".  It is unclear where that plot thread is going or if it will ever reverse itself.  If it never reverses itself, then Sansa is a Stark without a direwolf, and Nymeria is a direwolf without a Stark.

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7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

If we want to speculate that Sansa will get herself a new dire-wolf, recall that there is a spare dire-wolf hanging around the Riverlands.

That would be Arya's direwolf, of course.  Most fans are looking forward to the reunion of Arya and Nymeria.  But Arya is in the process of losing her Stark identity - of becoming "No-one".  It is unclear where that plot thread is going or if it will ever reverse itself.  If it never reverses itself, then Sansa is a Stark without a direwolf, and Nymeria is a direwolf without a Stark.

I kinda hope that won't happen, since I really want Sansa and Arya to become close and form a bond and if Sansa just takes over Nymeria I feel like that could never happen. Seems like a violation somehow.

And I don't know, if Nymeria would ever take on Sansa and vice versa. I don't think it's just so simple. It probably would feel wrong for the both of them.

And I don't know if it would cool to just "replace" Lady. She was the one, who was supposed to be Sansa's and I think her loss is supposed to be felt. 

But maybe she could get another animal at some point, would be cool

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2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I kinda hope that won't happen, since I really want Sansa and Arya to become close and form a bond and if Sansa just takes over Nymeria I feel like that could never happen. Seems like a violation somehow.

Whether this feels right, when it happens, will depend on the setup and payoff.

Imagine if, as part of the setup, Arya encounters Nymeria on her return to Westeros, and Nymeria rejects her.  One cannot "steal" something one does not own.  But that's just an example.  Other elements of setup could help this feel right when it happens.  Sansa already seems to be getting in touch with her inner wolf.  There could be more such foreshadowings.  Sansa could start having wolf-dreams.

Also, Nymeria and her wolf army may be set up to have significance in a climactic encounter.  Such a surprise will be all the more unexpected if Arya is unavailable.   If Sansa and Nymeria unexpectedly save the day at some critical moment, I'm not sure how many readers will be in a mood to sympathize with "You stole my direwolf" recriminations.

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And I don't know, if Nymeria would ever take on Sansa and vice versa.

Well sure.  Presumably, only George knows that.

Quote

And I don't know if it would cool to just "replace" Lady. She was the one, who was supposed to be Sansa's and I think her loss is supposed to be felt. 

You've lost me here.  One does not even mourn husbands this long.

But there are alternatives.  Perhaps there is another character, who has never had a dire-wolf yet, who is not who we or she think she is, but who needs to get in touch with her secret, unknown, Stark-heritage.  Three mounts shall you ride.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Whether this feels right, when it happens, will depend on the setup and payoff.

Imagine if, as part of the setup, Arya encounters Nymeria on her return to Westeros, and Nymeria rejects her.  One cannot "steal" something one does not own.  But that's just an example.  Other elements of setup could help this feel right when it happens.

Also, Nymeria and her wolf army may be set up to have significance in a climactic encounter.  Such an intervention will be all the more unexpected if Arya is unavailable.  Sansa already seems to be getting in touch with her inner wolf.  With more foreshadowing and setup, this could make sense when it happens, and still be a surprise.

Well sure.  Presumably, only George knows that.

You've lost me here.  One does not even mourn husbands this long.

But there are alternatives.  Perhaps there is another character, who has never had a dire-wolf yet, who is not who we or she think she is, but who needs to get in touch with her secret, unknown, Stark-heritage.  Three mounts shall you ride.

Hm, I guess I don't totally dislike this idea :)

What I meant with "you can not replace Lady" is that I kinda don't think it's very GRRM to do this, the same way that Bran won't get back his working legs or Jaime his hand or Tyrion his nose... 

He takes something away from the characters and lets them live with that loss, and lets it influence their personality and who they become. And I would say most ppl grieve longer than two years for a loved one. For most ppl the grieving process is an on-going thing throughout their lives. Doesn't mean you are incapable of living and loving other ppl after a certain time.

So you think Nymeria would suddenly become totally tame and well-behaved? :unsure: I definitely hope Arya won't stay No-one forever! 

And Dany is a secret Stark? ;) Never heard that before :D

 

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10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This. What Ned did was unforgiveable.

Robert - not so much. I mean, as a king and a father, the decision to kill Lady was good:

  • Joffrey can't be left alone half a day with a Stark girl without provoking a direwolf to bite him.
  • Lady is big and scary enough to face off Ilyn and the Hound simultaneously. She looked so serious that both Barristan and Renly came running to assist.
  • As it turned out, none of the direwolves grew up to be 'safe' pets, exactly. Ask Luwin. Ask Tyrion.

Unforgivable, all of them, Ned Robert Cersei. That weak display of the kings justice saw Mycha die.

But in regards to Lady, just send her back north. Throw rocks like Jory, but alas Robert and Ned were too soft.

And im pretty sure the Hound could defeat Lady by himself.

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

He's not sadistic, if that's what you mean;

Probably not. But if a doctor diagnosed him as such I wouldn't argue. 

Hes got major ptsd and a thirst for vengeance that would make Stoneheart flinch. So thats not great, but its a long road until hes back West and the vengeance may subside

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think he gets a kick out of seeing people suffer. But sometimes he just forgets that other people suffer, or he doesn't care, or he thinks his agenda is that much more important:

Aside from smiling while feading Nurse, certainly not. 

But, no, I disagree. He saves Jorah, his enemy, out of impulse. When he arrived in KL to rule it was to bring justice which by and large he did. 

Who doesnt think their agenda is the most important? 

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 

  • Repeatedly sending the Hound out into a firestorm, 'forgetting' his fear of fire
  • Planning revenge on Lysa by burning the Vale (this is real, he wanted to discuss the plan with Tywin)
  • He is relieved not to have to rape Tommen (to teach Cersei a lesson). He is a monster - no normal person could think like that.

KL was under attack, the gate being axed by the enemy. Sandor totally punked out and Tyrion was 100% in his right to admonish Sandor and the rest of his cowardly army.

The Vale stopped paying taxes and didnt send any aid to KL, while the Mountain Men shed blood for Joff to return to their caves. Lysa meanwhile was in severe need of vengeance and justice. She murdered the Hand and used her authority to blackmail Tyrion all for the benefit of civil war.

Lol, Im pretty sure that was a joke. Besides I really doubt he would have went through with that

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Actually, I think his green eye is what he shares with Cersei. A green eye for hunger, and a black eye for rage, I think it says somewhere. Looks like his compassionate side (genuine) doesn't show up in eyes.

Word, maybe. But probably its just a mutated gene and the same as normal eyes

Edited by Hugorfonics

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On 10/5/2019 at 9:05 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, that's very interesting. I've heard that before. But what is another moment where she does that? Of course the hound is very violent, no question about that. But what is another moment, when she is turning something traumatic into something romantic? Normally she reacts to traumatic experiences differently Joffery, Payne, the riot: she has nightmares and thinks about those in horror. 

True. And she doesn't try to turn any of these dramas into a song or story - it's just the Hound, and only the Hound, even though he can be terrifying too, and his beliefs are toxic. She doesn't even daydream about positive things like beautiful Loras, or Beric, or Highgarden. The Lady-Hound link has to be important.

On 10/5/2019 at 9:05 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

But yeah, it will be interesting to see, if it stays that way. Would be interesting to see how she reacts, when they see each other again.

Does the fact, that he threatened to kill her 3 time and put a blade against her throat twice will play a bigger role in the future (or will become a bigger problem) or will GRRM just sweep it under the rug?

Interesting, definitely. Dogs hate wolves. Wolves hate dogs. I feel replacing Lady with the Hound fits closely with the idea of trying to make a Sansa a Lannister, which could be a good thing in terms of building bridges and making a peace eventually. And the wolf-pack will reunite, but I'm expecting a hostile reunion at first, simply through lack of recognition.

On 10/5/2019 at 9:05 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I also just think it's modeled after the Beauty and the Beast- I know ppl don't want to hear about that/or don't take it seriously, which probably has to do with the fact, that not everybody is so familiar with the original fairytale- and that inherently is kinda a story about abuse or at least has strong abusive elements to it in the beginning of the story.

The threat of being killed by the beast looms over the beauty from the beginning, since the beast tells her father, he is going to kill him, unless one of his daughters is willing to die for him. So she goes to his castle believing she is going to die.

It's not in every version exactly like that, but in a lot of them.

I agree. (There's been some good posts on this topic, might still be available.)

But also there are other couples that might be categorised as Beauty + Beast: Dany and Jorah, Jaime and Brienne, perhaps others, maybe Arianne and Hotah. The bond is love in every case, but romance is not getting a foothold anywhere.

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On 10/6/2019 at 3:19 AM, Hugorfonics said:

Unforgivable, all of them, Ned Robert Cersei. That weak display of the kings justice saw Mycha die.

The only weak bit was putting the entire blame on Cersei. But Robert knew, he knew, he really got it - 'a direwolf is a savage beast'. I mean, finally, someone got it. Give that man a prize.

Mycah was dead already - he had no more chance of surviving Lannister rage than did little baby Barra, the whore's daughter. Mycah got a mercy killing, it could have been so much worse.

Quote

But in regards to Lady, just send her back north. Throw rocks like Jory, but alas Robert and Ned were too soft.

And im pretty sure the Hound could defeat Lady by himself.

Yes and yes.

Quote

Probably not. But if a doctor diagnosed him as such I wouldn't argue. 

Hes got major ptsd and a thirst for vengeance that would make Stoneheart flinch. So thats not great, but its a long road until hes back West and the vengeance may subside

Hope so too.

Quote

KL was under attack, the gate being axed by the enemy. Sandor totally punked out and Tyrion was 100% in his right to admonish Sandor and the rest of his cowardly army.

I don't know, there's something odd here. Everyone knows Sandor has fire phobia. Thoros chased him round a melee with a flaming sword. If that's not memorable enough, there are the huge and hideous facial scars which would be enough of a clue for most people. But not for Tyrion who forgets twice - once at the fires after the bread riots, and again at his personal field of fire at the Blackwater. It's not a question of balancing necessity (and obviously Sandor is going to break disastrously at some point) - it just doesn't cross Tyrion's mind.

I think he loves fire nearly as much as Cersei does. His reaction to the wildfire hellzone he created at the Blackwater is: A terrible beauty. Like dragonfire.

Fire is beautiful. Why would anyone be afraid?

Quote

The Vale stopped paying taxes and didnt send any aid to KL, while the Mountain Men shed blood for Joff to return to their caves. Lysa meanwhile was in severe need of vengeance and justice. She murdered the Hand and used her authority to blackmail Tyrion all for the benefit of civil war.

Another war crime - bringing death and destruction to an entire population to get revenge on one woman.

Quote

Lol, Im pretty sure that was a joke. Besides I really doubt he would have went through with that

I don't see it in the text. If a joke, what has he to feel relieved about? But correct, you can't condemn a man for something he hasn't done yet.

Edited by Springwatch
word

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5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The only weak bit was putting the entire blame on Cersei.

For Ned, for sure, more of it should have gone to Robert. Sansa put it on Arya while Arya put it on Sansa. Seemingly no one put it on Joff.

Which I kinda agree with, at least the trial part. Joff was, like Sansa, a drunk child going threw some traumatic shit and then having to retell the experience days later. Its only natural his storys missing the truth.

(Before the trial though he was a little shit and Sansa wasnt helping, though, drunk children. )

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

 But Robert knew, he knew, he really got it - 'a direwolf is a savage beast'. I mean, finally, someone got it. Give that man a prize.

Lol

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Mycah was dead already - he had no more chance of surviving Lannister rage than did little baby Barra, the whore's daughter. Mycah got a mercy killing, it could have been so much worse.

Woah. I mean, things can always get worse. But should they?

No, Mycha did not get a mercy killing he was brutally slaughtered as he ran for his life, a healthy young adventurous child.

Cersei used her connections to discreetly murder Barra using Slynt and his cronies. Mycha was cut in half in front of the kings entire camp. Tyrion insinuated that Janos will go to the Wall to answer for the crime of Barra. However no one is getting in trouble for Mycha. 

Quote

"The girl has named you a murderer. Do you deny killing this butcher's boy, Mycah?"

The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

"Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?" Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.

"I heard it from the royal lips. It's not my place to question princes." Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. "This one's own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert."

Joffrey had legality on his side, legality derived from Roberts justice.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't know, there's something odd here. Everyone knows Sandor has fire phobia. Thoros chased him round a melee with a flaming sword. If that's not memorable enough, there are the huge and hideous facial scars which would be enough of a clue for most people. But not for Tyrion who forgets twice - once at the fires after the bread riots, and again at his personal field of fire at the Blackwater. It's not a question of balancing necessity (and obviously Sandor is going to break disastrously at some point) - it just doesn't cross Tyrion's mind.

Tyrion did forget during Blackwater, when he remembers he tries again. Like, its do or die. 4th and inches. Enemy literally at the fucking gate. What are they paying this man for?

During the bread riots Sandor faced his fear and lept into the fire, because you know, SanSan. Perhaps Tyrion thought hed want to save Sansas city, instead of turning tail to hear a song about God or whatever. Lol, oh SanSan

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think he loves fire nearly as much as Cersei does. His reaction to the wildfire hellzone he created at the Blackwater is: A terrible beauty. Like dragonfire.

Fire is beautiful. Why would anyone be afraid?

Hes a little off, for sure. I mean fire does look cool and everyone likes admiring their work, but, yea, peculiar. 

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Another war crime - bringing death and destruction to an entire population to get revenge on one woman.

(What was his first war crime?)As I said, its not really revenge, its justice. She grossly broke the law, people shouldn't just get away with that. 

And, thats war. Ser Duncan the Tall calls it a pissing contest. Every great lord is guilty of that, except coincidentally Lysa (and Edmure).

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't see it in the text. If a joke, what has he to feel relieved about? But correct, you can't condemn a man for something he hasn't done yet.

I tried to look over the text (half ass looked) and couldn't find the thought process that I remembered. He does tell Bronn hes glad he cant scourge Tommen, so not rape but still pretty dark. Judging by that and his thoughts it does seem to be in earnest. However he later tells his father, about said event, that a threat can be as powerful as a blow and then says how he wouldn't strike Tommen. 

So, who the hell knows lol. Its dark, Ill give it to you. Still incomparable to his sister though. 

Edited by Hugorfonics

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On 10/5/2019 at 10:05 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

Hm, that's very interesting. I've heard that before. But what is another moment where she does that? Of course the hound is very violent, no question about that. But what is another moment, when she is turning something traumatic into something romantic? Normally she reacts to traumatic experiences differently Joffery, Payne, the riot: she has nightmares and thinks about those in horror.

No need to look for other examples. There is a difference between the Hound and the others you mentioned. The Hound was her protector and also trying to be somewhat of a teacher by opening her eyes to the brutality of reality. I've always seen the un-kiss as her coping mechanism to downplay the actual trauma when he attacked her. She romanticized their encounter as a survival technique rather than keep the memory of what actually happened. Otherwise her faith in the goodness of anyone would be completely shattered. That even this guys, who has all the issues in the world but who protected her, helped her...is just the same as everyone else (aka the people who hurt her).

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First of it's debatable whether Sandor is Sansa's 'direwolf'. Even though he did physically save her once or twice it doesn't nullify the bad things he did to her: Calling her stupid, mocking her belief in the gods and her ideals and roughly manhandling her multiple times. He hardly behaves like a protector towards Sansa like some fans like to believe. As for his endgame. I do think he will come back in the upcoming books. I even have a feeling he will be there during the highly possible showdown between Cersei and Sansa in ADOS. Perhaps we will finally see a fight between Sandor and dead!Gregor. I for one believe that he will eventually die protecting Sansa. After this is one of his most iconic lines: "A dog will die for you, but never lie to you." Perhaps he will do it. That is, in my opinion, the only way he can truly redeemed. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

First of it's debatable whether Sandor is Sansa's 'direwolf'. Even though he did physically save her once or twice it doesn't nullify the bad things he did to her: Calling her stupid, mocking her belief in the gods and her ideals and roughly manhandling her multiple times. He hardly behaves like a protector towards Sansa like some fans like to believe. As for his endgame. I do think he will come back in the upcoming books. I even have a feeling he will be there during the highly possible showdown between Cersei and Sansa in ADOS. Perhaps we will finally see a fight between Sandor and dead!Gregor. I for one believe that he will eventually die protecting Sansa. After this is one of his most iconic lines: "A dog will die for you, but never lie to you." Perhaps he will do it. That is, in my opinion, the only way he can truly redeemed. 

 

 

Agreed he hasn't been real gentle with her but I think the reason fans see him as a protector is because in his own way he is trying to protect her when he says & does those things. He knows if she doesn't get tough & quick she isn't going to make it out alive. He is trying to open her eyes & wake her up out of the fantasy "happily ever after" land she thought she would be living in. I think the bolded says it all really. He isn't lying to her, he is trying to help her & tbh I don't think Sansa would have received the message if he hadn't been so rough with her. 

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23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed he hasn't been real gentle with her but I think the reason fans see him as a protector is because in his own way he is trying to protect her when he says & does those things. He knows if she doesn't get tough & quick she isn't going to make it out alive. He is trying to open her eyes & wake her up out of the fantasy "happily ever after" land she thought she would be living in. I think the bolded says it all really. He isn't lying to her, he is trying to help her & tbh I don't think Sansa would have received the message if he hadn't been so rough with her. 

There's a huge difference between 'waking her out of the happily ever after fantasy' and what Sandor Clegane did. What was helpful about him graphically describing Ned's death and in result triggering Samsa? Let's stop romanticizing the interactions of Sansa and Sandor and see it for what it was: he was trying to break her spirit. Sandor Clegane is very awful person if you think about it. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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48 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

There's a huge difference between 'waking her out of the happily ever after fantasy' and what Sandor Clegane did. What was helpful about him graphically describing Ned's death and in result triggering Samsa? Let's stop romanticizing the interactions of Sansa and Sandor and see it for what it was: he was trying to break her spirit. Sandor Clegane is very awful person if you think about it. 

I'm not romanticizing anything, nor am I saying Sandor is a great hero. He is not a nice, good man. He also tried to protect Sansa on numerous occasions. Both things can be & are true. 

You would have to quote the passage for me to guess at what his purpose was in the instance you describe but I wholeheartedly disagree that he was trying to break her spirit. He is trying to toughen her up. I'm not saying I agree with how he goes about it, just that he meant well, or as well as he ever means. 

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3 hours ago, Elegant Woes said:

First of it's debatable whether Sandor is Sansa's 'direwolf'. Even though he did physically save her once or twice it doesn't nullify the bad things he did to her: Calling her stupid, mocking her belief in the gods and her ideals and roughly manhandling her multiple times. He hardly behaves like a protector towards Sansa like some fans like to believe. As for his endgame. I do think he will come back in the upcoming books. I even have a feeling he will be there during the highly possible showdown between Cersei and Sansa in ADOS. Perhaps we will finally see a fight between Sandor and dead!Gregor. I for one believe that he will eventually die protecting Sansa. After this is one of his most iconic lines: "A dog will die for you, but never lie to you." Perhaps he will do it. That is, in my opinion, the only way he can truly redeemed. 

 

 

I just think he already died for her. "The Hound is dead", remember? And that's also what he says to her: "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

And if you think about it, why would "The Hound" have to die anyway, if not to be able to communicate with Sansa? He does definitely not need to change to kill UnGregor.

And what do you think all the marriage symbolism, association means? ( I'm genuinely curious!)

 

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